[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: we're going to be joined by a guy who I consider a friend of the show now, , Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, and we're going to be talking about. Do you really need to train to failure to see increases in strength and muscle mass? Tthis has been a discussion that has been in gyms around the world for decades now. And we're going to get to the bottom of bottom of it.[00:01:35] And now without further delay, get my guests here and put up my hand. Here we go. Producing the show and talking to, I just want to put this out there right now. We're talking today to the goat of muscle scientific research, Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, the greatest of all times. And I, and I, I'm not saying that lightly.

 I really do feel that way about you because, you're by far the most critical thinking guy who writes science in this area where we all want to know, how our efforts are best spent, your research is always about the truth without any kind of biases. So I commend you on that.

Welcome back to the show, Brad, how are you doing? 

[00:02:25] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:02:25] It's my pleasure Carl.

Carl Lanore: [00:02:27] This is interesting. So you guys published a study and you looked at the role of failure in the super compensation effect of training. Why this study? Is it just because it's been discussed forever and nobody has a real answer.

[00:02:46] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:02:46] I'd first to clarify it wasn't a study per se.We made an systematic meda analysis based sortof study. We took data from all previous published studies on the topic of training to failure versus not training to failure. The reason that it's probably one of, if not the most, certainly one of the most controversial topics in the field. And when there's a controversial topic, you want to do your best to try to clarify what the evidence really shows

So it's a systematic review and the main analysis is actually taking the data and then statistically analyzing them. So it's a combination. So first you need to review this studies. The systematic review is a systematic way of figuring out which studies meet the inclusion exclusion criteria.  Once you have assembled all the studies, then you carry out what we call a Meda analysis, which is basically making one big study out of a lot of smaller studies and then assess what the results are and report.

Carl Lanore: Before you endeavored this project, did you already have an opinion?

[00:04:05] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: yeah, I come from the era back in the nineties when I really started getting seriously into training and following the bodybuilding routines of my favorite bodybuilders. And just in general, the Jim lore is that. You need to train hard and it's either train hard to go home type of attitude. And not only would, uh, I, when I first was doing this train to failure, but you do drop sets.

 You do, uh, forced raps. Uh, so yeah, I came from that school now. Looking as I become an educator researcher, I'd seen some of the more recent evidence, which started to point and lead me to think maybe that was, and as, uh, as, um, true as, uh, as I had thought as a bro, you know, that the gym ward did not actually map out.

And, uh, I had a feeling that we were going to find. It probably was not as big a factor as had been thought. I was not prepared necessarily to say that it was. Virtually no factor is kind of what we found in the study with some caveats. It was Lee

[00:05:14] Carl Lanore: [00:05:14] Haney, really the first pro to kind of exemplify this is his motto was, uh, stimulate don't annihilate.

 Uh, people used to joke that, you know, Lee used very, very lightweight. He focused on the mind muscle connection. He was, uh, bought six or seven time Mr. Olympia. Uh, so he had the body. And he had the strength, but he was training differently. And I don't think his training was as sexy as like, you know, on and ed corny, you know, going to collapsing in the squats.

 And it was like, Oh, that's so heroic. Oh, there's Lee Haney. Yeah. There's Lee Haney, but he was winning competitions. Was he like the first one to kind of carve this niche?

[00:05:57] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:05:57] I hadn't thought about it, but certainly, uh, has a, the [00:06:00] stimulate don't denial, uh, is attributable to him. And I, I would guess. Yeah. Um, I never trained with the handy, so I don't know exactly what he did.

 It's always sometimes, uh, difficult to know what people do versus what they say. Uh, you know, sometimes you see film of them and you can make better judgments, uh, as you did, like pumping iron and. Dorian Yates certainly has a lot of film of him training, but in a lot of others, uh, they might not want people knowing what they're doing the secrecy, but yeah, I, it, long story short, I would say probably he, uh, he would be someone who would, uh, embody that.

[00:06:37] Carl Lanore: [00:06:37] Okay. So, um, how did you determine which would be in the, uh, end, end result analysis? What, what studies would actually be selected?

[00:06:49] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:06:49] Yeah. So when a systematic review made an analysis, you're going to have, what's called an inclusion, exclusion the criteria. And, um, it's been a little while since I went through this, uh, you know, it [00:07:00] was published now a little while ago, so it's probably been several months, four or five months since I actually looked it over.

But just from what I recall, I mean, it was. Well, certainly it was a one study. One arm of one group in this study had to train the failure versus another group that didn't train the failure. Uh, now w it was only in healthy individuals, uh, adults. We didn't include children in there. Um,

[00:07:27] Carl Lanore: [00:07:27] yeah, but they were young athletes.

Right. They weren't no old guys in it. Right.

[00:07:31] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:07:31] Uh, no, you know, there were, there were age was, uh, the worst, I think a couple of studies that did include older. Most of them were younger. Uh, most of the, the majority of them were untrained. So anyway, we then saw that analyzed. So, uh, what you do is you have these inclusions, so we didn't have like people that have knee injuries or certain injuries that would exclude, obviously that would be a confounding issue.

But, uh, we were able then to do what's called a sub analysis. So long story short here. Here's what we found, uh, [00:08:00] within that, the overall analysis, when you pooled all the studies with untrained subjects versus train subjects with men and women, with older, younger, all these things pulled as one study, no differences in strength and no differences in hypertrophy.

We then did. Uh, various what's called sub-analyses. So we would try to tease out whether older versus younger. So we'd, you can then strata, uh, stratify the results so that you're analyzing just the older and just the younger and seeing if that had an effect. It did. Um, uh, we looked at, um, volume and actually with volume, it was interesting for strength.

Uh, there was no differences when we didn't involve him was not a factor, but when volume was acquainted, uh, meaning that the, uh, in some studies you were able to do more sets to catch up the VODs who have a catch-up volume, which you're not able to do. If you're training to failure, your volume [00:09:00] load is going to be right.

The amount of weight you're gonna use so that you can do additional sets to make up for that. Right. So, uh, it was shown that, uh, the strength. Uh, favorite non-failure training, uh, when the volume was not acquainted and, uh, the one variable that had an effect on, um, I perched your fee in favor of failure.

 Training was trained versus untrained. So what we found was when we stratified just the studies that did train subjects, there was an effect, uh, that, uh, training the failure had a positive effect. Now, a couple of things, number one, the effect was relatively. Modest, right. It's called an effect size. And the effect size was what we would classify as small to trivial, trivial or small.

[00:09:46] So it's not a big effect, but it was statistically significant, which basically just means it wasn't due to chance. We'd have the ability with that said I, uh, I'd also point out though that. There [00:10:00] weren't that many studies that looked at training to failure in resistant strain subjects. So the, it actually was somewhat skewed.

] Uh, the, the ability to draw conclusions. Wasn't great. And we had to exclude a study. So one of our exclusion criteria was they couldn't have, uh, we, we did not consider studies that had both resistance training combined with aerobic training. So if the studies had an aerobic training component, we. We excluded them and were, and our thinking was, and we did this before we started analyzing.

There was before we actually did the search. The thought was is that there's evidence that, uh, it can have negative effects or in untrain subjects, positive effects and in trained subjects, it may have negative effects. Anyway, we thought this could skew the, uh, the results. Yeah. But there was one study in train subjects that had a sprint training component and showed note.

It actually showed a positive effect of not training to failure. If we hadn't [00:11:00] included that in the study, there would have been no effect. And a study came out subsequently, uh, after we published the study. So what we weren't able to include it, but it should, again, in train subjects showed no effect of failure training.

So. I'd be skeptical of that finding just to say that it really probably doesn't have much credence, uh, in it. So talk,

[00:11:23] Carl Lanore: [00:11:23] talk about the, uh, you said that the, uh, the strength, uh, in the non-failure group seemed to improve to a greater degree than the fail group is that I get that right. Did you

[00:11:35] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:11:35] say that when volume was acquainted, so, uh, unless they would do more sets to make up for the.

Lack of the volume that was not done. What is it? The

[00:11:44] Carl Lanore: [00:11:44] role of a peripheral and central nervous system and adaptation to training. And, and is that why that worked out that way? You think

[00:11:56] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:11:56] I'm not clear the question? So,

[00:11:57] Carl Lanore: [00:11:57] so, um, we know that if you go to [00:12:00] failure too frequently, right? The nervous system is more tax than that must musculature as well.

 And the nervous system doesn't seem to. Bounce back as quickly as maybe muscle does. So do you think that going to failure may hinder those who are chasing strength exclusively? Uh, because they're taxing their nervous system to such a great degree.

[00:12:21] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:12:21] Yeah, very well could be. And, uh, it also then to your point, would impair a seemingly impair recovery ability between sessions.

So not only between the sets, but if you're going to, uh, uh, challenge the neuromuscular system extremely highly, you know, very extreme taxation of the neuromuscular system. It's not well studied, but conceivably, you're not going to be able then to come back in the next session, depending upon how much recovery days would seemingly take longer to recover.

And if you're going to then have, let's say a training session within 48 hours, are you then compromised, [00:13:00] particularly if you're training with somewhat heavier loads, those are all factors we're not really clear of, but certainly from a logical standpoint, I would say that would be one suggestion as to what the issue is.

And also just the, that there does seem to be. Some effective volume load on a strength as well. Uh, bottom line is I would say with good conviction that, um, you do not need from, from the evidence that we have, that you don't need to train to failure for, uh, maximizing strength related goals. Although I would say as a, again, if you're a powerlifter, you probably would benefit.

Uh, going, doing one RMS every now and then, which has basically to failure. So, uh, taking a set to, uh, to your one RM, uh, periodically would be beneficial too. If your goal is to maximize your one RM response, then that would seem to be. He beneficial a strategy. Now I purchase a fee, like I said, is I think that I actually wrote a blog post about this, [00:14:00] and people can go to my blog, which is look great, naked.com.

[00:14:04] I have a, uh, a blog post that I wrote a few weeks ago, a month or so ago. And I talked about some of the things that really, when you look at a research study, there's a lot that we can. Don't get, uh, so research is always going to have gaps in the literature and you have to understand to be a true evidence-based practitioner.

[00:14:22] You need to understand the research and you also need to understand the gaps within the research that, uh, basically the holes where, you know, every study is a piece of a puzzle. And there, when you get a group of studies, you're going to say there are pieces in that puzzle that are not yet filled in. We have no studies that have been carried out in very high level bodybuilders and just athletes in general.

I would not discount the fact that there may be a benefit to someone who is at, is very close to his genetic ceiling in needing to go to failure occasionally to, uh, really challenged the muscle, basically to [00:15:00] challenge it beyond its capacity to, uh, Enhanced results. Another really important caveat is that in all the studies that to date that have been looked at, they either had, so they were multilevel.

I think a multiset studies. I think every one, I'm not sure whether there may have been one. To, uh, single sets, you know, like a hit high intensity training, Mike Metzger style, maybe there was one study or something, but the vast majority were multiset studies where every set was taken to failure, versus every set, not taken a failure.

 Well, that's not necessarily the way training works. It's not a binary choice. So I certainly in, in my training and when I consult with the bodybuilders. Some sets are taking a failure and some sets aren't. And the extent of that can be manipulated over a multitude of ways. Almost. I don't want to say endless, but it many different strategies for how to integrate that into a routine.

There's also the issue of heavyweights for its lightweights. There seems to be a greater need to train is closer to failure with lighter loads. Really? Oh yeah. Yeah. Uh, so again, there's really a lot that we still do not know about the topic. And I think we can have broad, uh, draw broad conclusions that generally speaking, it's not going to make a huge difference training to failure versus not trying to figure.

[00:16:25] And I think that has very important effects, uh, for the general public that, you know, some people, it might, uh, they felt they needed to train to failure. They might dismiss a de-motivator. But I also don't think we can unequivocally say that fitness training to failure is not needed if your goal is to maximize results.

Typically when I say results, hypertrophic results, and I think the jury is still out on that, but, uh, maybe it's just the bro in me that wants that to be true. But I think that that is something I [00:17:00] did. I mean, certainly there, uh, that was my confirmation bias. I'm certainly open to. Changing my opinion there too, but certainly we don't have the, uh, evidence research wise to say one way or another is because there have been no true research that has studied that.

 And in particular, in various configurations, let's say just training the last sector failure. And again, when we talked earlier, you talk about the, uh, negative effects, let's say in the neuromuscular system for recovery. There's a big difference between just doing the last set to failure on your abilities then than just doing the occasional sets.

And by the way, there's a big difference between training with let's say a multi-joint structural exercise, like the squat to failure versus doing a leg extension to failure. Uh, you know, or a, uh, let's say a bent over row, or let's say a military press versus a lateral race to failure. So it's going to be much less taxing on the neuromuscular system [00:18:00] to do the single joint exercise, particularly if you can do it in a machine where the, um, uh, degrees of freedom are limited.

[00:18:07] So these are all, again, things that need to be taken into account and, uh, It's not a binary choice. One of the things that I'm really big on my, as an educator is trying to make people aware of, uh, not. Thinking in binary terms, not it's not necessarily an either or, uh, there are lots of variations and those haven't been studied.

[00:18:28] Carl Lanore: [00:18:28] you know, you know, the other thing that I think about when I talk about failure is that the failure is very, very subjective. You know, what you think failure is. And what I think failure is, is very, very different. So if you take, uh, the average newbie, they don't realize their strength. They can't really activate.

 The nervous system, they can't get the noise out of their head. They're afraid. And author Jones, um, did this with a [00:19:00] minster maybe, or with, uh, another guy who was the guy that, uh, they, they, he, they whittled them down and then built them back up again, you know?

[00:19:08] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:19:08] Yeah, I do. Well, it wasn't for your co it was, um, It'll

[00:19:12] Carl Lanore: [00:19:12] come to me, it'll come to me probably during the commercial break, but you know, he, his big complaint about people that he was training was they think they're going to failure, but they're not.

And he would push them. And what about the fact that failure means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Some people going to failure that really probably have another two reps, but they just don't want to go there.

[00:19:33] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:19:33] Yeah. So, uh, you could say volitional failure versus true failure. And sometimes they're different.

[00:19:39] Volitional would just be where someone says I've had enough and I quit. Uh, if you put a gun to someone's head and say, you know what, if you don't keep going and I'm going to blow your brains out, usually they're going to be, get another rep now. It's uh, I think more the cases, the weight start becoming lighter, where the fatigue is more, a peripheral [00:20:00] versus central.

 Like if you're doing a two RM three RM, uh, you're stuck that way to stuck to you when you have a gun to, you know, look, I just can't get another where the fatigue is more peripheral where it's. Uh, based upon lactic acid buildup, uh, peripherally in the muscles, uh, you probably can squeeze out another repor two or more, and yeah, and that is going to be specific to the individual, their own pain tolerance, et cetera, and their desire, their motivation to get certain results, someone who's highly motivated, uh, to win a competition.

Uh, or to, uh, look good in there, uh, swimsuit for a party they're going to, uh, could be different than someone who is just saying, yeah, I want to get some results, but,

[00:20:47] Carl Lanore: [00:20:47] and so this was the basis I sent you a question years ago. And, uh, and, and I don't think I, I, I really, it wasn't well-developed in my mind.

And [00:21:00] I asked you if you thought that perceived exertion. And perceived exhaustion could influence, uh, strength and hypertrophy the response. And my, my thinking was like, if we know that the response to muscle to get stronger, maybe bigger, but to get stronger for sure is this, upregulation the super compensation of a challenge that the body perceives.

We need to be prepared next time. And from 11 evolutionary perspective, all the machinery kicks in to better prepare you. To do something next time. And if you, you do that and you're fully rested and you feel great bang. And the, the top weight that you handle is X and, and, and you get that neuromuscular feedback that was required for the body to go, okay, let's get stronger it.

 And then the next time you're exhausted and you undergo the same steps, but the [00:22:00] weight that you move is. Is, as far as gravity is concerned, less than X, but the body still perceives it as the same level of intensity as when you were well rested. I wonder if the neuromuscular adaptation and super compensation is the same, and if that's true, then we should all be exhausted while we're training and just use weight that we can handle.

[00:22:23] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:22:23] Yeah. And I can't answer your question scientifically, because there's been no study. That would be extremely difficult to try to look at that. But here's something we do know is that muscle development is predicated on the tension in a muscle. The primary driver of hypertrophy, the primary driver is mechanical stress and basically the body converts.

[00:22:43] Mechanical signals into chemical signals and at least theoretically the higher, the mechanical stress, which would have at a given, um, repetition range or loading zone that would be based on the load that you're using. So if you're, let's say getting a 10 RM, [00:23:00] conceivably, I mean, you're not conceivable, you certainly are getting, putting more mechanical stress on the muscle.

[00:23:05] If you're doing, let's say a. 400 pound squat versus a 350 pound squat. Your quads are under greater mechanical stress at the 400 pound squat for 10 reps. Uh, so if you then let's say going to do less weight on the, in the next session. The mechanical stresses last and conceivably, this mechanotransduction where you're converting the mechanical signals into chemical signals.

[00:23:28] And then there's a cascade of enzymes that carry out protein synthesis, or that lead to the carrying out of a protein synthesis muscle protein synthesis will take over and again, conceivably, uh, you're not going to be able to have that same response now, how that plays out in practice. That's the hype, the theoretical rationale.

[00:23:50] As to why that might have an effect, whether that actually plays out in practice, the body is so complex and trying, trying to, uh, use logic, [00:24:00] obviously that's what a researcher is going to do, but then we try to study it in a controlled environment and that would be an extremely difficult to control all the variables and try to isolate that, Oh, we're going to take

[00:24:11] Carl Lanore: [00:24:11] a break.

[00:24:12] You know, the longer I do this show, the more I realize. We don't know, you know what, you know, one of my favorite sayings now, and I say this pretty ubiquitously when people post these questions, uh, baby talk, Joel green likes to call it, is this good? Is this bad? And I say like, even trying to answer that would be an insult to the complexity of the human body.

[00:24:34] So I'm not even going to go there. We're going to take a quick commercial break. Uh, if you want to pick up a fantastic book, it's called the science, uh, and development of muscle muscle hypertrophy. You can get it at Amazon. Uh, it's actually a textbook, uh, that, uh, Brad wrote last year. Uh, in June, you released it, right?

[00:24:54] Is that when you said June, 2020, so you go there and you get it and be ahead of the crowd. You can be the [00:25:00] smartest kid on your block and the strongest. Uh, we're going to pick up on the other side of this break. We have questions. We'll work those into the show. I promise stay tuned. We'll be right back with more super human radio.

[00:25:13] Welcome back. We actually have a slide that Natalie put up for us that shows. The methodology and the conclusions, um, behind the research, if you want to pause your video, if you're watching, you can read it. This is what we were discussing previously, uh, in the discussion. So we're going to come back, uh, to Dr.

[00:25:32] Schoenfeld and myself and our beautiful mugs, two old guys from New York. You're a lot younger than me. I know, but I like to, I, it's funny. I never thought of myself being in my sixties, but it's not so bad. I gotta be honest with you. It's pretty good. Um, So we have a couple of questions I want to get to these, and then we've got, um, some more questions for you.

[00:25:53] So let's see, we have, uh, uh, pitching comes from Robert Thompson. He wants to ask about creatine monohydrate [00:26:00] do you have an opinion on creatine? Monohydrate.

[00:26:03] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:26:03] Uh, yeah, but what's the question

[00:26:05] Carl Lanore: [00:26:05] he wants to know a crazy amount of hydrate. Is it effective? I eat meat and fish. Uh, so does he need to supplement with it?

[00:26:12] I guess I,

[00:26:13] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:26:13] again, the question, so it's a loaded question. Cause effective for what? Uh, if the goal, if the question is as the strength and, uh, Hypertrophy, uh, potentially it is. So it's one of the most, it probably, it is the most studied muscle-building supplement strength, building supplement, and really one of the only ones I'm not.

[00:26:34] As those who know a about me know that I'm not a huge fan of supplements in general, and that most of them really don't work. Uh, I started any sponsors you may have on this, but yeah, can, I can only give my opinion, that's

[00:26:47] Carl Lanore: [00:26:47] your opinion. That's

[00:26:48] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:26:48] effective. The vast majority, they've not been shown to be effective now with that, this for muscle building now there's certainly for other.

[00:26:57] Uh, other goals, there's some very effective [00:27:00] supplements, but muscle building supplements in general, just generally not effective. Um, with that said kreatin generally is, but number one. Oh, about a third of those who would take kreatin do not, or non-responders they don't respond. Usually it is the mediators, or if you're eating a lot of meat, cause kreatin is found in meat, uh, and thus, uh, usually your.

[00:27:26] Your stores are going to be tapped out. The reason that creates and supplementation can work is because creatine stores are low. So kreatin right. How much we get into the weeds here, but kreatin is the high is, uh, basically regenerate your ATP store. So when you're, what's called the phosphagen system, it allows for regeneration of this anaerobic capacity that you have, uh, and.

[00:27:48] You can get an extra rep or to add also, is it hydrates the cell? So it's thought that it can enhance the, uh, water within the cell, which can make the muscle look fuller. [00:28:00] Um, so again about a third do not respond and, uh, it's not, so it does work. Now. Some people are going to get better results than others.

[00:28:10] Again, it probably is going to be mostly due to what your initial kreatin levels are. It works tends to work better for vegans. Uh, to some extent vegetation.

[00:28:20] Carl Lanore: [00:28:20] Yeah, because they're starving of creatine. They're not

[00:28:22] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:28:22] getting cremated. Well, they don't get it in their, their diets. That's correct. And, uh, what I would say is, is that you can give it a shot and see if it works.

[00:28:30] If it does great. It's pretty easy to say. Do you

[00:28:33] Carl Lanore: [00:28:33] know anything about Doug? Bronchiole?

[00:28:35] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:28:35] I D I know I've never met him, but I respect him. Yeah. He's a, he's a very good bodybuilder back in the day and someone that I, uh, I've had conversations with online. So when I respect that, the

[00:28:47] Carl Lanore: [00:28:47] question is the Bryn Yolie method to failure.

[00:28:49] But I think that it doesn't matter whose method you're using. The science shows that a failure or not failure may be, get a similar results and whether or not a failure is required. [00:29:00] So, but this is a great question.

[00:29:01] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:29:01] And by the way, I don't know Doug's method. So I don't know if his method, I just have spoken to him on some of his ideas about training in general and find him to be a thoughtful, um, Science-based.

[00:29:14] Carl Lanore: [00:29:14] Yeah, he's a great guy. So bear says, so what is true failure? And this is reason I want to get to this question is because I remember watching a documentary and I think it was called the perfect human diet. And they had a guy in a lab and they had him do leg extension, one leg, leg, extension to failure, and then they put this magnetic halo on his head.

[00:29:37] When he said he couldn't do any more. And he was able to do three more reps and they blocked some, uh, brain region that is protective, keeps you from breaking stuff in your body. And so, you know, we think we're at failure, but maybe we're not. So what, how do you gauge true failure? Yes.

[00:29:55] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:29:55] So the definitions that you failure are somewhat different in the [00:30:00] literature, our, um, And, uh, my general definition is the inability to complete another repetition in proper form.

[00:30:10] Uh, so, you know, you can. Go to failure where you're struggling, your weight's going all around. Now. I will say this too in research. So I carried out a research study where we take them quote, unquote to failure. But my number one job as a researcher is not to get my subjects hurt. Right. If I do that, I have, I have, uh, failed as a researcher.

[00:30:35] So if there was any question we stopped there stopped. So again, it's that how ecologically valid is that meaning how much in real life to someone like Dorian Yates? Well, not necessarily. So you have to take those things with some degree of a grain of salt, but I would say this if going to the failure that we defined didn't seem to be that much better.

[00:31:00] [00:31:00] Why would then going even past that, which would cause even more neural fatigue, I've greater effects when it would, my point here is that it would seem logically, logically doesn't always matter, but that if there was going to be a benefit training, harder than not training harder, should you should see a benefit then even training harder than that.

[00:31:17] Is that going to show a benefit? I can't say it doesn't. So it was training to Dorian Yates failure. So we will say this a colleague of mine, another very good researcher, James Steele has done a lot of work with this. And his definition is basically you need to actually try and another rep and FA and not be able to get that rep up.

[00:31:35] Right. That's.

[00:31:36] Carl Lanore: [00:31:36] That's what I always thought failure was like, you get, you get, and you know, it's hard to do by yourself if you're bench pressing, because you're going to get stapled to the bench, proven that you went to failure. But that's what I always thought failure was even. And because I would love to say, Oh, I failed just because my form sucks on that last rep.

[00:31:53] I'm like, Oh, I'm done. But usually, and that's why I have so many injuries and I've suffered so many injuries [00:32:00] because I have taken everything that I could. To true failure. And true failure was to me, was like, if I didn't drop the bar, I was going to be crushed by it in a squat, like, Oh, I failed now. I couldn't do anything else, but you, you know, and that's, that's the interesting thing about failure, but I think you're onto it is Casey Viader that we couldn't think of before.

[00:32:19] Thank you. Yeah. Well, I think you're onto something here because I think if I stop when the, my form becomes horrendous and that's failure to me, I probably wouldn't have torn hamstrings and I probably wouldn't have taught, you know, torn my tricep off and stuff like that. So,

[00:32:37] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:32:37] yeah, which is why. And again, in research, it's just not, um, in my opinion, it's just not at all.

[00:32:43] I shouldn't say it's not ethical because if you're letting the, uh, subjects know that this is going to be a risk, but I personally think that's a poor risk for a re in a research study. And look, I, I, what I would say is I think most researchers use the method that I'm talking about. And [00:33:00] whereas if, when we start seeing the form breaking down, You stopped the set bam.

[00:33:04] Carl Lanore: [00:33:04] I will going to get through the rest of these questions. We're going to take a break and then we're gonna come back. Cause I have more, I want to talk to you about something I read of yours recently, online that fits nicely into this discussion. Um, faith, fitness guy says, what are your thoughts on Lyle McDonald?

[00:33:17] Defining that a failure set is when it gets to three seconds to 10 seconds of effort to complete the rep. Have

[00:33:25] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:33:25] you heard anything about? I said I haven't, but as I said, people are entitled the there's no one definition that you could say everyone is entitled to their opinion as to what constitutes failure.

[00:33:37] So there's, there's not necessarily a right or wrong. There's different in the literature. There's different definitions.

[00:33:44] Carl Lanore: [00:33:44] So, um, the next question come from Clint CB, he says, does long-term weightlifting to failure break down or build the central nervous system? I think from the previous discussion, we really don't know that doing.

[00:33:57] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:33:57] Um, I, you know, when you talk [00:34:00] about build the central nervous system, that somewhat of an ambiguous statement, but it certainly. It could be either depending upon what you're doing. So if you're over-trained you could be breaking it down. Yeah. And you

[00:34:10] Carl Lanore: [00:34:10] can, you can overtrain with lightweight and multi and lots of reps.

[00:34:13] Yeah.

[00:34:14] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:34:14] Correct. But, uh, ultimately, uh, um, consistent resistance training is going to enhance you actually, uh, increase neural the development of your nervous system. So that's what I would assume he's talking about. That would be improved assuming you're training, not, you're not overdoing it.

[00:34:32] Carl Lanore: [00:34:32] So I've done shows on my, on, on rhabdomyolysis, Dr.

[00:34:36] George Julianos says, do we always need rubbed on my losis for muscle growth? In other words, muscle damage and breakdown. I just, before you answer this question, I just have to say something, doctors check creatinine levels, and that's not a good indicator of rhabdo. It's not at all. In fact, it's myoglobin that they're not looking at that they should be looking at that as an [00:35:00] indicator.

[00:35:01] Of rhabdo, but go ahead. I'm sorry.

[00:35:04] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:35:04] Yeah. So I think they're conflating. The question is conflating rhabdomyolysis with muscle damage, you can get muscle damage and you doesn't mean you have rhabdomyolysis. So there are two very different now, uh, uh, high levels of muscle damage can lead to rhabdo my, uh, rhabdomyolysis.

[00:35:20] I would say this whether muscle damage is necessary for growth is still equivocal, although I'm not sure. Again, how you define, uh, how muscle damage you kind of touched on this, but forget about rhabdomyolysis, uh, how muscle damages, uh, assessed there's different ways to look at that, uh, creates and kinases one, uh, Z Y and streaming.

[00:35:44] There's all different ways. You can look at that and you'd have to define that, but I would say. Probably quite difficult, not to have some perturbation of the muscle tissue. If you're lifting weights, it's not, then you're just training really light, you know, not, I shouldn't even say really light, but you're not [00:36:00] challenging.

[00:36:00] You're not challenging. Challenging. Right. Uh, so the question is whether that has additive effects on growth and that is still to be determined. I will say this. At high levels of muscle damage, it clearly is a negative. I don't think there's much question. And certainly if you have rhabdomyolysis that not only is it not needed for growth, that would have negative effects because you're not going to be able to train for a while.

[00:36:22] It would be a, uh, Negative. And once

[00:36:25] Carl Lanore: [00:36:25] people get rhabdo, they're more prone to get it again and again and again, and it's not something good to flip quite frankly, uh, because you could destroy your kidneys and forget about your muscles. You have kidney failure who cares about weightlifting, right? Uh, and last two questions.

[00:36:40] Let's see this one, it says, uh, Oh, uh, Chris opera saying tough to compare. I think when we were talking about failure and all that, the number of variables makes for an impossible comparison. Is stretching worthwhile. There's one from left-field. Are you a big fan of stretching?

[00:36:56] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:36:56] So my answer to a questions like that will always be an, it [00:37:00] depends for what need additional flexibility stretching can be beneficial.

[00:37:05] I mean, and then it's. This will open up a whole can of worms that I don't think we want to go into, but the need for flexibility, mobility is specific to the individual. Stretching is not necessary. If you have the mobility that allows you to do what you want to do in life, carry out your activities of daily living.

[00:37:23] If your flexibility is impaired to the point that it is impairing your ability to carry out activities of daily living, then stretching can be beneficial. And I will also say this, that a. Regimented a resistance training program through a full range of motion serves as an active form of flexibility training.

[00:37:43] And thus there's been, some studies have shown you can get similar benefits to static stretching, uh, with at least in the early stages. It doesn't mean you might not adding stretching into resistance training can get you even better results. So again, that would be in, it depends on based on what your

[00:37:58] Carl Lanore: [00:37:58] goals are.

[00:37:59] Uh, we're going to [00:38:00] take a last commercial break with Dr. Schoenfeld, Science and Development of Muscle Hypertrophy @amazon.com is the book you want to buy. Uh, you know, I, I'm always astonished by the number of people who spend gobs and gobs of money on supplements, but don't spend any money on learning.

[00:38:15] And guess what, when that supplement bottle is empty and you throw it away, you have to refill it. But when you learn something new, it's with you for the rest of your life, you employ it for the rest of your life. And. We have too many people out there who waste so much money on supplements and don't spend a dime on learning something new.

[00:38:35] My attitude is if I buy a book and I learned one thing from it, I read the whole book. It could be 500 pages and I come away with one thing from it. That's a win for me because I will employ that one thing for the rest of my life. So science and development of muscle hypertrophy at Amazon, and also you can learn more.

[00:38:53] At look good naked.com, which does

[00:38:56] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:38:56] look great. Oh

[00:38:58] Carl Lanore: [00:38:58] wait, wait, wait, wait, let me change. Let [00:39:00] me check. Let me check. Yeah, you don't want to just know my website is look good. Naked. He's just look great naked as you can see from the difference in our physiques, but he'll want to say it. I got to change it. I got to do that.

[00:39:10] Look great. Naked. Dot com go there and learn more that I spell it, right? Yes. Okay. Stay tuned. We'll be right back with more of Dr. Brad Schoenfeld. You're listening to and watching super human radio.

[00:39:24] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:39:24] Welcome back.

[00:39:27] Carl Lanore: [00:39:27] So I'd like to, I'd like to put up a cap on it, this discussion. And I hearkened back to one of my favorite sayings.

[00:39:35] When people ask me what's the best diet. And we know that answer is the one that you'll stick to the longest consistency is the magic, not the food you're eating. You got to do it long enough to see its effect, then fine, tune it and see what changes. So the best diet is the one that you'll stick to the longest.

[00:39:55] Can we now say that about training as well? Thanks to this research. Can we say, Hey look, [00:40:00] you're going to build muscle and strength, no matter which way you go at it. So do what you're willing to do the longest.

[00:40:08] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:40:08] Well, that's always going to depend upon what your goals are. I again, I would say that is true for the vast majority of the population.

[00:40:14] Oh. Whose goals are modest, who just want to gain muscle and have a good physique. If your goal is a bodybuilder or to, to maximize your genetic potential, then that's going to require you do. You know, have, uh, ha have greater scientific, uh, um, input into your thought processes and into your training. So, yeah, I, I think that for the majority of people doing a fairly minimalist routine will get them a majority already have their, uh, results.

[00:40:44] It's for a, yeah, I would say to maximize if you're getting 80 or 90% of your results to get the next. To get to that next level. That's where really the manipulation of variables and, uh, and, and taking a very [00:41:00] intuitive and scientific approach, a combination of understanding your body and then using the, what we know through science and combination with, uh, with your own expertise is how are you going to achieve that?

[00:41:12] But

[00:41:12] Carl Lanore: [00:41:12] isn't that the original. Schoenfeld template when you were on the show years ago. And we talked about the way you like to train is, you know, get the heavy movements upfront, the real strenuous to heroic stuff while your body is fresh. And then as you move on, uh, you know, you start hitting the higher reps, slightly less weight, and then an in there you're failing here and there isn't, isn't that kind of like the gestalt of the best way to train.

[00:41:42] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:41:42] Again, best way. Uh, is. Really depends upon what, who you are for. If you're time limited, you could do a very minimalist routine from Mike mincer style two three-day a week routine, and still get a do doing one set per exercise of the major [00:42:00] muscle groups, six, seven different exercise. You're out in 20 minutes, 30 minutes, and get a, and have a decent physique.

[00:42:06] Have a good physique, uh, to. Maximize your results. That is not going to be the case. So you always have to put what someone's goals are, their abilities. You're going to look at injury. There's so many factors. The age is going to be a factor. So people don't recover as well as they get older. Uh, so lots to unpack there.

[00:42:27] And, uh, I'm always hesitant to say what an ideal routine is. I

[00:42:31] Carl Lanore: [00:42:31] kind of find is as long as progression, you know, as long as progression is the. Is the focus, whether it's increasing reps, increasing weight, um, or doing things that using advanced techniques like, you know, pauses and, and statics and negatives, as long as progression is the ultimate goal.

[00:42:54] I kind of feel like you can continue to get better and better and better. What do you think of that statement?

[00:42:59] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:42:59] Yeah, I [00:43:00] think that is, that is certainly a key to continue to as, uh, continued results that the body, the reason the body changes is because there is a novel stimulus. So the bot basically the body is still living in the caveman era, uh, our genetics and that, uh, to that extent have not changed and that the basic, uh, Reason that the body will adapt is because of a stressor that threatens its survival or a perceived threat to libel.

[00:43:27] If you keep doing the same thing, if there's no progression, the body's used to that. There's no threat to its survival. It has no impetus, no reason to change. So if you do something that is more stressful, if you will impose a stress that it is not used to, uh, on a relatively regular basis. That is how you continually and perpetually get it to evolve and adapt.

[00:43:49] Carl Lanore: [00:43:49] And that, and that's, I wrote down the word evolution here because I want them to work it into the conversation and you just didn't very nicely. And that that's where the real interesting stuff is from an [00:44:00] evolutionary perspective. Muscle is metabolically expensive. It's, doesn't, doesn't really benefit the long-term goal of the species.

[00:44:09] And we can see that because. We have plenty of negative regulators of muscle. We don't really have any positive. We don't have anything that you say, well, if this just turns on, you're just going to grow and grow and grow. But we have lots of things that say, if this turns on, you're going to lose, lose, lose.

[00:44:24] And when you think about that, what we do in the gym, um, Really pushes back on every single evolutionary adoptation that we have developed. When you put on a pound of muscle, you should Pat yourself on the back because you just told evolution a F you man, look what I just did. And you know, we don't think of it that way.

[00:44:48] Right. We think of it as, Oh yeah. My, my biceps, my triceps, I'm getting stronger. We don't realize when you see a 300 pound. Ripped to shred bodybuilders standing on stage. And all [00:45:00] you think is drugs. You're so wrong because evolution has been pushing on that guy or that gal to keep them from even getting near there.

[00:45:09] And they're there. So it's really science should be paying more attention to what's done in the gym because if we can push back on this primary evolutionary edict, what could we do in other areas of our body? If we understood how to coax it.

[00:45:26] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:45:26] Yeah, I agree completely that the evolutionary constraints are massive.

[00:45:31] Like you said, a muscle mass is energetically costly. So, uh, the body, uh, back in the caveman era, a 300 pound bodybuilder would be very difficult for him to catch enough food and, and to go out and either catch the meats and pick the berries wherever they're going to have. To, uh, to survive, to, to maintain that.

[00:45:52] And that again would be a negative survival effect. So the body does try to keep you in that range. And I think that's one of the [00:46:00] exciting areas of science is that if we can find either through training and or through, uh, supplements or drugs, uh, how, uh, that might be able to be, we can overcome these things.

[00:46:13] Uh, there could be benefits. And look, I'm not talking about for bodybuilders, but certainly for wasting diseases, et cetera. And there's all sorts of, uh, aspects of, of life where that can be very important.

[00:46:26] Carl Lanore: [00:46:26] I, I used to communicate with Dr. Sega and Lee fairly regularly, but he would never come on my show and I would ask him, I say, you know, why don't you come on the show?

[00:46:35] But he says, because you guys are interested in building muscle for. You know, for aesthetics and, and, and for, you know, you want to win a contest and I'm trying to keep people from wasting away and dying. And he felt that what he was doing was so much more noble, but the reality is those two things could co-exist and learn from each other.

[00:46:55] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:46:55] Yeah. I, I think when we try to start putting, uh, labels on [00:47:00] things, we, it can be dangerous, but I. I certainly would say that you're in cancer, that what I do is not curing cancer, but I mean, certainly improving someone's self-esteem is an important endeavor. So, bye bye.

[00:47:12] Carl Lanore: [00:47:12] I would, I would, I would argue with you.

[00:47:16] One of the leading causes of death from cancer is kikexia the wasting a lot of people don't die from the cancer per se. They die from the toll of the body, just literally wasting away and a guy like you could probably show them some modalities, maybe not to build muscle, but to halt the wasting, which would give them a greater lifespan.

[00:47:37] Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Ph.D.: [00:47:37] Yeah, actually. So I've, uh, I'm involved in a Meda analysis on resistance training with cancer, uh, which is going to have some interesting we're in the process of it now, but should have some interesting data on that.

[00:47:50] Carl Lanore: [00:47:50] One more time. He is the greatest of all time when it comes to muscle building scientific research, his book is science and development of muscle This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and his website is looking great.

[00:48:04] Naked mine is look average naked. You don't want to go to that website, Brad always. Great to see you, brother. My pleasure. Take care. I will going to take one quick commercial break. We'll be right back with more superhuman radio. Stay with me.

[00:48:21] Hey, welcome back. I ghavea quick discussion I want to have with you guys right now. So I'm off tomorrow because I'm actually going to be working on the new studio to get it set up for Alisa Profumo, TLA T the lovely and talented, because tomorrow is Thursday, but Friday is the second episode of this season's Casual Friday, Wow. Look at this. This is so cool. Natalie set this up.. I gotta turn the volume up and start that again. That is so cool. It's a video. Natalie's the best. Yes. So Friday we have our second installment of this year's Casual Friday. Many of you have asked for us to bring Casual Friday back and we have those of you who love Casual Friday.

[00:49:14] Love Alisa's voice and soft approach to talking about current news stories and stuff that's kind of circulating on the internet and we weigh in on it and have opinions. I tend to be the boisterous, buffoon. I try to make a joke here and there, but it's a lot of fun. A lot of people love Casual Friday.

We had a huge turnout for last Casual Fridays live show, you'll be able to watch it on Facebook and YouTube. Hopefully we'll have the audio stream fixed by then. We're working on that this Friday. And as a result, you'll be able to even listen to it. Hope you can join us because we'll take your questions live.

[00:49:56] We'll take your comments, just like we do here on Facebook and YouTube now. [00:50:00] And you can chime in. I know at has been working all month on this next show this Friday, so please join us. And if you can't join us, Was always the replay. You could always watch these videos later on, on Facebook and YouTube, or you can come to the website and download the podcast or any of the top podcasts apps, like Apple podcasts and Stitcher and iHeart media, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:50:25] So yes, another episode of casual Friday will be in the books and hopefully you can join us live. I rode my motorcycle to work today, even though there's a slight threat of rain because the new bike is so much faster with the modifications I've made. Uh, and so I'm going to get my work done here again today and do what I have to do, and then get on that bike and take a ride before the rain comes.

[00:50:48] That's it. We're off the air tomorrow, but we will be here Friday for Casual Friday. So please join us and share the show. We'll see you.