[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] Hey, Hey, welcome back to another episode of super Yuma radio. We have a great show today. Actually it completely revolves around diet. Interestingly enough, uh, we're going to be talking about how during the first hour, uh, how, when and not what you eat may influence a breast cancer. And then later in the show, we have a listener of the show that's coming on to share his story about.

[00:00:25] Uh, going through a few different dietary templates to find optimal health and energy. Uh, he went vegan, he went keto, he went carnivore and he's going to share all of his stories and what he learned, uh, on that journey and where he ended up. So that's, uh, today's show, uh, before we get started, of course we have to thank our title sponsor and that is legendary foods.

[00:00:53] Uh, legendary food just came out with a brand new, uh, tasty pastry. These are the new cake style, tasty pastries. They're [00:01:00] not like the original ones. The original ones were more like. Uh, a Pop-Tart, it was more of a rigid pastry. These are more like soft, uh, flaky, almost like you would, the experience of you eating an Apple turnover and their latest flavor is red velvet.

[00:01:17] Five grams of net carbs, zero sugar, 20 grams of high leucine high-quality protein. If you go to SHR network.biz/legendary and use the code SHR 10, you'll save 10% off your order. If you don't want to buy them and you want to try to win them, we are giving away a lot, a lot of. Free tasty pastries. We're giving away a box a day on every show.

[00:01:40] It's really easy to enter, to win. Uh, just listen to the commercial breaks and during the commercial break, uh, the, you will hear a secret word placed in between two commercial spots. Type that secret word down into an email, send it to on This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it., and you will enter to win. Like we said, we're giving away a [00:02:00] box a day and as a lot of happy people out there, getting them, if you've won already, sit back, sit on your hands and let somebody else win.

[00:02:07] Um, because, Oh, and also we can only ship these to the United States inside the United States, because not because we don't want to incur the postage to ship them elsewhere, but because this is a food product that it has certain restrictions, uh, that have to be met in order to be shipped, uh, to different countries.

[00:02:24] So unfortunately at this point in time until, uh, legendary has distribution. In these other countries, we have to restrict to this giveaway to the United States only. So there you go. And now without further delay, let's go ahead and get my guest on. And he is Dr. Nicholas Webster. How you doing Dr. Webster?

[00:02:48] Welcome to the show and thank you for making time to be here today. So we're good. Good. I'm happy to be extra inviting me. Yeah. And so we're going to talk about a study that you just published, [00:03:00] uh, your group published, looking at, uh, the role of a meal timing, as opposed to what specific foods, one eats and the potential, uh, for, or, or its implications on breast cancer.

[00:03:14] Why, why this study, what work had preceded this, that this study was the next logical step.

[00:03:23] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:03:23] So before I start discussing that, I just want to have a disclaimer. I'm a professor at university of California, San Diego, and I'm also a senior research scientist at the VA hospital in San Diego. So. These, these what I'm about to say, these are my own political views and should not be taken as reflecting any kind of official position by either the university or the BA.

[00:03:46] Understood. Um, but so, so basically, you know, my group has been interested in, um, how. Um, altered metabolism in particular obesity, um, has impacts [00:04:00] on, um, you know, various disease processes. So, you know, we know, we know that obesity will affect metabolism. We know that it causes them to resistance. It disposes towards diabetes, but there's been an obesity, cancer link.

[00:04:14] That's been known for many, many years, um, that we haven't really understood. You know why there's a link and then how to perhaps, you know, manipulate that. So, um, you know, most of the, the, the connection between obesity and cancer has come from a very large observational studies where they've just shown that there's an association of obesity.

[00:04:38] Um, with, um, various cancers and it's actually quite a few cancers, breast cancer, liver cancer, kidney cancer, colorectal endometrial, pancreatic. There's a lot of cancers that seem to be sensitive to your metabolic status, right? And in most cases there's an increased risk. It can be anything up to about a two fold, increased risk, depending [00:05:00] on the particular cancer and the particular population.

[00:05:03] And, and we know that if people lose weight and they lose their obesity, the risk goes down. So it is definitely the, the being overweight that is driving this increased risk. Um, and you know, obesity, you know, we know that it's a, it's an, it's a problem these days. Um, probably 70 to 80% of the us population is overweight.

[00:05:26] And between 40 and 50% would be classed as obese, which are huge numbers of people. And so, you know, we need to address what obesity is doing to all national health. Um, You know, because this is something we're going to have to deal with as a lot of people that even though the sort of the increased risk might not be that much with the sheer number of people that are obese, this gets to be a lot of people that have obesity driven cancers.

[00:05:57] Um, some of the estimates are that they might be anything like [00:06:00] 25,000 cancers per year off specifically because of the obesity. So there's a large number of people that are affected by this. So, um, you know, we've been interested in, in what's the link what's how does their obesity affect, you know, initiation of tumors, how fast they grow, you know,

[00:06:21] Carl Lanore: [00:06:21] can we talk, can we talk about that just for a second to stay with this?

[00:06:24] Just a second. So, um, we know that fat cells, so are. The OB obesity cancer rates. Are they gender skewed by any chance? Do women tend to have higher rates of certain types of cancers than men? When both groups are obese?

[00:06:44] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:06:44] Well, if you look at a cancer that both men and women get say, you know, live a cancel or something else, then there's no real difference in the obesity effect.

[00:06:52] Obviously, when you're talking about prostate cancer, breast cancer, that is very heavily skewed one way or the other. Um, but it does seem to affect [00:07:00] both men and women. Um, one of the reasons is that, um, often menopause, uh, women metabolically. Look much more like Matt. So before menopause, when women's have still have estrogen, that tends to be protected.

[00:07:17] So they tend not to have, um, so much of a metabolic problem with the obesity. But as soon as they hit medicals, they become just like man. And the rates of cancer and obesity are

[00:07:28] Carl Lanore: [00:07:28] exactly the same. Is there any indication that there might be, uh, a role of aromatase enzyme, which resides in fat cells? I mean, we, we hear people talking about how fat is an endocrine system, right?

[00:07:44] Well, so is muscle, but that fat is an endocrine system and it's producing hormones. And sometimes these hormones may predispose someone to cancer, or even if it doesn't predispose, it tends to kind of fan the flames in the case of. Uh, uh, [00:08:00] uh, you know, endometrial, ovarian, breast cancers, um, we know that estrogen plays a role and possibly fanning the flame.

[00:08:10] Is it possible that obese women produce a lot of estrogen in their fat cells and that's could be the link to higher rates of, uh, female related cancers.

[00:08:22] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:08:22] That's one that's one theory. Yes. Um, so yeah. Particularly for, for breast cancer. This has been sort of proposed that the, you can, you can demonstrate aromatase expression, aim out of tissue.

[00:08:34] And so it's both that that could be, you know, local conversion. Um, of steroid into estrogen that would drive a local tumor. So, you know, typically it doesn't change circulating levels that much, it's not like, uh, you know, circulating estrogens are way higher and ever obese woman, but, you know, you could have local production that could affect the smells in that vicinity.

[00:08:56] And they could see, you know, a fairly high concentration, but [00:09:00] kind of once it gets out into the circulation and gets diluted and sort of doesn't seem so. Too much of an increase. So, so that's one possibility. Um, and that would obviously be relevant for the hormone-dependent cancers, uh, Homeland dependent, breast cancer, prostate cancer.

[00:09:14] Um, but others, you know, like liver and colorectal and kidney, they're not hormone sensitive particularly. So it's unlikely that that will be affecting them. Yeah, they still have an obesity driven component.

[00:09:26] Carl Lanore: [00:09:26] So the other, the other component of, of obesity and, and carrying lots, lots of adipose tissue, is it upregulates, uh, in inflammatory markers, right?

[00:09:37] Uh, Uh, inflammatory cytokines. And so the more fat cells you have, the more inflammation you have, and there is some indication that perhaps inflammation is the, maybe the first domino that causes these, uh, unco genes to turn on and, and, and shift to a cancer environment. It could it be, could it just be that, could it be that the fat [00:10:00] cells are just making all this inflammation?

[00:10:01] And we know inflammation is bad for everything.

[00:10:05] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:10:05] Uh, that's another possibility. Um, and there is some evidence for that. Um, not necessarily in, in breast cancer, Elvis, but, um, for example, um, in lung cancer. So there, there was an interesting finding, um, from a cardiovascular trial where they using an anti IL one beta blocker because they thought it would have cardiovascular effects and.

[00:10:29] The one thing they noticed is that the people on this Iowa beta blocker did not get lung cancer. And so all of a sudden, there's this very strong link now between IO one beta, which is inflammatory cytokine, um, driving lung cancer. So you're right. I think that these inflammatory cytokines, they, they modify the local micro environment.

[00:10:51] They cause an influx of inflammatory cells, they cause oxidative damage and they may contribute to that sort of [00:11:00] initiation. Those first, the long congenic effects, um, that you know, where the cell picks up mutations that allow it to stop growing. Um, and they may, they may actually contribute to sort of the later growth, you know, by providing, by providing the blood supply because tumors need a blood supply.

[00:11:17] They're going to grow. And some of these, um, cytokinins can have angiogenic properties. None. So yeah, that, that is a possibility. Yeah. Um, you know, we've kind of looked at that in some of our studies. Um, a few years ago we were looking at. Um, obesity driven breast cancer. And we were looking at whether you could use a, uh, fish oil supplementation to block that.

[00:11:43] And in fact, it did, it worked really well and, you know, to drive the cancers. It was completely eliminated when we gave them a high levels of official. Now, you know, these are, these are really high levels. This is, this would be very difficult to achieve, you know, for humans, [00:12:00] but it did show proof of principle that these things are black and they are known to improve inflammation, suppress inflammation.

[00:12:09] The actually thing we found is when, when we did this in the mice with a tumor. That's the, the ability of these fatty acids to suppress the inflammation is completely overwritten. When you had a tumor, then it seemed like the tumor was driving a much stronger inflammatory effect and the fatty acids the Omega threes could overcome.

[00:12:29] So we didn't see an improvement there. And in fact, when we used. Um, it w uh, um, therapy, a ton of sense Enbrel, which is used in a lot of people. It's a TNF blocker. We use that to block the inflammation and actually did nothing to the tumor group. Interesting. So, so, so I not I'll hand it on models. It actually seems to be more mixed to the inflow levels, the hyperinsulinemia that's in the diabetes, rather than the inflammation.

[00:12:55] So that was actually kind of one of the reasons we, we designed this, uh, recent trial [00:13:00] because we thought that, you know, we know that if you can improve metabolism, reduce the hyperinsulinemia make animals less insulin resistant that, uh, the tumors will not grow as quickly. Um, so the one way that you can do that is with this timed eating, uh, and there's a number of groups I'm particularly such in pandas and a couple others.

[00:13:21] We've done a lot of work on this. Um, when you're not watching is important. So you can either eat a very caloric high-fat diets, high cholesterol diets, but as long as you limit when you eat it and you have a good period of, of fasting without eating, um, that's actually beneficial and can sort of overcome the effect of the diet.

[00:13:44] So we wanted to test that in a cancer model, because this has been shown metabolically, this works metabolically, but no one has looked at this to see whether it would have an effect long-term on cancer. So that's why we designed our study to see if we could get this metabolic improvement through [00:14:00] this time restricted eating, uh, would that actually then translate to impact to McGrath and indeed, that's what we found.

[00:14:10] Fascinating.

[00:14:10] Carl Lanore: [00:14:10] Yeah. So talk about it. Talk about how was the study designed? You had rodents.

[00:14:18] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:14:18] We, you know, it's a, it's a standard model of diet in general.  in mice and we feed them a very high fat diet. So 60% of the calories come from fat. Right. And most of it is kind of laud based fat. So it's, it's, you know, animal fat.

[00:14:36] Um, and the mice love it. But he did like crazy. I eat it 24 hours of the day. They just kind of graze on it all the day. You know, they don't, they don't sleep. And then he, they just basically kind of keep munching at it all day long and they get really fat so we can get mice up to 50 grams or as a normal mouse would be.

[00:14:56] Twenty-five 30 grand, right? So they're basically doubling the [00:15:00] weight in fat. And if you introduce, you know, tumor cells into these, um, and this study was with breast cancer, but we've done this with other cancers too. The tumors grow much faster and much more aggressive and you get more metastasis in the obese animal, right?

[00:15:16] So that's a little modal system. So then we, you know, we put them, we made them fat, so we made the animals obese class, and then we, um, you know, put them all in these different thoughts. So the one where they just continually eat and then the DOD where they had the same food, but they only had access to eight hours a day.

[00:15:36] And it was a nighttime cause that's when my son usually active dental terminal till I eat during the month. So we gave him an eight hour period. They could eat as much as they want. And actually they eat the same amount as the ones that have access to 24 hours. They just couldn't.

[00:15:50] Carl Lanore: [00:15:50] So it was the same, same calories.

[00:15:52] Interesting. That's interesting.

[00:15:53] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:15:53] Yeah, same amount. The thing is they, they, the mice that off that high continued [00:16:00] access, they continue to get fatter and fatter and fatter. Right. The mice that have the time access they're already obese to begin with and they maintain that obesity. They don't lose weight, but they don't put any more weight top.

[00:16:14] Right. So it's kind of stable stabilize their obesity and they're eating the same amount of food has the ones who are continually getting fat.

[00:16:24] Carl Lanore: [00:16:24] So, so wait, wait, wait. There's a nuance here. So that means that. Even the, the person that is already, or the rodent that's already obese seems to get protection from shifting their, their feeding interval to one that more mimics a time restricted feeding interval, even though they're not, because they're not, I thought you were gonna say they lost weight and I'm like, Oh yeah, sure.

[00:16:47] And the inflammation goes down, but no, they, they, they, it was protective just shifting their time of eating.

[00:16:54] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:16:54] Right. That's right. So it's like, it's, it's, it's almost like it's, it's changed the set point of, of, [00:17:00] you know, the body maps. Whereas if you have continued access, that just continues to go up because they're eating all the time without breaking.

[00:17:07] But if you, if you, you just were sick when they eat it, basically resets where they are and they maintain that body weight. And they were beasts to begin with. So they would maintain that, you know, other people like, um, you know, such and pander and others have done studies where you take lead animals.

[00:17:23] When you put in some of these diets and they never put on weight, right. They don't get a piece and they're protected from even VCT. But if you do it the other way and you make them a beast first and put them on this type of restricted diet, they will maintain their obese weight. They don't

[00:17:37] Carl Lanore: [00:17:37] lose it.

[00:17:37] Fascinating.

[00:17:39] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:17:39] So metabolically, if you look at their livers, a liver and an obese animal, they have basically fatty liver disease, right? They have early, you know, nonalcoholic, steatohepatitis, Nash, um, not completely goes away. If you do this time, speeding, the livers look like the come from a thin Halima. And if you look at [00:18:00] inflammation that goes away too.

[00:18:01] So we've created a state where they're obese, but then metabolically healthy. Interesting. And in, in, you know, if you look at the human let's show, the clinical data are these, this has been a sort of a contentious area, whether there is such a thing as a metabolically healthy obese person. No, because there are people out there it's up to maybe 10% of the obese people who, if you actually brought them in and you did a glucose clamp study, or if you assessed them metabolically, they would look past them.

[00:18:33] Fine. They would have normal, they wouldn't have, you know, insulin resistance or any other thing. Um, whereas the other 90% and people argued about this for a long time, whether these people really live or whether this is just. That's that they, they quit, but it might be that, um, this is not really related to the diet and what they're eating or obesity, but rather to when they're eating, because [00:19:00] we can create this metabolically healthy, obese state

[00:19:05] Carl Lanore: [00:19:05] when they eat dog you that if a person is obese and they're only eating at a specific window and we're going to discuss the window, you found, uh, yes, they definitely, as you point out can be.

[00:19:19] Overweight or obese and, and be healthy. But I would argue that that's not the case in America. Uh, when we look at the general population, um, I just gave this analogy recently. So most people who are obese are eating late into the evening. Sometimes they're not observing good sleep hygiene, and that's how they become obese.

[00:19:45] And if you take a snapshot of them, let's say in their thirties, you go, Oh wow. You know, your cholesterol is okay. And your blood sugar is, and, you know, looking at blood sugar and not looking at the amount of insulin the pancreas is having to produce to keep it. There is [00:20:00] really is really a false. Picture, you know, if I'm going up a Hill with my car, I may have my gas pedal to the floor, but I'm only doing 40 miles an hour and I'm burning a lot of guests.

[00:20:10] So someday we'll start checking insulin and blood sugar. And that will give us a true snapshot, but that, but the thing that I would argue about most Americans today is, and I use this analogy and it's very crude, so I'm going to warn everybody now. But if I jumped off a a hundred story building and I went past the 50 story and I went, see, I'm still alive.

[00:20:32] Well, yeah, I'm still alive, but I'm going to be dead shortly because I'm going to hit the ground. And so I would, I would, I want to be careful about is that there's a. A dangerous message to tell people you can be obese and be healthy, um, because yeah, you may be healthy right now, but if you stay on it track, you're not going to be healthy.

[00:20:53] And so let me just be careful because we, we have to be cautious when this discussion is actually becoming very politicized [00:21:00] now. And it's a lightening rod, but yes, you can be healthy today. But if you're eating late into the evening, you're staying up, you know, 10, 11, 12. O'clock watching Jimmy Kimmel and you're eating food and you're getting five hours sleep.

[00:21:12] You get up in the morning and you download all the coffee you can to get started. And then you're eating all day long. You may be healthy for a little while when we take that snapshot, but like the guy who jumped off the building, when you hit the ground, you're going to die and that's it. That's going to happen.

[00:21:24] So I just, I just want to put that out there. I just want to put that out. That's

[00:21:28] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:21:28] very true. And, and when we talk about this, you know, we talk about metabolically healthy, but that doesn't mean obesity is not doing all sorts of other things, right? So it's doing terrible things to your joints, you know, where the extra weight you're carrying around for 60 years, uh, you know, so, so.

[00:21:44] Obesity has all sorts of other effects, but metabolically there has been, this issue is maybe, you know, in terms of how your body handles glucose and nutrition, um, you could actually look pretty okay, even though you are a beast, but I agree [00:22:00] that, you know, obesity has many, many other bad things and you know, people should not think all of a sudden that all I'm fine.

[00:22:07] Carl Lanore: [00:22:07] Stay this way. I just have to change the way I eat all the time that I eat. That that should not be the message. Um, so let's talk more, so one, so how did you look at the, uh, the effect on the tumors, the breast tumors talk about that?

[00:22:22] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:22:22] Well, so we did a number of different models. So, um, the, the effect of obesity on breast cancer is mainly in, um, post-menopausal women.

[00:22:32] So we use two different models of, um, Post-menopausal obesity in mice. One was a, um, basically an ovariectomy. We took out their ovaries and the other was a chemically induced model. So there's a model. You can give them a chemical toxin that basically kills the follicles, the primary and the primordial follicles in the ovary.

[00:22:53] And so over a period of about. 10 weeks, the mice will actually go through what [00:23:00] looks like a menopause where that ovaries stop producing sterile. So we use two different models and then we use a hormone dependence and breast cancer. So an estrogen and progesterone receptor, positive tumor. And we also use the triple negative one, which is not generally hormone

[00:23:18] Carl Lanore: [00:23:18] sensitive.

[00:23:19] Yeah. That's that was good. That's very good that you use both of those

[00:23:22] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:23:22] models. And both of them were inhibited by the, putting them on the time, restricted feeding. Fascinating. And then we look at and look at the cells and on sections of tumors, there's much less perforation and there's much less. Um, vasculature, so angiogenesis and the recruitment of blood vessels to tumor, which is important for tumor growth that appear to be inhibited as well.

[00:23:50] Uh, we did it. So those were in models where we actually put in to myself. So these were established cancer cells and we can inject [00:24:00] them into the memory. Fast button they'll grow like a breast cancer. Uh, we also did it in a spontaneous genetic model. Um, well, the, these, my schizophrenia tumor then had exactly the same effect there.

[00:24:12] Um, it was specific for the obesity though, because we also did it in lean mice, and it had no effect in lean mice. So this is only working on. The obesity component, the obesity acceleration, not if it's not like we were killing the tumor cells off themselves, you know, the tumor cells are still there, but they would just grow at the flow rates that they would get growing.

[00:24:35] And I, and I lean on them.

[00:24:37] Carl Lanore: [00:24:37] Yeah. Yeah. Suspended animation. Two tumors can go into a state of suspended animation where they don't grow. They don't shrink. They just, they just remain the same.

[00:24:45] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:24:45] And, you know, this was a breast cancer study because that was sort of the, the, the most obvious one to do. We've now done this and other cancers.

[00:24:52] We haven't published the data yet. We're still finishing up the studies, but it's also working in other cancers too. So we don't think [00:25:00] this is just something for her breast cancer. We think it, any of the cancers that are  linked, we think this is probably going to walk

[00:25:06] Carl Lanore: [00:25:06] in. Uh, w we have to take a first commercial break.

[00:25:10] When we come back, I want to talk about metastasis. I want to talk about ketone bodies. I want to know, did you look at ketone bodies in these rodents? Um, because we know that, uh, the ketogenic diet has been shown to, uh, stop metastasis. Uh, it's very effective in controlling cancer's growth. Uh, so we'll, we'll talk about that when we come back, uh, this is a fascinating discussion, and this is.

[00:25:34] The thing that I find most fascinating is the rodents didn't get leaner. They didn't lose weight, but they still had this protective effect. That's that's. Should create a lot of hope for women out there, uh, that, Hey, you can get on your fat loss journey later, but start doing this now as you start to segue, and then it's just a matter of reducing calories to, to meet your metabolic rate and expenditure on a day-to-day basis.

[00:25:59] And [00:26:00] it's being slightly under, uh, you know, uh, under the cow calories you need, right? And then the weight will start coming off. We're going to take a break, stay tuned. You are, I'm watching superhuman radio. We'll be right back.

[00:26:17] were you listening during the commercial break? Did you hear the secret word? All you have to do is email it to on This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and you are entered to win a free box of the new cake style, tasty pastries. Don't miss out. We're talking today with Dr. Nicholas Webster. We're talking about this.

[00:26:38] This is fascinating. You know, I do a lot of shows about science. And most of it leaves many of us feeling like, Oh, wow. You know, this will be nice someday when I can take advantage of it. But this is what you're, what you're exposing here is a, is something that every woman can start doing tomorrow. And we're going to discuss.

[00:27:00] [00:27:00] How to structure a time restricted feeding intervals in a second, but I love shows like this because it gives you real world approaches and tactics to actually do things without having to buy anything. So I have to applaud you. This is, this is fantastic work and I can't wait to see what you come out with next.

[00:27:19] So. We know from Dr. Dominic D'Agostino and from Dr. Thomas Seyfried that, um, the ketogenic diet, which turns on ketone bodies, uh, halts metastasis, and in a variety of cancers, including brain tumors, which the oncology segment really doesn't have a lot of success with brain tumors without, you know, opening up your brain.

[00:27:44] And exculpating the tumor. Um, with that being said, Do you, do you think the fact that the time restricted feeding stimulates over time, a person to ability to create ketone bodies? Do you think that [00:28:00] that had any role in, uh, in, in the, the success of, of, uh, the outcome?

[00:28:07] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:28:07] Well, I'm not sure, sure. That it's actually the ketone bodies that are doing it.

[00:28:11] Um, you know, we looked at ketone bodies and you know, when the mice are not eating for that 16 hour period, you start to see sort of an increase in, in beta-hydroxybutyrate. Um, Typically as you get towards the end of it, after about 12 hours in that 12, 16 hour period, that's when it really starts to go off.

[00:28:27] As soon as they eat boom, the ketone bodies go back down to normal and they can cause comes up. So, you know, we always look at the glucose to ketone ratio. So, you know, we, we thought that might be the case. And we actually looked to see whether, um, Sorry, the cancer cells could use, keep doing body's energy source, you know, cause the reason we make them under these stress conditions is that the brain and other tissues can use ketone bodies instead of glucose.

[00:28:53] And so it provides an extra energy. So interestingly, the tumor cells cannot survive on ketone bodies, right. Have to have. [00:29:00] Right. And so, so it could be that, you know, because you reducing the glucose and you're providing more ketone bodies that has less nutrients for the tumor cells. So maybe they don't grow as fast.

[00:29:11] That's a possibility. Um, but you know, the, the, the, the ketogenic diets. Um, they have had some success in, you know, these two memorials, um, uh, the Volta Valter Longo at SC has done a lot of this studies and he had a nice paper recently using his fasting mimicking diet, which is basically a ketogenic plan, uh, and shown that actually it, it synergizes with, um, chemotherapy, but the chemotherapy is much more efficient when people are on the stock.

[00:29:45] So it does work, you know, Those diets though that like any diet, whether it's. Atkins, ketogenic, whatever diet you can name, people will do it during a study when they're on it. But it's really hard for people to keep it [00:30:00] up often. Right? So, so yes, these things work. Uh, you can use caloric restriction, you can use the different diets to have beneficial effects, but the problem is the long-term adherence.

[00:30:11] Is not great. People tend to stop doing it after a while. So that's why we think that this time eating might be better because you're not, you're not forcing yourself to eat something you wouldn't want to eat. Anyway, you know, you're eating your regular diet. You're just limiting when you're doing it.

[00:30:29] Yeah, no, I agree. There was a study from, um, such in ponder and Pam town where they were doing this. Um, so prediabetics, they wanted to look at the effect of the time-restricted eating prediabetics and they did this study, which was, you know, my months or 12 months or whatever it was. And then they had a follow-up, you know, a year later and they went back and they asked how many of the participants had continued to do it on their own.

[00:30:55] Even when they weren't in the study, when the study was done and a large number of the [00:31:00] participants that continued with the time to eating, even though they were no longer required to do it because they found it was enjoyable, they liked it. They felt better. They had better sleep patterns. Uh, they felt healthier.

[00:31:12] They have more energy. And so they continue to do that, even though they didn't have to. And so they were still eating, you know, whatever they normally eat, it was just restricting wet. And so we think this might be easier to maintain long time. Yeah. Which when you're, when you're looking at cancer risk, you're not looking at something that's going to happen two months down the road, you'll hear something that might happen five, 10, 15 years down the road.

[00:31:38] So this is a lifestyle change. This is not a short term diet. I, if I can, if you want to, if you're looking for weight loss and I got this time, eating is not for you, right? This is not what we're talking about. We're not talking about weight loss. We're talking about a lifestyle change. That's going to be beneficial over a long period and to reduce your risk of a number of [00:32:00] cancers.

[00:32:01] Carl Lanore: [00:32:01] So time restricted feeding has been shown to turn on some metabolic machinery that. Is, uh, anti-aging if you will, right. We know sirtuins go up. We also know. That autophagy, uh, has a stronger effect on reading the body of certain metabolic debris. And, uh, there's even evidence that the new, not, not, not necessarily really new, but new, uh, in many of the anti-aging communities discussions about senescent cells that time restricted feeding has the ability by ramping up.

[00:32:45] The metabolic garbage disposal system to actually eradicate, uh, these senescent cells, which have been tied to a pro-inflammatory, uh, conditions as well as, you know, um, [00:33:00] The way I understood it is that the reverse transcriptase type viruses like COVID and SARS actually use senescent cells as their factories.

[00:33:10] And that's why people who are on anti-rejection medications like Sera, Lemus, and rap. And, uh, even when there was, there was a fascinating discussion about the guy and his wife that were on the boat that no one could get off of during the beginning of the COVID breakout. And he barely had symptoms. And they had to keep his wife on the boat.

[00:33:30] And we found out that he was a kidney transplant recipient, and he was taking Sarah Lima's high, fairly high doses daily, and it protected him against even getting, uh, the virus. So, and that's a long way around this question. When you look at these rodents in the study, did you look at any of these markers?

[00:33:48] Did you look at. Yeah. Uh, senescent cell, uh, accumulation and eradication and tissue. Did that play a role because we know senescent cells, uh, damaged cells, and there is some theory that they [00:34:00] could become tumor cells easier than, than they're, uh, quiescent or healthy, uh, uh, compadres, any indication that senescent cells are playing a role in the effect you saw.

[00:34:14] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:34:14] What we, we didn't look at senescent markers themselves. We looked at Apple tonic markets, which is, you know, another, so programmed cell death. And that was very much affected by the time restricted feeding. The apoptosis went way down. Um, there's an interesting link. You know, you were talking about rapamycin.

[00:34:31] Um, you know, that's a, uh, it inhibits the M talk pathway, right. And that's a nutrient sensitive pathway. So, um, you know, one of the questions is how does insulin and nutrients, um, synchronized. And it could be the, when you, when you. When you all the signaling goes down, the insulin goes down, the nutrient signaling goes down, and then when you eat, you then signal and you got an insulin increase.

[00:34:59] Then [00:35:00] you also get stimulation of this nutrition pathway through inputs. So the, the fasting inhibits is MTL Parkway, which will be exactly the same thing that rapamycin, right. Right. So what you're essentially doing is by fostering your damping down the signaling and the signaling has an impact.

[00:35:23] sorry. That's okay. Um, um, so it is interesting that there's, if you think about senescence cells, um, There's a protein that's involved in that senescence, um, that we've also studied on a different project. And this protein is actually very sensitive to obesity and fatty acids and insulin, and it will cause this protein to get degraded.

[00:35:52] And so there is a link between, you know, your nutritional status and insulin and. Some of these proteins [00:36:00] are involved in cellular senescence.

[00:36:01] Carl Lanore: [00:36:01] Could you say you

[00:36:04] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:36:04] strong

[00:36:04] Carl Lanore: [00:36:04] impact that too? What's the name of that protein, please? It's

[00:36:08] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:36:08] it's, it's an RNA splicing factor. We work on that. So it's a little, that's probably a little bit sort of left field for most people.

[00:36:16] Cause they

[00:36:17] Mike Hazel: [00:36:17] don't.

[00:36:17] Carl Lanore: [00:36:17] No, no, not my aunt, not my audience. This is intelligent audience. You'll find on any podcast. I promise you, except maybe aside from Dr. T his podcast, I don't want to insult anybody. Um, Yeah, cause this is fascinating. You know, the other thing I want to make sure it's so people hear, Oh, turning em tore off as good.

[00:36:38] Uh, but M Tor is one of those things that, uh, that should be high when appropriate and low when, when appropriate. And so the idea of just completely suppressing tour, uh, and trying to live forever is a mistake. In fact, I haven't read this study, but a study was just sent to me, linking, uh, Metformin use [00:37:00] with.

[00:37:00] The, uh, uh, uh, with breast cancer. I haven't read this study yet, but, and I I'm, I'm not a fan of turning M tore off and crushing it. M Tor is responsible for memory formation. Uh, when you, when you re, when you, when you form a memory, these are proteins. And they're being stored and made and full folded. And if you don't have em tour, then you can't make, you can't make memories and you can't retrieve them.

[00:37:27] In fact, there's an M tour. There was a study done on how to get people who, uh, suffered from, uh, trauma, uh, uh, like, like, uh, someone in, in the war, uh, in a war. That's suffered from trauma, how to get them to forget those memories. And they use the very powerful M tour blocker that was infused. And it was so effective that, so what they did was they gave them the input.

[00:37:54] Have you heard about this study? They gave him the MTR blocker. Then they asked him to recall the events that [00:38:00] were troubling them and literally. Half hour later, they couldn't recall it because when you pull that memory out and read it, then you need M Tor to fold it back up and put it away again. And so it doesn't get put away.

[00:38:15] So you lose the memory. The only reason why they can't use it is because if you go home and you see your wife a half hour later, you won't remember she's your wife. I mean, it's that powerful? So the idea of just suppressing inventory, it completely is, is, is not a good idea at all. Well, you're

[00:38:31] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:38:31] right. That we need these things at sometimes, and we need to switch them off at other times then.

[00:38:36] And any drugs that simply suppresses something a hundred percent of the time is not going to be good in the long run. Um, you need influence signaling. You need mTOR signaling at the appropriate time and it needs to be switched off at other points. Yeah. So, so yeah, so I mean, that's, that's a very important,

[00:38:52] Carl Lanore: [00:38:52] I want to take our last commercial break for this interview.

[00:38:54] When we come back, I want to kind of talk about the, uh, the templates of time restricted feeding [00:39:00] that humans use and, uh, and how some of the audience can take advantage of it. Stay tuned. We'll be right back with more superhuman radio.

[00:39:10] We're having some difficulty, uh, just stand by please. The show will

[00:39:14] Mike Hazel: [00:39:14] begin again.

[00:39:19] Carl Lanore: [00:39:19] Welcome back to superhuman radio. We are talking today with Dr. Nicholas Webster, about how time restricted feeding affects breast cancer. So if people want to take advantage. Of time restricted feeding. How and how has it done appropriately? Uh, do you think for, let's say women out there who say, Oh, I'm going to give this a try.

[00:39:40] I want to start tomorrow. What do you think?

[00:39:44] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:39:44] Well, ideally you want to have a period of 14 to 16 hours. Overnight when, you know, you don't eat anything, no calories. So, you know, when exactly you started and, and did some flexible, um, [00:40:00] constantly I try and, you know, have my last minute meal by 6:00 PM. And then I try not to eat until 10 in the morning.

[00:40:07] And that gives me 16 hours. That's kind of what I shoot for. I mean, I don't often do it quite that long. Um, another important thing is you, you want to have your last meal probably four hours before you go to bed, right? Um, because you want your last meal to be digested. You don't want to be sleeping while you still got a full stomach and that's actually, you have got a lot of, um, deniable epigenesis in the liver and that's quite detrimental.

[00:40:33] So it's better to have an earlier meal. Yeah, let it digest and then go to bed. But, but that's kinda, what I shoot for is, is sort of like a six to 10. Period. And, you know, I had a lot of colleagues and people sort of ask me what to do because you know, they know our results and so they will trying it. And that's generally what people are trying to do.

[00:40:52] I said, the hardest thing for me was giving out my early morning, a cup of tea or coffee. That was what I liked, but now I just have black and [00:41:00] no cream, no sugar.

[00:41:00] Carl Lanore: [00:41:00] And that's okay. So Dr. Dale Bredesen has been on the show a couple of times. You're familiar with him. He's been working with Alzheimer's disease out there in California and, uh, He calls for three to four hour window between the last meal and bedtime, because it actually helps the brain clean up a lot of the metabolic debris through, through autophagy as well.

[00:41:22] And it can help people with Alzheimer's disease. It's fascinating to me that I would call this a more ancestral feeding style. You know, we didn't have refrigerators, you know, we spent more time being. Who we were, then we are who we are today and our body. And everyone agrees that most of the diseases today are diseases of modernity.

[00:41:45] And so if you look at how the, uh, our ancestors probably ate before they, we had before 40,000 years ago, when we started to monocrop, you know, raised, uh, crops [00:42:00] and even animal husbandry, um, we didn't have a refrigerator to go to first thing in the morning to grab food. And, uh, maybe we had some berries and nuts left over from the day before, but our first meal in the morning was probably fairly minimal.

[00:42:13] Um, and I, and I do believe that that's what they did. They stored certain things that they could eat in the morning. And then they got on their way and they walked and they worked and forge and hunted and gathered and all that sort of stuff to get the food. Uh, when you look at that, and then you think about, um, day and night, You know, our ancestors didn't want to be out at night when they could actually become food.

[00:42:37] So chances of all, once, once, once the sun was going down, you, you got close to camp, you got in your cave or your hut or whatever it was that you were living in. And you didn't really move around too far past the fire that you had going. Cause you could see. And when you look at that, that is how we evolve to eat.

[00:42:57] And now we have a refrigerator and we have delivery service and we have [00:43:00] Papa John's delivered pizzas all the time at night, and we've just got this all whacked out. So really all you're really saying in this is we should go back to eating the way we evolve to eat instead of this modern way. Would you agree with that comment?

[00:43:14] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:43:14] Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, we were Hunter gatherers. Um, there was meat occasionally, but a lot of it was roots and berries and plants. And that you're right. I mean, it was whatever you could eat during the day, uh, come nightfall. You didn't want to be out there because you were going to be praised for some other practices.

[00:43:31] So, um, I think that is the way we developed. And, uh, and, and that's why our body can kind of handle that.

[00:43:38] Carl Lanore: [00:43:38] Right. Uh, this is fascinating. We will post the link to the paper on the website with today's show posting. I tend to do, I'm doing, uh, I'm doing my time, restricted feeding a different way. Now I believe that that first morning meal, um, goes hand in hand with daylight.

[00:43:58] To tell the body it's [00:44:00] daytime, uh, to kind of synchronize all of the different clocks in the systems, Supercab, cosmetic nuclei, and all of the organ clocks. So I, I eat my first meal now, first thing in the morning, I do cardio, uh, 40 minutes. I have my first meal earlier, instead of staying fast until I used to stay fast until after the show today, I'm fasting.

[00:44:21] Today's part of a three-day fast. I just thought it. So I'm not eating anything for the next three, three days, but, uh, generally I would fast until after the show. And that would be my first meal and I'd eat up to six o'clock and then I would stop, but I'm doing something different because I really believe that feeding is one of the cues that helps synchronize the clock.

[00:44:38] So now I'm having my first meal, but I'm done at five o'clock. I'm done eating at five o'clock. So I end up with my 14 to 16 hour fast, but I have my first meal earlier in the morning. You think there's anything inappropriate with that or that that may not work as good as the th th the research you did.

[00:44:59] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:44:59] No, [00:45:00] I think that's fine. Um, you know, if you, if you did see your eating completely out of phase with what we're talking about. So if you are, you know, night shift worker, and so you're eating at night and sleeping during the day. And so if you are 180 degrees out of phase, then that's not as good. I mean, that's been shown in animal studies, but if you were a couple of hours off at either, I ended up the window, that's not gonna make much difference.

[00:45:22] No, I think that's all fine. I mean, the important thing is to, is to do the 14 to 16 hour fast.

[00:45:29] Carl Lanore: [00:45:29] So I want to close this interview by saying that if you are a woman and you are suspicious, that breast cancer runs in your family, you can do something tomorrow that has nothing to do with you having to lose weight.

[00:45:43] And that is start to eat. It's eight, eight, eight hours a day. That's basically what the template is. You can shift that any way you want, as long as you're not eating for 16 hours a day, and it's easier to [00:46:00] sleep eight hours, eight hours of that 16 hours. So if you time it right. You have your last meal by, let's say 6:00 PM.

[00:46:08] And you don't have your first meal till the next day. I think it's 10 is 16 hours. I want to say, um, 10, 10 o'clock the next day. And you start eating that way and you'll protect yourself against breast cancer. It looks like. So this is a wonderful, wonderful study. I love it. Actionable steps. I love actionable steps.

[00:46:24] I want to thank you so much for being here today.

[00:46:27] Dr. Nicholas Webster, Ph.D. M.A: [00:46:27] Yeah, well, it's been a

[00:46:28] Mike Hazel: [00:46:28] pleasure.

[00:46:29] Carl Lanore: [00:46:29] I really enjoyed it. Care, take care. We're going to take one quick commercial break. And when we come back, we're going to be joined by my friend, Mike Hazel. Mike is an interesting guy. He's a, he is fascinated with diet and its effect on his both health and energy.

[00:46:45] Uh, and he's learned some things he's been vegan. Uh, he's done Quito and he's done carnivores and we're going to learn, this is like an N equals one type study. So stay tuned. You're watching and listening to superhuman radio. We'll be right [00:47:00] back. Hey, welcome back to superhuman radio. My friend, Mike Hazel.

[00:47:07] How are you doing Mike? I can't hear you. Do you have your mute? Your thing muted?

[00:47:15] No, it's kind of low. Let me see if I can turn you up. Hold on. See if that works any better? No, it sounds like you're muted. Let's see. Now, hold on talk now and just barely hear your voice. It's almost you, you must have a volume control on your yeah. I

[00:47:35] barely hear you.

[00:47:41] Nothing but technical difficulties today. So this is par for the course. Don't worry about it. Maybe just take the, I take the headphones off and speak into the, directly into the phone. Can't hear you. Isn't this wonderful. Hold on, hold on. I see. What's wrong. My fault. How about, how about now? My [00:48:00] fault. I'm a schmuck, you know what?

[00:48:02] Okay. You know what? We had, we, we lost internet and it totally threw me and I'm still thrown to be honest with you. That's okay. How are you doing Mike?

[00:48:10] Mike Hazel: [00:48:10] I'm doing well, sir, it's a privilege to be

[00:48:12] Carl Lanore: [00:48:12] here. Yes. Yes. Thank you very much for saying that. So Mike castle is a friend of mine and we talk diet often.

[00:48:18] And, um, and, and when I told him the other day, I was thinking, man, I got to have Mike on the show because we've had people promote different types of diets on the show. Most of them have pretty selfish reasons. They're promoting a product, uh, that promote promoting, uh, a supplement or. But Mike is actually one of us.

[00:48:38] He's a soup. Uh, how old are you now? Mike? 64. Okay. So Mike is 64 years old, so he's just like me. We want to live as long as we can. We want to be as strong as we can be and we want, we don't want to succumb to disease. So start with the beginning. When did you first become fascinated with diet Mike?

[00:49:02] [00:49:00] Mike Hazel: [00:49:02] Well, um, briefly, I guess it would probably start back in college.

[00:49:06] There was a book, uh, that, uh, I heard about titled sugar blues by William Duffy. Um, you, you may be familiar with it. And then another book diet for a small planet by Francis Morella PEI. And she. Originated the idea of a protein complementarity, which fascinated me at the time where, whereas, um, like red beans and rice together, if the, they would offset the amino acids lacking in one by combining with the other.

[00:49:39] Um, so that's kinda where it started. Um, I didn't really go all in back then, but I found it interesting and, um, Then probably in my thirties, uh, is when I, um, kind of came back around to it with, uh, with a vegetarian diet and, um, [00:50:00] then you know, the old saying in, for a penny in, for a pound. So I thought, well, you know, I'm learning all this about vegetarian diet.

[00:50:07] Let's go vegan and see how that works. So that, that was in my, probably mid thirties at that time.

[00:50:14] Carl Lanore: [00:50:14] Okay. Let's so let's stay, let's stay in that period for a second. Okay. So the vegetarian diet, were you a lacto, OVO or pescetarian? Did you allow yourself fish or eggs or, or, or yogurt and, and lots of plants based,

[00:50:31] Mike Hazel: [00:50:31] uh, S eggs?

[00:50:32] Yes. Uh, I had, um, um, kinda gotten away from dairy products at that time because it helped with my sinus trouble. So, um, So I wasn't, uh, maybe a little bit of fish, but, but, uh, red meat, I was staying away from, uh, due to what I'd read in another book I'd picked up around that time. Which one? Which one? Just curious.

[00:50:58] I believe it was titled may all be [00:51:00] fed and it was by John Robbins and it had among other things. Um, I mean his, his issue with red meat was, uh, Nutritional and ethical both. Uh, so, you know, he got into all the issues with, um, the ethics of, uh, of, uh, having, uh, uh, making veal, um, also cited studies about how red meat causes excess, um, uric acid.

[00:51:30] And kidney trouble, which in recent years, I've found has been largely debunked. But at any rate that is, that's kind of how that all got stopped. When, when,

[00:51:40] Carl Lanore: [00:51:40] when, when people talk to me about being an ethical, um, uh, an ethical vegan, um, they, they, they shape things to suit their argument. I find. And, and so th th th we're the only animal on the planet that.

[00:51:58] Thanks. It's [00:52:00] it's, it's, it's a bad idea to eat other animals. You know what I mean? Well, I mean of the omnivores, right? You know, lions don't go, man, I feel bad for those Gazelles. I'm going to start eating tree bark. No, nobody. We're the only ones. And you know why that is. I understand why it is because we put way too much thought into death.

[00:52:20] And what I mean by thought into death is we put way too much. Thought into the idea that death is scary and painful and it's anything but that it's, if you're lucky enough and it's Swift, you don't know anything even happened. If you're old and you're dying in a hospital and you're miserable, you're hoping for death.

[00:52:40] You ask anybody, go into anybody in a nursing home, say, Oh, aren't you afraid to death? No, I just want to get this over with I'm miserable, but. Right. We put way too much. We put way too much emphasis on sorrow and death is an event like taking a dump. It's like everything else. Boom. It's gone. So that's [00:53:00] why people feel sorry.

[00:53:01] Um, because they, they think that animals think the way we do. Oh, that animal it, you know, it's, it's doesn't want to die. Sure. Nothing, no one, uh, an amoeba doesn't want to die. Everything is driven not to die, but it's silly to use ethics. As a reason to eat or not eat certain foods. My humble opinion. Go ahead.

[00:53:21] I'm sorry.

[00:53:22] Mike Hazel: [00:53:22] Yes, no, I agree. They, you know, they, uh, uh, people want to moralize about, about, uh, about that. Uh, but they don't want to talk about the, um, um, The rabbits, the mice, all the other animals that die from big model crop operations when they're kale. Right. Exactly. Corn and soybeans. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:53:44] Carl Lanore: [00:53:44] Yeah.

[00:53:45] So, so when you, when you went vegan, Mike, when you went vegan, um, yes. Did you, did you feel better in the beginning? Did you go, wow. I feel amazing.

[00:53:59] Mike Hazel: [00:53:59] I did. [00:54:00] I, I felt that it improved my health. And I would say in retrospect, that was because of getting off of a lot of processed foods. Right. So, what I did not do was stick with it a long time.

[00:54:15] Why not people, the people I follow and listened to today will tell you that that, uh, that's what you can expect to have happened. Uh, but eventually it catches up with you, you know, like your liver can store B12 for a very long time, but eventually you're going to run out and, um, Uh, so vegan diet will catch up with you after a year or two years, whatever.

[00:54:37] And I stayed on it for about a year and really, I, I think I got away from it just because it was just too big of a pain in the neck to stick to it. Right. And, uh, uh, so I just kind of went back to standard American diet, uh, after that, you know, tried not tried to stay away from the junk food of course, but right.

[00:54:55] No, that was life kind of went in different directions and, and, um, [00:55:00] I didn't. Uh, so I went back to eating red meat and seafood and chicken and all those kinds of things.

[00:55:06] Carl Lanore: [00:55:06] How'd you feel when you went back to it?

[00:55:09] Mike Hazel: [00:55:09] Um, I didn't really notice, um, that anything really went downhill because like I said, at the time, um, I found that staying off the dairy products, um, helped with my sinus issues, which had been at that time.

[00:55:26] It'd been a lifelong struggle.

[00:55:29] Carl Lanore: [00:55:29] Okay. So, so, so now you're back on the standard American diet. How's your body weight from vegan, from vegetarian to vegan, and then back to, uh, sad. How's your body weight?

[00:55:42] Mike Hazel: [00:55:42] Uh, not an appreciable change. I've always been pretty Finn and, um, you know, five foot, 10, 140 pounds when I was younger and kind of just kind of stayed around that area.

[00:55:54] And so I didn't really generally put on any more weight at that time in my thirties and forties. And, [00:56:00] and it did start to creep up

[00:56:01] Carl Lanore: [00:56:01] later. So then your next, um, let's say, uh, dietary excursion was the ketogenic diet. Why did you get on the ketogenic diet?

[00:56:12] Mike Hazel: [00:56:12] Well, that started about a little over a year and a half ago, and I probably will give most of the credit to a friend of mine.

[00:56:22] Carl Lanore: [00:56:22] You. I don't know if you can hear me, Mike, but you just dropped out. You dropped out who, what's the friend of yours name?

[00:56:31] Mike Hazel: [00:56:31] Uh, his name is Mike also. He's, uh, uh, owns an auto repair business and he's my mechanic and, and a good friend of mine. So he just mentioned one day that, uh, uh, he had, uh, started getting off.

[00:56:47] The, um, or had started somewhat of a ketogenic diet, he'd been told he was diabetic or nearly so. And, um, um, he finally badgered me long enough that I thought maybe I'd better try this myself. So I started to do the [00:57:00] research and a lot of what I was seeing and reading was I found very compelling. Well, uh, one of the reasons that, uh, uh, I was convinced was that, um, of course I was getting older.

[00:57:14] I was putting on some weight and I was getting a little bit of a gut. Um, so you know, my 140, 145 was, was creeping up on one 80. And, um, you know, I'm starting to get issues that I just assumed were associated with old age, like aches and pains and, and weight gain, and try to go to the gym to work it off and those kinds of things.

[00:57:35] So, so I do the research and I finally decided to step across the line. And, um, first thing is my allergies, my sinus and allergy trouble didn't get better. It practically disappeared. And in fairly short order so that, um, and of course there were a handful of people. I was, I was [00:58:00] following of course, listening to your podcast and some other people like William Davis, for example, or bill Davis,

[00:58:05] Carl Lanore: [00:58:05] wheat belly.

[00:58:07] And

[00:58:07] Mike Hazel: [00:58:07] so, uh, I I'm, I'm skeptical, but, uh, he, everything on his list starts to come true. I get off the wheat and the sugar and the vegetable oils. And the next thing, you know, I'm not getting tired, I'm not getting hungry. Uh, my energy level stays steady all day. Mental clarity improves cravings, go away.

[00:58:30] Weight starts disappearing, even though I'm too busy to make time to go to the gym, which reminds me of another favorite saying of one of these guys as they. You don't lose weight to get healthy, you get healthy and then you lose weight.

[00:58:44] Carl Lanore: [00:58:44] Right? Right. So, no, but it also has to be said that your, your, your job, you're a very active person.

[00:58:51] You're moving around all day long, all day long. I'm

[00:58:54] Mike Hazel: [00:58:54] active,

[00:58:55] Carl Lanore: [00:58:55] I'm outdoors. Have you ever won or do you wear a, uh, [00:59:00] pet tracker or any type of a step tracker? I do.

[00:59:03] Mike Hazel: [00:59:03] I usually I'm usually around 10,000 steps a day. Right. Okay. If I'm working and, um, um, so, so yes. Okay. Uh, so yes, that's true. Uh, you know, they'll no question that, uh, uh, that diet is key, but, but, um, Yeah.

[00:59:20] Being outdoors, vitamin D from the sun, stress levels, good sleep. All those things make a big difference too. Right. So, uh, but you know, joint pain goes away and which kind of leads into what I think is behind a lot of this stuff is inflammation. Oh. And I forgot, I got, I got to put away the C-PAP

[00:59:41] Carl Lanore: [00:59:41] that's where I was going.

[00:59:42] So you got, you had sleep apnea and you just, it went away when you started the ketogenic diet.

[00:59:49] Mike Hazel: [00:59:49] Did I, I didn't see the point. Um, you know, I, I didn't have any issues without the C-PAP machine and, um, you know, not [01:00:00] to, not to veer off course too much, but you know, every, I think a C-PAP machines like a drug, everything has a side effect.

[01:00:07] And I remember going to an ophthalmologist once and he, he said, um, uh, I'm going to check you for glaucoma. You don't use a C-PAP machine. Do you. Well, no, that's an interesting question.

[01:00:19] Carl Lanore: [01:00:19] Right? What did you, what did he say about that? Did he say that when you use C-PAP you get glaucoma,

[01:00:24] Mike Hazel: [01:00:24] it can, it can elevate, uh, pressure in your eye behind your eye.

[01:00:30] Sure.

[01:00:30] Carl Lanore: [01:00:30] Makes sense. Because that pressure it's pressurizing the sinuses, which are right behind the eye. Exactly. Yeah.

[01:00:38] Mike Hazel: [01:00:38] So, so yes. So I don't, uh, don't don't use the machine anymore. Don't miss it.

[01:00:45] Carl Lanore: [01:00:45] Okay. So how long did you do keto for well,

[01:00:50] Mike Hazel: [01:00:50] um, I think in a sense, to an extent I'm still doing it, you might say, but when you, when you do the [01:01:00] studying about and read up and listen to people about keto one good way to describe it as it's an elimination diet, you're getting things out of your diet and finding out how it affects your health.

[01:01:12] One way or another,

[01:01:12] Carl Lanore: [01:01:12] right? Cause these are, these are extreme elimination diets,

[01:01:17] Mike Hazel: [01:01:17] right? So you take that. If you continue to take that one step further, well get rid of all plant products and see what happens or, you know, in the case of, um, of, uh, carnivores, right. Carnivore,

[01:01:32] Carl Lanore: [01:01:32] which is where you are now, right.

[01:01:34] You're now you consider yourself carnival, right?

[01:01:36] Mike Hazel: [01:01:36] I do not as strict carnivore. Um, and because Ali blueberries, uh, pretty regularly, you know, some fruits maybe as you can eat something like that once in a while, but for the most part, yes, carnivores. So, you know, breakfast is usually the same eggs and bacon and coffee.

[01:01:55] And then, uh, usually red meat, some, some seafood things like [01:02:00] that for dinner. And again, maybe. Maybe

[01:02:03] Carl Lanore: [01:02:03] something else. Uh, so you only, you only eat, you only eat a couple, three times a day, right? Or wait two meals a day. Okay. So, so that, that, that answers, uh, Niamh McAvoy's question. Did you pair these with intermittent fasting or time restricted feeding?

[01:02:18] It sounds like if you're only eating two meals a day, you are also practicing time restricted.

[01:02:24] Mike Hazel: [01:02:24] Yes. I'm trying to do that because of work. I have to eat breakfast around seven o'clock and then try to have dinner around five.

[01:02:31] Carl Lanore: [01:02:31] Yeah. So you're really hitting time. Restricted feeding. That's right. Beautiful.

[01:02:35] Mike Hazel: [01:02:35] So, yes, but you know, it's like, like William Davis said, you don't get hungry and you don't get tired.

[01:02:41] Your energy level just stays the same all day. I don't think about food until maybe four o'clock in the afternoon. Those even crossed my mind. Right.

[01:02:50] Carl Lanore: [01:02:50] Okay. So what have you noticed when you transitioned a more traditional high, fat ketogenic diet to a more high protein, uh, [01:03:00] carnivore diet? You notice anything, any changes?

[01:03:05] No, I don't.

[01:03:07] Mike Hazel: [01:03:07] I can't really say that, that, uh, I noticed a change in adult really. Um, think about the protein, the fat. Ratio. Um, I mean, I'm not, I'm not aiming for a high protein diet,

[01:03:25] Carl Lanore: [01:03:25] so yeah, a, not a two meals a day, unless you're, unless you like Sean Baker and the two meals you have a day, or like a pound a day, you have a stake,

[01:03:33] Mike Hazel: [01:03:33] you know?

[01:03:33] Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's some guys that, you know, they just eat beef and that's it. And he's one of them, but no, I mean, I, you know, fatty seafood, um, W is, um, uh, is on the table, uh, bacon in the morning. So, um, you know, w where, if you're, if you're a low carb, you've, you've converted your, hopefully converted your body to burning [01:04:00] fat as fuel, as opposed to opposed to burning sugars fuel.

[01:04:03] So I wouldn't want to, um, I mean, I don't think it's wise to try to try to limit your fat intake.

[01:04:10] Carl Lanore: [01:04:10] I agree. So what are you, what's your body weight now? Uh, it's back,

[01:04:16] Mike Hazel: [01:04:16] uh, just under one 50. Yeah.

[01:04:18] Carl Lanore: [01:04:18] And yeah, I got to believe that, uh, you you're stronger now than you were before, too. I mean, especially because you are eating a protein makes up a lot of the food that you eat and obviously fat, any, any changes in body strength.

[01:04:33] Mike Hazel: [01:04:33] Uh, it hasn't diminished. I can promise you that. I haven't, um, uh, I don't think I've lost any muscle mass, um, and, um, But you're you're, you know, you're they say your body composition changes and I would agree with that. Um, even your skin changes,

[01:04:52] Carl Lanore: [01:04:52] so your skin quality got better. You feel it did? Yes, it did.

[01:04:56] Uh, have you been to the doctors, uh, over [01:05:00] the, over this period of time of transitioning from, you know, vegan, vegetarian, or vegetarian vegan keto, and now a more carnivore style of keto? Um, what, what have you noticed in some of your blood work? Anything?

[01:05:14] Mike Hazel: [01:05:14] Uh, yes, it's been right at a year since I had any blood work done.

[01:05:19] And, um, the only thing that went up was the LDL. Which again, uh, there's uh, there's pretty much no consensus at all about LDL, uh, elevated LDL being correlated with heart disease, right? So I'm not the least bit concerned that the LDL is a little bit high. HDL was fine. The VLDL was down triglycerides drop black rock.

[01:05:45] Sure.

[01:05:46] Carl Lanore: [01:05:46] Because triglycerides are caused by carbohydrates people. When, when your triglycerides are high, your doctor tells you, Oh, you got to cut out meat and cheese. And your triglycerides just keep going up because as you cut out meat and cheese, what are you more of eat more starchy foods [01:06:00] and carbohydrates.

[01:06:01] And then the next time your doc says, man, your triglycerides are still going up. We're going to have to put you on a statin drug. It's almost like they create the problem by telling you to stop eating meat and cheese.

[01:06:12] Mike Hazel: [01:06:12] Yes. And my doctor actually did that. Um, you know, she's a Dio and I was, uh, I mean, she, uh, my old doctor retired.

[01:06:21] So I've been seeing this, this part, this doctor for a couple of years. And because she a deal I'm thinking, well, you know, maybe she's on board with, um, you know, a lot of this new information, but I was wrong. So, you know, I get a call back from her office and they say, well, you know, this number shows you, where do you hydrated a little bit?

[01:06:39] And, um, your LDL was high. So you need to make sure you drink this much water every day and you really need to cut back on the red meat. So I said, thank you and hung up the phone because red meets with what a dramatically changed my health in the first place. You know, it's like, I joke with people all the time.

[01:06:58] I wasn't as healthy when I was on the track [01:07:00] team in high school. Really? It just boggles my mind to think you're, you can be 64 years old and say to yourself, you know, there's nothing that I can't do because there's nothing that my health will prevent me from doing anything I want to do. The only thing that stops me is common sense.

[01:07:21] Carl Lanore: [01:07:21] So, so, um, how about socializing? Does it restrict you from being able to socialize or can you always find something to eat when you go to work?

[01:07:29] Mike Hazel: [01:07:29] Uh, pretty much, uh, you know, I'm not as good at restaurant Gore, I would say as I used to be, but a barbecue restaurant is always. A good place to

[01:07:38] Carl Lanore: [01:07:38] go. Like those prisons, the Brazilian barbecue places where they just keep feeding you more meat and more sausage all the time, the whole time you're there.

[01:07:46] That would

[01:07:46] Mike Hazel: [01:07:46] be to find that. Yeah. But yeah, brisket, you know, lots of fat with brisket pulled pork. I'm good to go and somebody else can eat the sides. So,

[01:07:56] Carl Lanore: [01:07:56] so yeah. What, what would you tell listeners out there who are, you know, they, [01:08:00] they hop from diet to diet. How long does it take. First of all, once you do a more carnivores style of keto, which is basically low carb, really?

[01:08:11] Yes. And you blend in some time restricted feeding, which we just did a show before this, that shows that time restricted feeding will, uh, protect the woman from getting breast. Yeah, that's right. Think about that. So how long does it take for you to go from average Mike Hazel to superhuman Mike Hazel.

[01:08:33] Mike Hazel: [01:08:33] Less time than I would have thought at the outset. Uh, probably a matter of months. I mean, I, you know, getting off the wheat and the well getting off the three things, uh, the, you know, the refined sugar, the grains and the, and the vegetable oils, um, I noticed a difference with index. So, um, that is that's one thing I would tell people.

[01:08:58] I'd also tell them the cravings will go [01:09:00] away. Uh, might be weeks, um, or longer, but you just hang in there and the cravings will go away. And that once that happens, it just continues to get easier.

[01:09:12] Carl Lanore: [01:09:12] Is coconut oil. Okay. Mike, or even coconut oil, that idea for you? I mean,

[01:09:18] Mike Hazel: [01:09:18] go for me. I don't, I've got some that I use it periodically, but, um, and you know, a lot of people ask, well, what do you cook with olive oil?

[01:09:25] I use coconut oil, avocado oil. Well, you know, those are from fruits and, and in principle are supposed to be okay, but you know, what are the question is what do I cook with you? Because I have bacon and eggs in the morning. So cook the eggs and the bacon grease. Right. And you know, I'm not doing sauteed vegetables at dinner.

[01:09:46] So what, I don't need any cooking oils. Really. I steam the vegetables. If I do eat any, like I said, zucchini, or maybe broccoli or cauliflower. And, uh, and that's that. So. Um, so yeah, I've got, you know, clarified [01:10:00] butter and coconut oil if I want to do, if I need them.

[01:10:04] Carl Lanore: [01:10:04] Right. So that those would be your two go-to butter first and then coconut oil, perhaps if you did have to fry something,

[01:10:10] Mike Hazel: [01:10:10] right.

[01:10:11] Carl Lanore: [01:10:11] Right now you don't, you don't need any sugar and other than blueberries, right. You don't, you don't have any, any cake and he cookies. What about, uh, what about protein bars and stuff like that? Do you ever turn to those? I do not.

[01:10:25] Mike Hazel: [01:10:25] Um, again, because I don't get hungry in the middle of the day, so I don't need it.

[01:10:33] I don't need it. Don't think about it two meals a day. And, um, um, and that's it. And that, that works for me. I know some people, I was listening to somebody recently talking about. Uh, uh, well, you know, the whole, the whole thing about, about cheat meals and keto flexing and that kind of stuff, you know, it's a little foreign to me.

[01:10:56] I just can't, uh, I just can't get [01:11:00] squared with the logic there, because if you've eliminated these foods from your diet, and if you determined that they were causing you problems, then. You know, what is it, why do you call it? Why does this guy say, you know, um, give yourself a treat, uh, you know, what pleasure is there in having one day

[01:11:21] Carl Lanore: [01:11:21] a week?

[01:11:22] Well, it's like, it's like cigarette smoke, right? You, you kick smoking. And then somebody says, well, one day a week, you can have a cigarette. Well, why I just kick smoking? Why do I want to introduce something harmful back into my,

[01:11:33] Mike Hazel: [01:11:33] exactly. And, you know, uh, Rob Siva is a, uh, he's one I listened to he's very atric surgeon and, uh, he considered sugar to be addictive.

[01:11:42] And, um, he says the same thing. You know, what would you tell an alcoholic to have a glass of wine just on Sundays? Yeah, no, no, you're right. You know, I don't, you know, people talked about, and this is, this is probably one advantage I have is that, uh, [01:12:00] you know, the eat to live and live, to eat dichotomy. So I've never been a person that lives to eat, but some people it's to get a great deal of pleasure from food.

[01:12:11] And I say, food is fuel. And that's all it is. There are plenty of other ways in life to find pleasure without, you know, going out and having a pizza and then paying the penalty the next day.

[01:12:24] Carl Lanore: [01:12:24] God's honest truth. So if you had a pizza, how do you feel? So I'm going to tell you my experience. Okay. When, when, when, uh, Elisa and I w it was a Christmas or two ago, and we will make an oldest food for Christmas and Elisa said, I haven't had pizza in so long, so we just would like to wild kids, we said, okay, let's order it.

[01:12:48] So we ordered Papa John's pizza. Yeah. And I had two slices of pizza that night and the next morning I woke up and I really felt hung over. I felt like I had been drinking all night long. I was [01:13:00] bleary did I didn't feel good? I was sluggish. What about you? If you ate pizza, what, how would you feel the next day?

[01:13:08] You think. I would

[01:13:09] Mike Hazel: [01:13:09] expect that I'd have the same experience you did. The, the closest thing I can tell you is, uh, I had a, uh, again, God, barbecue carry out the other night. So, uh, my wife got ribs and I ate the sweet potato that she didn't want to make sweet potato after,

[01:13:29] Carl Lanore: [01:13:29] after my meal. And people would say, that's a good, and people would say, that's a good car, but that's a good carb.

[01:13:34] Mike Hazel: [01:13:34] Well, it's probably not a bad car, but there's, it's so many carbs and I'm kind of low. So, you know, if I had something to 60 or 70 carbs, I'm going to know it. And I kinda did. I, you know, I felt, um, I felt sluggish that evening and, um, you know, nothing else I could really pinpoint as, as a symptom, but, you know, I could tell that it eaten something that didn't really [01:14:00] agree with me as well as might have.

[01:14:03] So that was the sweet potato

[01:14:05] Carl Lanore: [01:14:05] Niamh. It says, uh, does, does Mike find he needs any supplements with his diet since you're you're eating, you're not eating kind of a narrow bandwidth of foods you have to supplement with that.

[01:14:18] Mike Hazel: [01:14:18] The only supplement I do is collagen powder in my coffee

[01:14:23] Carl Lanore: [01:14:23] and that's it. We don't get enough college.

[01:14:25] And especially if we're eating a lot of muscle meat. That's that's good.

[01:14:29] Mike Hazel: [01:14:29] Yeah. I've not been able to get over the hump with finding organ meat. Um, just probably just haven't looked hard enough, but, um, uh, I do want to try that at some point, but in the meantime, a lot of smoked oysters and seafood, you know, high in zinc.

[01:14:44] Um, so a lot of eggs. So hopefully that, uh, covering your bases. It gets me in the ballpark. That's right. So AR

[01:14:52] Carl Lanore: [01:14:52] is asking on, uh, on YouTube. What. Does reduce breast cancer risk. You have to listen to the [01:15:00] first hour of the show, but I'll tell you right now, it's time restricted feeding. When, when women who have a high risk of breast cancer, even if they don't lose any body weight, listen to this, even if they remain obese, but they just eat an eight hour window and fast, a 16 hour window that reduces their risk of breast cancer.

[01:15:19] Think about that. Women could start doing this tomorrow. If you have breast cancer in your family. Your mother had breast cancer, or even if you have the BRCA gene, because they showed that even the, uh, hormone dependent cancers, you don't get breast cancer. If you just stick to that time, restricted feeding window.

[01:15:37] And it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, we probably own eight, only eight, eight hours a day because the rest of the time we will hide in our caves.

[01:15:45] Mike Hazel: [01:15:45] All right. Well, and you know, people talk about, uh, the what bad advice it was to graze and snack all day and eat, eat six tiny meals, you know, uh, your body's spending [01:16:00] energy, metabolizing, all that food and your body works on healing and rebuilding itself when you're not eating.

[01:16:07] And when it's not having to digest food. So, um, you know, you give, you give your body the right raw materials and it can heal a lot of things. You know, the testimonials I've read, uh, from some of the people I follow are just mind blowing, you know, knee replacement, surgery, canceled heart valve replacement surgery was canceled, uh, um, just all kinds of things.

[01:16:32] Carl Lanore: [01:16:32] And the fact that doctors don't have an appreciation for the, the linkage between diet and disease. It's really by now, they should be on to this, but they're not. And that's shameful because there's a lot of people out there who, who will continue to be in disease. States, diabetes is one of them, every person out there that has type two diabetes, 80% of them could reverse their diabetes in six months.

[01:16:56] But instead they're going to be on medications for the rest of their lives. That's going [01:17:00] to lead to heart disease. It's going to lead to kidney failure. It's going to lead to, uh, arthritis because we know arthritis isn't from. Mechanical loading it's from inflammation. And when you have a lot of body fat and you have high insulin levels, you end up with a lot of inflammation.

[01:17:16] It's it's really, when you really think about it. It's it's, it's gross negligence. What most doctors do today? Gross negligence. The science is out there. They're just not paying attention. Cause some cute little girl walked in and says, Hey, we just came out with a new drug. Would you give it to your patients?

[01:17:32] Oh, sure. Yeah, I'll do that.

[01:17:35] Mike Hazel: [01:17:35] I had an interesting conversation that I hope is relevant here, uh, with, uh, with a fellow who's retired police officer and, uh, just, just about organizational dynamics and the dynamics of groups. Cause I said to him, you know, Bob, I wouldn't say this to just anybody, but we're friends.

[01:17:53] And the only thing worse than a bad person with a gun is a bad person with a gun and a [01:18:00] badge. And he said, you know, you're right. And he said, but here's the problem. You know, if you, if you go against the grain or go against the current in an organization like that, uh, it's going to cost you. You're going to be on the outside, looking in and a lot of cases and, and it could be, it could be very costly.

[01:18:19] So you see that in any group, you know, unions, uh, police and I'm sure in the healthcare industry too, they've been taught in school that they they've just been trained as. To, to deal with disease management.

[01:18:35] Carl Lanore: [01:18:35] Yeah, of course, pharmaceutical, the pharmaceutical company fund the school. They build wings in labs and they don't have money.

[01:18:43] So, of course they're going to push their drugs. So AR says he got it. Thanks so fast. And yes, we don't like to call a fast thing anymore because people get afraid. Oh, I'm going to have to starve myself. So it's called time restricted feeding. I like to call it a more ancestral feeding template, but right.

[01:19:00] [01:18:59] He eat eight hours a day and you don't eat for 16 hours a day. Um, he said I'm 30. And what do you, two sharp gentlemen. Could, what could you pass on to us? Help wise to two young guys like him? What do you think? I'll let you go first.

[01:19:15] Mike Hazel: [01:19:15] Okay. Well, uh, first you reminded me of something else that, uh, is a great benefit to this, this way of eating because it's not a diet.

[01:19:24] Um, and diets are just conceptually troublesome because. You look at a diet as restriction or punishment of some sort, you're trying to reach a goal. And when you get there, you consider it something you can stop doing now. So the whole idea of a diet is, is, um, it was a little troublesome. Uh, this is just a way of eating and you're not, you're not restricting calories.

[01:19:50] Uh, when you restrict calories, your body tells you that you could tell, it gives you a message that you're hungry. So another great thing about, about this way of eating is [01:20:00] that, you know, I don't know, make it nearly as complicated as some of these guys do with counting macros and this many carbs and all that jazz.

[01:20:09] You just eat until you're full. And if you're eating a carnivore or low carb, you can eat until you're full and you're done, then you won't gain weight. I haven't gained weight in a year and a half. And I, you know, I don't, I don't, uh, um, I don't restrict myself.

[01:20:30] Carl Lanore: [01:20:30] So here's, here's what I'll share with you. Uh, almost 16 years of doing this show.

[01:20:34] I did my first show. On cellular senescence in 2008, I remember him because I was doing my show from my apartment. I was going through a divorce and I interviewed a scientist from Rutgers and they had published the first study that showed that glucose signaling is what causes cellular senescence. When we talk about glucose signaling, we mean sugar.

[01:20:57] When, when, when sugar gets high in your blood, [01:21:00] it actually makes cells age faster. That was the first thing that I learned. So a low carbohydrate, zero sugar diet. And if you're going to have sugar, have it from whole foods. Maybe if, if, if you have some berries have some fruit, but even those have to be done in moderation.

[01:21:17] Number one. So low carb, the low carb diet has been shown to reverse aging of the brain. Think about that. Think about that. Uh, then the other thing I would say that I'm going to give you a tip that no one will tell you, but I guarantee it will pay you in dividends, donate blood twice a year, donate blood twice a year, donate blood twice a year.

[01:21:38] There's actually studies out there that show that people who donate blood regularly live longer, but nobody wants to talk about it because they afraid to talk about it. And you change the oil in your car. Every 3000 miles, hopefully, but you don't change your blood. Your whole life men develop iron overload.

[01:21:58] Women develop iron [01:22:00] overload. After menopause. We, we accumulate metabolic waste in our blood. So if you give a pint of blood twice a year, that's two fresh pints. Your body has to make number one. Number two, when you lose blood pleura, potent. STEM cells are produced in bone marrow and released into the bloodstream STEM cells fix broken stuff.

[01:22:28] You don't have to go get STEM cell injections. If you donate blood twice a year, your body will release the STEM cells that are needed to repair tissue. So those, I mean, other than that, Listen to the show, watch the show. We always talk about this sort of stuff. And do me a favor. If you really do feel like you're learning so much, share this show with other people and listen to the show regularly.

[01:22:53] We always do shows like this every four days a week. I do these shows four days a week. So please share the show with someone. You [01:23:00] know, when you care about Mike, I think we've covered everything. I'm sorry for all the technical difficulty. It was my day, uh, to have tech technical difficulties right before you came on.

[01:23:10] I lost all internet. My guests dropped. So now I got a lot of editing and splicing to do to the audio. But thank you for being here, brother. It's been a real treat. Thank you, Carl. I talk to you later and we'll see everybody tomorrow with more superhuman radio, please tune in, share the show and always patronize the sponsors.

[01:23:28] We'll see you tomorrow. [01:24:00]