[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] Sorry about that. My mic was closed. That doesn't work for me. I like to talk. Welcome back to another episode of super humor radio. Today is April 2nd we are deeper and deeper into the Corona virus. Quarantine and we're doing well. Most of us are doing well at least. And those of you in the audience, thank you for being here.

[00:00:20] I know you've got nothing else to do. You're at home, right, and this is an opportunity for you to learn something important. Of course, we have to thank our title sponsor legendary foods for making the tasty pastry, which is basically a pop tart without all the bad stuff and only good stuff. It's got nine grams.

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[00:01:13] So check them out, eat legendary.com. So in the height of, uh, this discussion about coronavirus, everybody is concerned about their immune system and rightfully so. And my guest today has something to contribute to this discussion from something that we have talked about for many, many years on this show.

[00:01:33] And that is the effect of exercise and physical activity on the body's defense system. Welcome Dr. David Neiman. How are you

[00:01:41] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:01:41] here again, thanks for

[00:01:43] Carl Lanore: [00:01:43] having me. Thanks for being here. Also. So, uh, you are the director of human performance. Uh, the human performance lab over at North Carolina is a research campus of Appalachia state university, correct?

[00:01:56] Yes. And so you've spent your life studying, uh, the [00:02:00] outcomes of something that people pretty much don't care about much, eh, the majority of Americans, that's exercise.

[00:02:08] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:02:08] Yes. And my specialty is what exercise does to the immune system. Very

[00:02:15] Carl Lanore: [00:02:15] interesting. And so before we get into the study, uh, it's, it's safe to say that people who were concerned about, uh, contracting a virus in general would probably do better to exercise than not, right?

[00:02:28] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:02:28] Yeah. I mean, in a series of studies, uh, we've shown, uh, beyond any doubt that people who engage in about 30, 60 minutes of physical activity on most days of the week. If you randomize them to do that 30 16 minutes five days a week compared to a randomized control group, the number of illness days with the common cold who drop about 40 50%.

[00:02:57] In the exercise group, if [00:03:00] we also followed a large cohort of a thousand individuals during both the winter and the fall, and we showed a 43% reduction in the number of illness days in the group that was exercising on a near daily basis compared to people who were largely avoiding activity. So the question then arises, well, how does.

[00:03:26] Uh, moderate to vigorous exercise, um, protect you from acute respiratory illness. And those are caused by rhino viruses, but also Corona viruses. And so what we've done is another whole series of studies in the laboratory, and we showed that every time you get out and exercise. Um, immune cells from the spleen, the thymus lymph nodes, the, the periphery of the [00:04:00] body are recruited into the blood compartment.

[00:04:03] They circulate through the body at a higher rate than normal during that 30, 60 minute bout of exercise. And then for about three hours after, and then those immune cells all go back, uh, from where they came while they're circulating around. Uh, they can detect viruses more easily and then kill them

[00:04:27] Carl Lanore: [00:04:27] cause they're all, they're basically on patrol at that moment.

[00:04:30] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:04:30] It's the perfect analogy is it's like the Marines being in their base, something brings them out to, uh, circulate around, engage the enemy, deal with them, and then go back. But then the enemy can come back unless you go out again the next day. And keep doing it, and then we call it a summation effect that over time, illness goes down.

[00:04:57] Okay.

[00:04:58] Carl Lanore: [00:04:58] We will get on track with [00:05:00] the planned discussion here. We're going to go through your study detailed, but there's a, there's a common, uh. A belief now that as we age, I'm 62 probably you and I aren't too far apart. Uh, where are our thymus atrophies and shrinks? But what about when someone is a lifelong Divo Tay of exercise?

[00:05:24] Do we see that same atrophy of the thymus that we see in just the general population? That doesn't exercise.

[00:05:30] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:05:30] So there's been a lot of research into the aging immune system and whether or not activity can at least mitigate some of the decrease. Like you said, the thymus will shrink and out of the thymus come educated T-cells that we need to orchestrate the immune response to anything that we are fighting against and those T cells.

[00:05:58] Become less functional [00:06:00] as we age. Um, we, uh, were one of the first teams to show we took, uh, some of the, uh, most fittest, the most physically fit and lean elderly women that we could find. They were all senior games competitors, gold, silver medal winners, average age 73. And then we took their blood and compared a variety of immune measures in them compared to a group of age matched sedentary peers.

[00:06:35] We showed that the T cells of those fifth older women operated at a level equal to women about half their age. Wow. And other studies have shown the same thing. And a regular physical activity. Staying lean and active as you get older, will help attenuate the aging of our immune systems. [00:07:00] Interesting.

[00:07:00] Carl Lanore: [00:07:00] Very, very interesting.

[00:07:02] All right, so let's start out with the four things that you look to, uh, discuss in your recent paper, uh, the acute and chronic effects of exercise on the immune system. Can you discuss that first.

[00:07:14] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:07:14] So, as we were saying, every time you get out for a brisk walk or sports or weightlifting or anything that you'd like to do, uh, that will recruit immune cells into the blood, they circulate around, protect you, and go back.

[00:07:30] However, at the same time, too much of a good thing can turn around and hurt you. So people who like run marathons, we've done a whole series of studies on marathoners and ultra marathoners, and what we've shown is that as you get beyond 90 minutes of high-intensity running and you dig deep into your glycogen stores.

[00:07:56] Um, this sends a signal to the brain [00:08:00] that glycogen is getting low, the brain needs glucose to do its job. Um, the brain then sends out some signals to the, your adrenal cortex. Stress hormones go up, cortisol and epinephrin. Those then start to down regulate the immune system. And the net effect is that there is transient immune.

[00:08:22] This function. Four hours after running a marathon or ultra marathon. And we did a huge study of 2,300, um, marathoners in Los Angeles who was the Los Angeles marathon, which is, uh, run in March every year at the end of the winter. And we showed that the illness rate, um. During the week after that marathon was 5.9 times higher in the ones that ran the race compared to a control group of marathon runners that didn't [00:09:00] run that race.

[00:09:01] So, uh, we know that heavy exertion actually hurts the immune system, but that heavy exertion has to be by high intensity sustained running. We've done a series of studies that, like in one we did two hours of weight lifting. And another, we did two hours of tennis and a rolling, and anytime there's a stop goes, stop, go nature to the activity, the immune system handles it just fine.

[00:09:30] There's no problem. It's a high intensity running it, continuous, unrelenting. Um, I think, you know, the story of, um. Uh, in ancient Greece, there were never thought. And the first Rocco

[00:09:47] Carl Lanore: [00:09:47] tell it for the audience that doesn't know God

[00:09:49] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:09:49] well. So basically there was a big battle and they sent a runner to call back, uh, to the King of ancient Greece, to, to let them know that victory was at [00:10:00] hand.

[00:10:00] And he ran, uh, for a few hours, uh, got there and ran to the King and said, Nike. Victory, and then dropped dead on the spot. And as I have told my students that should have been a warning sign, they had long endurance running isn't really what humans were designed for. And as you know, there's a marathon, a craze that has swept through the world, and a lot of people are running marathons.

[00:10:29] And what we've shown is that there are certain individuals that can handle it just fine. Others do not, and they tend to get ill, uh, during the week or two after running those races. So in the acute area, um, we've shown that typically the good news is 30 16 minutes is highly protective. But as soon as you start getting into that, uh, spectrum where really there are few people who do that, then that amount of [00:11:00] exercise can turn around and hurt you.

[00:11:03] So is that again, the summary

[00:11:05] Carl Lanore: [00:11:05] is that the glycogen depletion that is domino one that starts this process.

[00:11:10] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:11:10] Everything in the body is multifactorial, but we feel that that is perhaps the most important of the reasons why the brain will start increasing the production of stress hormones. So there's body temperature.

[00:11:26] Um, uh, your fat burning goes way up, the glycogen goes down, you feel terrible. Um, and then you get, uh, inflamed. There's more muscle damage, there's oxidative stress, and all of those signals together add up. To, uh, put the immune system down. As I tell people, the immune system basically reflects the stress that you're putting the body through.

[00:11:54] Uh, this, this happens if you're going through mental stress, there's been research showing that [00:12:00] people who are going through a divorce and having marital discord. That if you follow them for a six month period, they have double the days of sickness compared to people who have a good mental health. So any stress, mental, physical does affect the immune system.

[00:12:18] And especially in athletes who are going through mental stress on top of a lack of sleep. And then on top of that, pushing too hard in her training. That's a one, two, three punch down. We'll put many people down.

[00:12:33] Carl Lanore: [00:12:33] The reason I asked about the glycogen stores, depletion being a possible domino, one is I want to look at our population for a second.

[00:12:45] Not athletes, but we have a lot of people that have, uh, acquired diabetes. I like to call it type two diabetes. And one of the salient characteristics of advanced. Type two diabetes is lactic acidosis. And this is [00:13:00] because, and please correct me, this is what I have learned it to be. But when insulin sensitivity becomes, uh, so, uh, low or high, when insulin resistance becomes so high.

[00:13:13] That glow glucose can't really get into the muscle. And so you have this a preponderance of of lactic acid production in muscle.

[00:13:22] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:13:22] These  fat, a lot of fat is burned, toned bodies coming out.

[00:13:28] Carl Lanore: [00:13:28] Right. And so I'm thinking maybe this is that glycogen store level trigger could be why we see type two diabetics so prone to just general illness, colds, viruses, flues, everything else.

[00:13:41] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:13:41] Yup. And you just hit on a very important point. It's a new term called immuno, uh, metabolism, which is that immune cells actually have to have glucose to do their job. If for any reason that glucose supply is diminished, [00:14:00] that can happen in a marathon runner, that is glycogen depleted, it can happen in a diabetic, then those immune cells cannot function properly.

[00:14:08] And then you can have. Uh, on the individual is immunocompromised. And of course, you've heard that people with type one and type two diabetes right now are immunocompromised and more prone to the severe form of Colvin 19.

[00:14:23] Carl Lanore: [00:14:23] But what about people who engage a highly restrictive. Longterm ketogenic diet where they eating 60, 70% fat, some protein, very little carbohydrates.

[00:14:35] They're actually trying to deplete glycogen. They're trying to produce more ketones. It sounds to me like they would be at higher risk of, uh, immuno, uh, uh, poor, poor immune response.

[00:14:47] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:14:47] Yes. Uh, the early indications, you know, we need more longterm human studies. Um, but we did take, uh, some athletes, we glycogen depleted them, and then we looked [00:15:00] at the ability of their monocytes, an important immune cell to function properly.

[00:15:06] And we show that those immune cells could not function very well at all, uh, in the glycogen depleted state. So people on the ketogenic diet are chronically quite Kojin depleted. They're keeping carbs out of their body. They have very low supplies in the blood and the muscle and every indication until we learn more with longterm research is that is not a healthy thing for the immune system.

[00:15:35] The human body was not designed to have a lot of protein and fat going into it. Um, every major professional group has said. That humans are primarily a plant eating species, and then they can have some low fat dairy products, low fat, healthier meats, uh, but that more than half of our calories should be [00:16:00] from carbohydrate.

[00:16:01] And for some strange reason, and it's interesting how it's like every 20 years this come through. It was the Pritikin diet and then it's recycled to a different name, ketogenic. And then it just cycles back and forth. There's this, um, just this strange infatuation that people have with high protein, high fat diets.

[00:16:24] They think for some reason that there are special health benefits. There are not. Okay.

[00:16:31] Carl Lanore: [00:16:31] Let's go onto the second topic at hand. Clinical benefits of exercise, immune relationship.

[00:16:38] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:16:38] Right? So, uh, I'd say, uh, there, there's really two big areas here. One is what we talked about is that people who are active are less prone to acute respiratory illnesses.

[00:16:53] And the research there is so compelling is a 40, 50% reduction in sick days. That [00:17:00] is a stronger effect than any medication. Any supplement, any diet pattern that's been studied. Physical activity has a lot of power in helping the immune system do its job better. In fact, immune system needs exercise to do its job properly.

[00:17:22] So that's the first clinical benefit. The second one is, is that if you are a fit and lean person, you are your inflammation. We call it systemic inflammation is very low. People that are sitting around and overweight, they have a higher chronic, uh, inflammation going on in their body, and that undergirds every major chronic disease that we suffer from heart disease, various types of cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, arthritis.

[00:17:57] So chronic inflammation is a terrible. [00:18:00] A risk factor for many of our diseases. And the good news is, is if you are a lean, active person, you can knock that way down.

[00:18:10] Carl Lanore: [00:18:10] I would imagine that autoimmunity, which is surging in our population today, falls into this category of, of chronic inflammatory response, or at least inappropriate inflammatory response where we have, uh, the, the soldiers of the immune system is inflammation at that.

[00:18:25] That's who goes out and. And fights things. And when it starts to attack our own tissue, we call this autoimmunity that that has to have a role or this has to have a role in those conditions that we see today too, doesn't it?

[00:18:40] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:18:40] You know, um, it's an interesting area. The autoimmune diseases, for example, uh, various types of arthritis.

[00:18:49] Even type one diabetes is an autoimmune disorder. We know very little about how regular activity affects autoimmune [00:19:00] diseases, that the data so far are scarce and we just need to learn more about it. But the good news for the vast majority of people who don't have a chronic disease, don't do not have an autoimmune disease, is if they stay lean and active all their life.

[00:19:17] Inflammation is down and they're a risk of getting sick from the common cold and other respiratory infections is substantially down about 40 45%

[00:19:29] Carl Lanore: [00:19:29] that's exciting. Let's move on to the next topic at hand, and that one is, as it comes up here, nutritional influences on immune response to exercise, and,

[00:19:39] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:19:39] and we already touched on the big one.

[00:19:41] Humans were not meant to exercise heavily without carbohydrates. We have shown that if there's a runner or a swimmer or a cyclist, even a weightlifter who wants to put in a lot of training on a particular day, if they train without any carbohydrates, let's say [00:20:00] they get up there overnight fast, that they drink water, they go out for a 20 mile run.

[00:20:05] There is a huge metabolic stress to the body as you exercise without carbohydrate. We've done a whole series of studies since 1995 we were really the first team to show that if you exercise long and hard with carbohydrate, you will greatly attenuate the negative effects on the immune system. Your immune system gets through that exercise in much better shape.

[00:20:33] Then, uh, if you, uh, just are on water and no car at all. Now a lot of people say, well, we don't want to drink these sports drinks because it's just sugar water. So then we've done a series of studies looking at bananas, and we've shown that bananas, if you, if you drink water and eat a half a banana before exercise and then have the other half of the banana after you get back, we've shown that the [00:21:00] carbohydrate and the banana.

[00:21:02] Is just is bio available in the human gut as a sugar drank? It gets through the body, just find it, and it attenuates the inflammatory response. But the good news is in the banana are about 20 metabolites. For example, serotonin. Dopamine, and when those go on the body, they exert additional antiinflammatory effects.

[00:21:27] We've published some important papers in high level journals to that effect. So we highly recommend that people use fruit instead of sports beverages because you can get to sugar plus all the healthy things that are in the fruit. So we just completed a study. Then where we had people eat a cup of blueberries a day for two weeks before they exercised heavily for three hours, and we showed that when you eat blueberries, the purple color in the blueberries, which is called [00:22:00] anthocyanins, will go to your gut.

[00:22:02] The bacteria will break them up into smaller pieces. Those pieces, we call them phenolics start circulating in the body. And then they exert anti inflammatory and immune regulatory effects. And then that effect is we showed that the metabolic disturbance after heavy exertion is greatly attenuated if you've been eating blueberries.

[00:22:25] So the sum and substance of all the research in this area is that if you eat a lot of berries, at least a cup a day, and you exercise always with some carbohydrate, preferably fruit, you will. Mitigate many of the negative effects on the immune system from that heavy exertion exercise spout. And the reason we did all of this as war fighters and Olympic athletes and many other athletes have to train hard.

[00:22:56] Um, and they wanted to know what can we do to [00:23:00] help us get through that better? And that's the strategy that we came up with.

[00:23:04] Carl Lanore: [00:23:04] Now we are talking about people who train hard, and we don't, this doesn't have to be heroic, but if you get up in the morning on an empty stomach and you run, uh, even for a half an hour.

[00:23:16] You should have something to eat first and generally about a half hour before you go. So if it's, if it's something that's easily digestible, it's already in the bloodstream, but there's a common, is a new trend out. Uh, because of my friend dr McKell black, his cloney and others who have identified senescent cell accumulation as the, as the root for what we call age related diseases, or even aging.

[00:23:40] Why, you know, why don't we, why do we slow down? Why do all muscles ache when we age? And, and Dr. Black is Colone has identified this senescent cell and now that's become a very popular thing. And we know. That time restricted feeding, which downregulates M Tor periodically and amp K comes up, seems to [00:24:00] vanquish these senescent cells.

[00:24:01] We also know exercise, one bout of exercise reduced senescent cells in muscle tissue by 40% one bout, I mean, that's significant. So what do we say to guys like me, who, I have my last meal at 6:00 PM I'm not training right now. So, because I, I'm all, I took yesterday and today off, so I'm going to fast until the end of today's show.

[00:24:23] But what about guys like me who want to keep that time restricted fasting and try to leverage the potential anti-aging benefits of time restricted feeding, but I want to train in the morning. I should still have something to eat.

[00:24:37] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:24:37] You're saying, wow. So.

[00:24:40] Carl Lanore: [00:24:40] I know it's hard. It's hard to balance all this, isn't it?

[00:24:43] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:24:43] Wow. So, so the intermittent fasting, uh, area has, um, unfortunately, the science behind it is here in there. Um, as I tell my students, true fasting [00:25:00] is moderation. At every meal you eat breakfast, lunch, supper, three moderate meals. That is a better dietary pattern for your immune health and mental health.

[00:25:16] Everything than fasting and only eating for six hours like some people do, right? Or skipping days and this and that. It is better to just have that even keel dietary pattern. Primarily plant based food, dab dietary pattern is highly consistent. With reductions in all sorts of diseases and immune health, and of course, the dietary guidelines for Americans where the world's best nutritionists get together.

[00:25:48] Look at all the best studies put out there, uh, guidelines. They have said that there are, uh, some healthy dietary patterns, which is the Mediterranean diet. [00:26:00] Which is primarily, uh, fruits and vegetables and nuts and olive oil, a low red meat, um, and some seafood and, and having a moderate amount not getting obese.

[00:26:13] And then also the vegetarian diet is another dietary pattern with a little bit of fish here and there. And then a few other similar diets. They're all plant based diets. And, and this intermittent fasting is not consistent with the best research that we have right now. And there's, it's almost a fad. I'm, I'm just being very open with you, uh, on the intermittent fasting, but it is not accepted by the top scientists, uh, in the United States right now.

[00:26:44] Okay.

[00:26:44] Carl Lanore: [00:26:44] And then the last effect that you looked at was the exercise on Ima immunosenescence. So we know that our immune system. Actually, they have telomeres. We know that they, they break down. In fact, the HIV, when it turns into AIDS, [00:27:00] it's just, uh, a very rapid, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, pro, uh, rotation or a turnover of the immune cells until they just can't reproduce anymore.

[00:27:12] So what we're talking about here is getting your immune cells to not age so fast, right?

[00:27:18] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:27:18] Right. So again, as we were talking earlier, the T cells, which are so important, in fact, the HIV attacks was called the T helper cell. The acronym is CD four and that's why the CD four count is very important in people with HIV and AIDS.

[00:27:37] Is when it drops too low because those Kells or cells are being killed by the virus, then you enter into the last final stage of AIDS. So the T cells are critical. If, if anything hurts them, like the aging process, then, uh, our immune health goes down. And the very good news is. Is thin active people have T-cells that [00:28:00] operate at a much better level than in people who sit around and gain weight as they get older.

[00:28:06] Humans were not meant to sit and to get heavy, and it's this crazy thing. Seven out of 10 Americans are now too heavy and, and you combine that with an aging society. Uh, and then all of a sudden I'm novel coronavirus sweeps through our country, uh, preying on the immuno compromised older individuals who are heavy with type two diabetes.

[00:28:34] This is, this is why this is happening, is we've let ourselves go and we need to reverse this.

[00:28:40] Carl Lanore: [00:28:40] In fact, I actually believe that, um, just the way there are different breeds of dogs. Uh, I kind of feel like they're, they're a working group. Humans, I come from them. You know, I come from a long line of brick layers and I used to, I had a hunting dog, and when I didn't [00:29:00] hunt with this dog and I didn't take the dog out and let him run, literally for an hour or two, he would actually start to exhibit some neurotic actions.

[00:29:12] And I worked with race horses. And race horses are the same way. They're very high, strong. And when you don't work them enough and when you're not letting them out of their stalls enough, they start doing things like cribbing and stall walking where they just walk continuously in a circle. And I think there's some of us who are more prone to needing to literally leave it all on the field every single day.

[00:29:34] And we do better. And when we don't get that activity, we start to develop. Certain types of symptoms and some people, some people can get by with, you know, not moving a lot. I'm one of those people that I, and I've said it for years, you said it at the beginning of the show. Every time I go to the gym, I don't feel that great, but every time I leave the fit, the gym, I feel like King Kong and I started calling it.

[00:29:58] I'd say, look, other people are taking [00:30:00] Lipitor and, and, and Xanax. This is my medicine. I come in here, I take my dose, I go home, I feel great for the rest of the day. I start again tomorrow. So I think some of us more so than others, we still have that. We're not far away from our ancestors as far as that, those Geno types where we tend to need more a strenuous exercise to feel good.

[00:30:22] You think that, uh, I'm, I'm off

[00:30:24] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:30:24] on that. No. In fact, surveys, if you ask the average person, uh, who exercises, you know, why do you exercise, uh, like you do, most will report that it's because it makes them feel better. And the human mind needs exercise, uh, to do it's job. Cognition is improved. Uh, depression, anxiety are down.

[00:30:49] We feel better. We have elevated mood. The immune system needs exercise to do its job better. Our bodies are arranged [00:31:00] to be active, and if we sit around and get heavy, uh, your health goes South. And then again, Colvin, 19 these opportunistic infections are going to hurt all of these people who are older and heavy and sitting around.

[00:31:16] I, I just hope this is a wake up call to America, uh, to, to get fit.

[00:31:22] Carl Lanore: [00:31:22] I've been working on a blog and I'm afraid to release it because, okay, I'm going to say something here that may make people, some people go call you went too far, but I'm just going gonna I'm just want to put this out there. When the black plague it occurred, it killed close to 100 million people worldwide.

[00:31:40] And it killed the most. It killed almost 25 million people just in the Mediterranean, Italy being the largest group of people who died because the oldest and longest running commercial cooperative, the silk trade and fashion have caused diseases that started in China to populate in Italy [00:32:00] that that's, that's the fact.

[00:32:01] But after all those deaths, we had a Renaissance. In fact, we had a blooming and a blossoming of of people, and we're looking at today and we're saying, look, there's a lot of people aren't taking care of themselves and they happen to be the ones that are great at greatest risk. Everyone will probably get through this, most of us, all of us.

[00:32:23] But the reality is this is in fact a wake up call. This is a wake up call that don't. Pray to your God because it's coming around in the next couple of years. Straighten yourself out. And I say this as a former 330 pound cardiac patient who takes no real medications other than some testosterone and thyroid hormone now, and so I've been there.

[00:32:46] I'm a card carrying fat person. I still see myself as a fat person, but I'm telling you, this is your one chance. To really get it right, so the next time something like this happens, you're not as concerned about your own outcome. We're going to take one [00:33:00] quick commercial break. When we come back, we're going to talk about how you stratified this research into different periods in time.

[00:33:08] We're talking with Dr. David Nieman and we'll be right back.

[00:33:17] Welcome back to soupy Meridian. We're talking about the benefits of exercise. On the immune system. I don't want to get, I don't want to get too far off, so we're getting questions on a couple of different forums. I'm going to put this one up real quick. A lot of conflict info here, and I know what he's talking about because, um, I'm not a proponent of being vegan, but I don't think that's what you're saying.

[00:33:40] Either. You're, you're, you're pro, you're promoting more of a, a vegetarian diet. Like, like the Hunzas some of the longest lived people in the world. They are lacto vegetarian, they eat dairy. For their, their source of animal protein. Uh, and they eat lots of vegetables. And I think what you're saying is, and correct me, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

[00:34:00] [00:34:00] I think what you're saying is that people do need to eat a lot more plant based. With their diets. We have a lot of people who really don't consume any sources of fruits or vegetables at all, especially the deeper ketogenic diets, which are a little bit extreme, but they are just as extreme on the other side as the vegan diets.

[00:34:17] And you're kind of in the middle here. What am I? Am I correct about that?

[00:34:21] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:34:21] Yeah. There, there is no virtue in being vegan. It's fine, but there's no virtue in it. The healthiest dietary patterns in the world. Are plant-based, lots of fruits and vegetables, nuts and seeds, and whole grains with then some seafood, lean meats, uh, and, and all of that is very consistent with longterm health.

[00:34:44] But when you avoid fruits and grains and vegetables, and, and, and are primarily eating high fat, high protein diets, um. The, the longterm effect on [00:35:00] health is not good. And that's why every major professional organization is recommended this balanced dietary pattern. Kinda like the Mediterranean diet as being the healthiest.

[00:35:13] There's no magic in knocking out carbohydrates. Um, it, that hurts. It doesn't help.

[00:35:20] Carl Lanore: [00:35:20] And I don't want to derail this and into talking about nutrition today is like talking about religion or politics. Yes. You really, because, because people feel so strongly about their dietary choices today that we have entire cruises for low carb people and Quito people and I, and I don't believe any nutritional.

[00:35:42] Approach should come with the club membership because I think you're choosing your nutrition for the wrong reasons. I think nutrition is very individual. I think some people seem to do better. There are people on this planet that can thrive as vegans because the gut microbiota. And the way they digest food [00:36:00] seems to work for them.

[00:36:01] There are other people that become nutritionally deficient just on a straight vegan diet. My point is some people can eat vegan. I can't. I'm not going to deny them what works for them. So whatever works for you nutritionally, stick with it. But one thing we can all agree on, and that is the value of not look exercise.

[00:36:20] Is something relatively new to make up for the fact that we don't work in toil anymore. That's where we have to exercise because and generations past, we were farming, we were raising animals. We were hunting, we were building cabins. We worked all day. Today we sit all day. So we have to have exercise.

[00:36:39] It's a, it's the new replacement, but we cannot deny that most people are not active enough. And we know this because there's nice trackers that show people that they don't get 2000 steps a day, year in and year out. Not a good thing. Not a good thing. So

[00:36:56] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:36:56] exercise used to be a part of our lifestyle. It just was.

[00:37:00] [00:36:59] Built in because of manual labor and, and, and transportation was, didn't used to be like it is today. So now things are changed and we have to get exercise back into the lifestyle. I tell my students, you know, you take time to eat, you take time to sleep. Most people should do more of that. Um, you also need to.

[00:37:25] In the same way, make time for exercise. It has to be built into the schedule because it's not naturally there anymore, right? And so you've got to build it in and then just stick with something you enjoy and do it the rest of your life. The good news is, is you don't have to put on bright colored shoes and running circles.

[00:37:45] I mean, you can, if you take stairs instead of the elevator and walk during your breaks and walk to . From work. If you live somewhere nearby, it can be integrated. Um, if you think [00:38:00] that way, you develop this exercise mentality where you do everything possible to put in those 6,000 to 10,000 steps a day.

[00:38:08] Carl Lanore: [00:38:08] Elisa and I, and she's probably watching live today, started to actually use the stairs. Like we'll, we'll go up and down the stairs 10 times. If you don't, if you are, if you were at the gym, maybe you jump on the StairMaster, the stair climber for. 1520 minutes to warm up. So we'll, like I said to the other, you know, we have these stairs.

[00:38:26] We don't have to go out walk. We could just do stairs. So we started doing the stairs in the house, talking about, I'm sorry,

[00:38:32] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:38:32] I just want to say it's going to be interesting to see what happens with gyms now in the future, because gyms are a place where the transmission of coal vid 19 is highly likely. Um, you know, you have people who are breathing heavily during exercise.

[00:38:49] Um, they are shedding the virus if it's in their system. Uh, if they call Firsties or breathe heavily onto handles and objects, the droplets are there. You [00:39:00] touch it, you touch your face and you can get ill that way. It's called, um, auto and or self inoculation where you just touch your face and it all gets in right there.

[00:39:12] So, uh, the gym unfortunately is a place where transmission. That the likelihood is very high and we'll see what happens. Um, as time goes on, uh, with Jim Jim's, it may be that things start to change there. I mean, I can't believe how closely they pack all the treadmills and the cycle ergometers and everything close together.

[00:39:37] You're just so close to other people. And a transmission is high and things are going to have to change. I don't think things are going to be the same after this. I actually

[00:39:47] Carl Lanore: [00:39:47] was talking to Peter Taunton yesterday about this. He has 6,000 gyms. Uh, 5,000 of them are closed right now.

[00:39:55] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:39:55] Yeah.

[00:39:55] Carl Lanore: [00:39:55] He has the snap fitness and he has a lot of these, uh, these [00:40:00] self-serve type gyms.

[00:40:01] And, uh, we were just talking about this, you know, I think a lot of people are actually going to invest in home gyms and they're just not going to go back to the gym anymore. I, I really believe that. I, I have a good friend who owns, played against sports and he's, technically, he's closed, but you can pick up.

[00:40:17] At the street. If people are buying gym equipment on the phone with a credit card and they're putting it out on the curb and they're putting it in their car and taking it home, what's going to end up happening is a lot of people going to outfit their own gyms. They're gonna go, why am I, why am I going to pay $29 a month?

[00:40:30] I just got, and the other thing that people are going to kick by rep by, by this whole process is it's coffee. Nobody's got it. There's no Starbucks open. All these people at Jones for coffee, they're going to have a month and a half off for coffee. They're never going to go back. It's really going to be interesting to see what happened to

[00:40:45] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:40:45] you.

[00:40:45] Yeah, it is. You know, right now we're being told to stay at home at the safest place right now is our home. And, uh, if that continues, we'll be working out at our homes and doing everything else and with, with, uh, [00:41:00] any gathering of large crowds, you know, people see, people tend to sneeze and cough openly into the airspace.

[00:41:08] And hopefully people have gotten that message and we'll start smothering and if they're ill, staying home and not going to work. I think, well, like cigarette smoking, it used to be cool to smoke and then as all the laws started to change, um, it became uncool to smoke. And most experts in this field say the number one reason that smoking prevalence has fallen so low.

[00:41:36] Around 15% is because of this social pressure, uh, to stop that habit.

[00:41:43] Carl Lanore: [00:41:43] Stigma.

[00:41:44] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:41:44] Yes. And I think the social pressure now to be more hygienic. Is going to be there. I think that when people conference these openly into the airspace that your breathing is going to be like people smoking and putting their smoke in your airspace.

[00:42:00] [00:42:00] I think things are going to change.

[00:42:02] Carl Lanore: [00:42:02] I think you're right. I, I, I bet the Kroger's has people in the lobby cleaning the carts. When you push it back, they clean it before they put it back out. I predict that's not going to go away because that's going to reduce flu, flu, influenza transmission as well.

[00:42:17] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:42:17] Yeah,

[00:42:18] Carl Lanore: [00:42:18] you're right.

[00:42:18] You're right. Let's talk about an

[00:42:20] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:42:20] Amber. Do you remember when, uh, uh, somebody started putting things into, I think it was Tylenol bottles. Um, yes. And then all of a sudden everybody got afraid and now all the companies seal. Yeah, it came, it stayed forever.

[00:42:38] Carl Lanore: [00:42:38] Yes, you're right. I forgot about that. Uh, 1900 to 1979 you, you have here, which focused on exercise induced changes in basic immune cell counts and function.

[00:42:47] Talk about that.

[00:42:48] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:42:48] But one of the earliest studies in this area was at the Boston marathon. It was published in 1902. And they just simply took, uh, uh, [00:43:00] some blood samples on some marathon runners before and after running the Boston marathon. And, uh, I liked reading that paper because all they measured was white blood cell counts and neutrophil counts, and the neutrophils just sore.

[00:43:15] Uh, when you run a marathon, they just go way up in the blood because of the stress. And, and the author of that paper. Said, it looked like this person was sick. That's what they put in the paper, that the marathon runners, after they'd run that race, uh, their blood cell counts looked as if they were fighting an illness.

[00:43:37] And indeed, they kind of pegged, uh, the very, uh, issue that, um, we have been studying for decades ever since, is that when humans do something like a marathon, they literally are almost sick. They are actually in an immunocompromised state, and that stays around for hours. [00:44:00] Uh, we just published some new data that if you push hard enough, long enough, it can last for days.

[00:44:06] And what I am telling people right now with the covert 19 is that you cannot run marathons right now. You shouldn't run marathon races because you actually put yourself into the immunocompromised group. During the hours after a marathon, if Cove at 19 is around you, you're more prone to getting sick. So this is not a time to run marathons.

[00:44:33] Ultra marathons. I think you may have read about this one guy that ran a marathon in us balcony. Thank you. Is uh, some European guy

[00:44:41] Carl Lanore: [00:44:41] who, are you kidding? What? On a treadmill or

[00:44:43] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:44:43] something? No, I'm this little balcony. It's, it's like he just ran back back and forth. Yeah. For a marathon. And then this made worldwide news as if this was some good thing.

[00:44:55] I thought it was a stupid thing. You shouldn't be putting your immune [00:45:00] system down like that. Um, at this time, everybody needs to keep their exercise moderate. Uh, and then that will help reduce, uh, the transmission of the Cove at 19. We have shown that illness rates go down. But then push it too hard, you're going to get more prone to sickness.

[00:45:19] So some of the earliest studies, uh, were in that area and, but, uh, they were a kind of simple studies until we got to 1980s.

[00:45:28] Carl Lanore: [00:45:28] That's where we're going right now. So here we go. 1982, 1989, a very short period of time, but a lot of progress. Huh?

[00:45:37] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:45:37] Well, um, and I'm sure you remember, uh, when the HIV. Epidemic hit in the early eighties, how the virus was finally identified in 1983 and it was a scary time.

[00:45:50] I mean, at, at that time, uh, we didn't know a lot about that virus. And, uh, I remember, uh, one kid who was infected, [00:46:00] went to school and all the parents got really upset because they felt that if that kid bit another kid, that they would pass the virus. And then there were people that were afraid that if a mosquito landed on you, um, and, and drew your blood, if you were HIV infected and then flew to another person, it would pass the virus to the next person.

[00:46:22] We were all afraid. We didn't know. And then what happen is many hospitals, uh, bought flow cytometers full cytometers allow you to measure the T lymphocyte counts, especially the T helper cell count. Which is what the virus attacks, and then what that did. All of a sudden there were these wonderful instruments and all the hospitals, and then as the HIV epidemic is science sorted out how the transmission occurred and the drugs were developed, et cetera.

[00:46:56] Um, what happened is that many of these hospitals [00:47:00] opened up their equipment to professors like me. Who are interested in studying the effects of exercise on the immune system. So the Dawn of exercise immunology began in the early eighties when the HIV epidemic occurred, and then many of the early studies focused on heavy exertion.

[00:47:23] And the fact that the immune system, how had transient dysfunction, uh, after heavy exertion. And then we started moving towards the benefits of moderate activity

[00:47:35] Carl Lanore: [00:47:35] and, and moderate. Like right now, I'm not training every day. It's not practical. It's not possible. And also I feel like I'm going to use this time to have a little more rest.

[00:47:49] Then I usually do because I usually train and the audience knows I, I, I, I tend to flirt with over-training, which obviously is not good for my immune system. Um, so I'm training every third day [00:48:00] right now that, that day I train. I really do a lot of work, a lot of cardiovascular conditioning and heavy lifting that I can at home.

[00:48:09] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:48:09] What's your duration? Um,

[00:48:11] Carl Lanore: [00:48:11] I only tried for about 47 minutes as a rule ever. Only because my schedule, I never knew the 90 minute threshold. That's interesting to me because back in the day, I used to train for two hours, but, uh, I only trained for about 47 minutes just because I have a lot of responsibility and I feel like I'm Derek derelict of my duties if I don't get here and get there.

[00:48:32] And so, but yeah, I, as a rule, it's like under 50 minutes I, Jerry trade, but for that 50 minutes, like I do a quarter to a third mile farmer's walks. Uh, with two 65 pound kettlebells, and then I stopped 10 times and do 10 pushups. When I giving my my, my forums a break, I'll do 10 pushups and I'll grab him on a walk.

[00:48:54] That's my warmup before I train. And then right now I'm doing a lot of, uh, um, [00:49:00] I'm doing a lot of body weight stuff as well. Like during the breaks, I go out and I do fifth. I got it. There's a box out there. So I'm doing incline pushups today and I'm doing 15 pushups and 15 body weight squats, and then I come sit back down.

[00:49:12] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:49:12] Yeah.

[00:49:12] Carl Lanore: [00:49:12] You know, but when I go to the gym, I move a lot heavier weight.

[00:49:16] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:49:16] Yeah. But this is very consistent with improved immune health, which you're describing, and it's a great routine that should be helping your immune system right now. Um, I would though, you know, you say every third day, um, if you could get it, uh, more like, uh, five times a week, then that would be better.

[00:49:39] Because every time you do what you described. The immune cells will circulate for during the bout and for a few hours after. And, and it's just like the Marine Corps being out there protecting you so. I would urge that you up the frequency a bit.

[00:49:54] Carl Lanore: [00:49:54] What about, what about what if I just walk for a half hour, 45 minutes on alternate days, you [00:50:00] know, train that way.

[00:50:00] One day training. Just a walk. Okay.

[00:50:03] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:50:03] That'd be perfect.

[00:50:04] Carl Lanore: [00:50:04] Yeah. I, so let's go to the next, uh, period of time that you looked at in your research. And as soon as I close this, I'll be able to read it. So this was 1990 to 2009 again, interesting that we're looking at almost just decades of dramatic change now that we've gotten.

[00:50:20] Further up up the, uh, the calendar, so to speak.

[00:50:23] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:50:23] Yeah. So, you know, after we, uh, figured out that heavy exertion could hurt the immune system, everybody started asking, well, what about if I walk on most days of the weekends? We started showing that that was beneficial. And then I asked, these, began asking us, was there something I can eat to protect me, uh, when I have to train heavily?

[00:50:45] And then we found the carbohydrates. I especially fruit carbohydrates and blueberry polyphenols helped. And so that was the nutritional aspects there. We found many things though, [00:51:00] didn't help the immune system in the nutrition area. For example, we did several studies trying to give people high doses of vitamin C and we thought, well, maybe that would help the immune system get through everything better.

[00:51:13] That did not. Help at all. We did another study at the corner, a world triathlon championships, so in Hawaii, and we fed, um, it was randomized, double blind, placebo controlled. Some of the athletes got a high vitamin E supplements for two months before the race. The others got placebo. We thought all that extra vitamin E would help the immune system to the contrary.

[00:51:42] What we found is that vitamin E high doses actually wa, uh, ended up that the, uh, those triathletes had more inflammation and more oxidative stress post, uh, running the triathlon than people were who were on placebo [00:52:00] and high doses of vitamin E have fallen in disfavor across the board. Humans were not meant.

[00:52:06] To take high doses of vitamin E, and we showed that that applied to athletes. So all out of those studies, uh, came through. And really it ended up being that carbohydrate and flavonoids are the most important things, uh, for heavily exercise in people. And then all of this wonderful information that if you're old and fit, your immune system looks a lot younger, uh, than other people your age.

[00:52:31] Carl Lanore: [00:52:31] Kay. Can I ask, do you recall the form of vitamin ? Was it the, the synthetic D L or do you know if it was the natural D alpha tocopherol

[00:52:41] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:52:41] alpha?

[00:52:41] Carl Lanore: [00:52:41] Good. So it wasn't the synthetic stuff that, that's why he's on your group to look at it that way. Uh, and then lastly, uh, we're looking at 2010 to present the past 10 years.

[00:52:51] Um, and plus we have so many, as you point out here, I mean, everybody's got a watch now. That is, I mean, I mean, I have a [00:53:00] ring. That is literally a sleep study on a ring. W w the only thing it doesn't do is the, the, the, uh, the brain activity. But it, it, it, it looks at my heart rate. It looks at my pulse oximetry, how much my blood, it looks at my

[00:53:16] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:53:16] apnea.

[00:53:17] Carl Lanore: [00:53:17] It looks at my sleep stages, very, very specific sleep stages. I mean, I wear that. I don't use it every night anymore because I've got my sleep pretty zeroed in now, but I put that on anytime something's kind of, gee, I just don't. I feel like I slept good last night. I think tomorrow I'll re watch and I'll notice something.

[00:53:34] Oh, look at that. And I'll notice that, well, my room is warmer than normal, or something like that. So we have so many of these electronic devices around that, uh, that give us biometric information. It's a wonderful

[00:53:44] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:53:44] time, isn't it? It is. And in our field, I'll give you an example of what has happened. Um, so, and we.

[00:53:53] Just published a 28 week study on the [00:54:00] athlete that became the first human to Trek across Antarctica, unassisted on aided, I dunno if you

[00:54:08] Carl Lanore: [00:54:08] know,

[00:54:09] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:54:09] he, he, uh, did that in December of, uh, uh, 2018. And, and what we did is trained him to take. A finger prick and then one drop of blood onto what is called a Waterman card dries in 15 minutes.

[00:54:32] You fold it up, put it in a plastic bag, is very late. And so for the weeks leading up to the Antarctica Trek, and then it took them two months to get across Antarctica every Thursday morning, he, he would take a sample that single drop of dried blood. Uh, you can now use global proteomics using sophisticated LC mass spec [00:55:00] instruments and measure more than 700 proteins, many of them from the immune system.

[00:55:07] And what we showed in that athlete is that during the last month of the Antarctica Trek, he was pushing hard, not sleeping a lot. He lost a lot of weight, um, that his immune system. Went into a high stress suppressed state. Some person immune system were, uh, just super activated at a red flag level. Others, especially as neutrophils were not functioning a property.

[00:55:36] In fact, if he had been exposed to Colvin 19 or any other fibers like that, he was wide open. His immune system was totally dysfunctional. Uh, because of what he was doing. And it lasted throughout five weeks of recovery.

[00:55:52] Carl Lanore: [00:55:52] I was going to ask you how long it took it feel five weeks to recover from that.

[00:55:56] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:55:56] And well, he still wasn't even totally recovered five weeks later.

[00:56:00] [00:56:00] And so what has happened is this is called proteomics, um, and, and from a single drop of blood with these fancy new machines. You can now take a global, uh, overview of the immune system from a single drop of blood. And so it's a new era where we're going to learn a whole lot more, um, about, uh, how athletes, uh, how their immune systems respond to heavy exertion.

[00:56:28] We just also followed an athlete. So, um, he is going from the lowest point to the highest point. On each of the continents during the two year period, he started in Africa and he ran from, uh, uh, Djibouti Lake assault. That's the lowest point in Africa to the top of Mount Kilimanjaro. Wow. And it took him a month to do that.

[00:56:55] And he also kept those, uh, dry bus spot samples for [00:57:00] us. And we just got back his proteomics data, and again, his immune system just was, had a terrible, a suppressed response to that exertion. And so it's a new day where we can now follow athletes out in the field and gain a total body overview or the immune response, and then better guide.

[00:57:24] Athletes as to what they should do about this. And then also, we're, um, uh, working with the military, applying that new technology so that the war fighters can better understand what their immune systems are going through and then what they should do about it.

[00:57:40] Carl Lanore: [00:57:40] So, um, from an evolutionary perspective, we have, excuse me, this phenomenon called

[00:57:49] And we know that that's how we build muscle, right? The body upregulates and prepares for the next time we're going to do this and, and, and, and tries to overreach and, and being prepared [00:58:00] when someone does that to their immune system, basically destroying your immune system when they finally do come back.

[00:58:09] Whether it takes six weeks or six months. Do we see anything unique about their immune system thereafter? Is it more resistant or is it damaged?

[00:58:19] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:58:19] So, um, I've had about 50 athletes from around the world, uh, contact me, talking about their stories. And, and here is the common theme across these 50 athletes I've been working with is they.

[00:58:38] Uh, trained heavily for a lot of them are doing these adventure sports where they, you know, trekking across Antarctica or high to low or, uh, canoeing and running and cycling for days. And, uh, there's a race across America. We studied an athlete who did the race across America on bicycles. Have you heard about that?

[00:59:00] [00:59:00] Yeah. It took them 10 days to cycle across America. And, um, . Averaged, uh, two hours of sleep a day, then 10 days

[00:59:13] Carl Lanore: [00:59:13] that'll load will make you temporarily diabetic.

[00:59:17] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [00:59:17] Well, his immune system was shot. He was burnt out. And what we learned, some athletes can do that and, and their immune systems go through that terrible physiologic, uh, hit.

[00:59:32] And then slowly but surely bounce back and then they can do it again and keep doing that. I had a subject in one of my studies that had run over 300 100 mile races. You got to think of that over 300 of those, but there is a small percentage of athletes who attempt to do these big things who slip off the edge.

[00:59:59] And, [01:00:00] um, these athletes, uh, in fact, I, I'll tell you about a friend I had please. He trained with me for a year. You wanted to run a marathon, the grandfather mountain marathon in North Carolina. It's a tough marathon. And, uh, he got sick the night before the marathon. He'd been running with me all year. He was all excited about running marathon.

[01:00:23] And he got sick with a fever. Well, he wanted to run that race so bad. He ran that hard marathon with a fever. He then told me he woke up. Uh, the next morning and felt like he had arthritis and he could barely get out of bed. And, and he thought, well, I'll shake that off. Well, as the weeks went by, the months went by.

[01:00:47] He never slipped out of it. He got into a general fatigue syndrome that lasted the last, I haven't seen him for a while, but it lasted over two years. There was a study published in Australia. [01:01:00] Where they followed 36 athletes who developed chronic fatigue syndrome and 85% of them had exercised when they had a fever, and so this is a trigger is pushing too hard.

[01:01:15] Then you get sick and then you keep pushing, and then the immune system slips off the edge. A lot of the other athletes that I've worked with, they just are working. They their families, they're working. Um, and then in their evening hours, they push, push, push, getting ready for these, uh, ultra marathon type events.

[01:01:35] And then all of a sudden they slip over the edge and they can't sleep. Right? They feel unrefreshed. They feel like they have arthritis and fatigue, and he keeps calling and calling. And then they call me or email me and they say, I don't know what's wrong with me. I go to the doctor. The doctor said, you're the,

[01:01:52] Carl Lanore: [01:01:52] uh, hurting me of health.

[01:01:54] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [01:01:54] Yeah, well, you're the best looking sick person I've ever met, right? I mean, I can't see anything, [01:02:00] but the athlete knows something's wrong. They can't, uh, put out like they used to. And so I do believe there is a small percentage, uh, of people who tried to push into this outer zone that slip off the edge. It may be a genetic factor or something.

[01:02:18] They just weren't meant to do it. Some cam in, some cannot. And in general, the ones who dare to push out there, uh, better be very careful, read their bodies, find the sweet spot for themselves or else they'll slip off that edge.

[01:02:33] Carl Lanore: [01:02:33] Well, I think it's foolish to train in any type one of your sick. That's, I never, when I got sick, when I was really training, very heavy up until about my 57th year of life.

[01:02:45] Um, I was moving tonnage and when I got sick, I didn't go to the gym because I knew I would, my brain would force me to do the workout. And I would sub for it. Stay with me just for a minute. We'll wrap up the show. Stay tuned. We'll be right back with more. And I've got some less [01:03:00] words. States where we use oxygen for the power of

[01:03:03] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [01:03:03] good.

[01:03:07] Welcome back.

[01:03:08] Carl Lanore: [01:03:08] We're talking with Dr. David Nieman. We're talking about how exercise affects your immune system and it's a good thing. Exercise is a good thing, but too much of a good thing is never any good. We know that so. One of the things I wanted to mention. I want, I want your opinion on this as well.

[01:03:24] So social media has allowed us to peer into the lives of professional athletes and we become inspired. I want to do that, I want to do that, but you know, I'm Joe bag of donuts. I show up for work every morning. You know, I've got responsibilities, I've got mortgages, I've got all this sort of stuff, and I have a lot of stress in my life.

[01:03:45] Just normally. But then I go to the gym and I push myself, or I go to the track and I push myself or I go to CrossFit and I push myself. And a lot of us are probably doing ourselves a great disservice because we're looking at people who are sponsored [01:04:00] athletes, professional athletes. We're looking, these are people who literally, they get paid to train.

[01:04:05] And when you think about it, and we're looking at them and going, I want to aspire to do that. And we probably physically could if we had, we pulled ourselves out of our lives and dropped ourselves in their lives where they're, they have personal trainers and people who had guiding them with their nutrition and rehab opportunities and all this other stuff, but we don't have that.

[01:04:26] We show back up in the morning at work and do everything again. This, this, this has to be addressed I think in the communities because I think a lot of us are pushing ourselves way too hard. When we look at, we also lead very normal lives, which means a lot of responsibility, a lot of stress. What do you think?

[01:04:45] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [01:04:45] Yeah, I agree completely. Um, there, there are data that only one out of 2000 are genetically selected for high athletic endeavor in a particular sport, only one out of [01:05:00] 2000. And so. The vast majority of us will never get to that high level, no matter how hard we train, because we don't have the genetic endowment.

[01:05:11] And so what everybody has to be realistic, I think of the exercise more for your health rather than a performance at a high level performance. You know, all of us enjoy some races here and there and, but it, all of us need to learn to keep that under control. And find the sweet spot where your health has maintained and you still have the energy for your work and family life, et cetera.

[01:05:36] And I think what you just pointed out is I, many of these 50 athletes that have come to me, uh, are regular people with jobs and families that are trying to be super athletes on the side and everything adds up. It's a summation effect. Hi, physiologic stress from exercise, high mental stress from work, um, and then perhaps [01:06:00] some family issues.

[01:06:01] And then it all adds up and is more stressed than the immune system can handle. And then the person is down for the count. So, uh, I, I agree with you completely. Is, is we all need to realize our place and if we're fortunate enough to have the genetic endowment and can be sponsored to train hard. And then perform at a high level.

[01:06:22] So be it. That's great. But the vast majority of us don't have that opportunity.

[01:06:27] Carl Lanore: [01:06:27] You know, when I was training as a power lifter, I would come home and eat and then take a nap after my training. Yeah. That was the only way that I could do it. And luckily I had a job that allowed me to do that. Um, I would've, I would've never.

[01:06:45] And then I, and then I, I was militant about my sleep. In fact, that led to my divorce. I went to sleep, you know, I got up with the kids in the morning at five and I got them off to school, made their lunch, and I did all drove them to school. And so I felt like I had the right to go to sleep at night early because [01:07:00] I wanted that eight to nine hours of sleep cause I knew that's when my body was going to grow and recover.

[01:07:04] But religiously I took a nap. I would eat. And then I would doze off on the sofa for 20 or 30 minutes. It wasn't a lot. It wasn't like I'd go to sleep for the whole day, but I literally would doze off and wake up on my own and be refreshed and be ready. And that was because I felt in my head, I thought, my body wants to start recovering now, right after the routine.

[01:07:26] Now that the food is in me and I'm going to give it that, but you, if I couldn't do that, I wouldn't have gotten as strong as I did when I did. I believe that strongly.

[01:07:36] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [01:07:36] Well, the ancient Greek philosopher Plato observed and wrote that athletes in heavy training are sleepy creatures. And it's very true. Uh, you know, if you train so heavily and you're right on the edge, uh, you have to have that extra rest and sleep.

[01:07:57] And if you don't get it, you just can't put out.

[01:08:00] [01:08:00] Carl Lanore: [01:08:00] Dr Neiman, you were a wise man. I appreciate you being here today and, uh, and answering some of these questions.

[01:08:07] Dr. David Nieman DRPH: [01:08:07] Glad to be here. Take care.

[01:08:09] Carl Lanore: [01:08:09] And, uh, that's it for today's show. I'm going to. Change camera angles here for a second. And, uh, let's see. Tomorrow is Thursday.

[01:08:16] I know we have a show. We have some great shows coming up. Thanks to Elisa Profumo again, if you're friends with the Lisa Profumo, you can thank her for the content, uh, becoming more intriguing and an interesting, uh, because it's all her hard work. She's already got us booked up for the next two weeks. So anyway, I will see you tomorrow with more superhuman radio.

[01:08:35] If you can check out Facebook, come and visit us, live and be part of the audience. We'll put your questions up. Of course, share the podcast and uh, stay safe and stay a Corona virus free. We'll see you tomorrow. [01:09:00]