[00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to another episode of superhuman radio. We have a really really good show today. And I'm sorry for those of you who are listening to the podcast right now who are waiting on Facebook for Facebook live as usual be live. TV always throws something into the mix. I'm going to have to find another alternative.

[00:00:48] Maybe we'll ship to zoom or something like that. But hey, the audio podcast is the most easily consumable of all the podcasts and I predict the most listened to so we both know [00:01:00] we're always here with our Roots where we started this game 14 almost 14 years ago now anyway, so today's today's show is good because it's building on a foundation of discussions that we've had on this show over the past decade.

[00:01:15] About glyphosate. My guest today is name may sound familiar to you because she sounded really familiar to me. Carrie Gilliam. How you doing? Carrie?  I'm great. I'm great. Thanks for having me today and Kerry is a veteran investigative journalist. She's got like 25 years of experience covering corporate news.

[00:01:39] She didn't you work for Reuters for about 17 years. Writers from 1998 until 2015 that's like really like what a fruit for a journalist. That's like Oxford like Oh Yeah from Reuters. Oh, okay. But anyway, you authored a book recently. That's the subject of of this interview called whitewash the [00:02:00] story of a weed killer cancer and the corruption of Science and we're talking about something we talked about on the show for a very long time and that's glyphosate.

[00:02:10] But why before we even talk about what you've done what happened to you as a journalist when you had all these different stories in front of you that all of a sudden this one really really interested you there wasn't anything personal involved. Gosh, no, I mean I've covered many Industries. I was covering the banking industry for a long time in the 90s.

[00:02:32] And in 1998. Reuters asked me to move to Kansas and start researching and learning about genetically engineered crops Monsanto and just introduce these. And and to cover food and agriculture. So that was my job, you know to spend a lot of time with Monsanto and DOW and Dupont and farmers and you know agronomists and scientists and regulators and.

[00:02:55] So that's why I started doing and I didn't I had Roundup in my garage and I [00:03:00] spray it on my weed but I thought it was great. I mean, yeah, I thought this stuff was really interesting and at a great thing to see the world, right so, you know, but over the years as I spent more time with the companies and more time with farmers and scientists and I start paying attention to the scientific literature both about the environment.

[00:03:20] Impacts of this pesticide dependent agricultural system that Monsanto was pushing and others. I started seeing, you know, things didn't match up what you're hearing from. The company's wasn't matching with what was happening on the ground wasn't matching up with health impacts that we were starting to see and environmental impacts and I guess it just became a passion of mine to really follow this and write a lot about it.

[00:03:47] It's got me in a lot of trouble. There was just going to say. Doesn't like it I so so at some point in time you go from being a really thorough journalist tool to carry Gilliam. We don't invited to parties anymore. You know, [00:04:00] it's like like when did you start seeing push back and was pushed back internal to you know from the people you work for like, you know what maybe we shouldn't publish that yet or something like that.

[00:04:11] Oh, yeah, and you know, I'm not the only journalist I have, you know friends and colleagues and co-workers. I know the New York Times at Mother Jones that Bloomberg Politico people who have experienced similar pushback anybody who digs too deep who gets sort of too close to any sort of information that is going to upset the prophet agenda of these very big companies, Monsanto and particular.

[00:04:40] You're going to get them coming back at you and they certainly have done a lot to try to discredit me. When I was at Reuters. They spent a lot of time harassing my editors that you know, emails and meetings and you know, they didn't one of their specific arguments was they did not want me to report both [00:05:00] sides of an issue.

[00:05:00] They didn't want me to report about their critics because only their view only their science and only their message was the valid one and anyone else. Was was wrong and I shouldn't include those voices in any of my stories. So they you know, they created a lot of stress for a lot of they still are you know, you know, you know something I started saying many years ago on the show was the new evolutionary selection pressure is where you get your information from.

[00:05:32] The sources of information you choose will greatly impact your longevity and the longevity of your Offspring and what you just point out is a perfect example of that, you know, like the oh no, we want this science promoted. Not that science. It's very very sad, and it's really more harmful than people realize.

[00:05:52] So at what point in time did you say, you know, I because you've written a lot of [00:06:00] articles. That drove interviews on my show over the years you were the only one really writing about glyphosate in and most people would say or negative way, but it really a more objective way. Right. I think II was one of the only reporters may be the only reporter writing about concerns about glyphosate, you know, well more than a decade ago, you know, 15 20 years ago because science was showing concern now, I didn't write stories, you know saying this is we need to deep-six it and ban it.

[00:06:38] I was simply laying out the risks as well as the rewards we hear a lot of the rewards from the companies they. Yeah, they have marketing. They're out there pushing the stuff to Farmers, but you don't hear about the risks and that's I mean that as a journalist that's our job is to report the facts both sides so that there can be balanced [00:07:00] public policy and truly transparent, you know information for people to to contextualize and to take in as they make decisions about what they want to buy or what they want to use.

[00:07:12] Or what public policies they want to support so I just thought we really needed a More Level Playing Field. Monsanto was steamrolling over journalists and farmers and regulators and you know, so my work is not my opinion. My work is based on data and documents. I've obtained thousands of internal documents from the EPA USDA and FDA over the years and you see a real as.

[00:07:38] The title of my book you see a Corruption of the scientific process and certainly one Santa's not the only company to engage in this and glyphosate Roundup is not the only product but I considered a really good poster child. I guess a really good example because because yes because at every step at every step of.

[00:08:00] [00:08:00] Inquisition about their secret glyphosate their wonderful glyphosate, they would push back and say absolutely not it's completely safe. It's got a short half life in the soil first of all and it's completely safe and you could drink it and then some guy drank it and he died because because it's burnt out his gut basically and you know, it's like they pushed back like you couldn't they never even said we'll look into it.

[00:08:28] No, there was so cocksure that they would they were right that they just pushed right back. And when you look back at the document, you see back into the 70s and 80s and 90s. There were red flags. There were scientists. There were people within our own Environmental Protection Agency our regulatory agency our scientists there were saying.

[00:08:48] We are seeing red flags. We see concern with this chemical. We need to have some limits on we need to have stronger warning labels on what were they saying back then carry? Like what would what [00:09:00] would that look like they were saying I mean, that's what they were saying they come but I mean did they say look people were getting we're getting.

[00:09:06] Stories about people panic attack. Yeah, I mean they're very early on in 1983. Our EPA scientists were saying we're seeing a carcinogenic effects from these studies and Monsanto would push back and say you're wrong. You're not analyzing the study correctly. Let us. Tell you how to analyze the study and you see that you see the EPA scientists say we need a stronger warning label on this product among Senate say no we're not going to do it really over and over and over throughout the years pushback routinely and at the same time you see the company.

[00:09:44] Pushing for ever higher levels of this chemical to be allowed to be sprayed on our food products, you know, it's it was genius on their part. I mean, they made billions they've made billions and billions of dollars. Oh my God, and and it's not even just a weed killer anymore. They use it to [00:10:00] synchronize some crops right before they harvest them.

[00:10:02] So you get the mother lode of freshly splay spray glyphosate on wheat and a variety of other products that they do that with and so people don't even know about that. So, This did not even try to kill weeds are trying to kill the crop to speed up its maturity so they can Harvest and get a hundred percent of an acre.

[00:10:21] Instead of 60% of an acre. Yeah, and that's a very big issue. So it's not a lot of people think it's only used with genetically engineered crops and that's not even remotely true and it is sprayed as a desiccant as you described it to dry down and even out the crop ahead of harvest on oats and barley and wheat and a whole different array of crops that are not genetically engineered and it's actually I had a guy come on there's a company that's actually doing people's of glyphosate testing at home and we had them on.

[00:10:51] Go to create the creating a basis foundation for some research they want to do and he's the guy. Okay, he said o legumes [00:11:00] one of the highest sprayed crops. I'm like legumes are not genetically modified and then we started talking about the whole synchronization stand. I knew about the synchronization of wheat.

[00:11:09] I knew that years ago. I actually had a copy of the Monsanto page from the book that they used to give to Farmers. Like I had I talked about it on the show. It was yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they have a little glossy black brochure that they were handing out to Farmers and are still do I'm sure but but it's become a people because they do it shortly before Harvest and in foods that are not processed very heavily like oats for instance your oatmeal.

[00:11:37] They find very high levels of glyphosate residues and oatmeal products, including an oatmeal that you would feed two babies baby food only. So, you know, that's a real concern. We've seen some lawmakers try to introduce legislation to prohibit that many grain dealers grain handlers are now saying we're not going to take green if it's been desiccated.

[00:11:59] So [00:12:00] there is you know, some pushback canned goods are driving a push back on that good good good and and let's so there's people who audience go. I don't eat any of those things. Well, if your woman and use a tampon and it's a it's a pure cotton tampon. I got news for you. You're. Injecting glyphosate into your body.

[00:12:17] I wrote a blog post. How many was that four years ago that that study came out. I want to say environmental working group or somebody did it somebody like that did it and write they took they took off the shelf and they found you know, actual residual amounts of glyphosate in tampons. Well, but and that is of course because cotton has been genetically engineered to tolerate being sprayed directly over the top with glyphosate herbicides.

[00:12:42] And so you're going to have roasts and toasts in your garden, you know, it's really is everywhere there before we I'm going to move on to some other questions, but I just want to mention what a couple of things number one Germany. [00:13:00] I want to say it was Hamburg, but maybe I'm wrong did a study. Of women who lived in the city that didn't live out by the Farms of their breast milk you remember that study.

[00:13:12] They had glyphosate glyphosate in their blood and their breast milk, and these were women who lived in the. Yeah, I mean it's certainly it's not limited to farm country by any means. I'm glad to say residues traces of this weed killer are found in rainfall. Our government has found them in surface waters found in drinking water.

[00:13:34] It's you know foods that we could sit. I mean it is it is definitely a ubiquitous chemicals found in a large majority of people's urine people have your urine test. You don't have to be a farmer have this weed killer in. Do you remember the story about the South American sugar cane workers losing kidneys and what they discovered was [00:14:00] they were using glyphosate two days before and then they set the crops on fire to burn the dried.

[00:14:09] Big leaf away so they just have canes to chop out with their machetes. And and lo and behold like all these young guys were losing their kidneys their kid complete kidney failure. The whole town was like like their men were being vanquished and no one could figure it out. And then somebody put two and two together and said the residual glyphosate when it's burnt and they tested and it turns into some horrible horrible thing monsanto's opinion was it was never meant to be burnt which I can't disagree with them.

[00:14:39] To be honest with you on that one. I can't I be like, okay, you got me there you're right, but you know, they said no it's not supposed to be burnt. But God knows what else he could convert to. I mean, you know, the the the the the hard part for me. About all these discussions is no chemicals is always better than a little bit of [00:15:00] chemicals and people who whenever people would say or glyphosate is safe.

[00:15:03] I'd say I'll tell you what I'm gonna do for the next year. I'm going to come to your house first thing in the morning with a ring your doorbell. You should come to the door you stick your tongue out and put just one drop of glyphosate on your tongue just one and they'd be like, oh, that's absurd.

[00:15:16] That's stupid. Well, how do you know you're not consuming that much? Day to day already.  It's like if it's true, I'm sure to just do it frankly and put it on your tongue. Then why is it not absurd to consume it throughout the day and feed it to your family, too? Yeah, exactly. I mean and these are the things that scientists are wrestling with and it really is a debate right now what you're speaking about in terms of traces of these chemicals in our food in a dietary exposure occupational exposure is one where you're spraying it or you're being sprayed or you're in an area where it sprayed but but dietary exposure is all of those.

[00:15:55] It's our kids and our parents and our families and. There there are [00:16:00] many scientists who believe that these traces in our food to after day consent consuming. This can be very harmful. And in fact are harmful and are affecting reproductive health and women, but then of course you have you have the regulatory position in the industry position, which is no.

[00:16:16] These traces don't hurt you at all and no one is really doing any robust biomonitoring or testing to establish good science on this. It's you have scientists at Harvard and elsewhere who are trying to track and they're developing science, but you know it we're not there yet. And in the meantime, we're just allowing ever more of these chemicals into our food.

[00:16:39] So, you know people care about that they do need to to take some action or you know, let policymakers. How they feel about that because this is something that affects almost certainly and and was it a big deal for the for the World Health Organization to come out and say that it was a probable was a type 3 carcinogen or type [00:17:00] 2.

[00:17:00] They they said well to a to a classification probable human carcinogen and yeah, I mean these scientists these are the leading cancer scientists around the world who come together. They work as a unit of the World Health Organization and they. Different substances that are widely used in the environment that people are widely exposed to that may have a carcinogenic effect and they looked at glyphosate and the science they don't do any new science.

[00:17:27] They look at already established published peer-reviewed toxicology epidemiology mechanistic data. And then they give it a grade in essence or classification. And yeah, they determined and published in 2015 that like that was a probable human carcinogen and these scientists. I've talked to many of them, you know, they're from all around the world.

[00:17:47] They do this all the time. They've been arrested thousands of absences. Never did. They have a push back? Like they have for glyphosate Monsanto just went nuts and did their best spent I've [00:18:00] reported recently. We got some documents and some testimony that Monsanto earmarks 17 million dollars in one year alone to try to discredit these cancer scientists.

[00:18:13] Yeah, rather than being concerned about the science and looking to maybe adjust formulation for the warnings or yeah, they said there was some kind of discredit the sizes. They don't care. They don't care. So I'm going to make a prediction. Hopefully this podcast somebody will find a 200 years from today and listen to and go my God.

[00:18:34] That guy was right monsanto's gonna go out of business. They're struggling not to go out of business. They have taken such big hits in profits and it'll most of it is because of glyphosate glyphosate has emblazoned, Monsanto. With an aura that makes people refer to them as mon Satan. There's a reason people say that they say it because this [00:19:00] company.

[00:19:01] Has become the industrial version of evil they are they are they're driven to profits but their profits depend on them exposing the human race to chemicals that will forever alter our planet and our bodies and our longevity and everything else and it's not and you know people go half lives, you know, that's we don't know.

[00:19:26] We don't know how what this stuff will become once it's in the soil. We don't know what it what is it becoming when it's in the air that this stuff goes up folks. It goes pop. It's in it's in the real. What about that? Carrie? What about. Well, what about all of that that I know I know come on. I want to share a quote because I think it's what you said, they don't care and you know, people say, oh it's just month.

[00:19:54] It was just these activists crazy people out there who you know are manipulating the truth [00:20:00] to try to attack us the judge in the most recent trials around up cancer trial. This is a federal judge. He was appointed by the Obama Administration. Vince chabria who's overseeing this he looked at all of the evidence, of course in this most recent trial.

[00:20:16] And it was very hard on the planets. He he made a very big hill for them to climb and gave Monsanto every break he could but at the end of the day, he said this he said there is strong evidence from which a jury could conclude that Monsanto does not particularly care whether its product is in fact giving people cancer focusing instead on manipulating public opinion and undermining anyone who raises genuine and legitimate.

[00:20:42] Wow, the issue, you know, this is a federal judge and. He said that last month and we had a prior judge last last year in California who said pretty much the same thing. The evidence is overwhelming that this company has manipulated the scientific record and pressured Regulators around the world.

[00:21:00] [00:21:00] To push the safety message for this product. And again, it's bigger than Monsanto and this one product. This is emblematic of where we are today at least in the United States and to a good degree in Europe and many other countries were corporate power. The corporate greed is taking priority over public health and environmental health and isn't it funny that nobody nobody on any side of the fence is talking about this this this this and any of the discussions about what they're going to bring to the table.

[00:21:33] It's going to help America and help the planet, you know, we we forget that. The destruction of our climate or and and the quality of our air is greatly impacted by the hundreds of millions of pounds of chemical herbicides and pesticides sprayed on crops around the globe. You never hear about father you oh my God, you know about fossil fuel [00:22:00] fossil fuel.

[00:22:00] That's the reason for all the season. No, listen don't think that these chemicals aren't going up and causing problems and they are. They are I mean what we're finding is that you really can't what was the thing? You can't fool Mother Nature. You can't outwit mother nature and what is happening with these this chemical over youth?

[00:22:23] It's just a degradation of soil Health. We're losing beneficial microbes in the soil, which is affecting plant help Weaver becoming resistant to the herbicide that Monsanto has been selling. So we're seeing an overrun over a hundred million Acres now of so-called super weeds. We're seeing insects develop resistance to the insecticides of the companies have been selling so.

[00:22:47] What the chemical companies are doing is to continue to try to challenge Mother Nature is they're trying to pour more and more and more chemicals on the Weeds on the insects because the soil is becoming sort [00:23:00] of stagnant and neutralize their trying to load it up with nitrogen and more fertilizer and.

[00:23:06] It's just this treadmill this this race to you. No more poison water more poison are as you're saying contributing to climate climate change. We were not we're not engaging in a sustainable food production system at the current at the current rate and know what whitewashes about is really just trying to get people to awaken to the problems that we've created with this pesticide dependency system.

[00:23:35] If people go to the website carry Gilliam CA RR e YG I ll a m.com. You can see where you can get a copy of whitewash. Everybody really needs to read it. You know why I've been talking and you've been talking even longer about this chemical and it just doesn't go away, you know things that are farcical things that really don't hold any water.

[00:23:55] They eventually go away because the rigors of Science and everybody kind of [00:24:00] goes. Oh, we were wrong about that. Glyphosate has been sticking around for a long time. I want to take a break and when we come back, I want to talk about from your research. Is there is there any direct mechanism of action that seems to be leading to the diseases that glyphosate exposure seems.

[00:24:22] Predict stay tuned. We'll be right back with more superhuman radio. Welcome back were talking with Terry Gilliam a website is Carrie Gilliam.com. CA R ey G IL L am.com. You can learn more about her articles things. She's done over the past decade or more as it relates to glyphosate and others speaking of others.

[00:24:41] Carry following glyphosate is closely as you have you have to know this probably. A couple other ones waiting in the wings that fit this description. I get it that glyphosate seems to have become the lightning rod, but there are others right. Other chemicals. Yeah there ya go. [00:25:00] Definitely one thing I want to correct the spelling of my name if people do want to get something going.

[00:25:05] I did I do wrong only one RCA re y so Carrie I am so sorry like you care about something with the white Terry Gilliam.com. No, thank you for mentioning that so yeah, I mean definitely will chlorpyrifos is another it's an insecticide pushed by Dow Chemical that is used on a lot of fruits and vegetables.

[00:25:26] Very commonly used again in food production RSD a found it to be the 11th most prevalent pesticide found in our Foods last year. The Year prior was the fourth. The reason we care about it is because it's shown by a wide body of evidence to be neurodevelopmental a damaging to young children to actually affect their brain function.

[00:25:51] Both is in mothers who are carrying the children in utero and. Make children are very young and you know, you're [00:26:00] exposed to in the diet as homeless children are exposed. So it's so dangerous. It's been banned from household. Do you think it was just scheduled to be banned in 2017 from all agricultural use, but the Trump Administration came in Dow Chemical gave a million dollars to Trump's inaugural fund and had a sit-down meeting and the band went away that's settled.

[00:26:25] Yeah, yeah, a federal court has ordered the EPA to go ahead and Banette the EPA has refused so they are in a bit of a standoff at the present time. How can the EPA refuse either we are a nation of laws and we're not. Or is it just a nation of laws that apply to some people sometimes I mean, you know look Congress has asked for Trump's tax returns with the IRS isn't given him over.

[00:26:51] I mean there are a lot of things that well that's default under this category. That's different. That's good. Yeah, the EPA was ordered to go [00:27:00] ahead and ban this chemical and they have not done it. What about 2 4 D. Remember all the to 4D was one of the components in agent orange. Correct, Jordi and dioxin is some like that and so.

[00:27:12] When all the pushback on glyphosate happened and people started getting wise didn't they try to reintroduce to 4D and make genetically modified crops, that would be genetically modified to resist exposure to to 4D. Exactly because glyphosate is become so ineffective now with weeds because the weeds have become resistant to it.

[00:27:33] Yeah, it's called Evolution the industry's answer. The industry's answer is well, let's just develop genetically engineered crops that not only you can spray directly with glyphosate, but you can also add in 240. For glyphosate and dicamba another herbicide another older dangerous herbicide. So you now yes have genetically engineered crops that you can spray with all of these different chemicals.

[00:28:00] [00:27:59] And in fact, our fact our government has some of the internal documents that I got expecting, you know, a hundredfold increase in the amount of 2 4 D that we're going to be finding in our in our food. Oh my God. That gives me a sense of anxiety because here's the truth folks. Even if you go to the extent of buying organic, you still go out to restaurants.

[00:28:27] You still you you can't live in a bubble. And at this time plus this stuff is in the air it gets on other things. It's a it's like people think that it doesn't because I remember they were crops that were weren't sprayed when they test them they were because the farmer six miles up the road was spraying.

[00:28:48] Right. So yeah. Yeah, it's again. This is sort of a vicious cycle and in the short term the companies are winning the day by saying to [00:29:00] these Farmers just keep spraying more chemicals will just keep giving you more combinations of chemicals and you just keep using them and we'll keep trying to figure out more combinations, but it's not sustainable and.

[00:29:13] We do thankfully have a large number of farmers and food companies and others who are realizing this isn't sustainable. There's even a division in the EPA that is trying to promote more Organic Solutions. USDA is putting forward a tiny bit of money for some research into more traditional time-honored practices, like cover crops and rotating crops and other things that can be done to go through.

[00:29:42] In a healthy way, that's sustainable that's better for the soil that's better for the are better for the animals who eat the grains better for people who eat the food the corporate system doesn't really like that because they don't get to sell a lot of special seeds and chemicals. But you know, there is a [00:30:00] movement that is well underway, and that gives us hope I guess if we are concerned about these issues.

[00:30:07] You know, it's really an interesting dichotomy when you look at farming.  and when you look at food.  and the players in between and the poor farmers are broke farmers are losing their health and suicide rates did farm and farm communities today is up big time because people are losing. Homes that have been there's four generations Farms that have been they feel like they've let their their their their ancestors.

[00:30:39] Is that right backwards? Is it ancestors? Yeah down, you know, it's like and and so the farmers are making any money and here's the irony about the chemical agriculture lie. I think it was Washington State University. We did a show that showed that. [00:31:00] Genetically modified crops produce a smidgen more per acre like the equivalent of a bushel.

[00:31:11] Of soybeans per acre more than conventionally grown, but at an expense of twice the price and that's the big lie. Yeah, you get a few extra bushels an acre. But it cost you twice as much money to produce that acre than it does for conventional and these poor farmers are going broke. They can't stay on they can't do it anymore.

[00:31:36] Yeah, I I dedicated my book whitewash to Farmers. I when I was first assigned a farming I thought oh my God, how awful is this going to be right? What a boring industry and who cares about it. I've got the banking industry. The best ever right? But I as I write in the book I come I've come to have such an appreciation for farmers and I've been literally in thousands of farm [00:32:00] fields from West Coast to East and all through the Midwest and the Prima the Heartland because as you say so they can do everything right they can.

[00:32:09] Spend all the money that they have in the world on the very best seeds and all the techniques and tractors and and be the most efficient possible and water use and they can do everything exactly perfectly. And mother nature of income and you know with an April freeze, you know our hail storm or tornado can roll through Kansas and and their work is gone, you know for the entire season livestock or wiped out the farmers put so much at risk and work so hard to feed us all and the profits that they make if they make profits are so thin just razor-thin the prophets are really seen by those companies higher up the food chain.

[00:32:51] And yet the farmers do this year after year and toil away and 12 away and Anna. It's really about more than money for them. It's about you know, love for the land [00:33:00] and tradition. And as you said sort of An ancestry and you have to have profound respect for them and when so when these companies come in as Monsanto did and said we have a.

[00:33:12] Bullet, we have met magic system for you this round the British system with these crops that you can just spray. It'll save you all this time and effort. You won't have to tell your ground just save money and Fuel and the farmers and loved it. I mean for them it was it was, you know, a dramatic shift in what they had been doing and.

[00:33:33] It was unfortunate that it didn't work out very well for any of us, you know, but they really did buy into this in a genuine way believing that this was going to make things better. I quote one guy in my book. It says, you know these these companies are like drug dealers. They got these Farmers hook.

[00:33:53] And now they don't know how to unwind it. They don't know how to get off of this treadmill. Well, there is there is a [00:34:00] movement but the problem is that the movement is is actually not going to move as fast as it needs to be because every day Farmers go out of business, but they don't you know, we food farm to table has taken some really aggressive.

[00:34:19] Runs forward in the past five or six years because we have more coops. We have cities that have four or five or six coops. Now where you can do business directly with your farmer, you know, if they would just take their foot off of raw milk and let it Let It Grow these there's a lot of farmers out there that would be able to get, you know, nine dollars a gallon for their milk instead of selling it to a consolidator for you know for 60 cents a gallon.

[00:34:47] So the real problem is we need more Farm. We need more of those. We need more of those Farm to Table relationships in every city.  I think we need there so many different things we need [00:35:00] obviously and what would be great would be policy changes in Washington DC. We have a paradigm right now that supports and rewards those practices in farm country that most support and reward.

[00:35:14] Monsanto and their intentions and downed upon all of those big companies and cell disease. We have Farm subsidies for corn for instance grow corn every year more corn and more corn work or and why because that's how these companies make money. We don't need more corn in this in this world. We have over a billion bushels of corn every year in the United States that we can't figure out what to do with the USDA calculate those numbers or of ending stocks is what they call.

[00:35:43] We put them in storage. We can't burn in for ethanol. We can't see them to livestock, but we have too much corn and yet we continue to subsidize. Growing corn it's ludicrous. So we really need those changes in Washington DC to start funneling money where it really should [00:36:00] be going and we need to get corporate money out of Washington.

[00:36:03] We need to get the corporate lobbying and campaign donations and all of that need a shift in that because until we do they're going to continue to run the show see and and I'm on the other side of the spectrum. I'm on the we vote with our dollars dailies out of the spectrum. I don't believe government is ever going to fix anything you who are obviously you're younger than me.

[00:36:28] You're much more optimistic than me. You know you like. Oh people are good. I'm at that point in my life where yeah, some people are okay and that's how I feel about it. I look at it differently. I think you know, we do shows like this if we get five people who listen to this show to change the way they buy their produce and start doing business with a local farmer.

[00:36:48] Because if people stop consuming something then Kroger sends it back to the manufacturer and the manufacturer goes. Wow, why you send it all this [00:37:00] stuff back when nobody bought it and then they put ears on the ground and they start doing you know, focus groups and well now we really don't like that.

[00:37:08] It has high fructose corn syrup in it. Oh, okay. Now in the case of high fructose corn syrup. They manipulated the FDA allowed them to call it six other things. So they. Sucker people but you know they had to do something to get the words off their label. I think that in combination with what you're talking about and getting government to stop subsidizing these stupid crops that they literally just blowing our tax money on at the same time people must change their buying habits so that there's a vacuum created by the Poland the push.

[00:37:41] And so it's it I kind of feel like people may have better success. At making decisions that affect Monsanto then the government making them do something different because my opinion is they are they are conjoined twins and they share a heart [00:38:00] and if you want to cut them in half one of them has to die and government's not going to die and industries not going to die.

[00:38:06] So we need to change the way we buy things. Well indefinitely, I mean it is it certainly is not just one strategy. I mean people need to as you said vote with their pocketbook. I think they also need to vote with food policy in mind. We always we have elections coming up now and we hear all you know, foreign policy and health care, you know, those are all legitimate issues, but.

[00:38:27] Do we ever talk about food policy? What if they never they never do what they never do what they're going to say anyway and 2008 we heard we heard a bright senator from Chicago say that he was going to label GMO food because we deserve to know what we were eating and and man the GMOs went crazy over that and it went away.

[00:38:46] Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Don't nobody nobody. Nobody keeps their promises today anymore. Nobody. It doesn't matter in area any area of Life pic it tell me about. The nonprofit. [00:39:00] That you're the director for the u.s. Right to know. What's the mission of the nonprofit? Yeah. Well, so I left orders at the end of 2015 wrote my book and became co-director of this nonprofit were really little we are really poor.

[00:39:16] But the main the main agenda is to focus on Food Matters food issues food policy and Agriculture and just do Freedom of Information Act request to academic. EPA USDA FDA Center for Disease Control, we're trying to get the data and the documents that our government and our universities don't want you to see that pertain to food policy and our health.

[00:39:43] And we're and we get those documents. I've had to sue the EPA twice. I've through the FDA once we get those documents and we put them on our website. We share them with journalists and lawyers and people all over the world for free just so that we can try to have help the public be better [00:40:00] informed and better educated and.

[00:40:01] Dale University professors contact me and say they're using our stuff and in their instructions and classrooms and we're just trying to again level the playing field. These big corporations have so much money and so much power and a big megaphone to blast out their messages about their products and we're just trying to show the other side.

[00:40:22] I guess not anecdotally, but actually in hard data. I want to take our last commercial break when we come back. I want to talk to you about what glyphosate may be doing to the population. I'm sure that you've seen all the science and you have but you have some of your own 9 to 10 dots to connect to stay tuned.

[00:40:40] We'll be right back. We're talking with Carrie Gilliam. Her book is whitewash the story of a weed killer cancer and the corruption of science. You want to follow her on Twitter. It's at carry Gilliam caare why? G IL L am I got it right that [00:41:00] time Karen how you did things how to really think hard? I really really did that's so what do you think is going on with with glyphosate?

[00:41:06] I mean you see it all and you've looked at it from every different angle in your gut. What do you think is going on?

[00:41:15] Was that a good Segway or what do I think it causes cancer? Do I think it affects fertility. Do I think I mean there are many different well, but how is it doing that? What do you think it's doing to us? I mean Samsung Samsung as you know, his opinion is that it's a synthetic Glycine and and that that sounds plausible.

[00:41:33] I mean from molecular standpoint, but is that really all it is? I think they're definitely a science is that you know, you're talking to a journalist here. I'm not a scientist. So I'm not going to weigh in with a scientist, you know pretend that I have scientific expertise out there. I am an observer and I am bringing you facts, right?

[00:41:51] So what you see out there is definitely a weight of evidence that shows that this has potential to be carcinogenic which [00:42:00] the ramifications of that are seen predominantly and different varieties of non-hodgkin lymphoma. We've also seen acute myeloid leukemia science point to a connection there.

[00:42:12] You've seen that the Sciences from Harvard who looked at it and have seen some impacts. You've seen different scientists tie it to low birth weights women with higher levels of glyphosate in their urine are having. Birth outcomes like lower birth weights shorter gestation that sort of thing and you mentioned the the science from Anthony and Stephanie and they Samsung Stephanie sent us they and some other scientists have formulated, you know, a theory or feces that it affects because because glyphosate is designed to impact sort of the.

[00:42:50] Shikimate pathway this enzymatic process and a plant and they've always said it can't happen in people or pets because you don't have this enzyme in people [00:43:00] and animals, but you do actually have this in your bacteria in your gut bacteria. And so they're finding evidence that what this does is it messes up or can mess up your Healthy gut bacteria and when you do that you really there is the potential to really screw around with your health because we don't necessarily realize how important that intestinal bacteria is, but it has to do with the health of our immune system and brain functions so many different things so, you know, there are definitely people there's a lawsuit actually that was filed.

[00:43:34] Nah. To in February alleging that people are being damaged in this way through the attack on the intestinal bacteria of humans because of glyphosate exposure. So innocent that is true if that is really happening. Then the whole range of illnesses and disease can be tied Parkinson Parkinson's disease was just tied to and too well-done studies.

[00:43:58] It's a disease with tied [00:44:00] to changes in the gut microbe microbial. Right now autism is being linked to the gut and we know anybody who knows an autistic child knows that they have food sensitivity. There's Foods they'll eat those Foods. They won't and they always have stomach distress these poor kid.

[00:44:17] Yeah, and so and it's not only that it's you know depression obesity. I mean, it just it's screws up your system if your system is screwed up, you know, they can it can manifest in a whole array of things. But I do think it's important to point out. I do this in my book. I like to play it all the time.

[00:44:34] It's not just glyphosate and and this is part of the problem with scientific research and establishing a clear causal connection to disease. We're not in the real world out here. Just exposed to one chemicals. Time we're living in a toxic soup right now of the whole array of these pesticides and other environmental contaminants and when you mix all those up in our system and you have this constant [00:45:00] exposure like we do, You know, what?

[00:45:02] Do you expect expect to be very healthy. So we need to Target the big ones like why is this a most widely used herbicide in the world used in over a hundred different food crops sprayed directly on things like oatmeal. That's who's very important, but we certainly cannot think that if we make like to say go away than everything is fine.

[00:45:24] Yeah. This is scary. You know, this is a lot scarier than. A lot of things that people talk about all day long and it's and it and I mean, it's just it's and it's so passive. It's so passive and maybe that's why nobody pays attention. Nobody's really scared about it because it's so passive. You don't know your succumbing to it because you're eating a little bit every single day.

[00:45:48] When did we decide chemicals with good for humans? I want I wish I would have been at that meeting. Listen. I want to thank you so much for taking time to come on the show. The book is whitewash the story. Of a weed killer [00:46:00] cancer and the corruption of science. You can go to carries website its CA R ey G IL L am.com one are and also check out u.s.

[00:46:11] Rtk dot-org the u.s. Right to know website. And who knows maybe you have being a super sleuth in you and you can discover something that will help. Lots of people like Kerry is doing thanks so much for being on the show. Thanks for having me. Take care. And that's it for today. That's all we got.

[00:46:30] We're going to say. Goodbye tomorrow. We do have let me see to so tomorrow's Thursday. We have the ReNew Life RX show. And then this Friday we have the pep talk with doctor. Carl page, I think we're going to be talking about thymosin beta for kind of going to go over it again from scratch so that everybody knows exactly what it does what it is and how to use it.

[00:46:56] So that will be this Friday. Okay. Take care. See you [00:47:00] then.