[00:00:00] [00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of superhuman radio. Today is September 9th 2019 and we are doing this show Under The Heading of dispelling or busting some myths there certain myths that just perpetuate they just keep coming back around over and over again and they frustrate the hell out of me because you know, I kind of feel like you have to build on knowledge in order to go further and if we keep repeating these other things over and over again, it's like we're at a standstill and since this is nutrition-related.

[00:00:30] I thought who better to have on the show then dr. Jose Antonio of the international Society of sports nutritionist. How you doing? Doc Antonio,

[00:00:43] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:00:43] you know, I am doing great. I'm in South Florida the weather's beautiful. You know, I can't complain. We're in Paradise down.

[00:00:49] Carl Lanore: [00:00:49] Yeah, and I know and I was just in Boca not too long ago.

[00:00:51] It's just it really is beautiful and power and then Florida I said that was a Freudian slip I said, it really is beautiful in paradise. And then [00:01:00] I think so, you know you deal with a much higher level of individual within your Association. These are people who already have a basic fundamental.

[00:01:12] Knowledge of nutrition in general and and even more advanced than the average nutritionist because your style of nutrition is is highly goal-oriented and nutrition how nutrition affects the body in certain ways and you have to get frustrated to sometimes or it has to do you just ignore it? When you see these myths perpetuated.

[00:01:36] Do you even jump in and say anything in the world? You just go all out. You can't change the world.

[00:01:40] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:01:40] You know, what's funny? Is that going back to and I'm sure you're a bit of a history buff. First time. I heard that protein was bad for you and I'm gonna focus at least initially on the protein is bad for your kidneys because that's what we hear a lot of fun.

[00:01:58] Was that back in my undergraduate [00:02:00] days at the American University? And this was when Ronald Reagan was President, so just think of that how long right so so today's kids don't eat. They're like who's Ronald Reagan? So that's how long ago it was right and I remember her saying basically that, you know, all this protein that bodybuilders consume.

[00:02:18] It's bad for you etcetera Etc. Despite the fact that I was still a dumb college student, but at the same time I had one of my own uncle's was a bodybuilder and I watched him consume a lot of protein and he sure seemed healthy to me. I didn't see anything wrong in a and just sort of just by observing people.

[00:02:37] You're like, okay, there's a clear disconnect between what athletes are doing and what clinical nutritionist are saying and only one of them is right and I cited in my very night way. I'm like well. My uncle is in great shape. He's healthy. He eats a lot of protein I think proteins fine and and and in addition to that the fact that there just wasn't any data that shows [00:03:00] harmful.

[00:03:00] So so that's, you know, a little bit of History lesson, it goes way back when but in answer to your question. I actually find it sort of amusing at times kind of frustrating but. In a way, this is what makes this category interesting is that you really have a lot of idiots out there

[00:03:16] Carl Lanore: [00:03:16] you really do

[00:03:17] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:03:17] and and you know, I I'll send post to my friend.

[00:03:20] I'm like, hey, look what this person saying. They actually do they actually believe this in at the end of the day, you're like, wow, they actually do believe this and that's what's so funny. It's it's like Flat Earth Society and Bigfoot combined, but it's in nutrition. So, It's frustrating a little bit, but I can oh I get a good laugh out of it.

[00:03:38] I really do and I do

[00:03:39] Carl Lanore: [00:03:39] want to funds to part of the problem. Since you said historian part of the problem is that we don't on average in any capacity in our lives build on what we already know, you know, when we look at nutrition in general, we really don't know anything about three or four hundred years ago how [00:04:00] or even leading up into The Agrarian era is like, you know, It took the whole paleo movement to stop to go.

[00:04:06] Hey, wait a minute. Maybe we eight different back then and excuse me, when you look at the fathers of physical culture the guys who, you know Bernard McFadden and and even Eugene Sandow who was nominated to have a role in in the British government overseeing Health above and beyond doctors that really pissed the doctors off because they were like, He knows about help.

[00:04:32] Look at this guy. We they knew that nutrition played a large role and health longevity and strength and so much so I jokingly say, you know, the the guards that that guard the king and queen of England are called beefeaters for a reason it's not because they drink beefeaters gin. It's because they fed these guys beef to keep them big and strong so that they could [00:05:00] defend the castle.

[00:05:01] Right,

[00:05:02] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:05:02] right. Exactly. No it is it and probably you know, the frustrating part on my end is is not what I call the social media experts, you know, everyone's now an excerpt because they have access to Google. It's really the people who should know better. These are the train people with master's degrees in nutrition who are oftentimes the ones who are most guilty of saying hey, you know, if he too much protein is bad for you, I mean.

[00:05:27] I can go on Instagram and I could easily find someone with a master's degree in nutrition telling us how you know, we need to eat more plants because eating too much meat is bad for you. It's bad for your kidneys and it's just horseshit. Can I see that?

[00:05:40] Carl Lanore: [00:05:40] Yeah. Yeah, not that that's that's a easy word.

[00:05:44] That's no big deal. Okay. Yeah,

[00:05:45] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:05:45] that's not one of those seven dirty words. Yeah,

[00:05:47] Carl Lanore: [00:05:47] you know know that Carlos look like yeah, exactly. Yeah you

[00:05:52] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:05:52] and I know the 7 during

[00:05:53] Carl Lanore: [00:05:53] I know I was just thinking I was just thinking that it's like oh my god. Well, we getting to that point where we say jokes and no one knows it it means because [00:06:00] they're they're too young.

[00:06:01] Yeah, so, okay. So let's start dispelling these. Let's get this one first because this is the one that I see over and over again and I shared with you off the air. I posted a picture of a protein drink and I said, you know, this is my whole meal 70 grams of protein and someone put. Isn't that too much protein?

[00:06:22] You can't digest and they didn't ask the question. They said it authoritatively they said you really can't digest more than 30 grams of protein in a meal and I've heard this over the years so many times that it makes my head want to explode so let's hit that one. First. Go ahead.

[00:06:39] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:06:39] Okay. Okay, there's so many aspects of this.

[00:06:41] That's actually interesting. So 70 grams. How many cows. That's 300. Am I doing my math 320 calories

[00:06:48] Carl Lanore: [00:06:48] while there was some fat in it but it was it was actually a 500 calorie drink, but okay,

[00:06:53] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:06:53] so so it's actually a rather small meal when you think of it in terms of total calories. It's a small meal.

[00:06:59] Okay. So [00:07:00] so that's number one number two. Okay 70 grams. That's let's first address the you can't consume or is it you can absorb more than 30 ish or 40 gram right? I'm gonna I'm gonna backtrack a little and talk a. Little bit about evolutionary biology and so it sort of stay with me a little if you remember before the the Agricultural Revolution, I was about 10,000 years ago humans were basically nomadic Hunter seriously, they hunt they killed the eighth they eat.

[00:07:27] So there were periods of obviously starvation and periods of eating a lot periods of gluttony are gorging. So imagine you have not consume food for a day, maybe two you are hungry as hell. So you and your caveman Buddies go out hunting you kill a deer. You think one guy said to the other? Hey, you know what don't eat more than 30 grams because your body can't handle it.

[00:07:48] I know you're starving the human body has this amazing ability that if you're starving you're going to eat a hell of a lot more than 30 grams of protein. Why because your body will always utilize it and I think that's the issue [00:08:00] people utilize they always yeah, it's question of utilization. You will use more than 30 hell you probably would use more than a hundred depending on the size of your body now.

[00:08:10] Does it all go to muscle billion and I think this is where things get really fuzzy because in our category, even the Sports Nutrition scientist tend to view this as a bodybuilding issue when in fact. There's x amount of protein that could be used for gaining lean mass. But the rest of it could still be oxidized as fuel your body will use it.

[00:08:28] It's not like, you know, as you were saying if you ate like a 16-ounce steak, are you going to crap out?

[00:08:34] Carl Lanore: [00:08:34] Yeah, that's exactly so I'm crude and I'm a critical thinker and I am automatically come back with well. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever eaten a pound of steak? Yes, I have have you ever been crapped out whole undigested steak?

[00:08:48] No I have so then your body is. Using its own. Alright. Yeah,

[00:08:53] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:08:53] that's too obvious.

[00:08:56] Carl Lanore: [00:08:56] So and now but there's but let's stay with this for a second. So [00:09:00] protein can be used as an energy substrate. Correct? Yes. Okay. So your body will use that as energy protein also can be used for other types of tissue repair besides muscle, right?

[00:09:13] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:09:13] Well,

[00:09:14] Carl Lanore: [00:09:14] you

[00:09:14] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:09:14] know, I think people tend to forget if you were to remove water and fat from your body. Your body is basically all protein whether it's in your brain and your organs and your skin is it's it's not just skeletal muscle because people always focus on muscle when in fact the rest of your body has to generate protein whether it's in blood whether it's an enzymes whether its regulatory proteins, it's not all skeletal muscle.

[00:09:37] I think I think there's the bodybuilding industry I think has been good in terms of saying, you know, we need more protein particularly if you're training. But at the same time it has really kind of gives a warped view of what protein does because it does so many things besides contributing amino acids for gaining lean mass.

[00:09:55] I mean that's not the end all and be all to Athletics. In fact, you could argue [00:10:00] that endurance athletes might need more because they beat the hell out of their bodies probably more so than people who lift. I mean imagine someone who who is running a hundred a hundred twenty miles away. That body's getting beat I mean just to recover they probably would might need more protein than someone who just lifts.

[00:10:18] Carl Lanore: [00:10:18] So so let's let's underscore this discussion for a second and then we're going to move on to something that's actually quite tangential to this. So really where this whole 30 gram or 40 gram number came from was the the peak. Protein synthetic response from a single dose of protein and correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of who I don't know if it was done lyman's group but or lame and I don't know how you pronounce his last name pop up in Illinois.

[00:10:49] Yeah, but someone did a study where they said 15 grams of protein. We see this protein receptor response synthetic. 20 [00:11:00] 25 30 35 40 feet and they said oh once we got to 40 really having 50 or 60 or 70 didn't really signal mtor any greater degree. So the the lowest effective dose is 40 grams or 30 grams.

[00:11:15] Isn't that where that number came from originally

[00:11:18] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:11:18] right. But again, it's focusing on the muscle protein synthesis response team. Okay, so is that all protein does for your body? We're just muscle protein synthesis. What about the rest of your body? And I think that's what's confusing to people because they tend to again look at everything through bodybuilding when in fact there's a whole world out there in terms of nutrition and what your body needs besides pure bodybuilding now, you know, so, you know, so when people say well if I 200 grams 1 then clearly I'm wasting 60 grams though.

[00:11:48] You're still you're still utilizing the 60 and in fact. This is what's interesting. And I know you're well aware of this when you look at the nutrition the typical nutrition advice. [00:12:00] If you if you look at the three macros carbs fat protein, why is it that people are so bent on in terms of limiting protein?

[00:12:09] You're like you hit Protein. That's it. Stop right there, but you don't see the same attitude towards carbs and fat. It's always protein which always which I always found really odd because when you think about. How many how many people expend so much energy that they need to consume a lot of carbs, maybe a few distance cyclists, maybe if you distance Runners, but the average person working out.

[00:12:31] They don't expend enough energy to matter. I mean if you go to the gym and lift for 45 minutes to an hour, you're really not expecting that much energy, you know, your your glycogen to plead a little bit but a regular diet will replace that. So when you think about it, there are very few athletes that needs this high carb diet when I say high carb, we're talking 65 or 70 percent carbs.

[00:12:51] Most people actually should err on the side of getting more protein and then backfilling their diet on carbs and fat because most of us don't expend enough energy. 

[00:13:00] [00:13:01] Carl Lanore: [00:13:01] That's a great point. I actually think this comes from back in the day thousands of years ago when feeding populations with. And so, you know grains and bread became storage food it became it'll keep you alive, but you're not going to thrive on it and brother team was harder to come by but protein was fed to the the Army's to keep the these guys who are doing battle strong and healthy and robust.

[00:13:29] And so I really think that's where somehow the idea that oh too much protein is no good because I think there was a message. From the ruling class that you know only we Elite get the protein you guys eat bread. I mean look at our prayers give us our daily bread. It's I nobody said give us a daily beef and bread because we were poor purrs.

[00:13:49] We were poor. What we had was red.

[00:13:51] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:13:51] Yeah, you're absolutely right protein is expensive and for you think about this for the masks vast majority of human history. [00:14:00] Once we figured out how to grow plants. It's like okay we can eat plants now because we don't have to move around. It's a lot more difficult to chase an animal down and kill it than it is to figure out how to grow plants.

[00:14:10] So yeah, I think there's that there's that economic issue that you know that must that massages this debate.

[00:14:16] Carl Lanore: [00:14:16] Yes. So now we go right to the next topic. So there are lots of people out there who are now vegan athletes. And they're saying hey plant protein is just as effective. You've got soy has has a high leucine you have pea protein has fairly high leucine, but none of the plant protein seem to have the complete amino acid profile.

[00:14:36] That's a dairy eggs or fish or meat have so is is plant protein as. As high quality as animal-based proteins in your opinion.

[00:14:50] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:14:50] Yes, there's there's a couple ways to look at this one. When you look at some of the and again focus on muscle protein synthesis, when you look at the studies comparing plant-based proteins, [00:15:00] and usually it's soy versus usually milk based protein.

[00:15:03] So usually whey protein head-to-head whey protein does better than soy, okay, so that's one thing and again, we're looking acute studies. However humans don't just eat one meal a day. They eat multiple meals a day. So when you look at total protein intake, if you're on that what I call a low-protein diet and to me low is anything and again Milo is probably what some people's high as but Milo is anything below 1.75.

[00:15:29] If your lesson one point seven five grams per kilo protein quality matters a lot. And I think that's where most people are. However if you're on a high protein diet, let's say it's over it's over a gram per pound or two point two grams per kilo. Because you're eating such a large volume of protein you can actually mess around with using lower quality protein.

[00:15:49] Why because you're just making up for it with volume. And in fact the we did a two-year follow-up of bodybuilders eating up to 3.5 grams per day of [00:16:00] protein and a lot of it came from different sources. I mean really the main source was actually shakes. They would just consume a lot of steak. So so a lot of it is if you're on the low end of protein intake.

[00:16:11] Quality matters if you're just consuming a Gaba protein while you're just making up for it just because you have so much volume going on.

[00:16:18] Carl Lanore: [00:16:18] So the so if you're if you're mixing your protein sources, then plant protein probably isn't a big issue, especially if you're doing that in concert with eating a relatively high protein diet higher than the RDA of 60 grams a day.

[00:16:35] So then mixing your protein sources is good. But if you're strictly a vegan and all you're eating is plant protein, do you think it's as effective if that's all you're eating is plant protein.

[00:16:46] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:16:46] I think it you know what I but it's like is it doable? Yes, is it difficult? Yes, we've had I'd say hundreds of athletes come through our lab and I'd say we had one vegan bodybuilder, [00:17:00] okay.

[00:17:00] So for him clearly proteins an issue and the only way he hits his protein intake is by consuming like half-dozen shakes a day. I mean a half does

[00:17:10] Carl Lanore: [00:17:10] but these are these plant protein based. Yes as well.

[00:17:13] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:17:13] Yeah, he's yeah, and so that's the only thing that if he didn't do any shakes. I'm not sure how you would do it with food.

[00:17:21] And if you did it would food you'd probably get fat because yeah

[00:17:23] Carl Lanore: [00:17:23] now you lot you got to eat a lot of

[00:17:25] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:17:25] lot of calories. Yeah, so I mean people ask me is it doable my yeah, it's doable. I mean anything is doable to a point. I don't know if it's recommended but it's doable. Yeah,

[00:17:36] Carl Lanore: [00:17:36] which leads us to this the third discussion, which is.

[00:17:41] So we look at protein for its ability to build muscle and energize our bodies. But we also forget is that protein donates amino acids and amino acids are the words if you will of a very unique [00:18:00] vocabulary. Called peptides and these peptides are produced by the endoplasmic reticulum in each cell as kind of like the telegraph office.

[00:18:09] So that one cell can communicate with the other cell and the cells produce growth hormone as in the case of pituitary cells and and all these other really wonderful peptides that seemed to now we understand contribute to Health and Longevity. Right. So if you're eating a strictly plant-based diet and you are restricting some of these amino acids, they just don't appear that the analogy I gave off the air was it's tantamount to like if you're typesetting a book and you don't have the word and it's going to be really hard to make sentences that make sense.

[00:18:46] And and because you just don't have the ability for syntax and and and so on. And so we need to think about proteins also for this this extrinsic value of creating the [00:19:00] the vocabulary. That is our peptide development. What do you think about that concept?

[00:19:05] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:19:05] I mean, I think if you're if you're. If you're on the low end of protein intake what likely happened is your body is going to prioritize what it needs.

[00:19:15] And the last thing it needs is large muscles so hard it'll it would probably go to formation of peptides particular particularly peptide hormones because you need those where as you know, you don't need a gov of skeletal muscle to be alive. You just need enough to move around. So the body is not dumb it figures out what's most important for it.

[00:19:33] And what's the least important and oddly enough? For bodybuilding and putting on lean body mass or skeletal muscle is probably one of the Lesser important.

[00:19:42] Carl Lanore: [00:19:42] Yeah, that's right up. You better be very metabolically expensive thing to do from an evolutionary perspective.

[00:19:47] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:19:47] We arrived. It's an in fact, you know, the Human animals really built to be an endurance animal.

[00:19:54] If you're a 250-pound bodybuilder, you're not catching a single animal you would like be tired in about like a hundred [00:20:00] meters and then I'm starving to death eventually much to lose weight or something. Right? But yeah, its evolutionarily it's putting on skeletal muscle is not an advantage per se

[00:20:10] Carl Lanore: [00:20:10] what about the premise that eating too much protein acidifies the body and leeches minerals from the bones?

[00:20:20] Because the body has to adjust the pH of the Seer the blood so it steals minerals from the bones.

[00:20:27] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:20:27] Yeah that you know what that's just such total baloney and in fact cross-sectional data again, we've decks and probably 300 athletes of which almost all of them are consuming a pretty high protein diet.

[00:20:40] Their bone mineral density is crazy high. Okay, and people say okay. That's a cross-sectional study. You're just making an observation. What if you actually just got. People and had them consume a high protein diet and we did that actually with women because it's always women that you know, you're worried about bone mineral density front, right?

[00:20:57] So we actually got exercise trained women [00:21:00] and over the course of the they consumed about 2.3 grams per kilo. So about more a little bit more than a gram per pound which most people would say, that's pretty high. Yeah, and we measured bone mineral density at Baseline at six months and it one year.

[00:21:16] Nothing happened. Of course. I mean here's the thing. This is sort of a weird frustration on my part. I'm doing these studies and I'm like, I know nothing's gonna happen. This is just stupid

[00:21:25] Carl Lanore: [00:21:25] here. What are you doing? Right but people still don't believe it or not.

[00:21:30] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:21:30] Here's the thing. It's like all the social media experts are like well, okay you did it for a year.

[00:21:36] Maybe you should do it longer. I'm like what ten year study who's gonna volunteer for a 10-year study. I mean what the hell, you know, so, you know,

[00:21:44] Carl Lanore: [00:21:44] but again it comes back to critical thinking people fail to think about this. So, you know, they think that they're adjusting the pH of their body their tissue in the body by drinking a certain drink.

[00:21:56] When duping hydrochloric acid is like a one in [00:22:00] PH it will it like it would you know remember the fly when what's his name spit up on the guy's hand and it just melted me. That's hydrochloric acid. It lives inside your gut. So do you really think that special Kangen Water you're drinking is really going to have an effect on tissue, PA.

[00:22:20] When you're putting it into basically sulfuric acid, but come on. Give me a break, please.

[00:22:26] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:22:26] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah people forget, you know how acidic the stomach is. Yeah, and it's acidic for a reason because we all sorts of stuff and it needs to digest. Yeah

[00:22:35] Carl Lanore: [00:22:35] the Morrison in fact what they looked at Vultures so vultures actually have about four times more.

[00:22:42] Caustic and acidic types of hydrochloric acid in their guts that humans do and that's why they can eat dead stuff and not get sick. Nothing lives in they're not even microbes, you

[00:22:56] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:22:56] know. Yeah. Well, that's the beauty of evolutionary biology every [00:23:00] animal has sort of you know, they are selected for these conditions where yeah, probably hyenas and vultures.

[00:23:06] They could eat all the dead stuff us. You know, it helps to cook it eating it raw cake. We need some raw fish. I don't know about. Like raw chicken or eggs? Yeah, you know some people do that too, but we are all adapted to eat specific things. And and yeah this whole acidity causing your bones to Leach is just it's just a bunch of baloney because there's no data that show that eating a lot of protein causes bone mineral density to drop and in fact, if anything in protein intake high will maintain higher bone mineral density, at least that's what some reviews and some.

[00:23:38] Meta analyses suggest well there

[00:23:40] Carl Lanore: [00:23:40] so there and I'm going to put Robbie stalls question up and he did correct the use of his word there. He says is there any circumstances that you see protein negatively affecting bone density and I was going to say extrinsically if you increase muscle size and strength the body automatically up regulates the thickness of [00:24:00] bone to accommodate the sheer force of these muscles.

[00:24:03] We know this that's why women who squat. You know with weight on their back actually have a better response to Bone mineralization then taking one of these caustic drugs that they give out. Now these phosphate related drugs that actually wraps their jaw bone over time. So loading actually signals the body to get the bone that the chassis to get stronger.

[00:24:29] So yeah,

[00:24:30] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:24:30] let me add to that because it's an interesting question. Think think of the population that would purposely consume a higher-protein diet. They tend to be not they tend to be there almost always are just athletes. These are people who work out, you know, some some fat guy who you know shops at Walmart, you know twice a week is you think you shopping for like the best protein sources.

[00:24:52] No, he's just once he junk so the people who purposely choose to do this one workout. And more often than not these [00:25:00] people are working out in a manner that is going to increase bone mineral density in the way. You just said it. I mean just by putting compressive force or tensile force from muscles to bone will increase bone mineral density.

[00:25:12] So in a way, you can't separate the exercise part from the high protein intake because it's the same people right? I don't know anyone who like do you in fact, this is sort of a question that I would post. Their sedentary people, you know people don't work out who like, you know what I think I'm gonna have a way to portray protein shake today.

[00:25:34] Nobody

[00:25:34] Carl Lanore: [00:25:34] now.

[00:25:35] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:25:35] It's

[00:25:35] Carl Lanore: [00:25:35] only

[00:25:35] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:25:35] people who train so in a way you can separate the training in the protein because they go hand-in-hand and that's why when people say are there any conditions were high protein intake would negatively influence bone the answer to that is not only no, it's hell now.

[00:25:48] Carl Lanore: [00:25:48] Yeah. Yeah, there you go.

[00:25:49] I want to take a quick commercial break when we come back. I have questions about optimal protein intake. I know you've done lots of studies on different levels of protein per pound of per [00:26:00] kilo of body weight and the outcomes in these athletes because I wanted then juxtapose that to do these same things happen.

[00:26:07] If you're in a caloric deficit at the same time that you're eating massive amounts of protein we're talking with. Dr. Jose Antonio stay tuned. We'll be right.

[00:26:18] We're talking today with dr. Jose Antonio.  The website. Well, there's a couple ways to get to the website. Tell me the shortened version. You have a short again

[00:26:27] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:26:27] the short version for people have like no memories like me would be is n dot necktie assassin dotnet.

[00:26:34] Carl Lanore: [00:26:34] Yeah, and now can anybody join issn or do you have to really be a sports?

[00:26:40] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:26:40] Actually, what's the beauty of Isis in is what were might be the only organ science organization where anyone can join in anyone can come to the conference? You don't need have to be a scientist fact, I'd say five percent of our audience are just people who it's sort of their hobby. They don't know anything about science, but they like hearing about Sports Nutrition and some sports [00:27:00] sports science

[00:27:02] Carl Lanore: [00:27:02] Sports Nutrition is really interesting.

[00:27:04] We don't consider. The effects of what we eat and I'm living proof of this Ten Years After I was you know 330 pounds and that was a gradual change over 10 years that I didn't think much about but I was consistent and committed to eating that way for ten years and then all of a sudden when you put your brain into it and you start looking at Sports Nutrition you go.

[00:27:28] Oh so I can eat this way for the next 10 years and be a rip. Muscular person at the first one you don't think about but you do it everyday with consistent commitment. You know, it's just really is amazing.

[00:27:42] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:27:42] Yeah. It's and I always say given the choice between changing exercise and changing eating or Diet exercises a lot easier.

[00:27:51] Yeah. I mean changing how you eat is inordinately difficult, you know, but in a way what the way you describe it? The solution is [00:28:00] simple, but it's hard to do but it's actually simple.

[00:28:03] Carl Lanore: [00:28:03] Yeah. Yeah, you just do a little bit every day. So let's talk about what you've learned over numerous studies that you've published that look at different degrees of protein intake and trained individuals.

[00:28:15] What gets the best response what gets the most muscle what gets you the leanest at the same time?

[00:28:21] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:28:21] Okay, is that there's so there's two inches. Let's see. What would affect gains and lean body mass? And what could affect fat Mass. So, you know total body composition at least based on our data? What we what we are seeing is that in this is where bodybuilders were right?

[00:28:39] One gram per pound seems to be that sweet spot where most people will get pretty good gains and lean body mass if their training hard. So what happens above and beyond that? Well, we don't see an increase in lean body mass. But what you might sees is a drop in fat. So it's not like, you know, if you're focused just on bodybuilding.

[00:28:57] Okay, and you don't care about losing fat, [00:29:00] you know, you can stick to your 2.2 grams per kilo, but most athletes whether it's a football player basketball player. Someone who plays soccer or lacrosse, they're interested probably in both and maybe more so and losing fat mask because let's face it unless you're in a spa and a position.

[00:29:16] Let's saying football we're having mass is important. Most athletes actually don't want to gain muscle mass because. It's just extra weight. I mean if you're a wide receiver in the NFL you want you want to be fast among other things and gaining lean mass may not necessarily get you there. So you're training for Speed, but you also want to be lean and that's where maybe a higher protein intake might help quite a bit and there's a lot of sportswear and again bodybuilders don't understand this but there's a lot of sports where you actually don't even want to gain weight, but.

[00:29:44] You would want to lose fat Mass because you're just going to be quicker on your feet. You'll be faster. So roughly about a gram per pound good for lean mass anything above and beyond that seems to be good for promoting a loss of fat, Mass.

[00:29:57] Carl Lanore: [00:29:57] Okay. So, theoretically if I were [00:30:00] to be in a slight caloric deficit of say a couple hundred calories a day, but all I'm eating is protein first.

[00:30:08] And some carbs maybe not a lot of carbs. Let's say I'm a low-carb guy. I'm a hundred grams or less and some fat but all-in-all. Let's say I'm eating close to.  two grams of protein per pound of body weight, even though I'm in a caloric deficit would I see continued muscle gains even though I'm in a caloric?

[00:30:34] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:30:34] That wouldn't you know what? That's an interesting question. I think as long as you keep protein intake fairly high and I would even jump a little higher. I still think you would be able to gain muscle mass but it wouldn't be optimal because you're still dealing with a calorie issue. So to me if you want to gain skeletal muscle mass.

[00:30:51] It's calories than protein. However, you can still gain on a slight caloric deficit if protein intake is high enough. It's just not optimal. [00:31:00] So yeah, and you know, what are those? Like to do a study like that is fairly difficult because there's not many people who are disciplined enough to train really hard but also being a clerk definitely.

[00:31:11] I mean you almost got to get pro athletes and often times. They don't want to be in the study. So you're dealing with you no more recreational athletes.

[00:31:19] Carl Lanore: [00:31:19] So what about the the notion of. One pound two pounds at one one gram per pound. So on these metrics that we come up with. Well you want to have you know, The Sweet Spot is 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.

[00:31:35] No one ever says lean body weight everybody. Every always says body weight. Is it that different for someone who's carrying? A lot of fat Mass. Should they really be eating one gram per pound?

[00:31:47] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:31:47] Yeah. Well, here's the thing. If you're carrying a lot of fat and you're eating one gram per pound of protein.

[00:31:52] That extra protein may actually help you lose fat ass. Good point this. Yeah, the second issue I think is one of convenience because there's a lot of people [00:32:00] you know who have criticized my studies saying okay, you're doing you know, whatever 2.2 grams per kilo or whatnot rather than per lean body mass.

[00:32:09] And I think part of that is in the real world. Not many people can get accurate body composition assessment. So typically we all know our weight, but do we really know our lean body mass? Probably not. So as a matter of convenience, I think it's it's best to stick per body weight just because it's what everyone can relate to

[00:32:29] Carl Lanore: [00:32:29] yeah and there and you're right as I was asking the question.

[00:32:31] I was thinking well, if you are actually more body fat, you're just eating a higher amount of protein per liter per pound of lean body mass, which probably will help you get leaner faster. Anyway from your findings.

[00:32:42] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:32:42] Exactly exactly. Yeah,

[00:32:44] Carl Lanore: [00:32:44] so. Are there any frustrating myths about protein that that come to the top of your head that we haven't covered?

[00:32:52] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:32:52] Like I think the key ones is doesn't harm your kidneys. It doesn't harm your bones. We did a as we've done a serious about half a [00:33:00] dozen studies on high protein intakes and the last one I think you'll find intriguing what we did was we got a bunch of exercise trained men and women. So these are fairly good.

[00:33:09] And we put them on a caloric deficit of about twenty percent. So they have the country college for by 20% and they did it for four weeks. You know, like, okay. Well, that's pretty mundane. But what we did is we genotype them. There's a gene called the fto gene or the fat mass and obesity Associated Gene.

[00:33:27] The fto gene is something that helps regulate how much fat Mass you carry in part related to a whole host of things, but let's focus on one thing. So tidy. There certainly are people who are very good at knowing when they're full. You know, they eat and I like okay, I'm full I'll stop and that there are other people who like me if I go to a buffet even if I know I'm full.

[00:33:46] I keep eating because I just like to eat. Right. So so there are people who can see and I should sit there. I have friends who just can't stop eating them. Like, how could you stop eating the food is good. I just like to eat, you know, so and [00:34:00] so we separated once we got the data we figured out who who carried the risk the gene that carried the higher risk and who didn't have the high risk sorted normal risk people higher risk people and here's what we found.

[00:34:13] It doesn't matter if you're high risk or normal risk, if you cut calories and keep protein intake High about 2 grams per kilo. You'll lose fat mouse. It doesn't matter and some people like oh, well, then I guess jeans don't matter. Well, no jeans matter, but what this study showed is that in the short run if you cut calories you will lose weight now so so what if we did this for a year, I think what you would what you would see is people like you and I who like to eat.

[00:34:41] Would end up carrying more fat Mass only because we have a hard time regulating satiety. So. We can you and I can do anything for four weeks. We can do it for eight weeks. But if someone said could you do this for a year? We like this boy, that'd be kind of tough. And so we may end up carrying more fat mass than the person's like.

[00:34:57] Yeah, I could do this for a year. I mean I can say [00:35:00] I can push the plate away easily. I can regulate I know when I'm full whereas you and I it's like yeah, I'm pretty full but I'm Gonna Keep it. Yeah, right. So yeah so genes with funny you could overcome your genetics in the short run whether or not you can overcome it in the long run requires quite a bit of willpower.

[00:35:16] Carl Lanore: [00:35:16] What about this idea that?  That protein is the one macro that the body really really really really needs. You know, we store fat we can store glycogen and some people say well muscle is storing protein, but it's really not it's not a storage form of protein its active form of protein. It's we're learning more and more about muscles actually a gland that produces lots of hormones.

[00:35:42] But what about this notion that the reason that people. Overeat who a carb Centric eaters is because their body is trying to get to a level of protein consumption and they have to eat all these potatoes along with it in order to reach that and that is [00:36:00] why protein and satiety seem to go hand-in-hand and overeating people who eat eat carbs.

[00:36:07] Eccentric diets tend to overeat because they're trying to achieve that same level of protein consumption.

[00:36:12] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:36:12] Yeah. No, I think you know, I've heard that as well. I think there's some Merit to it and I think I think this sort of this other side which might be where I've obviously you and I is that even when you're full it seems like we always have this capacity more carbs and.

[00:36:27] But we don't have this capacity or protein. It's like you go to dinner. You're like man. I'm really full. Hey you want another piece of steak know? Hey, you want some apple pie? Oh, yeah, I could and it's just

[00:36:37] Carl Lanore: [00:36:37] I did this last night of jail and Anders. I almost had a piece of key lime pie after I said, I was so full.

[00:36:43] I was like, oh, yeah, but I got room for that.

[00:36:46] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:36:46] It's true. It's almost like our brains are wired. Give me high calorie hyper palatable stuff because I don't want to starve to death when in fact, okay in today's society. No one. Going to starve to death, but our brains think so. So it's like yes, give me [00:37:00] that key lime pie.

[00:37:01] Even I'm full. I do not want another slice of

[00:37:04] Carl Lanore: [00:37:04] steak even though it's

[00:37:05] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:37:05] really good. But I

[00:37:06] Carl Lanore: [00:37:06] want the key lime pie. Right? Right. That's amazing. Amazing. Yeah. What is NN events

[00:37:11] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:37:11] are coming up soon anything coming up soon. Yeah. We have a one that's fairly soon in October at Coastal Carolina University.

[00:37:18] You'll see that on the website Isis and dotnet. I think the big one which I think you know, if you ever get a chance Karl, I think you should go to our national meeting. It's held every June next year. It'll be at Daytona Beach, Florida, beautiful Beach June 18th to 20th and it's two and a half days of some great Sports Nutrition science some great and we even have some strength and conditioning some pure sport science stuff.

[00:37:43] You don't have to be a scientist attend. It's really open to anyone and it's a Daytona Beach June 18 to 20 next year. It's. For people who go to science conferences. The one thing they say about Isis and is one everyone's friendly and happy to pretty much everyone is in great shape. So everyone has this [00:38:00] they're happy to be there and they just liked it's sort of like this conversation like to talk about exercise and eating and drinking beer and you know eating Pop-Tarts, you know, and we all have fun with it.

[00:38:09] We're not no one. Themselves too. Seriously as them

[00:38:13] Carl Lanore: [00:38:13] right? I want to thank you for being here. I know you have to be off the air by 45 and it's 43 right now. So I'm gonna take a break when we come back you won't be here, but I will talk about a Blog that I just posted about bpc 157 side injection site or hamstring muscle belly week or so ago, and it's already healed up.

[00:38:31] So it's pretty impressive stuff. Thanks for being here today.

[00:38:34] Dr. Jose Antonio: [00:38:34] Hey, thanks guys. I appreciate it. I appreciate

[00:38:36] Carl Lanore: [00:38:36] that. Talk to you soon. I stay tuned. We'll be right back.

[00:38:42] Welcome back.  So, you know peptides are exploding.  I can honestly say that I've been toying around with peptides for close to 20 years now obviously started with growth hormone. And then after that was ghr P6, and then it was igf-1 [00:39:00] long or three. Excuse me, but like peptides have moved into the mainstream people are taking peptides because they have gut issues because they have autoimmunity issues because they have Lyme disease.

[00:39:15] Everybody's taking peptides. I mean peptides is second to probably CBD oil right now and popularity. CBD oil is everywhere. I mean everywhere. It's at farmer's markets. It's in gas stations. It's everywhere. And so like anything else that explodes into a cottage industry. There are charlatans. In the case of the the peptide industry is two types of charlatans.

[00:39:41] The first one of the companies that are buying cheap adulterated crappy peptides from China telling you that they're from the United States, which they're not. In order for these peptides all to be from the United States. These companies would have to have either recombinant technology in house, [00:40:00] which is very expensive and or they have to have amino acid sequences which are 10 times very expensive.

[00:40:07] They're like a million dollars each and the reality is recombinant technology is not really it's what we've been using. For a very long time but coming out with a 99% pure peptide through a recombinant technology is very difficult and very expensive because when you use recombinant technology using a form of E, coli, you're feeding it amino acids.

[00:40:36] It's literally pooping out strands of this peptide.  Then you got to wash. The peptides to get the E.coli out.  Then you have to mass spec the peptide to see what percentage you've got. [00:41:00] No, I've heard stories that the First go-around on recombinant. You're lucky if you get 60 or 70% of the peptide, so then what you do is you you have to wash it again, and then you have to add back into it because now you're getting less and less and this process is not a flip the switch we're done but this batch move on getting that one batch could take four or five or six different attempts to get it into that 98 percent Purity.

[00:41:27] Then it has to be life allies, which is just freeze dried. And and then sold and so I would go on the record as saying 95% of the peptide guys out there buying stuff from China or. You're buying it from a guy in the United States who says he's making it but he's buying it from China. So they're one step away from the lies so they could say oh, well, we thought it was come from the United States for buying it from this guy over here.

[00:41:57] He's inside the United States. He says he makes it [00:42:00] nobody flies to these labs to see well, let me see your recombinant technology lab. Let me see. You know, where do you life allies these powders. Where do you where do you process them or. Let's see your amino acid sequences. And the truth is we're at a stage where no one really wants to know because they don't want to because peptides a big business peptide research peptide companies.

[00:42:23] Make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month and nobody wants to go. Oh my God, we've been selling bad peptides all this time. Let's go out of business until we fix this no know what he wants would want to do that.  So that's one type of charlatans in the peptide segment. The other type of charlatan is people who talk out of their ass.

[00:42:42] They want to position themselves as peptide experts because they want to get a piece of this pie somehow and the reality is that they're probably a handful of peptide experts out there truly that that understand a variety of peptides as opposed to one that's in there, you know insulin. So you're you're a doctor who [00:43:00] works in a diabetes segment.

[00:43:01] You understand insulin. That's a peptide. And so as a result of the charlatans you have bad information being repeated kind of like the 30 grams of protein is the most you can absorb what digest that started the show with dr. Antonio. You have people that say an untruth so they can position themselves an expert and then ten other people repeat it and then they repeat it enough where now all of a sudden becomes like.

[00:43:29] Oh, this is the truth. We like everybody says this it must be true. So I saw. A post the other day. I was actually on Instagram. I thought it was on Facebook photos on Instagram and it was about the Oral-B PC peptide from dr. Seeds.com and some guy tagged a peptide research peptide company in his thread and said, it can't work because bpc [00:44:00] 157 has to be site injected in order for it to work.

[00:44:05] And then the peptide guy he tagged said thanks for tagging us. You got that, right?  And you don't have to be a peptide expert to apply critical thinking if you know a little bit about bpc, you know that it's naturally produced not the 157 B PC 157 is synthetic, but bpc is naturally produced in the guts of humans you produce be PC in your gut.

[00:44:32] And the role of bpc body protection compound is exactly like it says it's a universal like go put the fire out fix problems type of a peptide that works in conjunction with growth hormone. One of the effects of bpc is it increases growth hormone receptors the number of receptors on a cell so that growth hormone can have double and triple the effect on fixing [00:45:00] stuff.

[00:45:00] So it'll go to an injured area and while it's starting to play job foreman and fixing this it'll also let think of receptors as Flags. Puts up more Flags or growth hormone those go there and fix that and so the growth hormone can dock in multiple receptors on each cell and work faster.  So growth hormone, so bpc is made in your gut.

[00:45:26] But yet it works all over your body. No one ever said that BP CEO is only effective in the gut. We know that bpc heals, soft tissue tendons and stuff like that. It can affect chondrocytes and cartilage and meniscus and no one argues that but if BBC 157 has to be inside injected then that wouldn't be true.

[00:45:48] Excuse me, the bpc made in your stomach wouldn't fix anything but your stomach and we already know that that's not the case.  But let's look a little bit further at other. Let's look [00:46:00] at some other peptides the pituitary is a ductless glands, right? It squirts out at the base of your skull and at the base of your brain inside your skull it squirts out growth hormone.

[00:46:13] Now, does that growth hormone only effect. The local area know in my case it probably did because my head is huge. So obviously growth all my data a great localized effect on my body, but most people don't have gigantic heads and little bodies growth hormone makes its way to every tissue in the body, but it's but how can that be if it's produced up here?

[00:46:35] Like in this little area right here. How does it well, we know that both in acromegaly on which is giantism right / / / production of growth hormone from the pituitary they end up with crowding in the joints. One of the things that growth hormone is really good at is helping to regenerate soft tissue like meniscus in between the [00:47:00] joints in your hands and your wrists and your knees and these poor people suffer from agram acromegaly.

[00:47:06] They have what's known as joint crowding you see them they have bulging Knuckles bulging joints their ankles their elbows. Everything is overgrown.  So clearly that pituitary is producing a lot of growth hormone, but it's affecting other tissue in the body, but then when you look at. Inject the growth hormone, you have bodybuilders that use 10-15 IU's a day for periods of time.

[00:47:31] They injected in their skin on their stomach. It affects their knees. It causes joint crowding in the knees. It causes their brows to grow their heads to grow their jaws to grow so we know that these peptides regardless of whether they are squirted into the body where they originated they get everywhere now, Is there a value to cite injection probably so and [00:48:00] and I recently was training legs and I'm getting strong against.

[00:48:04] Oh, my leg curls are as heavy as the machine goes. I think it's like 240 or 260 pounds and I'm doing seated leg curls and I do them the way Alex Leaf taught me I slide all the way but just the balls of my ass on the seat so that the hamstring can contract from both ends. Instead of holding one part steady cuz I'm sitting on it and I was doing five sets and my last set I felt it.

[00:48:31] I was almost fully contracted. I felt this burn very reminiscent of when I tore my bicep felt this burn I immediately let the weight fall and I literally walked to my car and went home. And I got one milligram of be PC and I injected it in the skin in the area where I felt the burn I didn't eject it in the muscle in the skin in the [00:49:00] area where I felt the bird and that afternoon my hamstring hurt.

[00:49:06] I had a hard time straightening. My leg out walking was a problem stretching the leg out was a problem. I hurt but the next morning on a scale of 1 to 10 10 being. No recovery at all, and I'm sorry one being no recovery at all and 10 being completely healed. It was a seven the amount of pain that I had was negligible and I continue to inject one milligram 45 total days straight in the skin in the area where I felt this now the second day I did notice some bruising so there was a little blood.

[00:49:41] That escaped. I think I probably just tore a little bit of the muscle belly to belly just tore a little bit little blood squirted out. So there was some bruising. I went to the gym Friday and I trained legs. I didn't use the normal weight. I use I use 50% of my normal weight, but I was able to do leg curls without any pain [00:50:00] did bpc heal my hamstring abso-freaking-lutely.

[00:50:05] Did it heal it faster than it would have without bpc. Undoubtedly. I would have had this at least for a few weeks if it wasn't for BBC and of course I use growth hormone secreted Gods to so my growth hormone is higher than a guy. Age and it all works in conjunction, but did I have to cite injected?

[00:50:22] Probably not. I probably could have injected it in my stomach and I've moved away from that and I continue to inject it in my stomach ever since then. I just wanted so the way peptides work is when they get into the bloodstream they immediately start to search for receptors. In the tissue closest to them.

[00:50:41] So all I was doing was Expediting the bpc getting to that area of my body. It would have gotten there at some point in time after the injection had I chosen to inject it in my midsection as well, but I just felt like. Let it go right there and get to work first while it circles the rest of my body [00:51:00] did that bpc injection that I gave myself in the area of my hamstring injury benefit the rest of the tissue in my body.

[00:51:06] Absolutely. Absolutely so. You know, if you apply critical thinking you will never go wrong. You don't have to be a peptide expert you don't even have to be a scientist when people say stuff like that. Oh, no, you've got it injected here for it to work ask yourself.  Where does that peptide reside in my body naturally and my gut wow?

[00:51:33] People I we talked about bpc in 2014 with Adele Musa before anybody even knew what it was we were talking about it and we talked about how you can take it orally because it's naturally occurs in the stomach's of the body treats it differently than another peptide. It actually allows you to absorb it through your stomach and.

[00:51:52] You can even squirt it onto your tongue if you get a syringe and you don't want to inject it, you can actually squirt a half a milligram under your tongue or [00:52:00] milligram on your tongue. It'll work it'll get in it'll work. But anyway, the point being is if you apply critical thinking to a lot of these things you find that you can sniff out the truth and the and the falsehoods and you can avoid listening to people who don't know what they're talking about.

[00:52:18] I wrote a Blog about this it's up now. About bpc inside injections and last week. I wrote a Blog about transdermal delivery of peptides. And so, you know, everybody's trying to put their peptides and transdermal delivery you you can't if they are bigger than 500 Dalton and The Sweet Spot is 400 Dalton you can deliver things through the skin.

[00:52:42] But once you start getting into the Thousand or thousands of Dalton the skin it just stays on the outside of the skin. It's not getting in and I think thymus and beta form bpc 157 or two popular quote-unquote transdermally delivered peptides that are not being delivered transdermally [00:53:00] because they're both in like the fourteen hundred and Seventeen hundred Dalton range.

[00:53:04] You're just not being delivered you're wasting your time. You're wasting your money. You're wasting good peptides if they're real. So I'm going to keep talking about peptides as we move forward we do we do the the the the quintessential show on peptides, which is the pep talk this Friday. I've got a doctor coming on who's treating autoimmune disease and Lyme disease with peptide successfully.

[00:53:29] She's going to come on my show and she got to tell my audience. How she treats these people what works and what doesn't and she gave the same presentation at the international peptide Society Symposium teaching other doctors how to help people with Lyme disease and autoimmune disease using peptide.

[00:53:47] So just keep your eye out. You know, you gotta you gotta give everything to sniff test today when it comes to peptides because. It's a new Boom. Everybody wants to get into it. Everybody wants to make [00:54:00] money at it. Everybody wants to appear as an expert in it. And everybody is willing to tell you misinformation.

[00:54:06] If you will believe that they know what they're talking about. So just be careful of an eye. So that's it tomorrow the blueprint power our tune in then thanks for listening today and pass this show around and I'll tell you why. It's time for us to do away with these myths about protein. We don't eat enough protein.

[00:54:23] There's people out there going all the reason for obesity is all the meat people eat now. That's not why that is absolutely not why if you're eating if you're eating a hamburger and a biggie fry and a sugary soda and then some sort of confectionery pastry. It's not the meat that's making you fat.

[00:54:43] It's not we have to stop this. And it's track protein is not evil people eat more protein. They actually get leaner. I see you tomorrow. Thank you for listening today [00:55:00] .