[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of super human radio. Today is Monday, November 4th, 2019 for those of you listening to this show a hundred years from now, and realizing that. We knew a lot more than the general population about staying alive, staying fit, and uh, aging better. And today's discussion is going to be on nutrition.

[00:00:21] Uh, I'm joined by a good friend of mine and also a, a pass contributor to. Super radio's blog, and that's none other than Alex leaf. How are you doing Alex?

[00:00:33] Alex Leaf: [00:00:33] I'm doing good, y'all. How are you?

[00:00:34] Carl Lanore: [00:00:34] Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Yeah, I'm doing good now. You know I got sick on that trip. I told you I came home with some sort of upper respiratory virus and it is hanging on.

[00:00:42] I mean, this is well past two weeks and I still don't feel back to myself again. So, so here's what I learned. Alex. Save thousands and thousands of dollars. Uh, don't go on a cruise. Just go to a local hospital and lick the floor. And, uh, and you're like, [00:01:00] yeah, you'll, you'll, you'll achieve the same end result is going on a cruise.

[00:01:03] So there you go. So today's interview is probably going to piss some people off. Um, but if you are open to the truth and fact, and you are a critical thinker and not an emotional. A person, a, you should pay very, very close attention to this discussion for a long time. Uh, many people have distinguished and including myself.

[00:01:28] Up until probably a year and a half ago, I started to rethink this whole thing. Um. We've, we've, we've distinguished when we were eaters, have grass fed, grass, finished beef, uh, or even organic GF GFP, you know, somehow we were eating a better quality of beef. And there are those out there who say, ah, that's really not true.

[00:01:54] So you've dug into this research, correct?

[00:01:57] Alex Leaf: [00:01:57] Yeah, that's right.

[00:01:58] Carl Lanore: [00:01:58] So what made you even look [00:02:00] at this, Alex. Okay.

[00:02:02] Alex Leaf: [00:02:02] Um, well actually I'm in the process of finalizing a fat loss program. Um, it's 18 different lessons that I give a presentation on and. Hopefully around the beginning of the new year, people will be able to purchase the program and be able to optimize their body composition goals.

[00:02:27] And so one of the lesson plans that I want to include as kind of a, uh. Easter egg is one called nutrition myths and misconceptions, and it doesn't really have a lot to do with fat loss, but it's just somewhere where I address a lot of common belief in nutrition and look at what we actually know about the topic and help clear the air on some of the things that a lot of people tend to get dogmatic about.

[00:02:57] Carl Lanore: [00:02:57] So now, now we should say at this point [00:03:00] that, uh, you are not someone who makes nutritional suggestions because you are an Instagram phenom, but you've actually gone to school. You have a master's degree, correct. Yeah. In nutrition, right? Yup. But you also have something else, or you're a certified sports nutritionist as well, right.

[00:03:20] Alex Leaf: [00:03:20] Yeah. I've been a sports nutritionist with the ISS N for about four years,

[00:03:25] Carl Lanore: [00:03:25] so in fact, you don't just. Post cool stuff, uh, on social media and build a huge following and air go. All of your thoughts are correct. You actually worked very, very, I would even say that some people would say, you know, that Alex sleep, he's just confrontational because he's so disagreeable, but the reality is you're not disagreeable.

[00:03:46] They are that, in fact, you spend a lot of time and effort reading studies. Isn't that amazing? Go figure.

[00:03:59] Alex Leaf: [00:03:59] Yeah, I

[00:04:00] [00:03:59] Carl Lanore: [00:03:59] mean, most people just make stuff up today, and if they have a big enough following on social media, everybody just assumes that they know what they're talking about. Isn't that an interesting phenomenon today?

[00:04:11] Alex Leaf: [00:04:11] Yeah. But you know, I would also challenge that there's a huge problem with the other side of the coin, which is that, um, you know, on one end you have people that do exactly as you say, they build up a huge following. They have, um. Ideas that generate revenue for them, and so they have a huge incentive to continue to promote something, even in the face of contradictory evidence.

[00:04:40] Um, but on the other hand, you also have a lot of people who can't seem to think outside. The evidence that is available and do what I like to call logical speculation, where you take things that haven't been a well investigated, but you, you're still able to generate conclusions about [00:05:00] them based on what is known and using the little logical speculation.

[00:05:05] Um, and I've gotten into arguments with both, uh. You know, I've had people, uh, my friends Chris master John, has coined the term evidence-based nutrition troll. Um, and it basically just describes people that. Ask you for a pub med study to back up everything you say when you know that's not always appropriate.

[00:05:29] Uh, for example, there, it hasn't ever been a randomized controlled trial conducted to tell us that pair of suit parachutes, save lives of people jumping out of. A plane, but so it's like, do you need to have a randomized controlled trial to conclude that parachutes are probably a good idea? No.

[00:05:49] Why? Because you can logically speculate that because of gravity, when you jumped 30,000 feet out of the air, you're going to die if you don't have a parachute.

[00:06:00] [00:06:00] Carl Lanore: [00:06:00] No, I, that's a, that's a really, really great analogy. And, and I see these people in social media as well. They're lazy. These are very, very weird.

[00:06:11] When when you post something, even if it's science-based. And then you make an assertion based on that science, you extrapolate because, because critical thinkers have the ability to extrapolate, you know, if, if, if, if this does that, eh, and, and this leads to. That. Then the thing that leads to that probably does that as well.

[00:06:33] And I, I'm, I'm oversimplifying this, but the reality is then you have some, uh, uh, an intellectually lazy person who wants to disagree with you, but doesn't want to put in the time to do the research because in fact, they may be dissuaded to think differently. Uh, just, we'll post, you know, post this post to studies.

[00:06:54] Like, now I'm supposed to go back and spend my time. A PO, finding studies to post to [00:07:00] convince this person when in fact, I don't want to convince that person of anything. In fact, you know what, I, I'm, I've come to the conclusion that there is a thinning of the herd going on today because of the inappropriate information about nutrition and may not be a bad thing actually 200 years from now, because there's gotta to be a lot of stupid people who just follow.

[00:07:24] Uh, the, the people who have the power today, which are the ones spending the money to make them think certain things, uh, that, uh, won't, their genes won't be in the gene pool two, 300 years from now. And that may not be a bad thing, actually. Am I, am I being cynical? You think I'm getting too old?

[00:07:39] I'm starting to become an angry white guy.

[00:07:42] Alex Leaf: [00:07:42] No. Our population is already growing at unsustainable rates. So, you know, we need some people to leave

[00:07:51] Carl Lanore: [00:07:51] and why and why not be people who actually don't contribute to the, the, the sum of human knowledge. Uh, but [00:08:00] instead of follow like lemmings to the cliff edge.

[00:08:05] Alex Leaf: [00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:06] Carl Lanore: [00:08:06] So let's go ahead and, uh, get some of those people to line up at the cliff. So let's talk about this. So. Where did you start when you wanted to determine whether or not there was truly a value or justification in seeking out organic grass fed beef as opposed to conventional

[00:08:26] Alex Leaf: [00:08:26] beef? Um, well.

[00:08:31] I came across, uh, there were recently some large Medan analyses that looked at, uh, organic meats and compared them to conventional meats. And these have also been done with produce and dairy products. Nothing for a cause yet. Um, but I was having trouble when I was looking through it and looking through the supplemental materials.

[00:08:57] They never actually, uh. [00:09:00] Did a good job stratifying by, um, animal type and because they included pork, chicken, lamb, and beef, and I think there was rabbit and goat all as well. Um, but also it's hard to, uh, it was hard to determine whether these were actually grass fed animals because the organic labeling.

[00:09:25] The organic certification in the U S requires that the animals be raised on pasture only up until about, I think it's somewhere between 60 and 120 days before slaughter, at which point they're allowed to be fed grain. And we have at least one study I'm aware of where they feed cattle. Uh. Grain.

[00:09:49] They switched them from grass to grain and track over time, changes in their fatty acid composition. And it shows that when you start grain feeding a cow, the [00:10:00] changes occur started occurring pretty rapidly within about 30 days. And so I didn't think that this would be really a fair comparison because although there are, um, some grass fed beef that are finished on grain.

[00:10:17] To help increase the consistency in the, the parameters of the meat and the such. Um, most people who are looking for grass fed wants to be grass fed throughout its entire life, right? So grass fed and grass finished.

[00:10:32] Carl Lanore: [00:10:32] And so the reality is that all cows, cattle raised for beef or grass fed up until that.

[00:10:43] A period of time where they're getting ready to process them and they want, and then they'll feed them a high corn diets because they put on weight rapidly, like a couple pounds a day would, and it's considered mostly fat, uh, that they're putting on. And so the [00:11:00] reality is that all cows are grass fed.

[00:11:02] The distinguishing attribute should be the grass finished part when you agree with that.

[00:11:08] Alex Leaf: [00:11:08] Yeah. Yeah. I definitely would.

[00:11:11] Carl Lanore: [00:11:11] So what, what did change in the fatty acid composition of cows that were finished on grain before processing?

[00:11:20] Alex Leaf: [00:11:20] Well, I actually didn't want to use those meta analyses because they weren't specific enough for me and I didn't want to mislead anyone in my analysis.

[00:11:29] So serendipitously, I came across a, just a recent publication that came out. This year in the journal of meat and muscle biology by researchers from Michigan state university. And what these researchers did is they actually purchased. Um, grass fed beef from 12 produce producers across the U S that existed in 10 States.

[00:11:58] Uh, and the, the beef was [00:12:00] supplied by farms raising as little as 25 head of cattle to as many as 5,000 head of cattle per farm. And so while some of these beef are likely. To be finished on grain. I really liked this one because it's going to give us a realistic look at what the differences are on average in grass fed beef that is commercially available for sale.

[00:12:26] So like if you go to whole foods and you want grass fed beef,

[00:12:29] Carl Lanore: [00:12:29] right, would, which is important because what good is doing a study on beef that the average consumer finds unattainable.

[00:12:39] Alex Leaf: [00:12:39] Exactly. So there might be some different. And the other thing is that they also provided ranges. And so, I mean.

[00:12:48] Like one of the farms in here only had 25 heads of cattle on it. These were pure pasture grass finished, and the researchers told us what their values were for various parameters. They gave you [00:13:00] the range, and so you can actually see what the best possible outcome that they found among the beef was, rather than just looking at averages that might be diluted because of some of the other ones.

[00:13:13] Right, right. And so, I mean, a really, really good example of that is, um, so they, they wanted to get the exact same type of beef cuts. So they purchased a grass fed beef loin, things like a Tenderloin that's

[00:13:28] Carl Lanore: [00:13:28] nice, which, which, which, which has a, has an observable leanness to it. Uh, and also, uh, an observable density to the muscle, which, which makes it really a great cut, uh, to use as a barometer.

[00:13:43] Alex Leaf: [00:13:43] Yeah. Yeah. And so I looked up the exact same cuts of meat on the USDA database and as my comparison point, because the study didn't like purchase conventional beef to serve as a control group, it was just interested in quantifying [00:14:00] what existed in commercially available grass fed beef. So all of my comparison points come from me pulling, uh, the average of conventional beef.

[00:14:11] Um, of the same cut as a comparison point. So, well, the

[00:14:17] Carl Lanore: [00:14:17] first

[00:14:18] Alex Leaf: [00:14:18] biggest difference that you'll see is in the fact that this is where most of the differences exist is in the fat and grass fed beef is way leaner than conventional. Uh, on average, the grass fed beef that they analyzed had only. 0.7 grams of total fat per 100 grams or three and a half ounces of beef, and yeah, yeah.

[00:14:49] That's leaner than the chicken breast. Um, and so when you look at, uh, the conventional counterpart, it has 5.6 grams of fat. So [00:15:00] there's a five gram fat difference. Between them or about, or

[00:15:04] Carl Lanore: [00:15:04] I was going to say about 48%. I'm sorry, 42%. Uh, am I right about, wait a minute. What am I thinking? I gotta reverse that out.

[00:15:14] No, uh, I'm thinking a 92% difference in the amount of fat, right. Am I getting to my math Crick crooked

[00:15:23] Alex Leaf: [00:15:23] here? I have no idea, and I'll forget about it. I'm just

[00:15:27] Carl Lanore: [00:15:27] going to blame. I'm going to blame it on the D. I'm going to blame it on the decongestant. That's all. Yeah. So, and, and is there any difference in the quality of that fat?

[00:15:38] Do we in fact see the, uh, the hypothetical higher degree of, of, uh, Omega six is a nine versus threes in the conventional side.

[00:15:51] Alex Leaf: [00:15:51] Yeah. So as part of of the stuff I talked about in my presentation, what I did is. For this [00:16:00] part, for the individual fatty acids, I took the most common arguments that you'll hear on the internet about why you should purchase grass fed beef, and I used the best possible outcomes to support those arguments.

[00:16:14] So for example, when we're looking at the total Omega six fatty acid of the beef cuts, I didn't look at the average of the grass fed beef as my comparison point. Instead, I took the lowest recorded value. And compare that to the average of conventional. Um, I took the highest recorded value of the Omega three fatty acids and Uh, compared that to conventional, and I took the highest recorded value of the conjugated linoleic acid or CLA content of the grass fed beef.

[00:16:44] And compared that to the conventional, because I wanted to represent grass fed beef in the best possible light I could to illustrate to everyone just how insignificant the differences are when we actually dig into it.

[00:16:59] Carl Lanore: [00:16:59] And so [00:17:00] how insignificant are

[00:17:01] Alex Leaf: [00:17:01] they. Okay. Well, let me first say what you'll probably hear on the internet.

[00:17:06] So based on this study and my comparisons, here's what, uh,

[00:17:09] Carl Lanore: [00:17:09] Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me, let me throw the first myth out that I learned was a myth a couple of years ago. A piece of grass fed beef has as much Omega threes in it as a piece of salmon. You've heard that one,

[00:17:23] Alex Leaf: [00:17:23] right? Oh, you haven't?

[00:17:26] I

[00:17:26] Carl Lanore: [00:17:26] actually heard that one at a. At an event where a grass fed beef company was. Are promoting their product. It wasn't a well known one. In fact, I, I, it was a paleo event and it was a new company and they were trying to create this subscription service. And the guy who ran the, the company was there and he said to a group of us that are piece of grass fed grass finished beef has, is a much Omega three fatty acids as a piece of salmon.

[00:17:57] And I am guilty of repeating that [00:18:00] until I realized that it was a lie.

[00:18:02] Alex Leaf: [00:18:02] Yeah. Yeah. That's not even even remotely close to what, at least for this study shows. So I don't know where they got that from. Um, I don't know. Maybe they fed the beef salmon meal. Maybe that plays a role in it.

[00:18:19] Carl Lanore: [00:18:19] I don't know.

[00:18:20] In fact, I'll tell you, I'm going to tell you something. I had no intention of talking about this, but John Wood, who owns and runs 'em, uh. Grassland beefs, uh, uh, us wellness, meats.com. I said that to him and he looked at me flat. Now he has every reason to go with that and go, Oh yeah, I said that to him.

[00:18:38] He goes, no, that's just flat out a lie. And he's a guy who sells beef. And that's when I thought, maybe I need to look into this. And I did. And I found out that in fact, that is probably the biggest lie I've ever heard told about grass fed beef and that company, I don't even see them anymore.

[00:18:55] So, you know,

[00:18:55] Alex Leaf: [00:18:55] they have gone. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, [00:19:00] so some of the, some of the internet claims, uh, based on my dad, he, here's what, here's what you'll hear on the internet. Grass fed beef has 20 times less Omega six, two and a half times more Omega three. And in Omega six to Omega three ratio of one compared to 16 in conventional beef, that

[00:19:23] Carl Lanore: [00:19:23] would be outstanding.

[00:19:24] If it was true.

[00:19:25] Alex Leaf: [00:19:25] Yeah, and surprisingly, I'm both grass fed and conventional beef have pretty much the same amount of CLA. Uh, I presume people say grass fed beef has higher levels of CLA when you report it based on a percentage of the fat rather than in absolute amounts. Interesting. Um, because grass beds leaner, right?

[00:19:52] So if you have a given amount of fat of a fatty acid, and you express that just as like a percentage of the [00:20:00] fat, then it'll seem higher. Um, but yeah, uh, what does

[00:20:08] Carl Lanore: [00:20:08] that, what are some of the other lies told about the difference between conventional, well, wait, wait, wait, let, let's, let's, let's, let's talk about this for a second.

[00:20:16] Organic. The cause. This is, this is very fascinating to me. I've always questioned the whole organic thing just because I know that herbicides and pesticides become airborne and we know that they can cross contaminate entire crops miles away from the actual center of spraying. And so I've always wondered how they could guarantee that the cows who were roaming around land.

[00:20:45] And, and, and eating the grass, uh, and, and quite often drinking accumulated water in ponds, creeks, and, and small, uh, bodies of water, uh, that are generally standing [00:21:00] how we can, how they can guarantee that this is organic beef, if in fact they didn't test the final product for the presence of herbicides and pesticides.

[00:21:12] Alex Leaf: [00:21:12] Yeah. That's a good question and I'll, I'll touch on that a little later. Um, but I wanted to kind of finish this, this fatty acid thing, because it's a really good example of how the way in which you choose to report information can completely change the message that the people listening receive.

[00:21:33] So let's take 20 times less Omega six that sounds really, really good in favor of grass fed beef right. But when you look at the absolute amount of fat, that 20 times less than mega six corresponds to a difference of just 300 milligrams per 100 grams of beef. So another way to look at this is if you eat an [00:22:00] entire kilogram of grass fed beef or 2.2 pounds, then you're only avoiding three grams of Omega six fatty acids compared to FEA.

[00:22:10] Conventional. And that three grams is what you get if you just ate one ounce of almonds or three times less than if you ate an ounce of walnuts. So it seems like a huge difference, but it's going to be completely drowned out based on the other foods in your diet. And this is a huge issue with looking at the ratio to that Omega six to Omega three ratio of one.

[00:22:38] Sounds incredible, but you can't just look at isolated foods because what matters is the ratio of the overall diet. And so even though the ratio of grass fed beef is so low and amazing, um, it's based on such minuscule amounts of fatty acids, is that other stats sources in your diet are easily [00:23:00] going to drown out what the beef contributes.

[00:23:04] Carl Lanore: [00:23:04] Very

[00:23:04] Alex Leaf: [00:23:04] interesting. Yeah. So now let's look at how grass fed beef has two and a half times more Omega three fatty acids. Again, that's pretty impressive, but it corresponds to a difference of just 28 milligrams per 100 grams of beef. So if you eat a kilogram of grass fed beef, you're getting just 280 milligrams more Omega three fatty acids, and of the 280 milligrams of Omega three fatty acids, 200 of those.

[00:23:34] Are from alpha linoleic acid, which is the plant. They still may get three fatty acid that's not readily converted into EPA or DHA in humans, right? Um, specifically less than 6% on average, is turned into EPA in less than 3% to DHA. So if you look exclusively at EPA and DHA. An entire kilogram of grass fed [00:24:00] beef gives you at most 140 milligrams of EPA and 10 milligrams of DHA, you can get the same amount of EPA in 14 times more DHA from eating just 14 grams or half an ounce of King salmon.

[00:24:19] No,

[00:24:20] Carl Lanore: [00:24:20] but what about the, who will argue that while those may be insignificant as a single serving. They are contributory overall through the day of one of your

[00:24:32] Alex Leaf: [00:24:32] meals. No, that's ridiculous. You have to eat a kilogram of grass fed beef to get just 140 milligrams of EPA and 10 milligrams. Yeah. It's really nothing.

[00:24:43] Carl Lanore: [00:24:43] It's like, it's almost reminds me of the, uh, the smarmy advertising that companies put on their packaging. A good source of Omega threes, and you find that it has 14 milligrams of mega threes in it. In a serving.

[00:25:00] [00:25:00] Alex Leaf: [00:25:00] Yeah. Kind of the same thing. Yeah. It's ridiculous. Yeah. And so then let's look at CLA, right.

[00:25:06] Grass fed and conventional beef have equivalent amounts of CLA about 20 milligrams per a hundred grams of beef. And that's absolutely nothing. Uh, one of the best controlled studies on the effects of CLA in humans. Found that over a four week period, supplementing with 2.2 to 2.7 grams of women at CLA per day for several weeks had no significant effect on any health marker other than marginally reducing triglycerides.

[00:25:34] And to obtain that level of CLA intake would require eating 10 to 12 kilograms of grass fed beef. Um, it's just not realistic. Yeah. So, I mean, when you hear people talk about how grass fed beef has more Omega three or CLA or whatever, you need to have context for that statement. A good analogy is that three pennies is 300% more than one [00:26:00] penny, but it's still not a lot of money.

[00:26:03] Carl Lanore: [00:26:03] Yeah, that's a great analogy.

[00:26:06] Alex Leaf: [00:26:06] Um, and we see this with other things too. So the Michigan state university study also looked at the concentrations of minerals and antioxidants. And just like with fatty acids, there was huge variation in many of these compounds, uh, including iron, zinc, copper, selenium, vitamin E, and beta carotene.

[00:26:25] And on average, the amounts of most were higher than conventional beef, but the difference wasn't an appreciable amount. It, it wouldn't be enough to have a notable impact on health or vitamin and mineral

[00:26:40] Carl Lanore: [00:26:40] status. What about, what about other nutrients that we find? Um, and more so with vitamins and stuff like that.

[00:26:48] I mean, there's the argument that. That, uh, the, these cows, because they are allowed because they're designed to, uh, eat grass. Oh, allow [00:27:00] to eat grass for their entire life before processing that. There is some how other health contributors, uh, to eating grass fed beef. Is there, is there anything in, in, I mean, everything else so far seems so insignificant that it makes you think, well, why pay the extra money.

[00:27:19] Alex Leaf: [00:27:19] So my answer to that maybe, um, and I say that simply because maybe there's some type of zoo nutrient that, uh, is affected that hasn't been assessed in the research that I've seen. Right. But based on, on what I've seen, I can't think of anything that would be different between the two, uh, to a notable extent,

[00:27:41] Carl Lanore: [00:27:41] maybe the biggest hopes

[00:27:42] Alex Leaf: [00:27:42] ever.

[00:27:44] Well, I wouldn't go that far. I mean, there's certainly really good environmental and ethical reasons to eat. It's just from a nutritional standpoint, it's not, it's there isn't that big of a difference.

[00:27:55] Carl Lanore: [00:27:55] That's amazing. Um, I want to take our first commercial break. [00:28:00] Okay. When we come back, do you want to start talking about the whole organic thing or do you want some other nutritional stuff you want to cover first?

[00:28:06] Alex Leaf: [00:28:06] Uh, there's two more things about beef I want to cover and then we can switch over to talking about plants.

[00:28:11] Carl Lanore: [00:28:11] Okay? All right, let's do that. Stay tuned. Welcome back. If you're not familiar with Alex leaf and you're listening to the show going, wow, this guy is really on top of his game, he can help you to, his website is Alex leaf.com, and you can go there and reach out to him.

[00:28:28] He's got some amazing blog posts there. First of all, uh, but more importantly could reach out to him and he will help you with your. Personal nutrition, whether you're an athlete or somebody who just wants to regain your health. As you can tell from the discussion, he is all about the real effects and meaning of the science.

[00:28:50] He doesn't have an agenda. He's not a paleo guy or a kedo guy. Uh, what he is is a guy who is interested in the [00:29:00] aspects of real human nutrition. The website again is Alex leaf.com. Check them out. Okay, so let's talk more about the nutritional side before we start talking about organics.

[00:29:14] Alex Leaf: [00:29:14] Okay. Um, thanks for the little brief commercial introduction.

[00:29:19] That was very kind

[00:29:20] Carl Lanore: [00:29:20] of course, of

[00:29:20] Alex Leaf: [00:29:20] course. So this doesn't so much have to do with the nutritional content, right? A, this next part doesn't really have to do with what the beef contains so much as it does what it doesn't contain. And the first one with that is going to be pathogens. So this is probably one of the better arguments outside of, uh, environmental and ethical considerations for purchasing grass fed beef.

[00:29:48] Is that. Um, commercial beef is more often. Oh, and we're moving away from that Michigan state university study that I was talking about earlier. This [00:30:00] is, this is other research. Um, commercial beef is more often contaminated with equal, like, uh, due to how the cattle are slaughtered and brought to market.

[00:30:09] So like the meat and fat come from multiple different animals. And the flutter rates are a couple hundred head per hour. So there's a lot more, uh. Probability that the meat would get contaminated. Sloppiness.

[00:30:22] Carl Lanore: [00:30:22] Sloppiness.

[00:30:23] Alex Leaf: [00:30:23] Yeah. Yeah. With fecal matter, which is where the eco lie comes from, which is the most common foodborne pathogen that causes

[00:30:30] Carl Lanore: [00:30:30] food.

[00:30:30] What about, but what about the, uh, the, uh, internet. Myth, perhaps, uh, that the type of eco lie that is the one that makes people sick. And I, I forget what it is, like E M S one nine six or some crap like that. I mean, I'm just saying, I don't remember what the numbers are. They say, Oh, if you only find that in cows that are fed grains, have you found that to be true?

[00:30:55] Alex Leaf: [00:30:55] No. Uh, that's equalize zero one five, seven, eight, seven. Yes, [00:31:00] that's it. And grass fed and conventional beef have equivalent levels of that bacteria in their feces. Um, the issue isn't that at conventional or grass fed beef have different amounts of that bacteria present in their feces. The issue is specifically how the cattle are slaughtered and conventional cattle have a higher likelihood of being contaminated with feces when they're being prepared to be brought to the market.

[00:31:28] Uh, grass fed beef doesn't. Um, and a related concern is that the bacteria have on conventional beef. Although the Eco-Line concentrations are similar in the feces, the equal, I, that you find in conventional beef demonstrates, uh, greater resistance to common antibiotics. Um, so if you do get any food poisoning.

[00:31:53] There is a chance that it will be more severe and less responsive to medical

[00:31:57] Carl Lanore: [00:31:57] treatment. Okay, so let, let, let's, let's talk about that for a [00:32:00] second. So I did a show a couple of years ago about, um, the eco lie found on produce that has been exposed to glyphosate. And one other. A glyphosate, and there's one other.

[00:32:21] So glyphosate and one other herbicide display, anti-microbial, almost antibiotic, like properties. And as a result of that, when the pH, the crops are sprayed, uh, any, any pathogen on the plant receives a very, very low level. Uh, of this exposure. And as a result, the pathogen undergoes hormesis and becomes more resistant.

[00:32:50] And so therefore, when they wash these plants with the, uh, uh, washers that they cleaned them with, that is supposed to be [00:33:00] anti-microbial in nature and rid the plants of any pathogens that may. Beyond there before they are sent off to market. Those pathogens didn't die from the traditional wash any longer because they were stronger.

[00:33:15] So what about the argument that the reason that is is because conventional cows are given antibiotics, not just to create a herd protection from disease, but also because they get fatter faster. This is well known amongst the beef cattle industry. What about that.

[00:33:34] Alex Leaf: [00:33:34] I think that that could certainly contribute.

[00:33:38] I mean, the bottom line is that regardless of what caused it, the, uh, analyses of conventional cattle show that the, um, pathogens that they contain are more resistant to antibiotics. Um, so I mean. Yeah, maybe it [00:34:00] comes because they eat a feed that has been overly sprayed with pesticides. Um, maybe it comes about for some other reason because they're being fed grains.

[00:34:11] Um, and the pesticides are irrelevant. I don't know. I don't have the answer to that. Um, but

[00:34:18] Carl Lanore: [00:34:18] basically they are more resistant, that's for sure. Yeah.

[00:34:21] Alex Leaf: [00:34:21] Yeah. Um. No. I mean, the one thing with what's the whole discussion about pathogenic bacteria is that the issues kind of a moot point if you just cook your meat.

[00:34:31] Thoroughly, right? Because cooking kills meat and there's a reason why they say to cook your meat too. I think beef is like a, at least 145 degrees Fahrenheit. Um, ideally 165, but then you run into other issues with palatability, you know, some people like their meat, medium rare or whatever. And you also run into issues with the formation of.

[00:34:54] Carcinogens, high heat cooking now,

[00:34:58] Carl Lanore: [00:34:58] which you've written extensively about [00:35:00] and talked extensively over the years. Yup.

[00:35:03] Alex Leaf: [00:35:03] So, I mean, ideally it's this like, might as well if you like, you know, if you like to eat, if you eat your meat undercooked and then you'd probably want to go with grass fed if for no reason other than that's going to minimize your chance of getting sick.

[00:35:19] Um, and that chance might be pretty low. Uh, out of all of the foodborne outbreaks in the U S in 2017, the CDC reported that only 9% of them were due to beef. Um, which isn't insignificant, but you compare that to like 14% for chicken, 21% for mollusks, which are, you know, oysters and other shellfish.

[00:35:45] Uh, um, how many, how

[00:35:48] Carl Lanore: [00:35:48] many for vets?

[00:35:51] Alex Leaf: [00:35:51] Uh, I don't remember that off the top of my head. I just remember some of the animal ones. Uh, okay. But anyway, [00:36:00] point is, is, is, I mean, maybe your risk is low, maybe getting grass fed only reduces the absolute risk of getting sick from like 9% down to like 8%.

[00:36:08] I don't know. Um, but there is a lower risk. Interesting. Um, and so then the other part. That I wanted to talk about relates precisely to kind of what we just said about pesticides. And, um, it's, it's really well known that pesticides and other organic pollutants are lipid soluble and stored in the fat of animals.

[00:36:36] Uh, and that includes humans. Um. And so it makes sense that cattle that are exposed to higher levels of environmental pollutants and pesticides, uh, be it in the environment or on the food that they're eating would contain more toxicants in their meats. Uh. But we don't have a lot of data on this.

[00:36:59] Um, it's [00:37:00] one of those areas where you can speculate logically and come to that conclusion, but there hasn't been a lot of direct investigation into this. And unfortunately, uh, the only area where we do have direct investigation that I know of has to do with glycosate. And that research shows pretty clearly that.

[00:37:21] A feeding glyphosate to cattle doesn't affect their health or their growth. And it doesn't show up in their meat or their milk. Um, so remanent for whatever reason, I haven't looked into the reason why, but ruminants have a really good, uh, uh, ability to detoxify glyphosate from their body so it doesn't appear to negatively affect their health and it doesn't get stored in their meat, their fat.

[00:37:52] Carl Lanore: [00:37:52] When you say it doesn't get short, do you mean zero was found.

[00:37:57] Alex Leaf: [00:37:57] I mean that the researchers, [00:38:00] uh, feed the researchers, took cattle and had them undergo the exact same, uh, growing conditions except for one difference. And that difference was that some cattle received their conventional feed that didn't have any pesticides on it, and the other cattle received conventional feed that was grown.

[00:38:21] Normally that was super rich in pesticides like glyphosate. And when the researchers then killed the cattle, took the meat and are, well, when the cattle got old enough to either produce milk, they took samples of the milk and then the meat cattle, they slaughtered the cattle and took the samples of the meat and they worked.

[00:38:42] Through the meat and the milk for any indication of glyphosate. And they, they looked for the DNA and RNA residues of glyphosate and they couldn't find any. Um, so glyphosate, for all intensive purposes, was not stored [00:39:00] on the cattle and was not excluded in their milk. Um, and that might have to do with, if I had to guess, it would probably have to do with all of the bacteria in there for stomach.

[00:39:10] Right, exactly. Yeah. When you have that many bacteria, you're going to have a really good ability to metabolize substances that you might not otherwise metabolize. And so maybe those bacteria fed on the glyphosate and, uh, were able to detoxify it before it got into the cattle. Because I mean, for humans, we know that, that, uh, mothers who are breastfeeding and live by farms that spray glyphosate, they have glyphosate in their breast milk, and we all know glyphosate's stored in the adipose tissue of humans, right?

[00:39:44] So

[00:39:46] Carl Lanore: [00:39:46] and placenta, it's been identified in the placenta, which means that it gets past that placental barrier that is all. Supposed to be there to protect the baby. I mean, it's, you know, [00:40:00] but that's amazing that cows seem to be here. I could just see their microbes in their stomach going, Oh, glyphosate, we love this.

[00:40:07] So seed it up. Like, you know, meanwhile with us, it passes through and gets into our tissue. I mean, that's really

[00:40:13] Alex Leaf: [00:40:13] amazing. Yeah. So anyway. Oh, I will, I guess there's one more thing I want to talk about. This one's really quick because. This is an area where there's pretty much no research, but it's an interesting thought experiment.

[00:40:29] So we've known since at least the 1970s that stress within 48 hours of slaughter causes gluco corteroids like adrenaline and cortisol infiltrate the meet up. The

[00:40:41] Carl Lanore: [00:40:41] Catalytics thought that it actually toughens the meat and gives them a kind of funky gamey flavor. Right, right,

[00:40:47] Alex Leaf: [00:40:47] exactly. It makes the meat more Siddiq and less tender and it makes it less appealing to the consumer.

[00:40:53] Um, but what I haven't been able to find an answer to is whether [00:41:00] slog or stress or the chronic stress from living on a factory farm environment impacts the nutritional content of the beef. Um, so I mean, it's something to think about, right? Uh, you are what you eat. And so maybe having the gluco corteroids in the meat has a negative impact on.

[00:41:20] A certain nutritional aspects of the meat or even the on our own health when we eat it, because maybe we'll, we would be ingesting some extra cortisol or adrenaline. Right. Um, I don't know. Hasn't been an area that's been research.

[00:41:35] Carl Lanore: [00:41:35] I, uh, this is interesting. A Mennonite farmer I used to do business with years ago, had a cow that wandered out and was hit by a truck, uh, and the cow didn't die instantly.

[00:41:49] It took a long time for the cow to die. And he asked me, he, I said, what'd you do with it? He goes, well, you know, he says, I processed it. He says, um, and you know, [00:42:00] he says, you want to try some? And I said, yeah, sure. And he gave me a couple. What would have been, um, I guess, uh, Sheryl loins and Cheryl wine is a known to be a very tender piece of meat to begin with.

[00:42:16] But it had a flavor. It had a taste to me that, and I don't know if it was just placebo, like I was thinking about it, but it had a taste to me and I couldn't eat it. And, uh, the taste almost was like the smell of creosote. And all I could think of was because. The cow was in such horrible pain before died that it was, it was, you know, just producing so many stress hormones that permeated the meat.

[00:42:45] But it, it, I couldn't eat it. I couldn't eat it. And I've eaten, you know, I mean, I, I hunt, I've eaten lots of animals that didn't die graciously. So it wasn't that, it wasn't like I was, you know, a squeamish about it, but I definitely tasted something different in the meat [00:43:00] that I didn't want to eat it.

[00:43:03] So, um, I want to take all last commercial break. When we come back, we'll wrap up the interview. Uh, we're talking to Alex leaf and he can be your personal assistant for your nutrition. If you go to Alex leaf.com, stay tuned. We'll be right back

[00:43:18] Alex Leaf: [00:43:18] with superiority. Welcome

[00:43:20] Carl Lanore: [00:43:20] back to superhuman radio.

[00:43:21] We'll talk with Alex leaf. His website is his name, Alex leaf.com. Go there, check them out, show them some love. He, there are some amazing blogs on Supima radio.net because of Alex leaf, and they still get read regularly. Brilliant blogs, quite frankly. Um, so were you a big fan of grass fed

[00:43:42] Alex Leaf: [00:43:42] beef?

[00:43:44] Um, well, I personally don't really eat beef. Uh, I can't even remember the last time I've eaten it. And. That is exclusively a function of I just, um, I just eat other foods [00:44:00] instead. Uh, I don't believe there's any necessity to having beef in the diet. Um, I don't really think there's a single food that exists where it's necessary to eat it in the diet.

[00:44:11] Um, so I, I eat. More a chicken and a and dairy, but, uh, just not a lot of beef. Okay. Um, I will eat it if I go out somewhere and when I do eat it, I tried to get grass fed. Uh, but honestly, if I'm going to get grass fed beef, I preferred to try and find bison because I think it tastes better.

[00:44:36] Carl Lanore: [00:44:36] Yeah, Elisa Elisa doesn't eat beef and she's really never eaten beef, but she does eat bison. She definitely distinguishes a difference in the taste and the texture of the meat and bison is becoming very popular.

[00:44:49] Alex Leaf: [00:44:49] Yeah. Yeah. Brand is the same way. She really does is disgusted by the taste of beef, but she loves bison.

[00:44:57] Carl Lanore: [00:44:57] In fact, there's a bison hunt. I'm talking to [00:45:00] my son about in Texas next year about going on a bison hunt. Uh, but the problem with the bison hunt is you're guaranteed to get a bison and, but processing it, shipping it. I would obviously have a bison, a rug made from the hide. You're talking about like $10,000 if you killed the damn thing.

[00:45:22] Yeah, no. Yeah. But you know, I mean, it would be cool to like, and these are all planes. They're on the planes. They don't, uh. You know, they, they just graze, they don't feed them anything, you know, whatever it is, what they eat.

[00:45:36] Alex Leaf: [00:45:36] Yeah. That's awesome.

[00:45:37] Carl Lanore: [00:45:37] Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm hoping to get a black bear this year finally, because I want to have a bear skin rug for the house and bare minerals.

[00:45:45] Very, very good bear. I mean, I've had Barry before. It's actually a cross between a, I would say beef and pork more leaning more to pork, but it's, it's delicious. So I, I would put that meat to good use as well. So

[00:45:58] Alex Leaf: [00:45:58] anyway.

[00:45:59] Carl Lanore: [00:45:59] All right. So in [00:46:00] summary. And the reason I asked you that is because I want them to see where you stay on there.

[00:46:03] So you would still strive to get grass fed if possible. But I guess what you're saying is don't develop an angst and anxiety over the fact that you're not eating grass fed because it's probably not as bad for you as people make it out. Cause you know, I'm a huge proponent of a, if I need to get something to eat, uh, I will drive through Wendy's and by four large beef patties.

[00:46:28] For $5 in change, including tax. That's a, that's a pound of beef already cooked for you. That's an amazing bargain. And sometimes I'll put pictures up on social media and people will go, well, that's not grass fed. The reality is that that's okay, isn't it?

[00:46:43] Alex Leaf: [00:46:43] Um. I mean, that depends on how you wanted to find.

[00:46:47] Okay. Uh, I would personally kind of summarize all of this information in that, uh, there may be small advantages to eating grass fed meat in terms of minimizing the risk [00:47:00] of exposure to antibiotic resistant bacteria. But there doesn't seem to be notable differences in the beef nutrient and toxicant concentrations.

[00:47:09] And this, of course, ignores the environmental and ethical considerations that do pose good rationale for choosing grass fed over conventional. Um. Additionally, because most of the nutrient differences are concentrated in the fat content of the beef. I would say that if you're someone who's going to be cooking with Callow, uh, then you'd probably want to get grass fed tallow because if you're just eating pure concentrated fat, these differences might actually be more significant.

[00:47:37] Yeah,

[00:47:39] Carl Lanore: [00:47:39] that's a good point. I have, I have tallow in the refrigerator, but I've never used it. I don't know why.

[00:47:45] Alex Leaf: [00:47:45] Yeah. And then so related to that too, I would argue that, um, because a lot of toxicants haven't been assessed and because they are lipid soluble, if you're going to eat conventional beef, I would [00:48:00] recommend buying the leanest cut of beef possible, which is probably going to be something from the round.

[00:48:06] Uh, the hind of the cattle, the top round, bottom round I have around.

[00:48:12] Carl Lanore: [00:48:12] What about the flank and the brisket.

[00:48:15] Alex Leaf: [00:48:15] Those can be lean. Um,

[00:48:17] Carl Lanore: [00:48:17] well, if you trim them, right, right, right. People leave. People leave the fat on them when they cook them, but the reality is the fat is all pretty much concentrated to one side of it, which can be easily trimmed off.

[00:48:28] And then you've got a really lean piece of strided muscle meat.

[00:48:32] Alex Leaf: [00:48:32] Yeah, yeah. And a lot of people, a also erroneous Lee believe that there's nutritional value to eating the fat and outside of getting fat, the fat doesn't actually provide much meaningful nutrition. Um, it might, if it's grass fed, it might provide some like beta carotene and maybe some retinol in small amounts, but those are things you could get in far superior quantities if you just ate some [00:49:00] plants.

[00:49:01] Um. So I don't really see a good reason to eat the fat at all. Um, I think that there's way more nutrient dense sources of fat that you can eat.

[00:49:14] Carl Lanore: [00:49:14] Okay. Sounds good. All right. The website again is Alex leif.com. You'll be hearing more of Alex come 2020 or maybe even sooner. We'll get an Alex back on the air more often.

[00:49:25] It's great to have you. Ah, back home again. Let's say that. How's that sound? So there you

[00:49:30] go.

[00:49:31] Alex Leaf: [00:49:31] Yeah. Maybe I can come on pretty soon to finish this conversation by talking about organic produce.

[00:49:37] Carl Lanore: [00:49:37] I, that would be a really good thing to talk about actually. It really would be. Yeah, we'll do that.

[00:49:41] We'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll work with you and we'll get that book pretty quickly.

[00:49:45] Alex Leaf: [00:49:45] Awesome. Thanks Carl.

[00:49:46] Carl Lanore: [00:49:46] Thanks for being here. Alex.

[00:49:48] Alex Leaf: [00:49:48] Yeah. Thank you for having me.

[00:49:49] Carl Lanore: [00:49:49] And we will see everybody tomorrow with more super human radio. We have a show every day this week because next week on the 13th, I leave to go hunting and I'm going to be gone for a [00:50:00] good week or so.

[00:50:00] So I will be reordering some old shows. I got a lot of great emails from people saying, thank you for repairing some of the older shows that I re aired. Uh, just recently a, we're gonna dig up some really good ones for you, so we'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for listening today.