[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] Hey, Hey, welcome back to another episode of super human radio. And today I'm joined by my good friend, uh, and I'd like to thank a colleague, if you will. Uh, Joel green. He finally got his book published. We've been waiting for it for a long time. Today is December 11, 2019 for those of you listening to the show a hundred years from now and realize, wow, these people really knew what they were talking about. Uh. Joel, before we get into your book, we have to get into the exercise of writing a book because you're, you're a brilliant guy and you and I could be accused of having intellectual ADHD because we will start with a topic and then these five tangents will come down out of it, and we will literally start going in those directions and then have to find a way back again. And so it's gotta be hard to harness. Yourself and write a book. Right?

[00:00:58] Joel Greene: [00:00:58] It was, it was the hardest thing I ever did for [00:01:00] sure by far.

[00:01:02] Carl Lanore: [00:01:02] So when did you start writing this book?

[00:01:06] Joel Greene: [00:01:06] A 20 early 2017 a right? A little bit after, uh, the time at quest with you

[00:01:14] Carl Lanore: [00:01:14] and, and what, and what is the process like as you start to write this book? And as you, I'm going to try some, this is a brand new interface. I want to see how this looks, uh. Yeah, I like that. Let's leave it like that for a while. When you start writing a book, you obviously have an idea of how you feel it's going to flow, but the reality is that once you start writing it and you start looking at some of these ideas, they end up taking you in a different direction entirely, right? Oh,

[00:01:42] Joel Greene: [00:01:42] completely. Yeah. I tried to do all the textbook stuff. I. Put up. Um, I, I did an outline. I put up a flashcards on the wall. I had an entire wall with just covered with flash topics that I kept organizing. And, you know, I tried to be really, really super [00:02:00] structured. And, uh, it, at the end of the day, it just kind of wrote itself. And what I wound up with, um, covered some of those ideas, a lot of those ideas, but others that didn't. And then at the end of the day, for me at least, the process was like, the thing wrote

[00:02:14] Carl Lanore: [00:02:14] itself. And, and it's interesting because this morning I posted something on Facebook and about Metformin and we're going to talk about that. But, but it's like your book literally covers topics that are just emerging now. So you have to have a certain level of both insight and foresight in order to in T in order to do that. Right.

[00:02:41] Joel Greene: [00:02:41] Uh, yeah, I guess. So. Um, a lot of the things that are in the book were things that I was doing for many, many years. Um, and what I saw in the marketplace was that there was a lot of things that were being done that really, uh, didn't I, the topic I used in the, in the book is [00:03:00] baby talk, that it wasn't taking into account how things actually work in the body. And that was true of a number of things. So, um, you know, with respect to things like autophagy or Metformin, those are things I had done, you know, 2012. And I, I've done them for awhile and I found out the hard way that, that, uh, that there were a lot of negatives. And so one, one aspect of the book was that there'd be to create a framework where people would understand that it doesn't matter what you're talking about, that there's a what, a when and a how to absolutely everything. Everything can be good. Everything can be better.

[00:03:37] Carl Lanore: [00:03:37] So let's stay with Metformin for just a second longer. Sure. I have not been a proponent of Metformin for a couple reasons. The first is that daily use completely shuts down a M Tor, which to me is not a good thing. Longterm, if you feel that being able to ambulate, get out of chairs easily is important to you as you age, you [00:04:00] don't want to diminish at least maintaining muscle. And so from that standpoint, I've felt it's not a good idea. And again, Metformin has pretty much been well studied in those who are sick diabetics and so on. And now we're starting to see science because it's becoming so popular. We're starting to see science being done, uh, on a non sick population. So what is your position on Metformin?

[00:04:30] Joel Greene: [00:04:30] Uh, so to answer that question, you first have to understand some of the ways that Metformin works because, um, ultimately what we're. High level trying to accomplish, if you're not sick with Metformin and you're hoping to extend lifespan and health span. Um, so that's a very, very complex thing. But if you look at sort of mechanistically what Metformin does, it increases poor protein density in the mitochondria. So you have mitochondrial pores and these are actually proteins and they are manufactured and then [00:05:00] sort of inserted into the mitochondrial membrane. Um, so the analogy would be like, we want more sunlight in the house. And the way that we're going to do it is we're going to knock out more wall, add more windows, and then. Turn the entire foundation of the house until it faces the sun. So it might work. Like you might get more light in the house.

[00:05:22] Carl Lanore: [00:05:22] There's gotta be an easier way to do it. Right?

[00:05:25] Joel Greene: [00:05:25] Turning the foundation of the house may not be the best idea. May not be the best way to do it. So, but that's, Metformin works by, um, increasing the porousness of the mitochondria. Uh, that, that is a very dangerous thing. That is not necessarily a good thing. It can be good, but it can also be very, very bad.

[00:05:46] Carl Lanore: [00:05:46] So, so went, I want to stay with this cause I've never heard it explained this way before. This is really interesting. So by increasing the, the porosity of, of the mitochondria, the concept is that you can now get more of substrate, uh, energy [00:06:00] substrates in there for the mitochondria to burn. Is that how it seems to lower blood sugar levels?

[00:06:08] Joel Greene: [00:06:08] Uh, well, the, the actions of Metformin are, are, are complex, but with respect to pore density in the mitochondria, you know, the basic idea there is that you're allowing protons to flow back and forth between the mitochondria on . You have to understand that we don't, we don't understand how the mitochondria work. Now, there might be people who can expound at length on, you know, Publix four and you know, all these different aspects of the mitochondria, but we don't really understand how they work on. A good example is the hypoxia protein HIF one. Um, the mitochondria, you can make a very good argument that mitochondria revolve around HIF one and. It's very difficult to explain how HIF one interacts gets into the mitochondria. So on. So you can explain that. We don't hundred percent understand. We know a lot. We [00:07:00] don't understand everything. So again, going back to the analogy of we want more light in the room, so we're going to turn the house 90 degrees. It might work, but longterm, turning the house routinely, you might crack the foundation. And that's kind of a simple way to understand it. So, um, with respect to Metformin, Metformin is in many respects, a wonder drug. And it's analog. Berberine, there are amazing tools. Uh, you shouldn't be using them all the time.

[00:07:27] Carl Lanore: [00:07:27] Really. So when, so when should you be using, so in other words, would you only use, so I want to back up. So I have been using rapid myosin, but because rapid myosin has a three day half-life, I only use it when I'm not going to train. And, or maybe I'm just going to do cardio, but I also make sure that I'm fasting for 18 to 20 hours a day when I use my rapid myosin because I feel like that would be the normal time for these biological actions to take place if I was fasting. So I want to try [00:08:00] to keep my body in line with what the drug is supposed to be doing for me if I totally missed the boat.

[00:08:07] Joel Greene: [00:08:07] Um, so. Hi concept. You brought up something really, really important. You said that, uh, you don't want to shut down for all the time. And there's a, there's two chapters in my book, uh, one is called, um, one is about what I call balance. And in that chapter, there's some concepts called, uh, biological duality that introduce and biological duality is the idea that anything can be good or bad. Anything can be good or bad. It just depends on context, timing and the way that it's used. And I use, I use in the book the example of like, um, free radicals and antioxidants. I use that example that they can be good, they can be bad. It just depends. So with respect to a tophi G and cessation of, of growth signaling, um, it can be good. It could be bad. [00:09:00] And when you, when you look at both growth and then you look at how speaking. You find that there are two bookends of the same process and you need both. You need periods of stimulated growth in the body, and there's a lot of healing that takes place from that. Whereas if you're trying to target a tophi G all the time, you're going to find that you're probably going to be chronically sore. And so that gets to sort of this idea of what, when and how, which is kind of chapter five in my book, I call it the language of peak human. And the idea with that is that. As an industry, we have been doing what I call baby talk. And what I mean by that is that we're in this black and white paint a good and bad way of looking at everything. And so it's easy to see. Like if you, if you just go down the list, like fats are good, carbs are bad. Plants are good, meat is bad, you know, and you go down the list and it's like, blueberries are good. [00:10:00] Uh, yeah. Potatoes are bad and it's, it's like get, get, get good. It's all baby talk, right? When you begin to understand that is 100% of the industry and that is not 100%,

[00:10:12] Carl Lanore: [00:10:12] but isn't that because people are so, um. Single dimensional that they want to be told. Just tell me what's good, and like I'm dealing with this with people that I'm trying to help from time to time, you know? Well, just tell me what to do. Just tell me what you're good. Just tell me what's bad,

[00:10:30] Joel Greene: [00:10:30] right? Yeah. That's a chapter from my book. We'll talk about that. The fundamental question of health and fitness. It's one question. It's what, when, and how, and it's true for everything or not what you're talking about. So it's like, Hey, it's be good. I want to use finger. That's good. Right? And you know, the answer is, well, it depends on what it is. Beet root and depends on when you use it and depends on how it's used. And that's the truth of everything. Everything has a what? A one and a [00:11:00] how and everything can be bad. Everything can be good. That's, that's how. That's biological duality, and that's how the body works with anything.

[00:11:08] Carl Lanore: [00:11:08] Yeah, that's very, very good information. So I take it that you are not a fan of chronic administration of Metformin.

[00:11:16] Joel Greene: [00:11:16] I think the Metformin has a very valuable place. A or burglary has a very valuable place, but again, it's, it's what, when, and how.

[00:11:23] Carl Lanore: [00:11:23] Okay, so how, how would you suggest people, if people have been using Metformin and they're listening to the show and they're thinking, okay, I'm, I'm open. You're trying something better than I'm doing now, how would you see people using Metformin? So,

[00:11:37] Joel Greene: [00:11:37] first of all. Everything that you're looking to accomplish with Metformin. If you break down the signal pathways, ultimately that you know mechanistically, like what, what do you want to do? Why are you taking this? This is popping up. Pop pill

[00:11:49] Carl Lanore: [00:11:49] people, people are taking a course, they've been told it'll make them live longer. So why that is? So that is such a broad scope term. It's like really like what? What [00:12:00] exactly is it that you're doing that's going to make you live longer, right?

[00:12:03] Joel Greene: [00:12:03] So when you mechanistically look at everything that form in the facts. Everything it affects occurs during sleep, but the difference is it's stronger during sleep. That's the difference. So we'll just go down the list. You want H HDAC inhibition. You want to talk Fiji, you want on repletion of nav, you want all these life extending things. Okay? All those things belong in a natural ecosystem. So we cannot, we cannot separate timing and diurnal rhythm. And weekly rhythm and seasonal rhythm from how the body works. That's what's true about how the body works. So when someone says, Hey, how should I use Metformin? The answer is, before you do that, let's restore sleep. That's that. Let's do that. Because if, if sleep is not restored to the level it was when you were younger, then your robbing from Peter to pay Paul, that's the first answer to that. The second answer would be that apart from sleep. Periodic and sort of seasonal stimulation of, [00:13:00] of those pathways with Metformin is a good thing, but it should all be done in conjunction with worsened growth. That's the answer. Let's do growth and housekeeping. Go together. And the book, I use the analogy of a lioness. Um, if I can just expound for a second,

[00:13:14] Carl Lanore: [00:13:14] please. All right.

[00:13:16] Joel Greene: [00:13:16] So lion is, so she's on her, she's on her 18th, a hunt, unsuccessful. So at this point, um, she's starving to death. Okay. But a really interesting thing is happening. Um, ATP is being repleted in her cells, but it's not being used up. And that is by the action of amp. K. Uh, which actually restores ATP, but it's not being used. And the reason is she needs to save everything for a last ditch spread. So that's, that's, it's a survival mechanism. So at this point, a really funny thing is happening. Um, she's close to death, but her cells have taken on a state of near mortality in this point. She's not aging. No. The reason she's not aging is she's not adding muscle. So you [00:14:00] cannot define aging without defining energy intake and growth. They go together. They're one in the same thing. So Aging's table, she's, she's near death, but she's nearly a mortal. She's, she's not aging, so she gets her kill. She eats about 40 pounds of meat in a sitting. What does she do. He goes right to sleep, right? She goes, now what happens? Now? She puts on muscle like she was on steroids. She rapidly puts muscle back on and grows and reestablishes all of the muscle that it wither away, all the healing, all the tendons, everything gets healed back up. Okay, so in that cycle. You get a very good picture for the application and use of these things. So the Metformin side of things, the berberine side of things is when she was starving, and the most powerful mechanisms in the body are all types of survival. Anytime you tap into anything that's tied to survival, that is the single most powerful mechanisms. And I used the point in the book, it's super easy to prove easy. If you prove it right now, just stop breathing [00:15:00] by fourth and will until you pass out.

[00:15:03] Carl Lanore: [00:15:03] And

[00:15:03] Joel Greene: [00:15:03] what will happen is you won't, you cannot overcome survival mechanisms through force of will. You'll breathe or just try and stop eating through forces.

[00:15:12] Carl Lanore: [00:15:12] People who pass out for all sorts of reasons, like heat exhaustion, they're passing out because the body is about to. Step in and save itself. Oh, we just lo us lost Joel. That's not good. Oh man. This is getting sun. I have such good questions. Marco, we're going to get your question. Here he comes. He's coming back now. He's coming back now. Hold on. Sorry.

[00:15:34] Joel Greene: [00:15:34] And that's okay.

[00:15:35] Carl Lanore: [00:15:35] That's okay. Hold on. You're connecting now. Okay. So you'll be on the other side. That's fun. Um, so, and Marco and Cognito, we're going to answer your question. So, um. It's interesting. I was saying, you know, if you have heat exhaustion, you pass out because your body is intervening to save itself because you're too stupid. You continue to do something in the wake of, of, of dying. Um, so this is an [00:16:00] interesting, I asked the Del muso many years ago, uh, wouldn't it be beneficial if after training fasted and then after eating a big meal, you went to sleep? Because we know. Deductively that if you, if you move after a meal, it drops blood sugar dramatically because you're utilizing it with your muscles. But if you don't move after a meal, your, your, your blood sugar rises and insulin takes over and it starts to, uh, cause growth of the body. What you just said makes me ask you this question. Does it make sense that after we train fasted that we, and we have a big meal, that we nap for 20 or 30 minutes. Hundred

[00:16:44] Joel Greene: [00:16:44] percent yeah, 100%

[00:16:48] Carl Lanore: [00:16:48] because, you know, my ex wife used to get mad at me cause when I first started strength training, I used to eat and then I would take a quick nap and she thought, you know, I was just lazy and you know, [00:17:00] and I was like, no, I feel like I recover a lot faster when I do that. So you're saying that that's exactly what's happening.

[00:17:06] Joel Greene: [00:17:06] Yeah. So. Again, growth, energy, energy intake cannot be separated from growth.

[00:17:13] So when you look at energy intake and you look at the way insulin works, you're stimulating all the growth pathways, you're stimulating the map K pathway. So map K a is a control check over cell cycles. So that's what allows cells to go through and continue past the G one checkpoint and to divide.

[00:17:30] It's tied to energy intake. So without food, you're suppressing mapK , you're suppressing cell cycles. So energy, food, and growth and aging, they're one thing. They're just different sides of one thing and you need both. You need periods of, here's the really interesting thing for the audience. Um, what are the ways you can maximize muscle growth is through activation of starvation signals. Okay? Hyperpolarization of the mechanisms that starvation primes the other end of things [00:18:00] for muscle growth. And it's very, very easy to see. It's very easy to see through analogy. It's easy to see through a number of different ways. So

[00:18:07] Carl Lanore: [00:18:07] yes, you're right that this was actually shown in dr Mullin  book of dub diplomats and diabetes where he looks at the Darwinian, uh, approach to metabolic disorder, and he shows that from an evolutionary perspective, we were fasted when we hunted because we had to get hungry enough where our hunger produces peptides that suppress fear. And once we went hunting, we were very hungry. We expended a lot of energy. We hunted and then we feast it. And when, when you follow this evolutionary edict, the body responds by up-regulating muscle growth and strength because it wants to be able to super compensate for the next time. This. This event occurs. And so what you're saying goes hand in hand with his brilliant book, and it's amazing. I have to add, let me pop this up here for a second. [00:19:00] So Jeff Clifton says, if you can't nap, would meditation suffice? You know, so, so you eat , you train fasted, you eat your meal, you sit in your car for 20 minutes and you just meditate. What do you think.

[00:19:15] Joel Greene: [00:19:15] Well, meditation has a whole host of benefits apart from the mechanistic actions of sleep that, uh, just whether or not you, whether or not you train anywhere that you should be doing that. Absolutely. I mean, there's, there's a whole stack

[00:19:28] Carl Lanore: [00:19:28] there, but you think that you'd have, you'd think that you'd have that same upregulation of growth and, and, and growth factors, uh, that you would by just going to sleep after training.

[00:19:39] Joel Greene: [00:19:39] I don't know. That's a really good question. Okay.

[00:19:41] Carl Lanore: [00:19:41] That's for book number two, huh? Okay, so Marco, what's that? Yeah, no more books. Don't punish me. Marco and Cognito asked about GLP one a being better alternative than Metformin, but are we not splitting hairs here? A berberine, [00:20:00] a GLP one, Metformin, uh, uh, you know, rapid myosin if we're fasting. Isn't that adequate, assuming we don't have blood sugar management problems, assuming that our blood sugar isn't raging all the time, are in all of these alternatives to fasting. If you are just trying to get stable blood sugar levels because it is in fact, glucose signaling that speed cellular senescence,

[00:20:26] Joel Greene: [00:20:26] uh. Hmm. Hmm. Yes and no. Yes. In the sense that if there's one factor that is driving the aging process more than any other, it's amplitude of insulin function. So, in the case of like incretin sensitization Marco's question. So you have a GLP one antagonist. Um, my preference would be to do that through food. Um, so sensitization of insulin via the incretins. There's a whole host of proteins that's working on separate and apart from the action of insulin that just make everything work better, not necessarily the same mechanisms as berberine. [00:21:00] Um, my personal preference for that would be to use, uh, cycles of food to sensitize the incretin hormones. And it's very easy to do so by, by alternating, uh, in timing of things like, um, eggs, for example, in the morning or barley at night, you can centralize incurred in functions. You can get GLP one GIP. Uh, working on a little bit better just makes insulin work better. And so this periodic conditioning of the incretin hormones just by itself is a wonderful thing to do. Um, I don't, for that particular one, I don't like, they don't like drugs. Did you that, um, that answers your question.

[00:21:33] Carl Lanore: [00:21:33] Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. So I want to tell people where they can actually get the book. First of all, yes. The book is available at, uh, uh, at Joel's original website Veep, nutrition.com. Just hit forward slash book and there's a special going on, uh, where you can either get the digital version, uh, the hard copy version or both, and a super savings as a presale, right? Is that correct?

[00:21:59] Joel Greene: [00:21:59] Yes. [00:22:00] Presale is wrapping up. So I've been doing a presale on Facebook to friends and family and superhumans like yourself, and that's wrapping up. And then it's going to move over to Amazon. Um, and if you're a bit of a presale there, and I'm learning a lot about how to Margaret book. So, uh, and that's gonna kick off. So a jump on this. This is going to end here in a few days. Uh, and you'll, you'll get the, you'll get the. I think they were shipping on the 15th but you'll get the digital copy like pretty quick, so you can dive into that and get

[00:22:31] Carl Lanore: [00:22:31] it. So when we come back, I want to talk about a chapter in your book that's T that's titled the problem of how humans really eat. You and I have done some groundbreaking interviews where we've looked at Hunter gatherer nations. We've looked at our evolutionary edicts and how far we have strayed. Uh, in, in modernity. So let's do this. Let's take a quick commercial break. Give me a second. I've got to figure out how to do this. Uh, okay. And then I have to hit solo. All new to me. Stay tuned. [00:23:00] We'll be right back with more of Joel green. Welcome back to super human radio, talking with my good friend Joe Green, who is brilliant, and he's aging like a champion. And congratulations to him and his new wife, Christie.

[00:23:17] Congratulations. Marriage is doing great things for him. Yes, yes it is. And, uh, and so let's talk about this, a chapter in the book, which was very, very intriguing to me. Right? And that it's the, the problem of how humans really eat. Talk about that. Yeah.

[00:23:35] Joel Greene: [00:23:35] Well, it is. Uh,

[00:23:37] Carl Lanore: [00:23:37] so

[00:23:39] Joel Greene: [00:23:39] basically we've spent 70 years trying to correct a problem that can't be corrected. And if you look at this thing we call eating. Um, the one constant of it is that it is driven by survival mechanisms. That's the truest thing you could ever say about eating and in the modern era, just [00:24:00] quite by accident. What we have done is by seasons of getting in shape, dieting, and getting out of shape, we have unwittingly mimics seasons of feast and fasting. Seasons of famine and feast. We've mimicked those, and when you look at the body's mechanistic responses to starvation, it doesn't matter what word you put on it. You can call it time restricted eating. You can call it fasting, you can call it . He didn't even call it . It doesn't matter what word you want to put on. Limiting food intake. The body understands one thing, that you are shrinking fat cells. That's all it means to the body. So what I do in the book is I inventory the mechanistic responses of when fat cells shrink. And I think I made a pretty good case to show that everything that happens when fat cells shrink is a survival mechanism. I just survival. And there's a number of mechanisms that going list. In fact, there's three whole chapters devoted to. Um, a paradox created by fat loss and by extremely bad cells. So the net of all those things is that [00:25:00] survival mechanisms and survival programming are what work. When fat cells shrink. And if you just think post famine, the body's survival interest is in eating as much as possible. If food is available, that's, that's the body's survival interest. And when you look at human history, there's never ever been a time when that's not true. It's always been true. It's always been true that human beings periodically feast. So when you look at what humans really do, and you track them over 20, 30, 40, 50 years, and just look at what they actually do with food. And they have seasons where they mimic starvation, meaning they'll go, they'll diet, they'll adhere to a particular eating plan, but longterm, a type of eating that's in the science literature called ad libitum meeting, uh, surfaces. Now the burden is. In any framework,

[00:25:52] Carl Lanore: [00:25:52] everything at anything

[00:25:53] Joel Greene: [00:25:53] mean anything and everything, right? So eating anything and everything when it's available is a survival mechanism. [00:26:00] It's not about will. In fact, I make a really good case in several examples that whenever survival comes up against will, will, will win. You might or excuse me, survival wins every time. Um, you can use the example of breathing. You can use the example of starvation, like if you want to prove what's more powerful, just stop eating. Just stop eating period, and then just go as long as you can. I guarantee you, I promise you 100% you will eat because survival will make you eat right and post survival. We are, we are hardwired to eat anything and everything as a survival mechanism and that cannot be changed. It can't be changed. And we've spent 70 years trying to change it. So that's kind of the synopsis of that chapter.

[00:26:43] Carl Lanore: [00:26:43] Okay. So bodybuilders have been eating five to seven small meals a day. And when I first started to get involved in physical culture, I learned, uh, a statement, uh, or a, a term called fed [00:27:00] state. That when the body is in a fed state, the body likes predictability. We know this, the body likes regimentation in all areas of life. We know this. And when you eat the same foods. And you eat them every couple, three hours, small meals, not talking about gorging yourself. The body becomes, uh, let's say happy, and it goes, Hey, you know, we live in a world of abundance. Maybe we don't need to store so much fat. Uh, because we seem to be getting, you know, six or seven meals a day. Everything is great, and let's go ahead and let the fat stores shrink a little bit. Uh, when, when in a, a small, you know, small calorie deficit, which leads to very, very lean, uh, lean body. And, uh, I'm starting to wonder if in fact that these multiple small meals a day are actually, regardless [00:28:00] of whether you want to be a bodybuilder or you want to have a certain type of physique are actually good for you. What do you think about that?

[00:28:08] Joel Greene: [00:28:08] Uh, so again, this falls under duality and it falls under the basic concepts that I lay out in chapter four or five, which, which is that number one. Mmm. Cycles of time matter a lot. So the body runs on a diurnal cycle, but it also runs on a weekly cycle called circaseptan rhythm. And circaseptan rhythm is actually built into all biology when you study it. And it leads you into some really fascinating concepts like, Hmm. Different days of the week actually have very unique nutritional requirements. Like heart rate variability is highest on certain days, and you can find all kinds of, in fact, it's called Crinod immunology. Um, that's the application of what day of the week should we administer drugs based on the most likely effectiveness. And then beyond that, there's seasons. So there are actually seasons built into biology. For example, in winter, a heart attacks and stroke are higher. People sleep more in [00:29:00] winter. And so there's a very good case just taking timing into account that there are seasons of things. There are. And do you see there are weekly periods of things and there are daily periods of things, and we've got to start to think about those things. What are the secrets of maybe each system is that circaseptan rhythm has been built into it.

[00:29:15] Carl Lanore: [00:29:15] Oh no, Joel, we lost you again. Give him a second. He'll come right back. Here he comes. I don't know why, but hold on. Let me, let me just do this real quick. Hold on a second. Let me put Joel up and let me put Mia. Okay, here we go. Okay. Yeah, you're back. Sorry. That's okay. You have to put, you have to put another quarter in the, uh, in the computer.

[00:29:39] Joel Greene: [00:29:39] It's this a belief thing. The little helper keeps trying to help me and it prompts me with like, are you happy? Would you like a happy meal or, yeah. So,

[00:29:50] Carl Lanore: [00:29:50] so, so anyway, so wrap that up in this whole idea of like having multiple meals a day and what that signals to the body that allows it to get leaner.

[00:30:00] [00:30:00] Joel Greene: [00:30:00] So there are periods where it's highly beneficial, but as a thing to do as a way of life all the time. Probably not on, I have some, I have a, I think it's probably about a page in the book dedicated to the benefits of feasting and there are newly discovered, newly discovered, uh, proteins that actually circulate in the blood post feasting mean periods of very large meals like overeating, just killing it, but actually make you leaner over time. So does the place for both, is the answer.

[00:30:32] Carl Lanore: [00:30:32] Interesting. So I have always experimented with that. My, in fact, Rob Wolf once told me that I was playing with real medicine by doing this. So I would, uh, I would, I would fast for 16 hours, which is not a horrible thing cause I'm sleeping for eight of it. And then I and I would train fasted, but then my post workout meal would be ridiculously large. I'm talking about a few thousand calories. This is back then. Now I have about a thousand calories post workout. I have about [00:31:00] a hundred to 150 grams of protein post-workout. I tend not to be hungry for a very, very long time as a result of that, but I definitely can tell that when I start to do that again and do it religiously. I, my muscles grow fast and I get strong faster. Right now I'm trying to lift myself. The 2018 took the wind out of my sails, two surgeries in one year. I am screaming. I'm still feeling that I really am. I mean, I hate to admit it, but it, I am clearly not super human when it comes to going under the knife twice in one year. But I am now getting strong again. And one of the things that I've instinctively done is this train fasted. You know, I try to. Emulate that. Evolutionary EDIC train fasted, work hard to get your food. Theoretically, there has to, Melinda  talks about there has to be a component of risk in your training to truly take advantage of the fast that preceded it. [00:32:00] And obviously if you're lifting heavy weights, it's always risky because you're worried you're going to tear a muscle or blow a disc or something like that. And then our huge meal after that, just like the lioness, who would. Eat, you know, 21 pounds of meat and then go lay under a shady tree and fall asleep. The only thing that's missing from my training right now is the post workout meal nap, which I'm going to find a way to work that back end, believe it. And I may move the show to a later time in the day specifically, so I can come in here and take a nap. I'm not kidding. I know you think I'm kidding, but I'm very serious about this. I really am

[00:32:34] Joel Greene: [00:32:34] so,

[00:32:35] Carl Lanore: [00:32:35] so, okay. So all things. Uh, have a, uh, timing, uh, to it. Is there any way to predict that timing? Is there any way to say, well, you know, is it seasonal? Is a seasonal aspect of it most important for humans to watch?

[00:32:53] Joel Greene: [00:32:53] Uh, it's all three. It's, it's, there's a daily, there's a weekly, there's a seasonal. Uh, so let's take, let's take, um, [00:33:00] one example would be, uh, just top of my head trying to remember, uh, heart rates. What,

[00:33:07] Carl Lanore: [00:33:07] Oh, I think,

[00:33:08] Joel Greene: [00:33:08] don't quote me on this cause I'm just going from memory on the exact day, but there's a, there's a best day of the week for, I believe it's a blood pressure, and, excuse me. No, there's a best day of the week for, for a sodium. And it's actually independent of sodium intake. So thinking about that, there's also a seasonality to stroke and heart attack.

[00:33:31] Carl Lanore: [00:33:31] Right? Oh, no, Joel, don't disappear. You're frozen. There you are. You're there. Okay. And what about, and what, and we know that, and let's not forget the human construct of, of a daylight savings time, know that when they move the clock forward and you lose that hour of sleep, the rate of heart attack goes through the roof for like the first month.

[00:33:54] Joel Greene: [00:33:54] You absolutely. And heart attacks, uh, are mostly on Mondays and Mondays and Thursday [00:34:00] afternoons. So this is a very interesting field of medicine. Um, there's, there's chronic immunology and there's a couple of other, um, immunology based studies based on the administration of drugs at the right time and day of the week to get these lifts in effectiveness. And it's a very, very, very real thing. And I see a John Kiefer in the question.

[00:34:20] Carl Lanore: [00:34:20] Yeah, yeah. I'm going to put this up here now. I gotta say something. I had him on my show way, way back when when he started doing the carb backloading I am not a proponent for eating right before bed if you care about your health and your risk of dementia. But with that being said, a Mark, a decor. So said John Keifer from carb backloading talks about the Hulk effect. A training fast. It's specifically having low insulin and blood sugar. Is this effect from the relationship between adrenaline and insulin?

[00:34:53] Joel Greene: [00:34:53] Uh, I would say no. It's actually more a signal pathway amplification. So the most [00:35:00] powerful inspectors of the aging process and really, you know, growth or signal pathways, and it's the recruitment of signal pathways cell, the cell, the cell. So in a star state. You look at activation of AMPK,K  and you look at all the things MK is giving on a self sell basis, and does that signal strength propagates and magnifies and it goes cell to cell to cell.

[00:35:23] So you're recruiting maximum number of cells that are triggered, um, trigger the amputee pathway. Uh, and the longer that you do it, what you're doing is you're in essence priming the opposing signal state, which is growth. So you're priming mapK  premium for pik three. If, I mean, all these signal States.

[00:35:40] So it's more what I call them, the books  amplification. And I introduced this concept in the book of the amplified fast, which is not focusing on the time fasting, but the signal strength of fasting in order to maximize the benefits and minimize the downside of it. And so really beginning to think [00:36:00] about amplifying signal strength as a way to maximize bang for the buck with anything, whether that's muscle growth or aging or anything. And that's kind of a, a . Really see anybody's talked about that. It's a big part of the book.

[00:36:12] Carl Lanore: [00:36:12] Yeah. And, and you know, I noticed there's a study that was just published recently that shows that time restricted feeding. You know, a long time ago, I didn't want to call it intermittent fasting because I felt like it, it attracted the Zelle. It like mentality. And I actually like to call it a more ancestral like meal timing pattern. Because we didn't have refrigerators before the agrarian revolution. You know, we didn't have stores of food. We generally woke up somewhat hungry, and as the morning wore on, we became hungry and hungry. And we knew that the tasks of finding food, uh, were, were something that you had. It didn't, it didn't happen quickly. Like you didn't go his food, so he had to work for it. So maybe you didn't really start to nosh [00:37:00] on things that were available until, you know, 10 or 11 o'clock. Uh, in the afternoon, I almost like this more ancestral meal frequency pattern. Better to explain it because as soon as you say fasting, people think of starvation and there is, there is fasting out there. I mean, I've fasted for three days in the past and you know, that probably closer to starvation than, than what we're talking about. But with that being said, um, there's been a, there was a study that was just published that shows that adults who adhere to. A time restricted feeding pattern of 16 and eight have a better growth in the hippocampus of the brain. And I have to believe that's happening in other areas of the brain as well. So do you feel that using a time restricted feeding more emulates the way we would have eaten before modernity and, and therefore is it, is it better for you.

[00:37:56] Joel Greene: [00:37:56] Not necessarily, um, sometimes, but not [00:38:00] necessarily. Um, I don't like a lot of the research on time restricted feeding because most of it was done for obesity. It was done. A lot of it was done with mice. Um, and when you try and translate that into healthy humans and you know, the effects that we see, I think there's. Benefits to periodization of it for a while, but you can make a good case, like in the case of Ramadan fasting, it's just time restricted feeding, and that's been around way, way longer. And we have lots of data on Ramadan fasting. It causes weight gain. Um, so there are, there's a short term effect. Uh, I met with that Ron, kind of, yeah, a few weeks ago we were

[00:38:37] Carl Lanore: [00:38:37] talking about, I know he, he messaged me after he met with you and said that he had a brilliant conversation with you at a coffee shop right.

[00:38:45] Joel Greene: [00:38:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have these incredible brains. I just, it's almost

[00:38:49] Carl Lanore: [00:38:49] like, you know what the funny thing is of all of us, he's really the most brilliant, but he doesn't want to be on the forefront. Like he doesn't want to be out there on anything. Yeah.

[00:38:58] Joel Greene: [00:38:58] We've, it's funny, we've talked about, [00:39:00] we've talked about that, we've talked about that whole thing and how that pulled out of class and yeah, I would probably agree with that as

[00:39:08] Carl Lanore: [00:39:08] well. But,

[00:39:09] Joel Greene: [00:39:09] uh, we were talking about this, this exact same thing, and we were talking about. Um, with respect to you looking at periodization and time remapping, and the word I was using with him was, uh, was temporal mapping. And so that the baby talk of today's industry is, you know, if, if Metformin bad, if, if fasting gut, you know, and is really stupid, it must be good. So I'll do it right when you actually. Map it over time. What you see with anything is this. That's what you see. So when you begin to ask the question, it's met forming Glen, then you go, at what point in time? Well, like every time, no, no, no. Like, like, let's look at the map and we see this curve. Okay. And so we've got to begin to ask that question. Like [00:40:00] when we begin to do Tempur mapping of anything, like, let's take time restricted feeding. Uh, or keto diets or keto diets glut. They must always be good. Cause they're key though, right? So when we look at keto diets, well, let me see. Short term, what we see is there's a, there's a molecule called four hydroxy, no Nino. It's a, it's what's called an electro file. And keto diets make for hydroxyurea, Nino in the mitochondria. And for induction, no needle. Pretty bad stuff. There's not much good to it. But what it does is it causes a hormone, medic effects short term. So you get an up regulation of glutathione production. So short term, what you see is oxidative stress goes up and then it goes down. And so you have this period where oxidative stress is better. So it's easy to say they work with, do them always. But when you do your math time and you go out and then you see this. Is he actually have stressed you and it

[00:40:51] Carl Lanore: [00:40:51] gets worse over time

[00:40:53] Joel Greene: [00:40:53] and then it gets very bad. Right. And so this idea of any question we have to start to begin to ask, [00:41:00] at what point on the time now and if you get the claim,

[00:41:03] Carl Lanore: [00:41:03] and you know, I want to get a couple of questions up here from, from listeners and viewers. Yeah. So Barb to coastal says also, does this allow you to better use muscle? He's talking about a training, fasted a muscle glycogen not having circulating sugar.

[00:41:19] Joel Greene: [00:41:19] Uh, so the way I've came works is MK as a survival mechanism.

[00:41:26] And if you were close to death using our lioness, the difference between life and death is that last push to catch the hindquarter of her prey when she's near starvation and near dead. Okay. And that requires stored up ATP. So the mechanism eventK  will replete ATP, but you won't use it immediately.

[00:41:47] And so I think that answers kind of part of your question in the way that sugar is used within the muscle is study shifts effect has a way of repeating it, um, but not actually using it unless it's needed for like a [00:42:00] sort of an adrenaline based last ditch. Hope that answers that.

[00:42:03] Carl Lanore: [00:42:03] Okay. And here's a good question because I know you're all about the gut. Jeff Clifton says, uh, is there an optimal time frame. A four time restrict timeframe of time, restricted eating for those who have CBO or CFO.

[00:42:19] Joel Greene: [00:42:19] So really good question. So if you have a Seabourn only guesses, you were probably doing probiotics at some point. Um, one of

[00:42:28] Carl Lanore: [00:42:28] the I am, I have to come out, you know, I am not an expert at anything and I'm like everybody else in this audience try to figure things out. I gave myself CBO, I got rid of it. Now. Took two things to do it, but I gave myself CBOE by taking two VSL number three packets a day, because each of them had 900 billion CFUs. And I thought, well, more has gotta be better. And I gave myself small intestinal bacterial overgrowth that took a peptide and a very unique, uh, antibiotical Xifaxan to finally [00:43:00] rid myself of it. So go ahead, talk to me now. Go ahead. Very common probiotics.

[00:43:05] Joel Greene: [00:43:05] Most people, uh, again, if you map it on time, there's the short term. It's, it's like, man, it's amazing. Everything is better. And then keep mapping the time. And it's like, Oh my gosh, I've got to CBO. So, uh, yeah. But to answer your question, uh, one of the things I do in the book is I lay a master framework to understand. What restores the gut, and it's based on, it's based on carbon and nitrogen and understanding these most basic things. So there's a simple concept in the book that I give, and it's that individual foods affect individual species of bacteria, but macros affect what are called gills. And about

[00:43:45] Carl Lanore: [00:43:45] gills G.

[00:43:46] I. L. L. S. yeah. Okay.

[00:43:48] Joel Greene: [00:43:48] Okay. So the bacterial Guild is a grouping of diverse bacteria. They have nothing to do with each other other than the way they utilize nitrogen and carbon. Okay. [00:44:00] And so kind of the kind of the, what you see a lot about right now is the stuff I was doing a number of years ago, which is, you know, eating the specific food, you can spin up this bacteria. There's a lot of that in the book. But the next level beyond that is understanding bacterial guilds. And so it's understanding how macro ratios, just pure macros affect nitrogen utilization in the gut. So the first thing to understand is that the most important bacteria you need to replete are bifidobacteria, necromancy, IA, and Akkermansia is repleted. There's, there's two ways to derive nitrogen in the gut. There's external sources, and then there's internal nitrogen secretion. So when you're fasting, you're making nitrogen internally, you're making nitrogen without food sources, and that is by fasting affects Akkermansia. It helps to replete it a little bit. So your optimal combination, if you're looking at CBO, is a combination of timing. The restoration of the fiddle bacteria the day before, which you do through production of [00:45:00] butyrate and things I've talked about on your show many, many times. So you haven't the two day period. The first day is you're, you're repleting the fit of bacteria. The sort of bacteria is going to make you iterate and it's going to generate all the cross feeding reactions that you need to feed it from Ansia through food. And then the day after that, you have a period of fasting and it doesn't have to be very long, but it's the combination of repeating the field bacteria proceeding repleting Akkermansia through fasting. That you're going to get the best bang for the buck, if that makes sense.

[00:45:28] Carl Lanore: [00:45:28] It does. It does. And again, I dizzy. This is discussion. You and I have had about my own personal life about these, these exact steps where you've told me to use whey protein at certain times because it increases bifido, but then to eat blueberries, if I remember correctly. Uh, so this is interesting. And here's another question from Jeff. He says he was reading, uh, last night that CBO runs from mouth to rectum. And they need to change the name because it relates to the strep [00:46:00] virus. Any, have you heard anything like that?

[00:46:04] Joel Greene: [00:46:04] Uh, regarding the strep virus? I, I, I don't, haven't heard that one, so we'll have to look it up. But he brings up a fantastic point that I talk about at length in the book. And it's the connection between the mouth and the gut and the mouth and other parts of the body. And I have a chapter called membranes. Membranes matter most, um, uh, young membranes. And what to talk about in that chapter is when the outside world comes in contact with a key membrane in the body, what happens? So one of the most neglected and ignored aspects of PQM and physiology, optimal human physiology is the relationship between intrusion points in the dumb line and basically translocation of both bacteria and signals to other parts of the body. It's a very old topic that was shut away for years and now it's actually been proven. Uh, one of the ways it's proven, for example, is, um, we know that if you have fusil bacteria in the gut, you probably going to get cancer. Well, turns out you get it in the [00:47:00] mouth first. You get it in the gum lining first and then fuse the bacteria in the gum lining. What

[00:47:03] Carl Lanore: [00:47:03] kind of bacteria

[00:47:05] Joel Greene: [00:47:05] feeds the bacteria? 

[00:47:07] Carl Lanore: [00:47:07] spell it for me. It

[00:47:09] Joel Greene: [00:47:09] is F U S O bacteria.

[00:47:12] Carl Lanore: [00:47:12] Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I've never heard of that one. Okay. Yeah. Phonetically that's good enough. Few, so, okay.

[00:47:21] Joel Greene: [00:47:21] Like, and I got too much stuff in my head, but I think it's a little one of the two. Okay.

[00:47:26] Carl Lanore: [00:47:26] Okay. So, so it starts in the mouth first. Yeah. Oh, it's

[00:47:31] Joel Greene: [00:47:31] one of the ways it can start. Yeah. So what happens? The gut lining can become compromised and when the gut lining is penetrated, then you can have, um, you can have all sorts of essentially signal cascades that happened by the polarization of macrophages. Okay. So the biggest concentration of macrophages in the body is in the gut. And the laminate here. And they can polarize and flip from the EMT to the Mon state become inflammatory and they can essentially spread inflammatory signals to the fat mass and then elsewhere in the body. [00:48:00] Well, something similar can happen in the gum line. And so it just, the net of it is very simple. It's like you got to go get a cleaning every three to four months because the. It is impossible to, without deep planning and deep scaling, you can't get to that bacteria in there. And there's an emerging body of research showing how issues from a gun line gum line essentially transplant into the body.

[00:48:22] Carl Lanore: [00:48:22] You know, it's funny because, um, I just went for my annual cleaning and she told me that, um, I have no deep pockets or pockets of any type anymore, so it is possible to reverse that type of thing. Are you looking for few? So bacteria right now.

[00:48:38] Joel Greene: [00:48:38] Yes, she's out. I'm just blanking in my head if it was. No, no. That's cool.

[00:48:43] Carl Lanore: [00:48:43] That's cool. Yeah. I want to take, I want to take a last commercial break and I want to talk about the relationship of old fat and young fat, because this is a concept I've never heard before, and of course it comes from you first before anybody else, at least that I know. Of

[00:48:59] Joel Greene: [00:48:59] course,

[00:49:00] [00:48:59] Carl Lanore: [00:48:59] of course. All right, so we're going to take, I'm going to try to move this up without losing anybody and get this on. There we go. I'm learning this new interface. Stay tuned. We'll be right back with more of Joel

[00:49:11] Joel Greene: [00:49:11] grin.

[00:49:14] Carl Lanore: [00:49:14] That's where you can get the book. Deep. nutrition.com phone slash book. This is going, I predict that this book is going to become a seminal work in the discussion about nutrition and disease. Um, so before we get onto the next topic, which is going to be. Fat, old fat versus young fat and how fat steers, uh, aging. I have to ask you a question. Um, there are, there is a preponderance of people out there with, uh, undiagnosable neurological symptoms. Uh, they go, you know, they go to neurologists and they're given, you know. Lyrica and stuff like that, [00:50:00] because they suffer from fatigue, they suffer from pain, they suffer from a brain fog. And you know, I did that show with dr Satish Rao about lactic acid bacteria in the gut producing D lactic acidosis, which leads to brain fog. And, uh. Lactic acidosis of muscles as well. But D, lactic acidosis cannot be used as a fuel substrate for muscle. So it accumulates and causes burning, but it doesn't get burnt off. So a lot of these, um, would you, would you agree with me or my, am I one of these, uh, same people at, you know, what's good, what's bad? All of these, uh, suspicious, hard to diagnose neurological disorders could potentially have a beginning and, uh, in the gut.

[00:50:47] Joel Greene: [00:50:47] Um, well, yes, but that's an overplayed, uh, mean in, in pop nutrition today. Uh, there's so cancer, your question, [00:51:00] the real, the real issue gets a very large piece of the problem is, is inflammatory signaling. And what happened? Um, in fact, I put this in the book. There's some new research that talks about. It's not the telomeres that are the primary driver of aging. It's inflammation. And they've been able to show this with large populations of sanitarians where a telomere attrition is, is not the primary driver, it's inflammatory signals. And then what? What happens with super sanitarians, the reason they live so long is they're able to take inflammatory signals and treat them sort of more medically where they develop these concentrating mechanisms. But in non  non senators non really long that people, they don't have those same mechanisms and that's what kills them. So a lot of these issues get to one way or another inflammation. It's just a question of how inflammation propagates a and yes, inflammation. The primary onset point is with the [00:52:00] macrophage layer just below the gut lining. Um, where that gets the macrophages in that layer flip polarity from the  to the  state. And that affects everything. But what you hear a lot of is this gut brain health thing. And you know, like, like, Oh, just it, just fix your gut and gonna be super smart, you know? And it's just complete BS. Like, I mean, I know, I don't think, I know, having done this stuff for 13 years, what you can do by tweaking the gut, you can, you can drop fat crazy fast. You can, um, drive your energy through the roof. You can do all these things, but in terms of the brain and all that,

[00:52:39] Carl Lanore: [00:52:39] but I'm not, I'm not talking about the brain really. I mean the, the, the, the lactic acidosis and brain fog was one thing. But w what, so I've been preaching, and again, I'm here to be corrected cause I want to tell accurate stuff on my show. I've been preaching to my audience that when you hear the word inflammation, remember. Inflammation is the army of the [00:53:00] immune system. It goes out and does what the immune system wants it to do. And when you talk about the immune system, you're talking about the gut because that's really where the immune system resides. So isn't it possible that people who have diseases like fibromyalgia and other , if they would focus on getting their gut right, that a lot of these things would subside.

[00:53:22] Joel Greene: [00:53:22] 5% yeah. Most of those things, uh, I believe are, they're really just got bacteria issues. Um, Parkinson's, fibromyalgia, a whole bunch of those things. They're just get bacteria issues. Okay. Yeah, I know that's true. So

[00:53:34] Carl Lanore: [00:53:34] this is another exciting topic, right? Cause right now I'm thinking, how do I get young blood transfusion because of those studies that show that if you're infused by young blood, you take on the attributes of the young person, but you're saying old fat versus young fat. How fat steers, aging. Maybe we need to go to all of these liposuction places and get young fat and transplanted people normally can run, but go and explain this to explain this, this concept.

[00:54:00] [00:54:00] Joel Greene: [00:54:00] Yeah. So I take three, four chapters really in the book, and I talk about, uh, at length and talk about body fat because it's a crux mechanism. And basically what I pretty sure the book will do is that. The idea that body fat resides under the Aegis of sort of just being fit, that that's, that ends. If you read those chapters, it will end. Um, and really funny fat moves under a bigger umbrella, which is whole body immunity, immunology, uh, anti-aging and whole body health. And it's just an outgrowth of understanding how that actually works. And the. Weird to think but impossible. But true thing is that as an industry, we haven't been dealing with what's true about body fat. And when, when you dissect what's really true, it shifts your focus. And so the, the final chapter in that, a series of chapters is talking about old fat verse young fat. And basically what I, what I show is that. Beginning in the gut, you have issues [00:55:00] of what's called macrophage infiltration, where basically signals and macrophages from the gut translocate into fat mass. And once they translocate into fat mass, you have a propensity for immune immunological profiles in your fat mass. So what I, what I show in the book is that. Fat is a system with multiple configurations.

[00:55:28] Carl Lanore: [00:55:28] Oh, fat is a system with multiple configurations and, and he will be right back in just two seconds. So hold on, let me, uh, let me do this first. Let me get him up here. Matt, you were saying fat is a, is a system. Hold on with multiple configurations. I got to get myself back on camera here. Here we go. Okay. Pick it up from there. Fat is a system with multiple configurations.

[00:55:52] Joel Greene: [00:55:52] Yeah. So we've been under the idea that body fat is just about cells. That's not true. Uh, fat is actually a very complex system and you'd have [00:56:00] to just read those chapters to understand it. But fat is a collection of very specific proteins, uh, over a dozen different immune cells. Um, very key collagen fibers in a matrix in the ECM that have very configurable States and all these things together form a system. And that system can have multiple configurations. And it's the configuration that matters. So what I talk about in the book is what's called the SAS phenotype. And that stands for a secretory associated phenotype. And that's when fat takes on a, an old configuration and old fat and young fat are very, very different. And one of the ways we can stay young is to keep our fat young versus old. So one of the key differences in old fat versus young fat is that. Body fat has a, a balance between young fat cells and old fat cells. And the way body fat renews is through STEM cells within [00:57:00] fat cells, they're called preadipocytes. So the thing to understand is that preadipocytes normally mature out and differentiate into fat cells. That's the normal process. They don't have to do that. They can mature out and become macrophages. They can, they can go other directions. So what happens as we get older is preadipocytes stop maturing out into young fat cells, and they take on this inflamed configuration of the fat. So where you see all fat has some very, very specific configuration dynamics to it. It has a preponderance of M two macrophages. It has a preponderance of very specific types of collagen fibers. And it creates a, a, what's called a secretory phenotype, where the inflammatory state of old fat essentially downloads itself across the body. And this is one of the ways that cellular senescence and inflammation,

[00:57:57] Carl Lanore: [00:57:57] just going to say this is exactly the [00:58:00] model of cellular senescence. You've got a senescent cell and it's thought the poison, all the  and cells around it. Yeah,

[00:58:06] Joel Greene: [00:58:06] and, and it, one of the, because of the sheer number of cells with body fat, it acts like a megaphone for the immune system. And so inflammatory immune signals from fat essentially begin to hijack the rest of the body more or less. It's kind of a very broad analogy, but the SAS phenotype in the book, I call it SAS mode, just to make it easy to understand. The SAS phenotype is characteristic of old fat. And one of the outcomes of that is metabolic flexibility declines. So when you're young, you can store fat and you can burn fat, and that's a characteristic of young fat. Old fat doesn't do that. Old doesn't even store fat. So what happens is those, those free fatty acids spread to other parts of the body, and then you start to get visceral

[00:58:52] Carl Lanore: [00:58:52] fat.  visceral fat, intramuscular fat, liver fat, you know? I mean, it's not to infiltrate everything.

[00:59:00] [00:59:00] Joel Greene: [00:59:00] Yeah. Right. And so you see this dysfunction of the a fat. It doesn't do, it doesn't, it doesn't burn it and it doesn't store it. It just acts like an inflammatory megaphone system. So one of the, one of the ways that body fat is going to change, I, I believe, um, once people start reading this book is we're not going to be thinking about fat and fat reduction is purely just this thing you do for fitness. You're going to start to see that it's really a very important part of staying young. Excellent.

[00:59:26] Carl Lanore: [00:59:26] Really, really good. Jeff Clifton has another question, so let's get it up here and let me, let me, let me put this away and let's get this up

[00:59:34] Joel Greene: [00:59:34] there.

[00:59:35] Carl Lanore: [00:59:35] So he says, is there an easy answer for feeling worse when every test on the paper is showing improvements in glutathione tests? I guess he means testosterone tests and homocysteine markers in short, does healing hurt. I'm not sure what he means by that. What does healing her? Oh, I see what he's saying. He says on paper, he looks, he's getting better, but he doesn't feel good, [01:00:00] I guess is what he's saying.

[01:00:02] Joel Greene: [01:00:02] Uh, so Jay, I think Jeff said that he has CBO. Um, and uh, yeah, so I mean, that makes sense. So if you've got, if you've got bacteria where it shouldn't be in the gut, then you're going to have, you're going to have a nut section of the gut. What essentially is going on is you're going to be having, um, inflammatory issues from the junctions of the gut being opened up. Butyrate production isn't really working the way it's supposed to. And so essentially it's like you have, um, all your markers show you're healthy. But what's really going on is it's kind of like having an injury, a localized injury. So the macro picture could probably be good, but, but there's a localized injury, um, in that area. And. You're, you're probably not going to feel good until you get that fixed. Um, CBRE was very tough there. There is a, there's an antibiotic that works very well on it, and then I'm generally

[01:00:57] Carl Lanore: [01:00:57] Xifaxan so, so, so, you know, I gave myself [01:01:00] CBO as I admitted a little while ago by taking way too many probiotics for too long and, and high fiber, by the way, which I, I have a new opinion of fiber. I mean, fiber is one of those things that a little bit is good. Too much, maybe not so good. So. Okay. What do you want to talk about that FNS yeah. Okay, so I ran LL three seven and it did wonders for me. It did wonders for me. I ran it twice, but it didn't get rid of all of the CBO. It wasn't until I did a. 42 day round, well, 48 day round of Xifaxan. Now, here's the problem with  is I've acted as the, I hate antibiotic, but Xifaxan is an antibiotic that stays confined to the small intestine, and that's it. It's not delivered systemically. It just stays in the small intestine and it will eradicate CBO. That is the antibiotic that dr Satish Rao came on my show and talked about his, [01:02:00] his study on a CBO. And D lactic acidosis. That's how he got rid of it for people. But here's the problem. If you go to your doctor, he'll write you a prescription for Xifaxan, but even if you get special discounts right from the manufacturer, you'll spend between 1400 and $2,000. For that round of Safaxon, which most people just go, I can't do that. And so what other doctors, so what doctors do as well? Well, we'll just give you some other antibiotic. It'll do the same thing. It does it, but I found a pharmacy in Canada can ship meds.com it's called Mark's on Marine. I got my whole script filled for $99 plus shipping. So now. So I fax it is in the reach of the average person who wants to take it and see if it reads them of their CBO. And I guarantee it

[01:02:54] Joel Greene: [01:02:54] will. Yeah. I'm not a fan of of antibiotics normally, but in [01:03:00] the case of CBO, uh, you just there, you got it. You just have to it. It works. It works. The only thing I don't like about that now, biotic, I believe it's in a class of open nines.

[01:03:09] Carl Lanore: [01:03:09] No, it's not. It's not. No. I, I wouldn't have taken it because I don't want any soft tissue injuries. It's not, it's not. No, it's not a floor window. No.

[01:03:19] Joel Greene: [01:03:19] Okay. Well that's

[01:03:20] Carl Lanore: [01:03:20] good. So let's talk about fiber. Let's talk about fiber. So I assume there's a new cereal out that's 30 grams of fiber per serving. And you know, we haven't eaten this much fiber since we were Australia.  in my humble opinion. And isn't there a problem with all the overloading of fiber that people eating today.

[01:03:43] Joel Greene: [01:03:43] Uh, so that fits under the baby talk stuff. So fiber's bad. Fiber's good. It fits under that. Um, fiber fiber belongs under what went and how fiber is essential. You have to have fiber because you can't make butyrate without fiber. And if you can't think of your rate, then you'll destroy the [01:04:00] gut. So fiber is essential, but you can enter the guy with too much fiber. So it just gets into what, when, and how? Uh, I, I've seen a lot of like, uh. A lot of lately kind of anti fiber stuff circulating with one dude who's an MD that said, there's no need for fiber. Just crazy stuff. And the question with fiber, just fiber as a word. Um, but really when you look at fiber, it's multiple classes of very unique substances in those substances fit into what, when, and how. And when you look at fiber that way, and fiber as a way to spin up your rate prior to a fast, it's absolutely essential. Um, you can do miraculous things with it. What a lot of people get into is they have gut injury and they start taking fiber. So here's the problem with that. Um. Butyrate is the currency of, you've got, you need Buddha, right? But the problem is if you have gut injury of any kind, you've got collitis, you've got a worn down, gut [01:05:00] line, anything like that. Okay. Butyrate cannot work in a guy. And the reason it cannot work is the, the, the transporter MCT one monocrop Monika carboxylase transporter, it gets shut down. So

[01:05:14] Carl Lanore: [01:05:14] because of the, because of the wound.

[01:05:17] Joel Greene: [01:05:17] Uh, no. It has to do with what happens when cells begin to utilize sugar at length in the gut once. So butyrate is a preferred food, food of the colon, and then it's what? The large intestines, your intestines need to replete the gut lining by helping to cross feed and make for the bacteria and all the signaling happens of uterus. So you have to have it. But the problem is when there's gut injury, you cannot go high fiber first. When there's got injuries because the gut cannot use fiber when there's got injury, can't make uterus. So if you have got injury, you first have to restore the gut lining. And one of the ways I talked about in the book, there's, there's a lot of ways to do this, but one ways is [01:06:00] a orange juice can be something really good because you get a very high level of the ScoreBig depletion in the injured gut, and then you have very high oxidative stress in the lining of the gut. And one of the ways to restore that is to base the gut in ascorbic ascorbic acid. And then combine that with fasting. And there's a lot of other ways to do this,

[01:06:21] Carl Lanore: [01:06:21] but you're talking about natural forms of, of shore bait because there is a lot of evidence out there that natural forms are different than just some supplement.

[01:06:30] Joel Greene: [01:06:30] Uh, or she specifically is like what I was talking about. Um, but my point with all of this is that a lot of people try fiber and they go and it really messed me up. It's cause they have gut injury. And you cannot know how to fiber first and see you clean up the got entry. That's the point

[01:06:45] Carl Lanore: [01:06:45] that, so Jeff Clifton has a question about thyroid markers. Uh, T3 and I'm going to put it up there, but Jeff, I want you to message me, uh, after the show, cause I've got some questions for you. But he, he's asking, uh, about [01:07:00] thyroid markers are good except elevated reverse T three and TSH. I don't know what came first. The gut issue. Or this elusive possible thyroid issue. Sorry for all the questions. I don't mean to hog the feed. You, you have any information about the gut and thyroid?

[01:07:17] Joel Greene: [01:07:17] Uh, well, I mean, it's, it's just, it's, it's a very, very big topic. I would just say that it's the gut first. That's where your issues start. And then, you know, related to the thyroid, there's. He gets ended up just a whole bunch of things. I don't, I don't want to look stupid and try and, you know, answer like there's too many nuances. Yeah.

[01:07:37] Carl Lanore: [01:07:37] And I'm, I want Jeff, I want you to message me on, on, uh, on Facebook here because I'm going to ask you to go have a couple of tests. Study that through your doctor or any lab test. Now I, I think I can, I, I've suffered with some of these same issues and I think I have just a little tad insight into what to look at. And then how to fix it. You'll have to read Joel's book. That's the, that's the easiest thing to do. So [01:08:00] let me give the book a plug again. Yes. The book is called peak human, how? I'm sorry, how to hack your way into a younger body, and I liked that because it implies that all is not lost. If you've been living with these problems for awhile, you could get it at Veep, nutrition.com forward slash book. Get on it soon because. There's some special offers there that will be gone very shortly, and then you'll have to pay full price. I would go ahead and get the digital and the hard copy personally. Um, there is information in this book waiting for you to mine that will help you immensely in your life, in your physical goals, and in your ability to age well. Uh, these are all things that Joel has learned on his own. To preserve his own 50 something year old body. How old are you now, Joel? Did you

[01:08:54] Joel Greene: [01:08:54] find,

[01:08:55] Carl Lanore: [01:08:55] I mean, it's, it's amazing. He doesn't, he doesn't dye his hair folks. Just, [01:09:00] just put that out there. But the reason I've been wearing a hat is I'm going to get my hair dyed in a colored and cut today because I'm going to Las Vegas for the forum convention. Any of you that are going to be there messaged me on Facebook. I'd love to meet you. But that's the, that's the deal. Go to Veep, nutrition.com forward slash book. Get the book today. I'm telling you, there's nothing that Joel talks about that isn't completely and supremely researched. And also he applies. He has thousands of people who use Veep, nutrition.com to create their own meal plans to heal their own problems. So don't just get the book, but sign up for the service too, because he is changed. So many people's lives with his information, his insight, it's insights about nutrition. There was nobody else out there like Joel. Nobody. I say that with all, with all deference to all the other gurus out there, but there's nobody out there like Joel.

[01:09:59] Joel Greene: [01:09:59] Thank you, Carl. Thank [01:10:00] you very much,

[01:10:00] Carl Lanore: [01:10:00] and thank you for being here. Thank

[01:10:03] Joel Greene: [01:10:03] you for having me. Good to see you.

[01:10:05] Carl Lanore: [01:10:05] And if I don't speak to you, you have a great holiday. Merry Christmas. And I will have you on the show more often in the new year, I promise you.

[01:10:14] Joel Greene: [01:10:14] All right, cool. Great talking to you, man. Okay,

[01:10:16] Carl Lanore: [01:10:16] talk soon. And then we are going to say goodbye now, uh, because, uh, it's the end of the show. I'm off the air tomorrow, uh, because I'll be traveling to Las Vegas. See you when I get back with lots of good information from the world Congress of anti-aging. [01:11:00] .