[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] hey, Hey, welcome back to another episode of super human radio. Today is September 9th, uh, 2020. And today's, show's really exciting to me because, um, it's the culmination of many installments that we've done, uh, talking about sleep and memory consolidation over the years. Uh, we actually have some evidence on how it happens, uh, which is very, very exciting.

[00:00:23] We were talking about that during the first hour of the show. Uh, second hour of the show. We're gonna talk about. How to literally change your mood like that. So many of us, you know, we, we wake up in the morning and people theology wake up on the wrong side of the bed and you wish you could just start all over again, or maybe you've been bickering with your significant other, and you just wish you can do a reset.

[00:00:44] There's a way to do it. We're going to talk about that later in the show, before we get started with anything that of course I have to thank my title sponsor. Legendary foods. The website is eat legendary.com. The coupon code is SHR 10 for 10% [00:01:00] off of your low carb, high protein KIDO. Uh, no sugar, low sugar kind of person.

[00:01:05] If you really want to snack and stay in your little, there is no better company in the world than legendary foods. Eat legendary.com. Check out their tasty pastry. If you were. A fond lover of pop tarts when you were a kid, but you don't eat them any longer because they're garbage. They're not anymore. The tasty pastry is basically a pop tart with less than one gram of sugar, seven grams of high leucine, high quality protein, and less than three to four impact carbohydrates.

[00:01:36] Check them out. Legendary foods, eat legendary.com. SHR 10 is the code.

[00:01:43] Bring my guest on. Welcome to the show. Dr panties. Opolis. How are you?

[00:01:51] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:01:51] Hi, Carl, thank you very much for having me on your show.

[00:01:54] Carl Lanore: [00:01:54] Yeah, this is, this is, you know, we've actually talked about memory consolidation and [00:02:00] sleep and fragmented sleep and all timers disease, these dementia, uh, all of these, um, things that kind of fit into this nice, neat little wheel house that have been proven to be affected by poor sleep.

[00:02:15] But no one, I, you know, I used to say during sleep, the hard drive, uh, D fragments, you know, when you defrag your hard drive, it indexes everything. It puts it here. So it knows it's there. And that's an oversimplification of the dramatic changes that occur in the brain during sleep. It's phenomenal. We're going to talk about it right now.

[00:02:38] It's so fascinating. One of the things that. Um, well, before we get started, what made you look specifically at this, what research preceded yours that this was required?

[00:02:52] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:02:52] Okay. So there has been the, um, uh, large amounts of research and trying to understand the mechanisms behind memory [00:03:00] consolidation during sleep.

[00:03:01] Um, and, um, just trying to keep it concise to some extent, but there has been some for a long time, we knew that. Um, a good night of sleep improves memory when you that it, it it's critical for memory consolidation. Um, but we really had no idea why. Um, and we really didn't know much else in terms of the biological importance of sleep.

[00:03:25] Um, and the field of sleep research in general has just had a big breakthrough in the last 10, 15 years. Um, Because we've had excellent work from a group of researchers led by, um, uh, uh, Kiarra Terelli, um, and, and dr. Feloni, um, so they have created what they call this synaptic homeostasis hypothesis. Um, and they have shown in many, many studies that, um, as we're awake during the day, we create a lot of connections or synopses in the brain for every new piece of information we see in our environment, we just accumulate [00:04:00] connections.

[00:04:00] Um, and then during sleep, as you were saying, saying sort of this, the fragmenting process, um, we, we just basically consolidate these connections. We can't continue to accumulate connection. It was throughout life. The brain has a limitation. Um, so during sleep, but they have shown that you have what they believe as a broad reduction of connections or synapses.

[00:04:21] They're just downscaled is, is their term. Um, if they're broadly reduced, then we, we keep what are considered the important connections. Um, and we probably moved them, um, to other areas in the brain for longterm storage. Um, and during this time there's another group of researchers that have been creating what they call a complimentary alternative hypothesis, um, where they, they believe that, um, while you sleep, uh, memories are replayed in the brain probably.

[00:04:51] During slow wave sleep and to some extent in REM sleep. And then this replay of memory memories, they're transferred from the short [00:05:00] term storage area in the hippocampus to longterm storage areas. Um,

[00:05:05] Carl Lanore: [00:05:05] I mean, I, I, my, my neurons are accumulating right now. I have a lot of questions I want to, I want to get to them before they disappear.

[00:05:12] So yeah. Um, obviously we w when someone sees someone they haven't seen in a long time, or someone talks about them that night, you dream of them, that memory, that dream is probably a function of the brain putting that somewhere where it can find it later. Right. I mean, it sounds to me like memory consolidation drives dream States.

[00:05:33] Does it. It

[00:05:35] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:05:35] probably does. Yeah. It's been very difficult for, for researchers to prove this, but, um, a lot of the replay you see in terms of the firing of neurons neuronal networks, that you'll see the same pattern that that is created during the day during a particular learning task that is replayed and it's replanted in faster speed actually.

[00:05:55] Um, while you sleep in, particularly during REM sleep in that that's, what's believed to be. [00:06:00] Um, allowing the transfer of memories, um, to longterm storage areas. So yeah, it probably is part of dream States.

[00:06:07] Carl Lanore: [00:06:07] Do we set the hierarchy of what is considered a, make that a weak memory, make that a strong memory?

[00:06:12] How does the brain decide what should be stored as a strong memory and what should be faded away as a weak memory?

[00:06:20] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:06:20] That's an excellent question. So that's, that's something that a lot of researchers are looking at, including us. My collaborator here at university of Mississippi medical center, dr. Barbara Isabella.

[00:06:31] Um, a lot of her work is focused on, on that, on, and, and the perspective from her and from other researchers is it's, it's, it's weighted by what's considered biologically relevant. Um, so parts of your brain that are involved in emotional processing or reward. Um, for example, if you have a fearful situation, that's very critical that you remember that memory for survival.

[00:06:53] Um, and on the other hand, in terms of positive memories, if you, if something is rewarding in terms of food, it's very important [00:07:00] that you remember where to find food, um, for survival. So somehow, um, the brain, um, probably tags these memories, um, so that they're strengthened rather than, than eliminated during sleep.

[00:07:12] That's that's one of the current theories. And how this happens in the molecular level is still largely on

[00:07:18] Carl Lanore: [00:07:18] the so REM sleep happens towards the morning. Everyone in my audience wears at least one sleep tracking device. I use three. And so we understand sleep architecture, um, and the importance of, of, of sleep architecture.

[00:07:34] Every, every phase of sleep has a reason for occurring. Um, As you age, people tend to not sleep as well. They tend to wake up earlier and earlier REM sleep happens closer to the morning. Uh, and that's when dreaming happens, you know, a lot of dreaming, a deep sleep happens closer to the onset of sleep.

[00:07:57] Shortly after you, you fall asleep, [00:08:00] you start to go into your you're very slow waves. Yeah. So people who don't sleep. So if someone goes to sleep and only ends up with six hours of sleep because they wake up early in the morning, they're not having that REM these are the people that typically have memory problems.

[00:08:15] I've found.

[00:08:17] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:08:17] That's right. Exactly. Um, and, and since you're pretty familiar with sleep stages, then you it's correct that a lot of REM sleep happens closer towards the morning, but, um, we don't just gradually go from, from slow. Wait. Yeah. I go through the stages over and over, and then they they're more and more weighted towards REM sleep.

[00:08:38] As you go through the cycles. Exactly.

[00:08:40] Carl Lanore: [00:08:40] So, or having REM sleep later in the evening in the middle of sleep, I think for me, REM starts about at 1:00 AM in the morning. I have a PIP of REM. And then maybe about an hour and a half later, I'll have another PIP of REM. But as I get closer to about four 35, o'clock in the morning, now I have, they're not [00:09:00] pips any longer.

[00:09:00] They're longer durations. I stay in REM for longer periods of time. I stay in room for long. I think most people who who've tracked their sleep probably seek something similar.

[00:09:10] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:09:10] Exactly. That's correct.

[00:09:11] Carl Lanore: [00:09:11] Yes. Ma'am. So another thing that was fascinating is the body gets to rest at night. But the reality is that the brain is working harder at night than it is during wakeful hours.

[00:09:26] Right.

[00:09:27] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:09:27] Harder. Yeah. It's relatively, it's working.

[00:09:31] Carl Lanore: [00:09:31] It's busier. It's busy

[00:09:33] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:09:33] keeping busy. Yeah.

[00:09:34] Carl Lanore: [00:09:34] Yeah. And so the fascinating part of your research. I have never heard anyone use the words, brain and cartilage in the same sentence. We think of cartilage as this soft end of bones. Uh, we think of cartilage being in the joint, creating a viscous environment.

[00:09:55] Um, we think of cartilage being, you know, [00:10:00] allowing bones to move. Uh, be more flexible and pliable, but I've never thought of the brain has having cartilage. The brain. Does the brain have cartilage in the same way? Cartilage is, is it a rigid structure that helps to keep the brain shaped? So

[00:10:16] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:10:16] that was the original perspective of, of what we call brain cartilage.

[00:10:20] It's made out of the same, many of the same components that are in your joints, Conroy and sulfate, allergen, and, um, that I'm sure you're pretty familiar with, for joint cartilage. Um, But it was described from hundreds of years ago, back from the time of Camilla golgi when he was making his hand sketches of

[00:10:39] Carl Lanore: [00:10:39] the apparatus, right?

[00:10:40] Yeah,

[00:10:41] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:10:41] yeah, yeah. So he hadn't, he had some nice elegant structures of what looked like a meshwork around certain types of neurons. Um, and he called those perineural nets. Um, and, and as the field found out that they were composed of cartilage, they sort of discarded the importance of brain cartilage. They thought, um, as you [00:11:00] described that.

[00:11:01] It's probably there for per holding structure

[00:11:04] Carl Lanore: [00:11:04] coral, right? The coral is really the house and the living organism lives within the structure. So that was almost like the brain had this, uh, this cartilage in it to keep it formed and in shape and, and sturdy.

[00:11:17] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:11:17] Yes. Well, so it doesn't collapse on itself into a pile of mush.

[00:11:21] Um, and the, and that's, that's an, in one respect, part of the, the role of brain cartilage, it is important for that structural support. Um, but as we found out much more recently in the field of neuroscience, that brain cartilage is, is really complex and it has various roles throughout development, um, and adulthood in terms of maintaining many, many normal processes in the brain.

[00:11:45] Um, and its expression changes, um, very early on in development. Brain cartilage is expressed by migrating cells. And it sort of creates highways to tell cells where to go or neurons, where to go in the right location. [00:12:00] Um, but then the brain cutting continues to mature around late adolescents in a lot of brain areas.

[00:12:06] Now we know that, um, the cartilage forms, these particular structures that I mentioned, these perineural nets around certain types of neurons. And when these nets form. They basically restrict synaptic plasticity. So they're going to hold in place what the brain deems good connections. And then they prevent, um, the elimination of connections, but they also prevent the formation of new connections.

[00:12:30] Um, and this happens in a lot of brain areas around late adolescence. Um, and that's why we became interested in it about 15 years ago or so. Um, because I was in the research group where we were studying schizophrenia. Um, and we know that schizophrenia, the onset occurs around late adolescence and it's a disorder that's characterized by unstable synaptic, plasticity, um, and processing of information.

[00:12:58] Carl Lanore: [00:12:58] Wait, wait, hold it. [00:13:00] So this is something we talked about for a long time on the show. Um, a lot of these, uh, neuro neurological disorders like schizophrenia, even bipolar disorder. As you point out that the onset is during puberty and we know that sex hormones affect, uh, neural endocrine hormones as well.

[00:13:27] So I'm wondering if sex hormones play a role in the restructuring of cartilage in the brain?

[00:13:33] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:13:33] Um, I'm sure they probably do play an important role that has really been, not studied at all at the moment. Um, The fact that, um, we're looking at this one, the aspect of sleep is really, is really new, but even the idea of looking at brain cartilage, um, and structuring its role and structuring classes to these just within the last five to 10 years.

[00:13:58] Um, so there [00:14:00] have been some hints for sex, terrific changes, um, in brain cartilage, but there has not been good formal studies on this. I'm sure there are. And the sex hormones have an important role. Okay.

[00:14:13] Carl Lanore: [00:14:13] So, so to kind of recap, the brain cartilage is designed as a, uh, also as a containment. So neurons stay put, and, and the objective of making new memories is creating new synaptic connections, which means that neurons must have, they have to have the ability.

[00:14:36] To outgrowth or grow out of there containment, which means that not only do we have to stimulate neuronal sprouting, but we have to turn off this mechanism's whose role is to keep containment. How does that happen in during the short period of sleep? This sounds like, you know, this is, this is a [00:15:00] lot going on in, in eight hours at night.

[00:15:03] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:15:03] Yeah, it's it's it was a lot going on and you're right. That that's the, that was the critical question that led us. So our study is if, if these meshes of cartilage around neurons are preventing, um, new connections. Um, and how does that theory of synaptic downscaling that we've talked about earlier, um, for, from Sonoma and your family, how does that happen during sleep?

[00:15:26] Um, the, the two just don't fit together. There has to be some adjustment. On on the cartilage network to allow for reorganization of synapses that otherwise nothing would change. Um, so that we have hints in the literature, um, from the last few years from, from basically from fear conditioning studies, where they introduce a fearful memory to a rodent, um, and they learn to associate, um, a tone to a foot shock, for example, Or memory studies where they for reward, where animals learn to associate an [00:16:00] environment with, um, with cocaine or another re rewarding substance.

[00:16:03] So from those studies, they've shown that, um, these matches of cartilage are actually graded in a pretty rapid manner by endogenous protein. Is that the brain produces. Um, so they do, they, these proteases are upregulated pretty quickly. They create holes or basically chew up parts of these, um, cartilage nets.

[00:16:26] And they allow for formation of the synopsis for the reward, the drug memory, or for the fearful memory. Um, and as that's goes back to what I was saying earlier about biologically relevant memories and how they're stronger, there's some excellent work from Barbara sorts laboratory. For reward memories for cocaine memories, where she shows that, um, this rapid degradation in the net allows for these synopsis to form, um, for, for the cocaine memory and then actively synopsis form the net reforms around the [00:17:00] synopsis.

[00:17:00] And basically it's, it becomes even stronger and it blocks those drug memories in place, and they're very difficult to eliminate. And that's part of the problem. Um, for, for drug addiction is those drug memories are really strong in

[00:17:13] Carl Lanore: [00:17:13] probably luck. This is, this is an important distinction I want, I don't want to just gloss over this.

[00:17:18] So a lot of people use the word addiction, erroneously, they'll say sugar is addictive. No sugar could be habit for me. It's a reward, truly addictive substances, rewire the brain, truly addictive substances harness. This, uh, this type of plasticity of the cartilage, obviously, and, and put it in, in gear so that, Hey, we want to connect more.

[00:17:42] We want, we want more of these neurons that love that chemical. We want to make this area bigger. That's interesting. So that, that plays a role in addiction, which means that through research, if we can figure out how to modulate and [00:18:00] attenuate. Uh, the cartilage cartilaginous changes in the brain. We may be able to reverse addiction

[00:18:09] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:18:09] exactly.

[00:18:10] Or at least create a strategy to

[00:18:12] Carl Lanore: [00:18:12] be able to.

[00:18:15] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:18:15] Yeah,

[00:18:16] Carl Lanore: [00:18:16] fascinating. Because I was going to ask you, um, I was going to wait later in the show to ask you this, but I'm just gonna throw it out since we're talking about addiction and, uh, neuroplasticity driven by. Chemical desires. You know, there's a lot of really good research coming out.

[00:18:32] Yeah. About drugs like LSD, um, the college of London that is doing some great research and major depressive disorder with it. We have a very, very significant and growing population in the United States, including me that micro doses. Uh, you know, because we are told that. That it can increase neuroplasticity and, and keep the brain growing, so to speak or youthful, so to speak.

[00:18:59] Um, [00:19:00] these drugs don't create addiction, uh, because they don't preferentially, uh, increase just this type of neuron. But what they do is they, they altered the trajectory of neurons and I met dr. Timothy Leary at. UNL V in 1987. And I had done a lot of acid as a kid when I, when I was in high school. And so we would, we were having this conversation and back then he said that those who were working in that field believed that, uh, LSD allowed the right and left hemisphere to communicate directly by directing neuronal sprouting, to go around the Corpus callosum.

[00:19:43] So the data sharing network of the brain was bypass. So that this is why you had a, what is it called? This kinesthesia you could, you know, you can see smells and all he said, and that actually has been proven now a few years, about four years ago, a study showed that [00:20:00] LSD rodents caused the right and left hemisphere to start sending neurons directly into each other.

[00:20:08] And, and, and so the, the reason I mentioned this is because this, this is another fascinating area to understand what turns that, that cartilage reformulation on and off, even outside of sleep.

[00:20:23] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:20:23] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And there are several things I'd probably do that

[00:20:29] Carl Lanore: [00:20:29] really. Like what.

[00:20:31] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:20:31] Well, it's some of the, the medications for, um, for psychiatric disorders for depression seem to be doing that.

[00:20:39] So, um, so selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, such as fluoxetine, um, from some of the limited rodent studies seem to, to decrease the cartilage, um, probably to increase, um, synoptic connections, as you were saying. Um, and valproic acid seems to have similar effects from what we know so far. [00:21:00] Um, but yeah, you bring up a really good point.

[00:21:02] Yeah. In terms of how site psychedelics at least load at low doses, um, have that potential to, to basically open up these windows of brain plasticity and it's something that's been brought up a bit more recently by a few researchers. We have a graduate student that's been very interested in, um, down the road, trying to look at how, how low those psychedelics might alter the brain cartilage.

[00:21:28] Um, and can that be used in a good way? Um, periodically. Yeah.

[00:21:33] Carl Lanore: [00:21:33] So talk about your research. So you, so you set out to discover if in fact this phenomenon was occurring, this reformulation of the cartilage to accompany memory consolidation, how did you do that?

[00:21:49] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:21:49] So, um, I have been studying, well, the that's probably known on that.

[00:21:54] So these structures that are formed by the cartilage in schizophrenia for a number of years, um, and we have [00:22:00] been doing it with human post-mortem brain samples, um, from people with schizophrenia and controlled donors. Um, so what I first it is I had this data set, um, and from the brain human postmortem brain samples in the few brain areas, Um, and this really difficult.

[00:22:19] Um, so, so look at things that are supposed to be cycling on the 24 hour scale, um, and that tissue samples at that point, um, and it's been a challenge, but, um, what we did is we adopted a method from another group, um, at UC Davis where they use, um, time of death as sort of a proxy for circadian time, um, for each subject.

[00:22:41] So in that case, if you have enough. Um, samples throughout the 24 hour cycle, you start seeing relationships. That pattern makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we did that, um, and we looked at our data set on paranormal nets and we saw that there was what appeared to be a circadian rhythm, um, in the [00:23:00] number of nets that are tagged by, uh, we use a plant lectin.

[00:23:04] That takes up a particular sulfation motif on the sugar chains of these molecules. Um, and that's a whole long conversation in terms of how these sugar chains are modified and goes into the, the complexity of these structures in the brand

[00:23:20] Carl Lanore: [00:23:20] name. They must, they must undergo some sort of flux as they become more pliable and malleable and or more rigid.

[00:23:28] And you can tell what stage of the, of the game they are at at a given time.

[00:23:33] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:23:33] Exactly. Yeah. And it can make them more chemo, repellents, or chemoattracting in a way. Um, and it's been one of the challenges, for example, in spinal cord research, looking at these, but I don't want to go too far off topic. Um, so we saw this rhythm, um, in our postmortem brain samples for Clagg private, normal mints.

[00:23:54] And you have to take everything with a grain of salt with post-mortem brain study. It gave [00:24:00] us a very big clue, but we had to confirm this. Um, so we went with mouse studies where we can control the environment. We can control the light dark cycle. Um, so we took groups of mice, put them in these well controlled, um, LIDAR conditions and running wheels, so we can measure their circadian rhythm by their locomotor activity.

[00:24:20] Um, so then we, we sacrificed these mice every four hours throughout the 24 hour cycle. And basically repeat the analysis on the brain structure that we did in human studies. Um, and this confirmed that, that these rhythms were real in these tags, paranormal, that structures in the brain. Um, we looked at a number of brain regions that are involved in emotional memory processing.

[00:24:46] Um, that's what we focused on, but they probably occur throughout the brain.

[00:24:52] Carl Lanore: [00:24:52] So does light play a role in this because rodents are nocturnal. Are they, or maybe I'm wrong? Rodents. [00:25:00] Nocturnal.

[00:25:01] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:25:01] Yeah,

[00:25:01] Carl Lanore: [00:25:01] exactly. So what does this say to the shift worker that works at Amazon and goes to work at at 10:00 PM and doesn't get home until 9:00 AM in the morning, then goes to sleep.

[00:25:13] Is, is this, um, inappropriate sleep? Hygiene, which it is, this is one of the diseases of modernity not sleeping at night. Does that affect the, uh, memory consult? We know it affects memory consolidation. Do you think it affects the plasticity of this cartilage?

[00:25:34] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:25:34] Uh, we believe so. Um, so if somebody is on that, um, that night shift for long enough, they wouldn't train.

[00:25:41] So their new cycle. Um, so at that point that after maybe once a two weeks, um, they, their memory processing would return. We would predict routes so relatively normal, but it's that, it's that changing back and forth from the night shifts. So they might have a night shift work for a [00:26:00] week or two, and then they have a few days off where they, we turn through a, uh, a normal schedule and that throws everything off and you have to retrain to the new cycle that that's a major problem for shifts work.

[00:26:12] Carl Lanore: [00:26:12] Is is, um, is it, let me see how I want to phrase this poor memory structure, like in dementia, like Alzheimer's disease and, and any disease that, uh, causes you not to be able to remember things. Is it more a result of. The lack of plasticity and the collagen of the cartilage cooperating with neuronal sprouting, or is it that it's just wide open, free form and everything is just going anywhere at once.

[00:26:39] Is it, is it, is it too constrained or not constrained enough?

[00:26:44] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:26:44] So, um, that's, that will depend on, on, on the disorder, of course. Um, so we believe that, for example, in schizophrenia, it's likely not constrained enough because you have. An absence or reduction of this brain cartilage. [00:27:00] Um, and, and that seems to fit with, with some of the symptoms of schizophrenia.

[00:27:04] Um, and, and I'm in charge of Alzheimer's disease. Um, we have some work early on in a few other labs, too, suggesting that these nets are really chewed up or degraded. Um, so it's probably. Um, it's probably that again, uh, a lack of constriction, but there's some work from a couple of other labs, UK James faucet, um, is, is one of them.

[00:27:29] Um, and yeah, and they believe that there's, so this is where it gets a little complex. The, the, the brain cartilage forms, these structures called paranormal nets, but there's also brain cartilage throughout that are not part of these structures. Um, and they have a different type of sulfation and a different type of property.

[00:27:50] Um, and they're, they're largely produced by astrocytes and microglia, some of the brain immune cells. Um, so it seems to be that in Alzheimer's. [00:28:00] Um, you probably, the evidence suggests that there's a lot of this, what they call it, contracting for sulfate. Um, that's highly restricted. So you may have less of these nets, but you have a lot of this other brain cartilage throughout, throughout the brain.

[00:28:14] That's restricting synaptic plasticity, it's restricting, um, neuronal connections in general. So they've been using a strategy where they try to target, um, this cartilage by, by reducing it. Um, to, to improve, um, memory processing and Alzheimer's.

[00:28:32] Carl Lanore: [00:28:32] And is it working if they're having any results?

[00:28:36] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:28:36] It's promising it's some right now it's studies in, in mice.

[00:28:40] Um, and they seem promising, but to bring it up to the level where we can try this on humans, it's still has a long way to go.

[00:28:49] Carl Lanore: [00:28:49] I want to take a quick commercial break. I've got lots more questions. This is fascinating stuff. And I'm. When we come back from the break, I want to, I mean, so, um, we have a scientist who [00:29:00] is coming on the show to talk about the fact that, and I've talked about this for at least the past eight or nine years.

[00:29:05] Osteoarthritis is a slow moving autoimmune disorder. It is, um, Akin to rheumatoid arthritis, but slightly different, but it's not a function of mechanical loading. We know that now because we know that obese people get osteoarthritis in their neck and their hands, and they're not mechanically loading their head.

[00:29:25] The head isn't that much heavier than the rest of us. And so we know that, uh, chondracytes are being attacked by inflammation. I want to talk about inflammation in the brain for a second and just kind of ask your opinion. I know this isn't necessarily something that. You're working on directly, but maybe you have some insights from colleagues or other research.

[00:29:44] Okay. Stay tuned. We'll be right back before Superman, but radio is the superhuman channel evolution just got kicked up a notch.

[00:29:56] Welcome back to superhuman radio. We're talking with dr. Harry . [00:30:00] We're talking about the fascinating research that gives rise to insights on how the brain actually forms memories. Uh, at night and stores them when you're you're asleep. I want to thank Chrissy's Fox. I couldn't think of the word synesthesia before I was saying kinesthesia.

[00:30:17] Um, so thank you for posting that also. I want to remind everybody, um, if superhuman radio has helped you in any way, shape or form, uh, would you please send you a story to us? Take your iPhone or smartphone pointed at yourself. Talk to me like you're talking to me, keep it under three minutes. Uh, and uploaded to SHR network.biz/your story.

[00:30:42] We're putting together a montage. I don't care if you leave, maybe you get something you don't like about me. Maybe I mispronounced words I I'm from Brooklyn. So, you know, put that down too, if you want, but I'd appreciate it. If you took a minute and sent me your story about what the show has done for you.

[00:30:57] Thank you very much. Okay. So. [00:31:00] This is kind of a, I know this is kind of outside the discussion that we're in right now, but it can't, it can't be ignored cartilage and chondrocyte to being attacked by inflammatory chronic inflammation. Chronic inflammation is a big problem. Today goes with obesity and insulin resistance and so on and so forth.

[00:31:20] I wonder if inflammation is playing a role in the degradation. Of the cartilage in the brain, the way it does the cartilage in the joints or the cartilage anywhere else throughout the body.

[00:31:34] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:31:34] It may be that that's a very important question. So it, it, that really converges on some of the work we've been doing for schizophrenia and some of our collaborators do for Alzheimer's disease because we know that the cartilage.

[00:31:47] In those disorders of the brain card, religious reduced. Um, and there's, there's a lot of research going on in terms of the role of inflammation in schizophrenia. Um, it, it [00:32:00] became a pretty populous area at that point. Not too long ago that they call, they say that the brain is on fire because a lot of the inflammatory molecules, at least a signaling.

[00:32:10] Cascades for those molecules are upregulated and gene expression studies in schizophrenia. It's been a complex question because, um, Nope. And he's been able to find the smoking gun for inflammation and schizophrenia. You just don't see. Um, activated astrocytes or, or activated microglia consistently in schizophrenia.

[00:32:30] So when this occurs and does it occur consistently enough? Um, has been an ongoing question, but, but we know that, um, these brain cells that are involved, um, in, in inflammation produce a lot of the indogenous proteases, um, that the grade brain cartilage. So they have the capacity, um, to cause this relation to the brain cartilage.

[00:32:53] Um, in an inflammatory state, uh, and we see some of these conditions. For example, we see hints of them [00:33:00] from, um, from spinal cord injury. Um, and from epilepsy, we see that for example, that there's a thick realization of a lot of these paranormal nets early on when there's an inflammatory condition or an injury to the brain or neural tissue.

[00:33:15] Um, let's say Kevin, with that, that gradation of the matrix, then you have a lot of, um, Cells immune cells and Agnes support cells that will just migrate for that area of inflammation. Then they'll start making a lot of that other conjuring sulfate that I mentioned earlier that people think is causing that restriction in Alzheimer's disease.

[00:33:36] It's just starts producing it all around that injured area, probably as like a, a quick way to try to control the situation. And, and, and that, in some ways it creates problems because it creates a lot of restriction for, um, rewiring or recovery of the brain.

[00:33:53] Carl Lanore: [00:33:53] Does, does schizophrenia affect a male or females?

[00:33:57] Uh, to a greater degree? Just curious. [00:34:00] Um,

[00:34:00] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:34:00] and in effect, both of them, there's some sex specific differences, but it's, it's, it's not really heavily weighted for one thing.

[00:34:07] Carl Lanore: [00:34:07] I was just thinking about that. So getting back to the discussion at hand about your research, which is fascinating to me, uh, we also know that there are dietary, um, contributions to the formation of cartilage.

[00:34:23] Um, uh, different types of collagen fibers, uh, vitamin C is critical in the formation of collagen into cartilage. Um, are there, uh, is there any room for discussion about a dietary role in helping this phenomenon in the brain occur? Let's see. So let's say you're getting good sleep, but there's still something missing the, the, the cartilage isn't doing what it's supposed to do.

[00:34:51] Could there be a dietary. A role here. That's

[00:34:55] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:34:55] the next one, one question. Um, and it's something that I've been discussing a lot with my [00:35:00] collaborative collaborator. Um, dr. Barbara Isabella here, she's really interested in the role of nutrition and dietary supplements and how they can help, um, brain processing.

[00:35:09] Um, and the difficulty was translating it at the moment in terms of these, these cartilage structures, is that, um, As we were talking about before there's different types of cartilage in the brain, then they have different rules and these structures that are involved in, in what we believe in memory consolidation during sleep, the perineural nets, um, they're highly complex.

[00:35:33] Um, and you can take things, um, in your diet that might promote. Um, some of the forms of brain cartilage are conjoined sulfate, but are they going to specifically promote formation, um, or strengthening of these structures? Um, probably not. And there has to be, um, there's something there that we're not unlocking yet.

[00:35:55] Some, some blue in terms of how, how can we get them to contribute to [00:36:00] these structures specifically versus contributing to that? Some of the other matrix that's our across the brain, maybe some of the matrix. Yeah,

[00:36:07] Carl Lanore: [00:36:07] the blood brain barrier is really a challenge. Right? I mean, so, okay. So here's an interesting thought.

[00:36:13] Um, about 10 years ago, I interviewed a doctor named dr. Allen Dunn, who has, since I believe passed away, cause his website has been taken down and he had, he was in Florida. And he used to do intra articular growth, hormone injections for people who were scheduled to have knee replacement surgery. And, uh, 20, I use, uh, in a collagen matrix directly into the synovial capsule once a week for three weeks.

[00:36:42] And then you went home and then you came back six months later. And in all instances, blood vessels infiltrated out of the knee. Cartilage Khan chondracytes accumulated and sure enough, he was regrowing cartilage. Now [00:37:00] a lot of people think this is fascinating, but anybody who's hung around the bodybuilding and powerlifting world for any length of time knows.

[00:37:08] Bodybuilders abuse, growth hormone take 10, 15, even 20 I'll use a day for, for weeks and months. They experience joint crowding the same way people with Agra Miglia do the cartilage grows so rapidly so greatly that it there's no room in the joint. They start getting pain in their, in their knees, in their hands.

[00:37:30] I started getting proud joints because you could see the joint is undergoing structural changes. So. Taking those two and putting that on the table. What about intra-nasal growth hormone?

[00:37:45] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:37:45] It's really, um, fascinating that you ask about that because that's, it's exactly what we've been working on with my collaborator, Barbara, Isabella, she's, she's been interested in growth hormone and how that's.

[00:37:58] Um, improving, [00:38:00] um, brain connection and she's had, she had a study, um, published back when she was in MIT a few years ago, um, where they, they showed that if you, if you increase growth hormone expression in the hippocampus, the area involved in spatial memory, contextual memory, um, using a viral vector in the mouse, um, you increase the number of, of connections or then druidic spines, um, and that brain area.

[00:38:26] And then if you, if you. Put those mice through, um, you're conditioning task, would they learn to associate a stimulus to a fearful memory? Um, the neurons that were expressing more growth hormone, um, I'm much more likely to participate in encoding that fear memory. So growth hormone is strengthening, um, memory processing.

[00:38:49] Um, and since then, since she's worked with me on this, the brain card with that, he's, um, we're trying to understand. Um, how growth hormones potentially can be interacting with, um, [00:39:00] the brain cartilage changes during sleep, because we know that growth hormone, um, systemically, um, throughout the body, um, cycles, um, during sleep.

[00:39:11] Carl Lanore: [00:39:11] Yeah, you get, you get, you get a very, very big pulse about an hour and a half into sleep. It happens usually during deep sleep. That's where, and then, and then, and men and women at pulses throughout the day, but the most significant production is right there during sleep.

[00:39:26] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:39:26] That's right. And we're looking at whether you're getting the same house in the brain for growth hormone.

[00:39:33] Um, and is that contributing to some of the changes we see, um, and brain cartilages and, and connections during sleep, um, and yeah, try and trying to use intra-nasal growth hormone administration. Would it be a great approach? It's

[00:39:47] Carl Lanore: [00:39:47] another thing to stack it with would be there's a, there's a fascinating peptide that is all the rage today.

[00:39:53] And you probably have heard of it because it's really becoming very mainstream and it's called body protection complex [00:40:00] BPC one 57 and it, a lot of athletes use it to speed recovery and soft tissue injuries. I mean, it speeds recovery. There are athletes out there like rock climbers. They've had brachial tendonitis for seven years.

[00:40:18] They do BPC one 57 for two weeks. It's gone and it's gone forever. So I would, I mean, was going to venture and, you know, I'm kind of a, uh, uh, part-time compounding pharmacist at home. So, um, I, I would use growth hormone and BPC one 57 and intra-nasal delivery and see what that does to the cartilage in the brain.

[00:40:40] That would be fascinating. My question to you is. The brain, um, is designed to be completely self-dependent. It makes its own insulin when it needs it, it makes its own, uh, extra dial from androgens through a romanticization. It does all these things on its [00:41:00] own because it does not ever want to depend on the systemic delivery of anything.

[00:41:05] So it makes it, it needs, but at the same time, doesn't systemic growth hormone. I mean growth hormone is produced in the brain and it's this it's deliberate systemically. If you're taking intro, if you're taking subcutaneous growth, hormone injections, doesn't it get to the brain.

[00:41:23] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:41:23] And that's been still a question we believe it gets to the brain.

[00:41:26] Um, there's people that still have a doubt of whether it crosses the blood brain barrier. And, and how effective is it? Um, and why, like you said, the brain produces its own growth hormone. Um, so it doesn't need to cross the brain, but administering intranasally would be, um, a more, more direct, efficient way for reaching the brain.

[00:41:47] But there are plenty of studies where people use growth, hormone replacement therapy for various disorders, um, where you do have changes in the brain with longterm administration, um, [00:42:00] and, and looking throughout the literature, um, there are changes within memory function, memory processing. Um, that you see sporadically throughout these studies.

[00:42:10] Um, so the, the potential is there for altering improving memory or in case of growth, hormone deficiency, um, memory deficits. Um, and as we were saying earlier, in terms of aging, um, as, you know, growth, hormone levels decrease with age, um, so that could be part of the reason why we have memory. Problems as we get older.

[00:42:33] Carl Lanore: [00:42:33] Th th th th the thing that really fascinates me about your research is that about six or seven years ago, I interviewed somebody and I'm so sorry. I can't remember his name. It was a fascinating discussion, but, uh, his research showed that facia of muscle that we think is just a structural, it's just there to keep muscle attached to bone, actually.

[00:42:56] Is kind of like a network, a communication network. [00:43:00] And this, this is seen in proprioception. Let's be honest, no one doubts proprioception exists. The golgi apparatus tells us not to push too hard to, so we don't share a muscle. So there's this constant communication going on. So soft tissue is becoming more and more fascinating to me and this just kind of adds to it.

[00:43:17] You know, we just ignore, we think muscle is everything but soft tissue, uh, is, is, is going to turn out to be an organ. You know how we just, just recently they said, Oh, you know, mussels and Oregon, we knew that fat could produce, uh, hormones. Now we know muscle produces hormones. And that next thing you're gonna say, Oh, soft tissues.

[00:43:37] It produces hormones. It's a, it's an Oregon, you know, it's like, it's all coming. We're going to take our last commercial break. When we come back and wrap up the discussion, I find this stuff very fascinating. If anybody has any questions. Uh, please post them. We'll be right back with more when reps with the weight of the world.

[00:43:56] welcome back. We're talking with dr. Harry, Pat, his [00:44:00] Opolis with talking about some fascinating research that shows just how the brain consolidates memory during sleep and why sleep is so important, why it's so important. So what, what do you want clinicians? To take away from this re research. We have a lot of physicians that listen to the show, a lot of scientists.

[00:44:21] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:44:21] So in, in terms of, um, for clinicians, we're not there yet and how to use this for clinical practice. Um, but I would like for clinicians to consider, um, basically the, the importance of, well, as they always do the importance of sleep, um, For memory processing as you, especially as you get older, but to start thinking about, um, how we can use our knowledge of sleep and memory processing, um, to treat people after a traumatic experience, such to prevent PTSD, um, on how we can use some of these strategies, um, to help people [00:45:00] overcome eviction.

[00:45:01] Well, we can, um, reward memories. Um, we're not there yet in terms of creating, um, some sort of. Compound or even using some leveraging some dietary compounds, uh, how, how to manipulate these proteases, um, and have some more control over this process. Um, but we can at least manipulate, um, sleep cycles. So maybe alter a traumatic experiences that are important to prevent sleep for a certain time window.

[00:45:32] Um, can that memory consolidation so that somebody doesn't develop PTSD? Um, and maybe we can use some of this knowledge on Friday to help people overcome reward memories.

[00:45:43] Carl Lanore: [00:45:43] If in fact, we know that benzodiazepines, one of the unwanted effects of using benzos for sleep is that impairs memory consolidation.

[00:45:53] And they use benzos specifically. Now, when someone has had a traumatic situation, a rape, ah, [00:46:00] you know, witnessed a murder they'll they'll, they'll give them out a van or some similar benzodiazepine. Not just to calm them down, but because it makes the memory seem further and further away, that must have a role.

[00:46:13] I wonder what it does to the cartilage.

[00:46:16] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:46:16] Yeah, exactly. That's a good question. It would be fascinating to see what it does to the brain cartilage, where we're testing a few, um, orally administered compounds at the moment to see if, if that can be. Prevent the degradation of the brain cartilage during sleep.

[00:46:31] Um, or can we promote the degradation of the brain cartilage when you were awake? Um, but it will be interesting to compare it to benzodiazepines and, and that's one of the problems of why, um, benzodiazepines. Yeah, they're a helpful sleep aid, but they're not a perfect sleep aid and there is no perfect sleep aid.

[00:46:49] Um,

[00:46:50] Carl Lanore: [00:46:50] no, because they all, they all alter sleep architecture. I'm not going to mention any names, but one of the most popular drugs [00:47:00] prescribed by doctors for sleep, um, has been now tied to the development of insulin resistance. And it makes perfect sense because. I say this on the show all the time. Um, if I hit you in the head with a hammer and you lay still for eight hours, would you get up and go, man, I had their best sleep.

[00:47:21] No, of course not. But you laid just because you lay still with your eyes closed for eight hours, doesn't mean you're sleeping. Some of these drugs, they make you lay still for eight hours. But you're not going through the rhythmicity of proper sleep. And that has all sorts of biological effects and probably memory too.

[00:47:42] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:47:42] Yeah, no, and you're right. It has very important effects from metabolism for, for the development of diabetes, cardiovascular disease. It's critical. And there is no good sleep, babe, that recreates proper sleep architecture, like you said, And [00:48:00] your analogy for hitting somebody over there, head with a hammer to, to help sleep.

[00:48:04] It's it's a good analogy for what people to people. A lot of researchers have been doing to manipulate, um, these primary neural nets, um, for the brain cartilage studies in mice, um, they use something called Conroy and they say BC, um, at which basically wipes out all, um, controlling sulfate in the brain.

[00:48:24] Um, and it's really like hitting the. The cartilage with the slope, such sledgehammer or a bomb and just clearing it out. So you're not only eliminate reading those, um, nets eliminating all of that support structure and causing a lot of short term changes within the brains. Oh, those, those studies, whenever we know from them, we have to take with a grain of salt.

[00:48:45] So that's why we're trying to create or come up with some compounds that we can administer to recreate the rhythmicity. More selectively in, in these private, normal Mets or in these structures that we think are involved in regulating [00:49:00] synopsis. We want to get more of a natural control over this process.

[00:49:05] Carl Lanore: [00:49:05] I think your work is fascinating and I hope. That we hear from you again, as you learn more, because this is really important stuff. I mean, this sleep is like the ocean, you know, we really don't know a whole lot. You know, we look out there and we go, there's a whole universe out there. We don't know anything about and sleep is the same way.

[00:49:22] We're just really starting to understand sleep. Now, I think for the first time,

[00:49:26] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:49:26] just at the beginning of our understanding, exactly,

[00:49:29] Carl Lanore: [00:49:29] this is fascinating stuff. Listen, I want to thank you so much for being here today.

[00:49:33] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:49:33] Oh, thank you very much. It's a pleasure talking with you and being on your show.

[00:49:36] Carl Lanore: [00:49:36] And I'm going to give intra-nasal growth.

[00:49:38] Homeowner, try. I have some growth hormone. I'm going to put it. I, I actually make my own, uh,  preparations at home. So I'm going to give it a try. Listen, thank you so much. I look forward to talking again. Thank

[00:49:50] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:49:50] you. Take care.

[00:49:52] Carl Lanore: [00:49:52] Uh, we're going to take 'em one more time. Commercial break in. When we come back, we're going to be joined by dr.

[00:49:57] David Ray, Raven, to [00:50:00] talk about. A way to change your mood like that. And I found out it works yesterday. Those of you who tuned into the show know about it. I talked about it yesterday, so let's do this. Let's take one quick commercial break. We'll be right back with more super human radio with my music Lynn.

[00:50:18] Brain's fine.

[00:50:25] welcome back. Well, joined by dr. David Raven, how you doing?

[00:50:30] Dr. David Rabin: [00:50:30] Good. Thanks Carl. Thanks for having me back.

[00:50:32] Carl Lanore: [00:50:32] Thanks for being here. So yesterday I came into the studio after a long weekend off, every single piece of equipment was dead. Yes. And I, and I had one that I had to be on the air in an hour. No, it was just a, Oh, I'm just going to go in and Tuesday's and easy day for me.

[00:50:54] The blueprint power hour coach Rodriguez does all the heavy lifting. I'm kind of his ed McMahon. Um, [00:51:00] I'm in I'm cool and calm. Every nothing's working. I'm like, what the hell is going on? So when I built the studio, I had come from clear channel. So I had come from a broadcast station and I know what equipment they have.

[00:51:14] And I have all the same equipment here that they had there. Well, I have this massive uninterruptible power supply that literally would run all the lights and everything in this office for days, if I needed it to. Because my, when I first started doing this show, my stream was up 24 hours a day, playing old episodes of my show.

[00:51:33] So I thought of myself as a radio station. Well, yeah, the ups went away when I realized what it was. I was so freaked out. I was like, I got to cancel a show. And then I thought about it. I grabbed my phone. I went to the app and I just turned on the relaxed mode. On my neuro

[00:51:57] Dr. David Rabin: [00:51:57] and I to work. You lost them, right?

[00:51:59] Carl Lanore: [00:51:59] Oh, it, it, [00:52:00] so all of a sudden it was the weirdest thing I just felt in control. All of a sudden I felt like, okay, I know what I can do. So I called around a couple of places. I know that carry heavy duty ups is like that. I have my motorcycle, so I can't go pick up a 60 pound ups. Okay. I go to my neighbor next door and Hey, can you drive me?

[00:52:19] Take my car. I, I, I came back. I plugged everything. I unplugged everything. I plugged everything in. I plugged it in everything and I did my show and I talked about it on the air yesterday. I, this Apollo neuro it, and I, and I said on the show yesterday, how would you like to be able to alter your mood on demand?

[00:52:40] How many times have we woke up, up in the morning and our significant other said, Oh, somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. And deep down inside, you know, I wish I could just flip it, switch, and I feel like this, I, I realized I don't like the way I'm acting and, and maybe it's just, I can say Apollo neuro did it because for [00:53:00] me it did just, they really calmed me down.

[00:53:02] But it's like, if you really, we are in a stage of your day where you think to yourself, man, I would give anything not to feel like this right now. Here it is. Go ahead. The app, turn it on, choose, choose a mode. And you're there. Getting ready to go to the gym. You don't feel like going to the gym, turn it on.

[00:53:19] Energize, go to the gym. It's really amazing. It's an amazing device. I don't think enough people understand. We talk about hacking about things that really aren't biohacks at all. This is really a biologic

[00:53:32] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:53:32] Jack. Well, thank

[00:53:35] Dr. David Rabin: [00:53:35] you. I really appreciate the way that you, you talk about it and the experiences you had.

[00:53:39] And I think, you know, one of the things that you, that you talk about that is

[00:53:43] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:53:43] so

[00:53:44] Dr. David Rabin: [00:53:44] well put is this idea of when we're under stress, because something bad happened or possibly multiple things happened that didn't go the way we expected. And it sets off that stress response inside of us. We start to worry.

[00:53:58] We started to have these [00:54:00] anxious thoughts and the concept we completely overwhelming. And I think when we do something like as like taking a deep breath in that moment or engaging activity that calms us down, if we have the peace of mind to do it, which most of the time we don't. But if we do, then it brings us a sense instead of present is that helps us understand the opportunities to fix the situation we're in, right.

[00:54:23] Whether that's improving our mood so that we can. Have a better day and not be irritable with our loved ones or whether it's fixing the ups and figuring out a solution to that without losing it, or whether it's going to the gym when we don't feel like going to the gym. Right. It's all of these trends, transitions that we don't expect that kind of, that's like throwing a wrench into the gear system.

[00:54:41] And then you have to figure out not just how to get, not just, okay, I'm going to get angry this, but what do I actually do to solve the problem and to do that? We have to be present with ourselves in the moment we have to. Bring ourselves back to the moment where the problem is occurring and recognize it as it is in the present.

[00:54:58] Only that we have the opportunity [00:55:00] to shift our outcomes from the situation, thinking about how angry we are, does not actually solve the problem. Right. It actually just makes it worse. So bringing us back to the present is really what reverses that, and that's what Apollo does. And that's what I did for you in that moment.

[00:55:13] And also in other situations, when you're really about to lose it, because you can't believe your entire system's down. You throw it on. It brings you turn it on. It brings you back into the present moment and you recognize, wait a minute, let's actually take a look at what's going on. Maybe I can fix this.

[00:55:28] You figure it out pretty quick. It's the ups you're raised to get a new one. You get one and you're back online. Right?

[00:55:34] Carl Lanore: [00:55:34] I did in my

[00:55:35] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [00:55:35] life.

[00:55:35] Carl Lanore: [00:55:35] I thought to myself, well, if I can't get ups, I just won't do a show today. It was like, before I used it, I was really angry. I'm like, I just have a four day weekend. I got to do a show today.

[00:55:49] The hell it was, but it just, so I had, I had, uh, an idea like at that moment time I saw myself when I was still married. [00:56:00] When two people start arguing and they dig their heels in and they don't even remember why they're fighting. They're just so dug into, uh, my sister used to say, Um, don't give up all your man or something used like some metaphor for like stick state, stand your ground, stand your ground.

[00:56:23] And imagine if both of them said, okay, turn your, turn your Apollo on. And then like, just reset. And they're like, Hey, what are we arguing about? I saw, I saw like a really cool, like Instagram video commercial, where they're both arguing about something that's stupid. They go to their Apollo neuros and they have a reset moment and they're like, Hey, you know what?

[00:56:42] Let's go get dinner. And everything is cool. Yeah. Because it really does. Whether it, as you pointed out just now, it's like just the fact that you try, that you use, it says to you, well, there's another way to handle this. Just that alone. Just the recognition of that [00:57:00] alone.

[00:57:01] Dr. David Rabin: [00:57:01] Yup. That's that's exactly right.

[00:57:03] And I think that's, you know, there is always another way, right? It's, it's important to stand your ground to a point, and then it's important to compromise and the whole way that we build relationships and that we maintain balance in our lives is through a constant compromise. We can't always, we can't always be right.

[00:57:21] And sometimes being right. Isn't the most important thing, right? Sometimes it's about, you know, finding balance, making. Other people happy making ourselves happy. And sometimes there's a balance in between there that you don't necessarily see, unless you take a moment to allow yourself to see it. And I think that's what we miss a lot of the time in these very overwhelming situations where we tend to jump from one extreme to another, but we're missing the opportunity for balance that lies in the middle and.

[00:57:52] I just had an amazing interview with dr. Phil Wilson, who is one of the leaders in psychiatry right now, worldwide. Um, [00:58:00] and he is talking about how health, which we often don't talk enough about this idea of what is health, right? What is it to achieve health in our lives? And then it's really just balanced bad things will happen.

[00:58:13] We can't stop those things from happening. Good things will happen. All we can do is try to increase the likelihood of good things happening as much as possible and enjoy them for as much as we can. Right. And to learn as much as we can from the bad things that happen without judging ourselves for that.

[00:58:29] And really just trying to make it a learning experience. It's just a balance and achieving, balancing different experiences is what leaves us feeling fulfilled and happy at the end of the day and grateful.

[00:58:41] Carl Lanore: [00:58:41] I think I want to spend a little time today in this discussion at first of all, my listeners can save 15% off the Apollo neuro by using the URL SHR network.biz/apollo neuro.

[00:58:55] So just go there and you'll, you'll be able to buy it, use it. It's fantastic. [00:59:00] Uh, Natalie, my social media, a person uses it every night before bed and she says it makes her go to sleep. I want to talk about what Apollo neuro won't do, because I think that there might be some expectations about what Apollo neuro does and that, you know, if you have unrealistic expectations, everything is going to let you down right.

[00:59:26] To Apollo. Neuro is not going to give you some euphoric feeling. You know, it's not going to make you go like, Oh, you know, like a drug. What it does is it shifts your attention and the vibration frequencies either elicit you to feel like I want to get up and do something, or I just want to chill. And those two things alone are the big impetuses for getting stuff done or relaxing.

[00:59:57] Now I'll tell you one of the ways I'm just about to start [01:00:00] using it. A lot of people talk about rest and digest. Today I was eating my food while I was working. And in my head, I was having a conversation with imaginary people, which I do regularly, um, and explaining why diseases, modernity shortening our lives and causing diseases.

[01:00:22] And yeah, one of those diseases of my journey is sitting here working and eating no other animal on the planet does that every other animal eats. While they're eating, they're eating your dog. Doesn't uh, scratch his, his ear with his right leg while his face is in the bowl. He's eating the lion eats. We are the only species on the planet that eats while we're writing a letter or filing our nails or reads the frigging box of cereal.

[01:00:52] Like, you know, it's like, even like, like we're sitting there eating, Oh, let me read the back of the box. And so we have lost the [01:01:00] ability. To truly rest and digest, and that's leading to GERD and all sorts of digestive problems. I am going to start using my Apollo neuro before every meal, before every meal, I'm going to turn it on to the relaxed mode for just a short, I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to do a lengthy period.

[01:01:19] I'm just going to try five minutes to get myself in that groove. And then when I eat, I'm just going to eat. I'm not going to do anything else. I just want to see what changes I notice over the course of the next couple of weeks. Yeah.

[01:01:35] Dr. David Rabin: [01:01:35] Yeah. I think that's a great, great way to start experimenting around. I think the meditation and mindfulness mode, I would recommend too for that.

[01:01:44] I think the, you know, going back to what you were saying earlier, you know, Apollo is not a drug. And we, we actually developed in the way we did, because I moved mostly work as an addiction psychiatrist. Uh, and I treat treatment resistant trauma and depression, and many of my patients have substance use [01:02:00] issues are either prescription medicine or recreational.

[01:02:03] Drugs that cause a lot of problems in terms of their, um, decreased ability

[01:02:08] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [01:02:08] to recover

[01:02:09] Dr. David Rabin: [01:02:09] from their illnesses. And so

[01:02:11] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [01:02:11] we

[01:02:11] Dr. David Rabin: [01:02:11] purposely developed a polo in the way we did to not be a drug. And it's not a magic button that you can press and expect. It's going to instantly change the way you feel automatically by itself.

[01:02:21] What Apollo is doing, thing is, as you say, Carl is it helps facilitate our catalyze, our own ability to change the way we feel.

[01:02:29] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [01:02:29] So

[01:02:30] Dr. David Rabin: [01:02:30] we all possess the ability to shift ourselves from.

[01:02:34] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [01:02:34] A calm state

[01:02:35] Dr. David Rabin: [01:02:35] to a more energetic and more a stress state in the case of going from rest to physical activity, uh, or to intense cognitive and focus at work and things like that.

[01:02:46] And we also have the ability to calm ourselves down and. Unfortunately, we're not often taught in our society how to do this as easily as we, you can breath, breath, work. For instance, changing the speed of our breath is the [01:03:00] fastest way to help us either ramp up with fast, deep breathing or ramp down with slow, deep breathing and fast, shallow breathing can also wrap us up.

[01:03:08] So there's different ways that you can get used to breathing differently to change the way that you. Feel. And so based on that knowledge, which has actually been very deeply studied in the field of biofeedback, which is fascinating, um, there is, which is basically quantifying the effects of deep breathing on the body and the heart.

[01:03:26] Um, and the lungs we've seen that you can replicate these same effects with sound waves like Apollo. And so Apollo again does not just automatically put you into a state. If you say I'm really angry and I want to stay, I want to stay angry, but you send it to relax. It's probably not going to work very well for you because you want to be angry.

[01:03:46] And if you want to be doing, uh, if you want to be, uh, falling asleep, but you drank a cup of coffee and you put it on sleep mode, it's probably not gonna make you fall asleep. That being said, if you, it helps you align [01:04:00] your goals with. Where with the stimuli from the environment that's helps basically facilitate transition from state aid, right?

[01:04:09] So it's not magically going to change the way you feel, but when you do apply these frequencies to the body, through the emotional nervous system, that's very tightly connected to the touch nervous system. It helps to facilitate smoother transitions. And this is effectively I think going back to something that's very interesting that we all know, or most of us know in, in our regular day to day society.

[01:04:30] This is actually something that Bruce Lee talked about quite a bit. Bruce Lee was so fast. And so, and such an, an unbeatable, uh, adversary in martial arts, he was really worried. The most tremendous we've ever seen. And part of the reason was because he was maximally present with his environment and he talks about this.

[01:04:48] Always listening, always flowing with you environment. There's no resistance from one state to another. Everything just constantly flows. And so the closer we can get to [01:05:00] that flow on a continuous basis, which the Buddhist monks and the Hindu yoga monks call a walking meditation. So it's not taking time to just go sit in a corner and meditate with your light's cross, but actually be in a present mindful state of your environment as much as possible at all times of your life of our lives.

[01:05:18] That is the closest you get, not only to peak performance, but also to peak recovery. And going back to the idea of health and balance. We must in our society. And this is something that I think has been a big challenge for us. We must balance peak performance with peak recovery, or we will not be able to continuously peak perform.

[01:05:35] Carl Lanore: [01:05:35] Yeah, no, that's when you break. That's when you actually break you, break something

[01:05:39] Dr. David Rabin: [01:05:39] burn out. Right? And that's, and that's what Apollo really helps to facilitate is it helps to facilitate these transitions from this peak performance only mindset. I must be at my peak all the time. I must suck it up. I must keep going, going, going like the Energizer bunny, right?

[01:05:53] We all have all these metaphors in our society for this.

[01:05:56] Dr. Harry Pantazopoulos, Ph.D: [01:05:56] And it may, it

[01:05:56] Dr. David Rabin: [01:05:56] helps to remind us that we must focus on rest [01:06:00] and digest. We must focus on peak recovery States equally to peak performance States, or we will burn those batteries out.

[01:06:06] Carl Lanore: [01:06:06] What I noticed yesterday was so I went, when I, when I was lifting very heavy, especially in the squat, I used to start thinking about squatting the night before, because I would be worried, you know, what am I going to injure myself?

[01:06:23] And when I would get the bar on my back, I used to call it the noise in my head. There was all this noise in my head there's distraction. It was like, try it, you know? And, and, and, and the best strength athletes have the ability to completely lock that out. We'll block that out. Right. What I noticed yesterday was when I flipped the Apollo on and I, my, my brain focused on that feeling.

[01:06:51] Right. Cause I'm looking to feel it. Oh, I feel it now. Oh yeah. It's the same thing as a mantra, [01:07:00] right? When you repeat a mantra over and over again, a word that has no meaning or a sound you're focusing on this one thing, all that other chatter just falls by the wayside because you're focusing on this one thing.

[01:07:14] Um, and I noticed that yesterday and I remember thinking to myself, wow, my head just got clear because I'm like, Mmm. Sensing, I'm paying attention. I'm focusing on the Apollo and I thought to myself, wow, you know, that's an amazing phenomenon. I first experienced this phenomenon when I lived in Las Vegas.

[01:07:36] Uh, if anybody has ever mindlessly dialed a phone, a real phone that has dial tone and a ringtone, and then maybe you're distracted and you're talking and you realize, Oh, I dialed the phone and you bring it to your ear and you hear this. Pause of silence that you think, Oh, they must've picked stop and you go, Hey Joe.

[01:07:57] And then all of a sudden you hear another ringtone [01:08:00] and you go like, the pause was so long that couldn't have been. So when you become narrowly focused on everything on, on something, one thing, a pinpoint time slows down. Right. Right. Bandwidth increases. All the bandwidth is focused on that, then everything it's almost like everything slows down.

[01:08:19] And that's what happened when I put it on yesterday, I felt like all of a sudden I was focusing on the vibration and I felt like everything slowed down and I remembered, you know, this is that hyper focal effect of a mantra. When you're saying the mantra over and over again in your head and everything else just kind of just fades away.

[01:08:37] That's another astonishing thing that I noticed about it. It caused me to stop the chatter in my head about how am I going to do a show and whatever? No, no, no, no, no. And just focus on that. And then it was like, Oh, okay. I was relaxed. Yeah. That's

[01:08:53] Dr. David Rabin: [01:08:53] another part of that. And that's the first thing that we actually noticed when we first discovered these frequencies in the lab at the university of [01:09:00] Pittsburgh, we would put them on our bodies and, you know, being.

[01:09:04] Males growing up in wish mothers. And, you know, we, we have a lot of chatter in our brain noticing that we put this on our body and we almost instantly had this kind of like noise canceling effect of these negative intrusive thoughts or busy thoughts that we really normally would always be going in there.

[01:09:24] It just immediately brought us back down into our bodies and back into the present. And that's actually what we've seen in. In our pilot clinical trials, looking at elite athletes is they're able to improve peak performance. And then also. The cognitive folks improve cognitive performance because of exactly what you were describing.

[01:09:42] It brings them much closer to a flow state, which is being more present with the moment in the moment that you're in right now. And, you know, people will talk about this for a long time. Rom Doss talks about this would be here now. Um, there are many others that talk about this, but if you have the inner game of tennis, which is written by the [01:10:00] famous USC tennis coach, um, all of these are different ways of talking about the exact same thing, which is.

[01:10:07] Present, miss Flo and, and the traditional practice of meditation and mindfulness, which is rooted in breath, bringing us back into the moment into our bodies. And what's really interesting is the more that we practice that whether it's with Apollo's help or whether it's just on our own, the more we practice it, the better we get at actually slowing down time.

[01:10:27] So it really makes you realize how much control we each have over our perception of everything we experience in every moment of every day. No downtime. It gives you more opportunity. To have to think about whether or not the ways you've been, we've been thinking about the way world are actually consistent with the world that we live in.

[01:10:48] Right. And the way we want our world to be. And then our actions kind of fall under question two. And we start to think about, is this action serving me? Not just doing it impulsively because that's the way we've always done it, but [01:11:00] actually is taking a step back and asking ourselves, is this thing I've been doing all this time, actually getting me where I want to go.

[01:11:07] Right. Yeah. And then that's that kind of change by bringing us back into the present moment that kind of change automatically through the unification of mind and body through these practices, it automatically restores agency and a sense of, of self autonomy that increases our ability to have control over our

[01:11:25] Carl Lanore: [01:11:25] lives.

[01:11:27] Yeah. This is a great product. Everyone should have one of these seriously. There are moments in your life. Where you wish you could just snap out of it. Like in that movie, Moonstruck where sheriffs slaps Nicholas cage and says snap out of it. Like, you just want someone to slap your face and help you step out of it.

[01:11:43] This is less, less pain and it works. It really, really works. If you're one of these people who finds your mood is conflicting with the way you want to feel. This is a great product for you. It will help you relax. It will help you [01:12:00] energize. You can literally change your mood on demand. Show me anything that can do that.

[01:12:05] You know, people will say, well, I, you know, I can, I can smoke weed. Well, yeah. Then you're going to be sleepy and groggy for hours. You can't unsay smoke weed or there's no one anticipated that alum. Now, now I'm going to smoke anti weed and I'm going to go to the gym. This allows you to harness your own energy and make it work for you.

[01:12:25] Instead of against you. It's a great product. I love it. I love it a lot. Again, the website is SHR network.biz/apollo neuro. You'll save 15% off. I promise you, you won't be disappointed if you get one. Uh, and, and, and, and again, it lets you take control of how you want to feel throughout the day. And it has a fantastic app, which makes it idiot proof for somebody like me.

[01:12:52] Thank you so much for being a sponsor. Thank you for being on the show today, too.

[01:12:55] Dr. David Rabin: [01:12:55] Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure. Sure.

[01:12:57] Carl Lanore: [01:12:57] Okay. We'll talk again soon. Okay. [01:13:00] Sounds good. Take care. Uh, one last thing I have to do, I have to answer a couple of questions, uh, for Patty Catalan. Patty candle said earlier in the show when I still had the good doctor on, um, that she uses Benadryl as a sleep aid.

[01:13:15] It's a horrible idea. Benadryl is a horrible sleep aid. Uh, it impairs sleep. You don't go through normal sleep cycles. It will absolutely. Uh, if you use longterm ongoing, it will absolutely cause you to have memory problems. There's no doubt about it. Uh, Benadryl makes you groggy, Benadryl increases, um, adenosine in the brain, which makes you sleepy, but it works the same way that alcohol does.

[01:13:42] Uh, and, and the other problem with Benadryl is that it also has facts on a certain, um, a certain goal. Oh, N's like the thyroid and the adrenal glands. So you, you better off using melatonin. Melatonin is a great option to help you [01:14:00] sleep. The other thing is get yourself an Apollo neuro. I know a lot of people who use the Apollo neuro right before bed, it just relaxes them.

[01:14:08] It gets them ready to go to sleep. Uh, it's it's another, another fantastic, uh, uh, tool to use to help you with sleep. But Benadryl is a horrible idea. Patty don't use it. Try something else. Really. Uh, that's it for today. It's been a great show. Don't forget. Go to SHR network.biz/apollo neuro. To get yours for 15% off you won't be disappointed and we'll see everybody tomorrow with more super human radio.

[01:14:33] Thank you for watching and listening today. [01:15:00]