[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] got to open my mic. Hey, Hey, welcome back to another episode of super radio. Uh, Today is August 3rd. The year is just flying by people, always trying to find solutions to reach a better level of health. We have a solution for you. We're going to be talking about during the first hour later, we're going to be joined by dr.

[00:00:18] Neil . And we're going to talk about what is gram positive gram negative mean? We hear it all the time and most of us really don't know what it means before we get started. Of course I have to thank. Our title sponsor, legendary foods who makes this show possible with a generous sponsorship fee, uh, go to the website, eat legendary.com.

[00:00:39] Use the code SHR 10, save 10% off of everything. If you're a low carb keto person, this website will fulfill your needs for healthy decadent tasting snacks that won't derail. All of your dietary efforts.

[00:00:54] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:00:54] Uh, so check them out

[00:00:56] Carl Lanore: [00:00:56] and, uh, show them some love and let them know that Carl sent you. [00:01:00] And now without further delay, we're going to be joined by my guest today.

[00:01:04] Hold onto somebody do some remote full of images. Dr. David, Raven, how you doing dr. Raven?

[00:01:09] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:01:09] Not too bad. You're solid by you.

[00:01:11] Carl Lanore: [00:01:11] Wonderful. One thing, one fact, I just used the device. I can attest that it works.

[00:01:17] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:01:17] Okay.

[00:01:18] Carl Lanore: [00:01:18] Because you, because you were late, were starting to show a little bit late. For those of you who are watching on Facebook, we generally start pretty promptly at one o'clock.

[00:01:26] And I was freaked out and I thought, well better. What better time to see if the, the relax mode works. And I gotta be honest with you. It really did. Um, I was freaked out. I was texting people. I'm like, we don't have a guest. We don't have a first.

[00:01:39] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:01:39] No, no, no, no. I had a,

[00:01:40] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:01:40] I had a patient that ran over and I just couldn't,

[00:01:43] Carl Lanore: [00:01:43] I've been doing live broadcast radio for 14 years now.

[00:01:47] I've had shows where the guests didn't show up and I was fortunate enough to be able to carry the content myself. This one, I couldn't. But I thought, you know, let me give it a try. And I did it and it re all of a sudden I felt this overwhelming [00:02:00] sensation of, um, peace come over me. And I thought, Oh my God, this is really working.

[00:02:07] I used it this morning to wake up with a, it's a great device. Those of you who never heard of it, it said it's called Apollo neuro. And it really, really works. So before we run too far, Uh, into this w how did, how did this project evolve? How did Apollo neuro become a product?

[00:02:27] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:02:27] So it's a, it's an interesting story.

[00:02:29] It's a recent story. Um, I was doing re I'm a psychiatrist and a neuroscientist by training. I focused my practice on seeing patients with treatment resistant, post traumatic stress disorder, depression, anxiety, substance use disorders, chronic pain, and things of that nature that are often worsened by stress.

[00:02:45] And I've been studying. Chronic stress for the better part of 15 years. And I think one of the things that I noticed in my practice was that there were a lot of people with these conditions that just weren't getting better and they weren't getting better with the standard of care treatments. And part of it was because.

[00:03:00] [00:03:00] From all the research that had been done up until the last several years, I started working on this in 2014 at the university. And we were looking at discovering new treatments for people with post traumatic stress disorder. Because in this disorder, the nervous system is, is upset. The balance is upset.

[00:03:16] So the fight or flight or the stress response system activity is way up here where we're constantly feel threatened or perceived threat all the time. And our nervous system shows that our heart rate gets higher and our blood pressure's higher. Um, Our heart rate variability is lower. Okay. And you can measure these things.

[00:03:32] They've been measured in tons of studies. And so what it lowers these things back to our baseline, back to a place where we're in a state of recovery and feeling good. And as you said, at peaceful and present inside, even at times of threat is things like breath. And things like massage and self touch and soothing sounds and all of these pathways are conserved over time evolutionarily.

[00:03:57] And in fact, what's really interesting is if you look [00:04:00] back into the history of humanity, the most common way that we, uh, conveyed a sense of safety. To each other was touch. And this is even prehuman. This goes back into ancient primates. And we see this still now. So there's systems for touch. We found we're hard wired into the body to provide a sense of safety to people who never felt safe.

[00:04:21] These people with treatment resistant, posttraumatic stress disorder. And so we started experimenting based on the literature in this field, all of these different things from electricity to sound, we were all, we had a musical backgrounds and, and then we got into vibration. Because my wife, Catherine, who is now the CEO of Apollo neuroscience, um, she founded the company with me and she came in early to help us with our commercial development because we're scientists, we didn't know anything about commercial development and this was back in 2016, right.

[00:04:50] And she said you can't shock people, even if it makes them feel good. They're not going to want it to experience that in the general consumer market, maybe in the medical market, but you want to get this out to heal [00:05:00] the people in the general community in a large way. So we need to make this something that's really appealing and we didn't trust her.

[00:05:05] So she made us do a bunch of market research and we had found out, in fact, we will actually didn't want to be shocked no matter how good we told them it felt right. And so generally, so then we figured out that we could do it with sound in a vibration that you feel, and not here. And so that sound gets delivered to the skin and it's picked up by the touch receptors.

[00:05:22] Just the same way someone holding your hand on a bad day is picked up by your touch receptors. And it sends a signal to our brains that says, if I have time to pay attention to this feeling, then it can't, I can't possibly be running from a lion. Mm. And so that just like the switch is exact same pathway as deep breathing.

[00:05:40] It's exact same pathway as human touch. And it's subconscious, it's below our level of awareness. Um, and it happens in an automatic loop to help us conserve safety and remember, and turn back on that recovery system that parasympathetic rest and digest and reproduce and, um, you know, store energy and, and, you know, all of this, [00:06:00] the system sleep, all of these systems that only happen when we feel safe are allowed to be turned back on by this.

[00:06:06] Hard wired subconscious pathway. And so we figured out how to tap into that and that's where Apollo came from.

[00:06:12] Carl Lanore: [00:06:12] So, and it's interesting. And the technology was introduced when I was, uh, in business in Las Vegas, in the eighties. When they put the, the little centrifical weight device in pagers and beepers, so you could put it on silent and you'd feel it buzz on your hip and it would get your attention.

[00:06:31] Oh, someone's paging me. But I mean, the device that you use in here is this is well understood. Uh, and, and the technology is, is effective and, and durable too. So basically what you have in here is. You have one of these little, uh, I want to say they, what do they call them? What do they call actuator? Well, it's an actuator, but it's a, it's a, I want to, it sounds like a M B L I keep thinking of a syllable, but anyway, um, these, uh, [00:07:00] these little centrifical weights, that vibrate, uh, that's in here and, but you have them not only vibrating at a specific frequency.

[00:07:08] But you oscillate the amplitude, which, which is really interesting because when I use the one to, uh, that's supposed to increase your energy, the second it started to vibrate, it was like, I felt what's, you know, what's that. Wow. But then when I use the one, you know, the, the vibration frequency and amplitude is very specific.

[00:07:31] When I wouldn't use the one right before the show started, where I thought, well, we're not going to do this show. I'm getting all freaked out. And it really did a completely different effect. So it's not just the, the, it's not just the introduction of the vibration that makes you go, Oh, it's specific frequencies and amplitude that affect you differently.

[00:07:49] How did you figure those frequencies? And amplitudes out.

[00:07:54] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:07:54] So, so that's the neck that's. That was the next thing that I was getting to was that when we first developed this, we came [00:08:00] up with, through the study of biofeedback, predominantly meditation. We came up with one pattern and that first pattern was the pattern that's in the clear and focus setting.

[00:08:10] And that pattern, we just, we, we actually originally developed it in the lab. We developed it with, uh, some stuff we bought on Amazon with like a, you know, uh, an amplifier from radio shack and a center of a subwoofer on a wire. And we just plugged it in and put different ways through it. And we modulating the base.

[00:08:27] And when we found that fo that frequency pattern that was in clear and focused, it immediately made us feel clear and focused. And we used to call it the freshness. And this frequency pattern was really interesting because it combined. Wakefulness pattern that had been shown in a number of other studies to make people feel awake and alert also with this awesome waiting, separate pattern that help people feel calm and peaceful.

[00:08:55] And so when you put the, when we were thinking about how to do this, we were like, Oh, well, what if we put these two together? Maybe it [00:09:00] will work. And then we started playing with the settings a little bit and when we got it and it was like that, that was that aha moment. So then we said, okay, if this is, we tried it on a bunch of other people in our lab and we're like, all right, other people are feeling the same thing we're feeling.

[00:09:11] So this, so if we actually want to test, if this idea is going to work, we need to put it through a rigorous, double blind, randomized, placebo controlled clinical trial. And so we ended up that was the trial that Catherine, my wife. Um, ended up helping us raise our first funding for, from university. And then we put it through 38 people.

[00:09:32] Um, who experienced the cell phone buzzes or pager buzzes, like you said, um, that are supposed to increase alertness and tapping vibrations that are supposed to increase calm. And then to Apollo settings, Apollo frequencies, and that were different. One was supposed to increase energy and focus. One was supposed to decrease energy and still maintain focus.

[00:09:53] And so like a calm flow state. And then we put them through a double blind, randomized trial. I recall where nobody knew what [00:10:00] frequencies they were getting. And nobody knew what they were supposed to do. And nobody was familiar with this technology before. And what we showed is that within three minutes of doing a stressful task people reliably improve heart rate variability, which normally goes down under stress, which is the rate of change of the heartbeat over time.

[00:10:16] It's one of our most reliable measures of, of balancing the nervous system and performance on recovery from stress. So we increase that increases focus as measured by people on the tree. And then we also see a proportionate increase in performance on the task 25% with these patients and not the other frequencies.

[00:10:36] Wow. And. And that 25% is really important because this kind of task is so difficult to increase performance on that, that kind of difference is typically only seen with stimulant drugs like amphetamines. So this is in a lot of ways, like an amphetamine degree of effect in terms of focus, but you're doing it with a gentle vibration on the skin that you can turn on and off as you wish.

[00:10:58] And it has no side effects, [00:11:00] right? So that was the first time that we were really like, okay, this is real and absolutely worth pursuing. And one of the other things. What are the other things that came out of that task? That, that a study was me with everyone blinded and randomized. We gave them like 20 different frequency patterns for 30 seconds each.

[00:11:17] And we said, rate on a scale, how this makes you feel. Within 20 or 30 seconds, we saw clusters that certain patterns and do certain States of sleepiness and relaxation versus anger and anxiety or restlessness versus calm and focus, et cetera. And those tended to be what healthy people do best on the task.

[00:11:34] And that's how we started to create the patterns. And understand how the patterns work to provide them to the public, to test.

[00:11:41] Carl Lanore: [00:11:41] Were there any, were there any overt, um, was there any overt literature out there that kind of then you looked at and said, Oh yeah, this makes sense. Like, like even, uh, you know, sleep brainwaves and stuff like that.

[00:11:53] Did you, did you start to look and triangulate and go, Oh yeah, look, this validates our opinion of [00:12:00] this particular frequency. Was there anything out there like that?

[00:12:02] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:12:02] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there were a ton of papers that help support us along the way. And one of my, one of my favorites was this review by Lerone coverts.

[00:12:10] It's on our website that two of the leaders in biofeedback, um, and heart rate variability research. And, um, they wrote a review in 2014 that really just drove home so much of what we were thinking. And then also a number of studies on the way the sound effects the body, right. And these different frequency patterns.

[00:12:26] And we'll be we'll, I'll actually be publishing the. The entire literature review of this shortly over the next six months, probably that really highlights how we came to these conclusions and how we believe these kinds of technologies. We used to work that the body is naturally receptive to frequency.

[00:12:44] And once we start to understand that these different frequencies can affect the body, it's much bigger than just Apollo. It's really thinking about how those frequencies influence the way we think and the way we feel and the way we sleep and the way we breath and the way we recover and the way we perform.

[00:12:58] And if once we understand all those [00:13:00] influences in our lives, you know, it really impacts the way we allow what comes in, right? Like maybe news all the time with people yelling and screaming at each other all the time is negative, is making us feel bad. And that's something that we can choose to limit in our lives to an extent that it doesn't matter influence our mood and our, our energy and our.

[00:13:20] You know, feelings about ourselves and our self worth and all these other things. And that's just one of many examples.

[00:13:25] Carl Lanore: [00:13:25] Yeah. And I, I would go even further and, you know, wait, let me get my aluminum hat, but I'm a firm believer that RF incident on tissue has an effect. And when you look at some of these wavelengths that were being subjected to, you know, up above 900 megahertz, 1.4 gigs and so on.

[00:13:44] You may not feel them per se perceptively, but your tissue feels them. We've seen studies that show that, uh, engaging a 15 minute cell phone call, uh, within a half hour of going to sleep causes a greater degree of deep sleep latency. [00:14:00] Like I think like something, something very, very significant, like, like 45 minutes of deep sleep latency by doing that phone call.

[00:14:09] And there is evidence that it has excitatory effects on. On brain neurons. So we are being subjected to, and, and then there's, there's, there's, there's frequent sees that we are subjected to that we don't even pay attention to anymore and there could be. The 60 cycle hum of a generator, you know, in your basement or some, some electrical device that we, that we w you can feel it.

[00:14:35] If you put like your tactile and you can go, wow, I feel that, but I just never notice it. So we, we are, we are affected by frequencies constantly. This Apollo neuro harnesses, your ability to, um, direct. The frequencies that you want to be exposed to. So from that standpoint, is there a cocoon effect? Like if you have the Apollo neuro and you're in an office, you know, um, [00:15:00] that has buzzes and sounds and stuff like that, and who's, this will it kind of take over since it's closer to the proximity, many of your nervous system then out there and shield you from some of those other frequencies that you didn't realize and making you anxious all the time.

[00:15:16] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:15:16] You're a smart man. Carl, I will say that because that is an amazing, any way to describe the effect that I think is very difficult for people to understand. You know, I think the physics, the law of physics that governs this, that I, that always sort of guides me is this idea that energy decreases at, I believe it's at the square of the distance by the square of the distance

[00:15:36] Carl Lanore: [00:15:36] from us.

[00:15:37] Right. Right.

[00:15:37] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:15:37] So what that means is that there's an exponential rate of decay from the source of the frequency or the energy to us. So the receiver of that energy. So when you hold a cell phone to your head is one example, you're exposing yourself directly to a lot of energy. If you're surrounded by a lot of ambient sound or, or, or distracting noise in the offices, the example you gave, [00:16:00] then what a lot of people tell us.

[00:16:03] And what I personally experienced in myself is that when using Apollo, because it's, it's delivering a vibration, right? The skin, it does help. To over, over, uh, overwhelmed some of the stuff that's coming in from the outside. He don't want my win. And then it's a lot of ways we're store's agency to our attention in that moment, allowing us to choose what we tune into.

[00:16:25] Right. Do it's very much like we do.

[00:16:27] Carl Lanore: [00:16:27] Do you have people, you have people that are hyper tactile people that don't like the feeling of it.

[00:16:34] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:16:34] There are rarely

[00:16:36] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:16:36] rare. Very, really, I mean, I say that because typically we can just the, the intensity level to be so gentle that people can just barely feel it. And that's why the intensity levels in there is because some people really, really like very intense stimuli all the time.

[00:16:52] Um, but I, you know, I, I use it on like 10 to 20%. Usually most of the time I don't use it much higher than that. Everyone has a different sensory. [00:17:00] Level. Um, and so we typically recommend people start low and then gently ramp it up to the point where you feel it, but it's not distracting. And that's when people typically get the best results.

[00:17:10] Carl Lanore: [00:17:10] So there's a term that a lot of people use, but really don't give a lot of thought to it. And you just used it just now. And I want to, I want to invoke it again, but we, we have, um, we have a country. That is mired and gut issues today. And one of the gut issues that I see that I talk about on the show from time to time that I'm starting to see more and more incidents of, uh, is, uh, perhaps a, uh, a fouled up, uh, peristalsis cycle.

[00:17:40] Um, okay. Coming to the conclusion that a lot of the GERD people are experiencing, um, isn't isn't failure. It's secondary failure of the esophageal sphincter. And what I mean by that is the esophageal sphincter has a pressure rating, which is 20 millimeters of water. That's the pressure of you. If the gut [00:18:00] builds up 21, 22 millimeters of water and pressure that the esophageal sphincter is open, like a dolphins blow hole, and then everything comes up and quite often, um, GERD is mistreated by trying to reduce.

[00:18:17] The acid content of the stomach, which actually makes it worse because now acid is one of the things, uh, that triggers peristalsis. There's a lot of stuff going on today and I blame it on things that are happening to us in the Vegas nerve. And we know that, uh, there are Grassic pro gastric prokinetic drugs that actually cause heart rhythm issues.

[00:18:43] Because again, they focus on the vagus nerve is a long way around something, but I want to go for it. But. I really believe that the lack of rest and digest and the adherence and observance of rest and digest, it [00:19:00] is leading to food composing in the stomach and not moving down into the small and large intestine like they're supposed to.

[00:19:07] So you end up with gas here and it blows open and leads the garden. And I have people that I've helped using a. A peptide. That's a gastric prokinetic then they're like my GERD went away. I don't vomit it at two hours after meals anymore. I'm seeing more and more of this, which leads me to the supposition that setting your Paulo neuro on a setting that creates this rest and digest environment for the body has to have benefits.

[00:19:37] Postprandial has to have benefits after you eat a meal. What are your thoughts on that?

[00:19:43] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:19:43] So I can tell you that we've got a lot of reports of that, particularly with the meditation and mindfulness setting, um, after meals or with GI upset in general, people really enjoy that frequency. Um, there's a, we haven't done any clinical studies on it.

[00:19:59] I would [00:20:00] love to, um, I think that there is absolutely a relationship, as you said, between the vagal system, which is the primary parasympathetic nerve. And digestion and the rate of Paracelsus. And, you know, we know part of the reason why the system is called the rest and digest system is because there is a direct connection between safety, the stimulus that turns on the parasympathetic system and triggers activity in the vagus nerve as one of many, but usually the signal to the brain is safety to allow the recovery system to turn on and.

[00:20:37] Then threat, which when we perceive threat causes dysfunction in the rest and digest recovery system, because when we perceive that we are in a state where our survival is threatened, even if it's not actually threatened, even if we just perceive it. Yeah. Then that is going to. Take resources away from the rest and digest system, the parasympathetic nervous system, [00:21:00] because it's not deemed as a priority in that moment.

[00:21:02] And so then things start to dysfunction. Peristyle system digestion being a primary one food absorption itself, and, and the brain down on the molecular level of, of food proteins gets disrupted when we're in these States. So it's not even, it goes, I would take it even one level beyond. What you're talking about, which is the destruction of Paracelsus.

[00:21:22] This is happening on a molecular level where, um, the proteins in the stomach and their secretion of their levels are changing. Um, their functioning is changing when we're chronically stressed out and that's impacting the way we're digesting the food in the stomach, as you said, and then that's impacting the way that the stomach empties.

[00:21:41] To start the peristaltic process in the absorption, through the small intestine. So that, and then that process of interrupted digestion where sometimes it's working. Okay. And other times it's not working so great. Cause it's losing resources is part of why I think people have this intermittent back and forth with, with, um, you know, irritable [00:22:00] bowel IBS and things of that nature.

[00:22:01] But there are, there are, there are so many theories about this. I think, you know, this theory that we're talking about is one that kind of ties a lot of the. A lot of, a lot of the things together, but if the autonomic nervous system plays a huge role in, in so many of these different recovery, Feature features of us that are so important to the enjoyment of our healthy lives,

[00:22:22] Carl Lanore: [00:22:22] my meditation and mindfulness on, as I embark on my meal, should I turn it on after my meal, it sounds like I should turn it on as I embark on my meal.

[00:22:32] So I'm already in that relaxed, uh, you know, of mindfulness mode where I'm paying attention to what I'm eating and not the news and all that sort of stuff.

[00:22:42] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:22:42] Yeah. I mean, so that's a great point. So Apollo, so what Apollo does, yes. It's again, this is not a magic button that's going to change the way you feel, but it does help you change the way you feel by smoothing out the transition between States.

[00:22:55] Right? So by giving a basically by giving a gentle, nudge [00:23:00] to the body, through the skin and saying, Hey, you're safe. You don't need to be alarmed right now, the body automatically more easily shifts from one state to another, whether that's from wakefulness to sleep venous or sleepiness to wakefulness or stress to calm or calm to focus or whatever it might be.

[00:23:17] And so. Going from like a state that you're saying, like, when you're in kind of like a heady, you know, overwhelmed state, think about the news or about work or whatever, and you want to calm down and really enjoy your meal. Yeah. Turning on the Apollo for 15 minutes or five or even five minutes before you do that will be likely to bring you down into the present to really be centered and, and get more out of that meal.

[00:23:38] Um, so I think you're absolutely right there, but I think using it afterwards is good. Yeah, too. I think the point of Apollo that's so great. And we really emphasize when we created it, it's incredibly safe. It can't hurt you. So that leaves opportunity for everyone to explore different ways of these frequencies can be used in their lives.

[00:23:56] You know, there isn't one right way to use these things because [00:24:00] they're all, every one of us is we're very similar. Like we see 90% to 95% similar response rates, but then that leaves 5% variability. Right? So there's a lot of people out there who experience things differently. And. You know, the more you play with them and tell us about your different experiences and what you get out of it.

[00:24:16] The more we can learn and improve the product.

[00:24:18] Carl Lanore: [00:24:18] You know, it's funny. Uh, I wanna, I want to plug the link. First of all, if you want to learn more about Apollo neuro, if you use this link, you can actually save 15% off. Uh, if you go to SHR network.biz/apollo, neuro. So that's SHR, N E T w O R K dot Bizz slash AP O L L O.

[00:24:40] Any URL. Uh, you'll be offered this product at a 15% discount just to my audience. You know, I talk about this on the show, uh, uh, more than, than not often, it's the reality that from an evolutionary perspective, um, one of our gifts is to seek out danger in our [00:25:00] environment. For survival purposes, but that, but the environment used to be the local area that we, and we inhabited now the environment because of news and global connectivity is Iran.

[00:25:15] It's like, we're worried about stuff that's going on in Iran. It's like, we're here and I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. I'm worried about what's going on in New York. I'm worried. And so we are just really being destroyed today, uh, because. Because, and the news knows this. Because they are taking advantage of an ancestral gift and that is to seek out danger in our environment.

[00:25:37] And this is why news. This is why people watch bad news more than good news, because it's like, Oh, good news. I don't have to worry about that. That's not going to hurt me. Well, bad news that might hurt me. I got to follow that. And I see this device as an opportunity to fight back to, to, to, to, to take technology and go.

[00:25:57] I'm going to shift out of this mode. I just watched this. [00:26:00] I'm all frustrated. I'm angry. They're protesting, blah, blah, blah. You know what? Let me just shift. Let me just change gears because you get the app. It's a great app. You press, you press the button on what you want, how long you check you, you learn what, what, uh, amplitude you like?

[00:26:15] You know, I like, I like it. I like it higher. I like 65%. I like to feel it. You know, it gets me I guess, but it's like, and it works. I can't believe how well it works. In fact. Before I tried it. I thought this has gotta be, you know, ah, come on, you know, this is BS, right? Like yeah. It, because it, how did that sound so simple?

[00:26:39] How could that be? You know, but like I said, I was freaked out that you weren't going to make it. I was going to cancel the show. I was like, and then I flipped it on. And all of a sudden I just felt this overwhelming sense of peacefulness. And I was like, well, the show doesn't happen. Well, Do it another day and it just made me, made me, is it possible for me to deal with like the [00:27:00] stress?

[00:27:00] It was really, it's amazing. It's amazing to me.

[00:27:03] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:27:03] I'm so glad to hear that I'm so grateful that you thought of using it in that moment.

[00:27:08] Carl Lanore: [00:27:08] Oh, you didn't do this. You didn't do it to test them. I thought maybe you did it to test. We were going to take a quick commercial break. We're going to take a quick break.

[00:27:16] When we come back, I got a lot more questions. Uh, you can go to SHR network.biz forward slash Apollo neuro to learn more, stay tuned, Uber right back. We use oxygen for the power of doing

[00:27:36] welcome back. We're talking with dr. David Raven, we're talking about the Apollo neuro. This is a product that's absolutely worthy of your investigation. If, excuse me, if you're somebody who suffers from anxiety, um, If you don't wind down at night before sleep, a lot of people say, Oh, my mind is just racing.

[00:27:53] I can't fall asleep. Um, or you're somebody who tends to lose [00:28:00] focus easily. Uh, and, and you want to try to improve your focus and your, your conscious efforts without taking drugs, using large doses of caffeine. In fact, I'm using Apollo neuro to help me kick caffeine, believe it or not. Um, I actually. It's habit forming to me.

[00:28:19] I've my audience knows that I've struggled for a decade and I quit. And then I go back and I use high doses. When I use caffeine. I'm using generally caffeine anhydrous to 1,015 hundred milligrams a day. And yeah, it's, it's, it's ruining me. It's ruining me in a lot of different ways that I recognize, but it's funny the days that I don't want to have caffeine, I literally, it's almost like, you know how dogs attention is.

[00:28:46] Squirrel. It's like I'm, I'm working and all of a sudden, I think, Oh, let me go next door and get a bang energy drink. You know, let me go get, so now when I have that urge, I just hit the energy mode and [00:29:00] I, and I'm using it. I'm literally using it. It's almost like tapping. It's like I'm using it to break that train of thought and it, it makes me feel energized.

[00:29:08] So there's a lot of reasons that people can use this. Um, my, my question is. Is there, is there an opportunity to use this as an entrainment device, to where at some point in time, you actually start to change your behavior by using it frequently enough?

[00:29:26] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:29:26] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that was really what was, we're working to wards to develop it.

[00:29:31] You know, I think, you know, I've, as an addiction psychiatrist, I've worked with a lot of people who have substance use disorders. It's extremely common, extremely, extremely common. I, I also really like caffeine and I. And I used Apollo to kick that habit so that I can enjoy it when I want it, but I don't crave it.

[00:29:49] Same way that I used to. And you know, what happens with the brain is, you know, I don't know if anybody listening is familiar with Eric Cannondale's work, but Eric Kandel won the Nobel prize in [00:30:00] 2004, discovering the mechanism of learning and memory. And that this mechanism is, is actually conserved through evolution for probably over 300 million years, dating back these ancient sea snails that only have three neurons and that basically learn and form memories in the same way, the way that we do.

[00:30:17] Wow. And so what's, what's so fascinating about this is what he showed is that this thing that our moms often told us, our dads told us when we were kids practice makes perfect, could not be more true. And this is true for both good things in our lives and bad things in our lives. So practicing negative habits, trains negative habits, and strengthens those pathways in the brain.

[00:30:41] So, what we found is through cognitive behavioral therapy and other psychotherapy techniques, there are very specific patterns of behavior that can be used to retrain the brain and rewire effectively the way that we think about these different things going on in our lives. And so we developed a Pollo specifically based on a lot of those principles in that, [00:31:00] you know, we understand that you can't have a therapist there with you always, you know, reminding you, Hey, do this, don't do that, do this.

[00:31:06] Right. And that's just unrealistic. So. What if we had a wearable that people could take out of you office, right? And then whenever they felt like they. Needed to check themselves or needed to, you know, not, not yet engage. They wanted an opportunity for change, right? The ideas reminder that you have an opportunity to change the outcome of your decision making right now in the present, which is the only time that we really have to change and control the outcome of our future.

[00:31:35] There is right now, and it brings you right the mind, which can be anywhere. Yeah, it brings it right back down to the body, which is right. Always in the present and gives you that empowering opportunity to make a change in your, in your outcome. And then as we retrain the brain by taking a different path than the original path that we had taken for the last however many years or whatever it is that it starts to rewire the brain [00:32:00] and over time, those pathways get stronger for, you know, the alternative healthier route than the, than the previous route that was harming us.

[00:32:10] Carl Lanore: [00:32:10] So this is the big difference between habit forming and an addiction. Just want to kind of just tend to generally discussed this since I have you on the show. Um, I get very frustrated with people who say things like sugar is addictive or, you know, name it, you know, and, and, and true addiction. The hallmark of true addiction is physically rewiring the brain.

[00:32:32] Um, so that the neurons. That are rewarded by this molecule actually increase their number and density in the area of the brain. So you literally have physical. Architectural changes in the brain that crave that, whether it be heroin or even alcohol, I think is a nicotine, but other things that are habit forming, they're mislead, labeled as addictive [00:33:00] because of what you just said, because you, your body wants them, but there really is no physical addiction.

[00:33:05] So they're generally easier to, to, to kick right.

[00:33:10] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:33:10] So, yes and no, I think you're mostly, mostly correct. I think the thing that I would say that is a common misconception is that Eric Kendall's work actually showed us that in Mo all in, in the ways that we're rewiring, the brain learning is learning. So whether we're learning habits.

[00:33:33] Into the point of sugar and, and habits with sugar, um, or whatever it might be, or we're doing engaging in, you know, more extreme addictive behavior. Both of these States are rewiring the brain. Addictive. That's a behavior that's more extreme. Might rewire it more and probably does require it to be more towards that behavior.

[00:33:51] But they're both rewiring the brain and every learning, every time we learn anything, we are creating new synaptic connections in our brains that [00:34:00] if we continue down that path of behavior in a habitual or addictive way, it will facilitate strengthening and growth of those pathways. So that is a general principle that neuroscience now completely.

[00:34:12] Undeniably supports. I think that the other side of what you said is that there is a difference between habits and addictions that are we're addiction because addiction in a lot of capacities, the way we use it, medically refers to being addicted to something that is a substance addiction. The body becomes actually physically dependent on and that physical dependence is.

[00:34:37] A point at which if the substance was discontinued, that there would be very severe, your biological consequences, that in some cases could result in death or severe psychological disturbance. So things like opioids that have a severe withdrawal, alcohol and benzodiazepines have a very severe addictive withdrawal of those.

[00:34:58] The only ones that can kill you are [00:35:00] alcohol and benzodiazepines opioids feel opiate withdrawal feels like you're going to die. Right. But you won't actually die from the withdrawal itself, alcohol and benzodiazepine withdrawal. You actually can die from those, um, because of delirium, tremendous and seizures.

[00:35:14] So,

[00:35:16] Carl Lanore: [00:35:16] so people could, could, could Apollo neuro be used for people who have true addiction, you think.

[00:35:23] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:35:23] So we're working on that, you know, I think true addiction is, is very complex disorder and there are not a lot of good alternatives to treating it right now. Um, I think that right now, what we do know is that behavior change, practicing behavior, change strategies that change these networks of reward in the brain are critical to the rehabilitation from addiction disorders and Apollo facilitates that, right?

[00:35:49] It's another tool in the toolbox. It helps facilitate these. This retraining and this relearning pathway, um, which is really important for treating addiction. So I think that's [00:36:00] down the road. Yes. All of the evidence to date shows that people are able, this does help people who are struggling when you come off of opioid medications and caffeine.

[00:36:08] And we have lots of reports of this and sleep at sleep medicines, lots of reports of this, but we don't have any clinical trials to date. And we're working on, on doing those now and setting them up. But it's a very exciting time because I think, I think that, you know, to think about the ability to have.

[00:36:21] Technology that can actually treat a very severe addictive disorder that it could be, you know, really harming someone and their lives and their family communities, et cetera. You know, these disorders are very serious and they impact such a huge, Oh

[00:36:38] Carl Lanore: [00:36:38] yeah. They lead to other disease States. They lead to other disease.

[00:36:40] Right. So,

[00:36:41] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:36:41] yeah. Right. So much suffering that could potentially be avoided with a wearable technology. I mean, how amazing would that be? So we're doing the work to figure that out.

[00:36:51] Carl Lanore: [00:36:51] If you want to find out if Apollo neuro will work for you, go to SHR network.biz/apollo neuro, all one word, AP O L [00:37:00] L O N E U R O.

[00:37:02] And if you choose. To take advantage of it. You'll save 15% off because you're in this audience. We're going to take our last commercial break and wrap up the discussion about Apollo neuro. Then at the top of the hour, we're going to be joined by dr. Neil Bonn, not, I think I'm pronouncing his name, right, but he'll correct me on the air.

[00:37:19] He's actually in our green room right now. And we're going to talk about gram positive and gram negative bacteria. We've heard these terms used and most of us just shake our heads, like yeah. But the truth is I never really know what it really means and why it's important. We're going to teach you that on a biology one Oh one.

[00:37:36] Everybody wants to elevate their game, get your dictionary out. We're going to be doing it in a little while. Stay tuned. We'll be right back.

[00:37:48] Welcome back. So we have a question. Um, From our audience from Kirkland where Letty, he said, um, can you use, can you use them, how do you order a [00:38:00] new strap for your Apollo?

[00:38:03] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:38:03] So we'll be having, um, just say, keep a look out to your email. We'll be having numerous straps, uh, available soon. Um, I believe that if you just email our customer service team right now, um, where you can get a, um, Apollo, they'll put you on the list and you will get the email specifically about the wrist straps, but there'll be out very, very shortly on the website within either this week or next week

[00:38:28] Carl Lanore: [00:38:28] I have to report something.

[00:38:29] So I put mine on energy again, because I'm trying to kick caffeine and I, and that little voice in my head said after today's show, go get a bang energy drink. It's like grim. When we were kids that cartoon that had the good angel and the bad angel and the devil on one side, it's like talking to you. So I took the app during the commercial and I put it on the energy and awake mode because I have headphones on, there are certain frequencies.

[00:38:55] I can actually hear transmitting through the bone and my arm, [00:39:00] into my ear. I can hear them certain  and then it fades away. So there's certain energy frequencies that are literally transmitting through the bone in my wrist. And through my whole. So that means that it's not just the nervous system and yeah.

[00:39:18] Your arm that is being affected. But pretty much, as you said before, the closer to the proximity, the more energy, but the whole body is getting this fibrate message.

[00:39:26] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:39:26] Isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And again, it's the same path with someone you like, just holding your hand on a bad day, right? It's, it's a feeling that encompasses the whole body all the way to the, to the brain and to our attention and what we're thinking about.

[00:39:40] My, my favorite location, I think probably the favorite overall is the ankle. If you haven't tried the ankle yet, I would definitely give that a shot. I think part of the reason why we, people like that more is because. The, um, it's a little bit out of the way for those of us who don't always wear things on our wrists, but, or do a lot of work with our hands, but the, um, it, the [00:40:00] bones of the leg or the densest bones in the body.

[00:40:02] And so the frequencies we use are very, very low frequencies and the base category of frequencies. And so we believe that, you know, the bones of a leg are probably transmitting these a little more effectively than the arms, which are skinnier than most people.

[00:40:16] Carl Lanore: [00:40:16] We have a large number of the population that suffer from neuropathy.

[00:40:19] And it's usually in the legs and the feet. Do you have to feel it in your ankle for it to work through your whole body? If you have a neuropathy and you put this on your ankle, you may not feel the, the localized effect of the vibration. Like I can feel it right here right now. Does that change its effectiveness?

[00:40:37] Was it still going to do its job?

[00:40:39] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:40:39] So in the clinical studies, it doesn't seem to make a difference if you consciously feel it or not. But from our self reports, typically the best results happen when people it's sort of at what we call the sensory threshold. So it's where people just start to feel it, but it's not distracting, which is what keeps us present.

[00:40:55] Um, there are people who get benefits from it without being able to [00:41:00] necessarily consciously be aware of it at the time and feel it all the time. But yeah, at that sensory threshold is really where people get the best results. So you adjust it and where wherever is easiest for that, um, is what we were here.

[00:41:11] Carl Lanore: [00:41:11] So, so when I advertise the show on one of the social media outlets, it's somebody came up and said, I, I bought it when he was on Ben Greenfield show and it didn't do anything for me. And then naturally my social media person, Natalie, and Dan started asking questions like what w what, you know, and of course, People make statements.

[00:41:31] They never come back and qualify them. Do you have a certain number of non-responders and if so, what, what, why, why are they non-responders. So

[00:41:41] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:41:41] there are occasional numbers wanders. We didn't really have any complete non-responders when we did the studies in the lab. And I think part of the benefit of being in a lab is that you can measure people more sensitively.

[00:41:52] And we took time to test a whole bunch of different frequencies on people and to kind of like tuning to their body. Right. So if one didn't work, you can try [00:42:00] a different one. And in this case we were the ones running the operation. So we knew exactly from the beginning, what, the way to deliver it, to get the best results.

[00:42:09] And I think this is part of the challenge of, of creating a consumer product is you're creating something that was an idea in a laboratory at a university, just like. Two or three years ago, you know, and, and encapsulating that into a device that people can then buy anywhere in the world pretty much. And that is a very difficult task to do when it's something that's such a new kind of technology.

[00:42:32] You know, when you're really like, well, what other devices are there out there that can change the way you feel or help you change the way you feel and help you restore that center of peace and calm and you in a moment just like you had earlier, right? There's not a lot of technologies that can do that.

[00:42:48] Okay. And so helping. It's, you know, part of the burden is on us to, to then educate them the user, to understand how to use the technology and how to get the best out of it. And we're a young company and we [00:43:00] only have like 10 employees. So we're really learning how to do this on our own. And, you know, we appreciate people's patience with the process because.

[00:43:06] We're not necessarily conveying all the best information right away. We do the best we can. We do a lot of market research. We ask people what they want to hear and then we modify and then we do it again. You know, we just, you know, we appreciate people giving us specifics about what they're struggling with, because that helps us just make a better product, you know, and get closer and closer to something that will.

[00:43:25] You know, meet everybody's needs. I think in the long run, what we can look forward to in the next year, that's going to be very exciting, is more personal, is that personalized features. So really learning about our users and then. Developing personalized schedules for them that helps them get the most out of Apollo throughout their day.

[00:43:42] Carl Lanore: [00:43:42] I have a category for you. So anything that has to do with sex is big. We know that, right? You're, you're, you're a psychiatrist. So, you know, it's, you know, people wonder why sex is so important. Well, from an evolutionary perspective, it's job. Number one, Maslow has never came into the picture when it came to sex, it was all about [00:44:00] procreation.

[00:44:00] Furthering the species. There's a large number of men out there today that nonresponsive we've done shows about this too. Traditional erectile dysfunction therapies. The reason is. The erectile dysfunction is coming from an overwhelming level of stuff. Stress, anxiety. That seems to, that seems to, yeah, they become harder to control or maybe there's an alostatic static accumulation.

[00:44:25] As we age, we tend to become less tolerant. We, we, we fly off the handle easier and we worry about things more often. I would love to see men who are not helped by PDE five inhibitors. Specifically, uh, that we know that these guys it's really is in their head. It's not in, not in the little man. I would love to see these guys use this for a month to take themselves down and down and then try using it before a sexual encounter.

[00:44:58] If in fact their [00:45:00] erectile dysfunction goes away, I think that would be a fascinating study. And I think that would blow you guys up.

[00:45:06] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:45:06] I agree. That would be a fascinating study. I think that there's a, there was a good shot of it. You know, I think what we see and what we know from the understanding of the fight or flight, you know, autonomic nervous system earlier, is that.

[00:45:17] When you're in a perceived threatened state, the last thing that your body is diverting resources to is your little guy or your reproductive system. Yes,

[00:45:26] Carl Lanore: [00:45:26] yes, yes, yes.

[00:45:27] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:45:27] So, so, so these are, uh, so this is, there's an important, hard wired physiological pathway that, you know, exists for a very good reason, as you said earlier.

[00:45:37] And I think it's up to us to learn, to train ourselves, to restore calm. Over time and Apollo is a training tool that helps do that. So I think it's absolutely possible that it can help with that. Um, there are a lot of exciting studies on the way.

[00:45:51] Carl Lanore: [00:45:51] So I want to go on the record of saying that when we first got these things, I thought it was BS.

[00:45:56] I really did. I was like, Oh man, come on. How, how can this [00:46:00] little vibration on my wrist make a difference? And I've been using it now for about a week. And I noticed definite changes in my behavior and the way I feel. But today was the acid test. I was texting Dan and Elisa. I'm like, he's not here. We're going to have to cancel the show.

[00:46:17] And I was really in like a freaked out mode. And then I thought, you know what? Sorry, let me, no, no, no, this was great. No, no, you couldn't have planned this. And I thought, let's just see if this thing really works. And I put it on the relaxed mode and it was like, The only, the only time I, I experienced this was, uh, um, when I was power lifting and I was using lots of, uh, uh, drugs.

[00:46:44] Um, I, I didn't realize like I was up here all the time. My blood pressure was up here, you know, I was, and I went to the hospital one day with uncontrolled high blood pressure and they gave me a shot of lorazepam. And all of a sudden, I said to the nurse, [00:47:00] something's wrong. She says what? I said, I think I'm dying.

[00:47:03] She goes, why? I says, I don't know. I just don't feel right. And she looked at, she said, well, your blood pressure. Just go Molise you. This is where you should be. You've been living up here so long that down here doesn't feel normal to you. That's the only other time I felt that sense of being a washed with calmness.

[00:47:20] Was today when I put this thing on, on the relaxed mode and I was like, Oh, you know what? There's no show today. There's no show we're not going to work. No, it was great. It was great. It was great. It

[00:47:29] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:47:29] really, this reminds you, it's not a life or death situation, right. This is not a life or death situation.

[00:47:35] The body can instantly calm down and then you can spend the time more useful, figuring out what to do.

[00:47:40] Carl Lanore: [00:47:40] Yes, exactly. Because if you feel like you get calm, you realize, Oh, That's a great point. It's like your mind is playing a trick on you making you think that this is life and death, and it's really not.

[00:47:50] Listen. I want to thank you so much for being here. I want to plug the website, a URL one more time. It's S H R network.biz/apollo neuro. Uh, check it [00:48:00] out. Get 15% off. This is absolutely worth your money. If you are someone who doesn't fall asleep, BZ, you become agitated easily. You find it hard to focus PTSD.

[00:48:11] If you've been diagnosed with PTSD, give this thing a try. It really, really does work. And I'm telling you, it worked for me today cause I was about to go ballistic and I was like, nah, it's all good. It's all good. Listen, dr. Raven. Thanks for being here today, brother.

[00:48:25] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:48:25] Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

[00:48:27] Carl Lanore: [00:48:27] Take care. We're going to take one quick commercial break. And when we come back, we're going to do a little education. This is biology one Oh one. We're going to learn the meaning of the terms, gram positive and gram negative, and why it's even important to us. So stay tuned. We'll be right back with more superhuman radio.

[00:48:52] You were listening to the superhuman channel. Don't hate us because we feel good.

[00:49:02] [00:49:00] Welcome back to superhuman radio. So you ever meet somebody that you start talking to and you think, man, I like this guy and I want to have him on the show. Well, that happened last week when Dan Kubicki put together a call with doctor Neil Bosch. Not did I pronounce that, right? Yeah. Badge snaps. Yeah.

[00:49:22] Okay. And we started talking and next thing you know, like a half hour, 40 minutes just flew by and it was like, man, we could just talk about this all day long. And I thought I got to get him on the show. And what better way to get them on the show. Then we always get people talking about elevate, you know, Oh, you got to elevate, you gotta elevate, but they don't want to crack a book and pick up a dictionary and learn a new word.

[00:49:45] And so I thought to myself, you know, what's really a good idea. We're going to have a doctor Neil on the show, and we're going to talk about gram positive and gram negative bacteria, because we hear this term used [00:50:00] all the time in the media, on podcasts and people just shake their head and they go, yeah, like they know what it is, but I don't think people really understand, uh, before we get into the topic, we have to talk about you and your clinic.

[00:50:13] You're located in Baltimore. I know in Maryland, right in Maryland. Yeah. Okay. What city in Maryland are you located in?

[00:50:21] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:50:21] Just outside of Annapolis? The practices in

[00:50:24] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:50:24] Arnold, Maryland.

[00:50:25] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:50:25] Yeah. Just so

[00:50:26] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:50:26] about a mile North of

[00:50:27] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:50:27] Annapolis, a state Capitol.

[00:50:28] Carl Lanore: [00:50:28] And what is the name of your clinic? Uh,

[00:50:31] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:50:31] the Institute for human optimization.

[00:50:33] Carl Lanore: [00:50:33] Okay. Why this? I mean, you're, you're a traditionally trained doctor. Why human optimization?

[00:50:42] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:50:42] To me, it's the only thing that makes sense,

[00:50:46] Carl Lanore: [00:50:46] treating individ, individual illnesses and diseases, optimize the human being and they stay

[00:50:54] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:50:54] exactly because if you look at how mainstream medicine operates, uh we're, you know, they're [00:51:00] trying their best to work with downstream, you know, disease conditions and imbalances by.

[00:51:05] Using their tools and pharmacological therapies that are intended to modulate these pathways that are due to imbalances, typically in primary care associated with protein, I'm sorry, sugar, fat, and salt. So that's your diabetes. Your dyslipidemia or high cholesterol and you're hypertensive the patients.

[00:51:27] So we're trying to work downstream to modulate those pathways, to normalize, you know, the, the sugar, fat, and salt, but we're not addressing the root cause, which could be dietary in nature. It could also be genetic in nature. So for me, I think it's really about looking at the individual, um, their dietary habits or lifestyle habits, their genomic blueprints, and connecting those molecular dots to make informed decisions about how to better cure rate an individualized protocol, leveraging the most available, um, [00:52:00] progressive technologies that are available out

[00:52:02] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:52:02] there.

[00:52:03] Excellent.

[00:52:03] Carl Lanore: [00:52:03] Excellent. Okay. So now let's talk about the topic at hand. What is meant when, when they talk about gram positive and gram negative bacteria.

[00:52:14] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:52:14] Okay. Yeah. So, you know, first of all, just looking at the difference between what's known as a eukaryotic cell versus a prokaryotic

[00:52:21] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:52:21] cell.

[00:52:22] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:52:22] So humans and algae and algae, and, uh, mushrooms and

[00:52:28] Carl Lanore: [00:52:28] funds, right.

[00:52:30] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:52:30] One guy within that eukaryotic spectrum and they have different rivals, almost sub units that is different from a

[00:52:36] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:52:36] poke Heriot itself.

[00:52:38] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:52:38] Which is going to be your bacteria, essentially that have a differenc rival Sobol sub unit. But what makes a difference between a gram positive and gram negative has to deal with their outer cell wall composition.

[00:52:49] That composition is made up of different structural molecules, fats, sugars, and proteins, and, um, And it influences it's, um, [00:53:00] nature of binding and where they're found within the body, within the environment or wherever it might be. And, and the gram positive versus negative, or first to the gram stain, which influences, you know, each bacteria's ability to absorb that stain into that outer cell wall.

[00:53:19] And it's going to differentiate it simply from, you know, very basic level of whether or not it's gram positive gram

[00:53:25] Carl Lanore: [00:53:25] negative. So, let, let, let let's stay with this for a second. So Graham refers to the stain there, right? Used to stain the, whether it's sputum or blood or whatever, to give it color and contrast.

[00:53:40] So it can be observed under a microscope, right? Correct. Okay. So Graham has nothing to do with the weight of. The cell see that, that I think a lot of people, when they hear gram positive gram negative, they think, Oh, gram has weight and metrics. So they must be. But Graham is actually, w I wonder if Graham was the name of the guy who [00:54:00] discovered that particular dye, because, um, methylene blue is like the oldest dye in the world.

[00:54:09] And that used to be used to stay in things too. So do you know where the word Graham comes from in the, in the discussion?

[00:54:17] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:54:17] I believe it was from, uh, the original researcher. I want to say it's Albert Graham.

[00:54:23] Carl Lanore: [00:54:23] Okay.

[00:54:24] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:54:24] So it, yeah, it refers to the individual who discovered this process of staining and adapt to it.

[00:54:31] But there's so many different stains that are available out there, especially in the realm of immunohistochemical staining that go in and. Bind to these different, you know, especially when it comes down to, uh, autoimmune disease, the different histone types, you know, with your lupus patients, they have a different staining potential that differentiates a different types of lupus.

[00:54:49] Um, topically speaking, um, through those binding paths. Yeah. Ways, but, you know, basically speaking, it just has to deal with, you know, the actual stain, uh, nothing to do with weight or [00:55:00] volume. Um, and it has to deal with that outer cell wall membrane, which is actually really interesting conversation because that leads into how that affects the pathogenicity of the microbiome and its response to various antibiotics.

[00:55:15] So we have, you know, typically, um, Gram positive, um, strep and staph that live in our skin and then grant negative intro, um, intro Coxie, uh, that live within our gut. And so like Clostridium and all sorts of other unique bacterias that bacteria that live within our large intestine and small intestine. And, um, And they're found in different, you know, resident population and influence a lot of things because they actually, there's a gut brain access and we're feeding them those, you know, the, the, the microbiome within our body.

[00:55:51] Yeah. And it has the ability to respond. In various ways. So the various signals and inputs that we're putting into our cells and in our [00:56:00] communication. So it's, it's, uh, just again, you know, it's very interesting in the context of looking at how the microbiome, um, how's the different areas of the body has different microbes that live within, um, starting with the oral, you know, oral microbiome and the train within there and the  versus, you know, the trip.

[00:56:18] Yeah. Dental Cola and how that's actually, you know, associated with various, um, Diseases and pathogenicity is including Alzheimer's neurodegenerative disease and cardiovascular disease.

[00:56:31] Carl Lanore: [00:56:31] So, so is it a gram positive status or gram negative status? Always associated with a bad. PA pathogen a bacteria or no.

[00:56:42] So that has nothing to do with whether or not the fact is they are just able to be stained with that, that particular stain. And they, they hold it in their cell wall. If they don't, then they're gram negative. Yeah.

[00:56:55] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:56:55] Yeah. And it just, it just refers to, again, outer [00:57:00] cell wall. So the difference between a grand positive typically is that they have more of a, what's called a peptidoglycan outer cell wall composition, which actually takes up more of that gram stain.

[00:57:10] And has it a little bit more on the bluish color where the gram negative bacteria has more of what's known as lipid a composition and doesn't take it up as much. And it has that reddish kind of color. So differentiating, you know, in the lab. When I worked in a microbiology lab in Orlando, Florida at, um, Orlando or MC I was doing my undergraduate studies and molecular microbiology and medical laboratory science.

[00:57:35] And I had the privilege of working with, um, the great, uh, the late dr. Um, Walsh, uh, who is, uh, their micro director there. And we've had amazing conversations about this notion of mano morphism and Pleo morphism that gets into terrain theory that, you know, some of the docs talk about in regards to, um, you know, the cellular mill, you and looking at the terrain, Anton Bashar

[00:57:57] Carl Lanore: [00:57:57] versus Louise pasture

[00:58:00] [00:57:59] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:57:59] versus, you know, terrain theory and things of that nature.

[00:58:02] But. Long story short, you know, we just use this as a, the basic molecular or the same. It's not even molecular cellular tests. Okay. To differentiate positive from negative. And that's in on the micro side, you know, it's grown on different ag, ours in the lab, you know, so if we could get a, whatever, it is a urine, a urine analysis that goes to culture, you're going to Pat it plated on something McConkey egg.

[00:58:26] which is a form of media that grows these different bacterias that are going to be there. Yeah. It

[00:58:31] Carl Lanore: [00:58:31] used to be in the Petri dish when we were kids in Hunter college. Yeah.

[00:58:35] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:58:35] So, so as we're growing out things on the Petri dish, the next step is going to be testing its, um, sensitivity to various antibiotics depending on the clinical

[00:58:43] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [00:58:43] situation.

[00:58:44] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:58:44] So again, it's not good or bad, but just more so, um, you know, differentiating factor between that peptidoglycan membrane versus the lipid egg.

[00:58:55] Carl Lanore: [00:58:55] So your Cara sites have, have a nucleus, isn't it? One of the major [00:59:00] difference that you Cara site has a nucleus and a ProCare site does not.

[00:59:03] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:59:03] Correct a nucleated.

[00:59:05] Exactly. So procariates lack a nucleus and we have a different form of DNA structure, comparatively, an RNA structure compared to these microbes. And, um, one of the interesting things about that is the, uh, ties into mitochondria. Is the, what is known as the endosymbiotic biotic theory? I don't know if you've heard of that footballing here essentially, you know, based on a evolutionary biology perspective, the, uh, the eukaryotic cell acquired, um, a former what's known as cyanobacteria, which is, or in bacteria, and they develop this mutualistic symbiotic relationship, which, you know, then as we know, in a modern cell biology term, Is the mitochondria.

[00:59:54] So

[00:59:54] Carl Lanore: [00:59:54] essentially

[00:59:56] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [00:59:56] the endosymbiotic theory, it just essentially refers to this [01:00:00] evolutionary process for which we acquire that, that cyanobacteria form. And now there's this different form of, um, DNA within ourselves. And it's interesting because the mitochondrial DNA is also strictly maternally inherited, right?

[01:00:14] Right. Well, you know, from a microbiology perspective, there's so many different avenues or things that we could look at, you know, in regards to how the evolution of man with its environment and how we've developed, even our blood group antigen systems as a part of this microbial world.

[01:00:34] Carl Lanore: [01:00:34] Because technically when we look at mitochondria.

[01:00:37] We became infected by it and then came a part of, uh, our cell and as, and it contributed to our development because it had this ability to create for the cell, but it was originally, and in fact, it's something, we kind of, it wasn't like, uh, you know, a lot of people like to talk about 'em. Intelligent design.

[01:00:58] No, you, you, you, [01:01:00] you caught something and, and all of a sudden, as you said, it was symbiotic with us and we got along with it and it actually allowed us to develop better and we helped it and it helped us. So yeah, I know. It's, it's, it's really fascinating. It's, it's hard to wrap your head around that because from an evolutionary perspective, we're talking about back in the primordial ooze.

[01:01:19] Now that way that this all kind of this party started, you know what I mean? Um, I read once a while I was reading a study about the microbiome and we all focus on microbes. In fact, we call it the microbiome. It's like it's microbes. But the reality is that fun guy that lives in our stomach is more intelligent than the microbes.

[01:01:41] And because they are your parasite, and this is evidence that there are certain fun guy that will actually. Corral and use micro the way we, the way we raise animals and vegetables to feed. And so there's certain fun [01:02:00] guy in the stomach that like what this particular microbe poops out. When he eats your food.

[01:02:06] And so they go, Oh, let's get. And so they gather them almost like a sheep herder and they keep these microbes with them everywhere they go, because they're more intelligent than the microbes. They're exploiting the microbes to produce food for them. And when I read that, I thought, wow, this is really, really fascinating.

[01:02:24] Like we think of fungus says like, you know, Oh, and then it's actually, fungus is intelligent.

[01:02:31] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:02:31] Oh, very intelligent. The fungus among us, as they say, and separate phytic mechanisms for which they actually send out, they're degrading enzymes into the environment to help leverage that. But there is a dynamic interplay between the microbiome and the microbiome and, um, it also, it boils down to location and real estate.

[01:02:52] And, um, you know, in most cases, clinically, a lot of the things. Fungal infections are very opportunistic. Meaning when [01:03:00] we take antibiotics where there's this some sort of infectious process that clears away the resident microbiome, it leaves opportunistic growth for the fungus to cultivate and grow. And as you know, a lot of this fungus is, um, feeding on a dead and dying debris, cellular debris

[01:03:18] Carl Lanore: [01:03:18] or

[01:03:18] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:03:18] sugar, the fermentation of sugar.

[01:03:21] So it's actually, you know, from a. Very interesting evolutionary biology perspective. One of the things that I went on a journey on during my undergraduate studies was this notion of PLE amorphism and how that influences, you know, our clinical response to the microbiome. Infectious disease and so on and so forth because we're so quick to reach for clinically antibiotics in a lot of cases.

[01:03:50] And that's a whole nother discussion, but you know, these antibodies are working on these different cross. You know, if we go for a penicillin, for example, or beta lactam [01:04:00] antibiotics, they actually go forward with inhibiting. What's known as nag Nam, correct. Linking in the. The bacterial cell wall component.

[01:04:10] So it prevents the bacteria from undergoing what's known as binary fission, where it buds off and the cell wall is being there as an insulating factor to the environment. But the antibody biotic hits that process of binary fission, where it prevents that nag Nam cross-linking of those outer membrane peptidoglycan structures.

[01:04:36] And then theoretically leaves, um, the micro to it, Ironman to undergo what's known as osmotic Burke. So, but sometimes those microbes don't undergo osmotic bursts. So there's a difference between bacteria, et bacteria, static antibiotics, long story short. One of the things that's, um, I've I was discussing with a lot of my mentors, you know, and, and undergrad, um, in my majors, [01:05:00] microbiome Elegy is the development.

[01:05:03] Of what is known as cell wall deficient, stealth pathogens. Okay. There's a very fascinating book written by the late dr. Lyda madman from Yale university that looked at these stealth , which persists and evade within the system post antibiotic use,

[01:05:22] Carl Lanore: [01:05:22] you might have

[01:05:23] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:05:23] decreased the infection. Because we are, you got to keep in mind these, these outer membrane proteins, Oh, and peace buying too.

[01:05:32] It's known as toll, like receptors throughout our immune system and signal a immune response to deal with this infectious process and it through Cytokinetics signaling and all sorts of fun stuff. But, um, what happens is sometimes these microbes persist and they aren't destroyed by osmotic burst and they, um, Live in what is known as a cell wall deficient for you usually typically known as mycoplasmas or [01:06:00] ureaplasma is, and things of that nature.

[01:06:02] And, um, it was interesting because in Europe I studied this whole in undergrad, this whole system of European biological medicine, because it tied into the blood work. I do the microscopy blood work that I do analyzing a qualitative cell dynamics. I take a drop of blood, throw it on the microscope and I could show you bacteria in your blood.

[01:06:22] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [01:06:22] The blood is not sterile.

[01:06:23] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:06:23] Okay. We're learning this more now with this idea of what's known as possible. Prandial metabolic endotoxemia, which is essentially after you finish eating.

[01:06:32] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [01:06:32] And if you have

[01:06:33] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:06:33] what's leaky gut syndrome, Raj shedding, some of that, that

[01:06:37] Carl Lanore: [01:06:37] gram negative, I was just going to ask that depends on the gut, not doing its job and stuff, getting out of the gut before it's actually been processed and sent out through the elementary canal.

[01:06:47] So some of that stuff is getting into the blood that shouldn't be getting into the blood, which now you also are priming the environment for. Auto-immunity because now you're putting these things in the blood and the body's [01:07:00] going that shouldn't be here. Interesting. It kind of looks like thyroid tissue too.

[01:07:04] So let's just go after the thyroid too.

[01:07:07] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:07:07] Molecular mimicry. When it comes down to these proteinaceous molecules versus small peptides being absorbed intestinally. We're getting these larger protein motifs that are absorbed and they actually are triggered it immune system through a process known as molecular mimicry, thyroid, and gluten is a classic example, pretty well established in the literature, but also from an infectious point, you know, after, you know, camp will impact your Juni infections, uh, you know, some very bad diarrhea.

[01:07:36] It's been known to develop these, um, sero negative, um, inflammatory processes in the system and lead to some of the auto immune processes as well. So it's very interesting how the, these microbes interact with us and how it's very important to keep it in harmony and imbalance. And, um, One of the things that I, you know, I came across, that's no longer available in the U S I don't know why I [01:08:00] didn't want to get political, but is this idea of ISO pathic medicine?

[01:08:03] Um, the Germans, uh, have developed a very fascinating system of using a cell walls of bacteria, diluted and prepared in smaller concentrations or AK homeopathic dosing that goes in there and modulates the immune system. Awesome. And helps treat some of these chronic infectious processes. Um, there's various serological testing methods that you could do, um, uh, to identify what kind of, uh, remedy you may need based upon, um,

[01:08:34] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [01:08:34] just basically taking a

[01:08:36] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:08:36] drop of blood.

[01:08:37] Putting it on a sheet, taking a drop of, um, the microbial cell wall solution and seeing if there's a gluten nation, very similar syrup, serological testing, that's performed in blood bank when you're going in for transfusions. So there's like a whole system of medicine out there. And Europe that they're, they're leveraging this kind of advanced, uh,

[01:08:57] Dr. David Rabin, MD: [01:08:57] testing and treatment.

[01:08:59] Carl Lanore: [01:08:59] We have four [01:09:00] minutes left real quick. So as we age, we know the gut becomes. A problem. Could it be as simple as the fact that through a constant barrage with antibiotics, we also know that a lot of, um, uh, herbicides today are actually anti-microbial in nature and let's face it. The ditch when anti-microbial and antibiotic is dosing duration.

[01:09:24] And so could it be that the gut ends up. Switching real estate from the microbes to more fun guy. And that could actually be why we develop these problems as we age.

[01:09:39] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:09:39] So there, that's a very loaded question on a molecular level. One of the papers that I wrote for my undergrad. Yeah. What is called, um, a horizontal translocation of plasma that refers to genetically modified foods.

[01:09:53] So when you look at GMOs as a whole, they they're actually infused with something called BT bacterium. And [01:10:00] the bacterium is a plasma carries extra chromosomal DNA into the plant structure. So when the plant is sprayed with. Glyophosphate or whatever, you know, Roundup, whatever it is, it's going to be resistant to that herbicide fungicide pesticide.

[01:10:14] Right now, the research that has looked at this horizontal gene transfer. When you eat the food, your microbiome. Picks up those plasmids and is now producing the same resilience factors at that plant.

[01:10:31] very fascinating. Papers have been put out that looked at that gene transfer. And of course the herbicides fungicides are going to disrupt. Or indogenous microbiome if we don't eat organic in most cases. And, um, it's going to lead to potential opportunity to growth in a candida overgrowth or whatever it might be or dysbiosis, and the whole balancing of that bacteria.

[01:10:56] There's so many levels to it

[01:10:58] Carl Lanore: [01:10:58] where we're getting bombarded [01:11:00] is the truth that we really it's so hard to figure out where much of this is coming from, because we're bombarded from so many different angles with chemicals. In our environment. Um, it's no wonder that people are having the problems that they're having today with disease States.

[01:11:14] I want to have you back on the show. I think you're fascinating. I want to do this today so that I really want to help elevate people. I want people to understand when they hear something, what gram positive gram negative means. It just means that this particular dye sticks to it or doesn't stick to it.

[01:11:32] And so. It doesn't indicate that it's a pathogen or not a pathogen. A and I just want them to get that out of the way today. We're definitely going to have you back on the show. Uh, and, and I love what you're doing. Tell people, uh, your, your website URL, please.

[01:11:46] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:11:46] Oh, thank you, Carl. I'm good. A pleasure. So my website is I F oh.org, uh, Institute for human optimization.org.

[01:11:54] I fho.org. And then also a nil badge, nafta.com. So, um, if you I'm [01:12:00] sure you'll put it in them. The notes.

[01:12:01] Carl Lanore: [01:12:01] Yeah. We already have a link for you in the notes too. Yeah.

[01:12:04] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:12:04] And also, um, you know, I'm going to make a quick pitch for my book that just came out the longevity equation, um, at least by angel publishing.

[01:12:12] And I'll send you a link on that one, if you could share with your listeners.

[01:12:18] Carl Lanore: [01:12:18] Yeah. And get me a copy so I can read it to when next time you're back on, we'll talk about the book. I'm going to

[01:12:22] Dr. Anil Bajnath, MD: [01:12:22] send it now to you.

[01:12:23] Carl Lanore: [01:12:23] Okay. Thank you. Thanks for being here today. I we're gonna, we're going to say goodbye and, uh, that's the end of today's show check out.

[01:12:30] Of course, Apollo neuro uh, go to the link SHR network.biz/a P O L L O N E R O to learn more and save 15%. The thing is legit. I'm wearing it right now. I put it on the, the focus I could get into this interview today, and I gotta tell ya it's. I actually feel different when I put it on. I'm going to try after the show to put it on the energy mode again, because I'm craving caffeine [01:13:00] today.

[01:13:00] And so, and I don't want to go have any, I will see you tomorrow with more super Yuma radio. Thank you for watching today. Please share the show. Help someone else become smarter. Okay. See you tomorrow.