[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] Spit that out right now. This is the superhuman channel following pay program does not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of the staff and management of triceps or productions or the superhuman channel. Try separate productions and the superhuman channel are not responsible for any claims, warranties, or guarantees.

[00:00:20]Hey, Hey, welcome back to another episode of super human radio star. We're starting a little late, a little technical difficulty this morning, but we're back on track. We've got a great show plan today. During the first hour, we're going to be talking a lot about. Um, women and hormones. During the first half hour, we'll have dr Annette Langur Gould on to talk about hormonal contraception and, uh, the linkage to a multiple sclerosis susceptibility.

[00:00:44] Then we're going to change it up a little bit and look at the effects of continuing hormone therapy on cerebral function. In postmenopausal women at risk of dementia. Then during the second hour, we're going to do something we love talking about, and that is the microbiome of the body when we talk about genetic [00:01:00] dysbiosis.

[00:01:01] So you're not going to want to miss that. And we're going to get right to the first interview, uh, with dr . Langer, Gould from the prestigious Kaiser Permanente in Southern California. How are you doing, dr Langer gold? Fantastic. Fantastic. Okay, so this is really interesting. We see a surge in the development of multiple sclerosis in women.

[00:01:23] Uh, and so your group, I guess, started to, uh, look at the linkage between, uh, hormonal based contraceptives right.

[00:01:32] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:01:32] Yes.

[00:01:33] Carl Lanore: [00:01:33] So tell us about the, was this a, a review of literature or was this a, a, an actual study that you performed.

[00:01:40] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:01:40] Oh, this is, this was an actual study that we performed from the patients that are from the people that are members in Kaiser.

[00:01:45] Um, so we have a really great electronic medical record system and we can link, see all of their prescription drug use. Um, and um, also, um, I'm able to review all the records and figure out who developed multiple sclerosis or ms like [00:02:00] illnesses. And so we looked back at all the women who had their first symptom.

[00:02:05] Of, um, ms, um, between 2008 and 2011 and then look back 10 years to see, um, what their hormonal contraceptive use patterns were. And you know, how many kids they had so many miscarriages they had and compared that then to five matched control. So women that are a lot like them, um, but had not developed, um, ms symptoms during that time period.

[00:02:28] Carl Lanore: [00:02:28] So what did you find out a top line summary. Um,

[00:02:33] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:02:33] that, that, um, using, um, hormonal contraceptives, mostly people were using, the women were using a combination, um, estrogen progestin pill, um, increases the risk slightly by about 30% of, um, developing your first symptoms of ms.

[00:02:48] Carl Lanore: [00:02:48] Okay. Now, now, obviously one of the things that is always underlying the discussion about women.

[00:02:54] And hormones is two things. Actually, not one thing. It's number one, the types of [00:03:00] hormones, uh, I E, uh, equine estrogens, et cetera, and, or, um, synthetics like progestins are synthetic progesterone, right?

[00:03:11] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:03:11] Yeah, that's

[00:03:12] Carl Lanore: [00:03:12] correct. And then also the delivery mechanism, right? These methylated, these methylated, uh, delivery, uh, orals.

[00:03:19] Tend to change hepatic landscape that pose their own risks, uh, with inflammation and thrombotic index and so on. Right. Okay. So did you segregate out for that? Did you look at that and say, well, these women are using bioidenticals, which I know no one really pays attention to. These ones are using equine estrogens and these are using progestins and so on.

[00:03:39] We

[00:03:40] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:03:40] did actually, um, you know, so, so just to summarize that, we had about 400 women that developed ms. So when every time we start breaking them in, down into the small groups, um, you know, it would get less certain about what the findings really mean. I, you know, what I would say is that we have very few women, almost all the women used, um, a regular, um, a [00:04:00] regular pill where there was a combination of a synthetic estrogen.

[00:04:02] So I don't think we really had, we hardly had any women on, um, the equine estrogen. Um, and, um. But with a large variety in the progestin compounds that were included in the pills.

[00:04:14] Carl Lanore: [00:04:14] So, so, so, so th but the majority of of them were using a synthetic estrogen. And so it's, it's safe to say that a portion of them will also using a synthetic progestin, right?

[00:04:25] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:04:25] Yes. Yes. They were there. Most of them were using a combination. Yeah.

[00:04:29] Carl Lanore: [00:04:29] And I can see what you're saying. If you start to segregate these out into two groups and then the weight of the re, the information becomes less and less because these groups are smaller and smaller. Right. Okay. Um, so was there any indication that, uh, that there was any direction in that area at all?

[00:04:48] I realize you can't give it too much gravity, but did you see a slightly higher peak and women who were using synthetic versus natural forms or, or bioidentical forms of estrogen.

[00:04:58] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:04:58] No, there was no difference by [00:05:00] estrogens. Um, we did see a slight difference, um, by the type of progestin they were using. Um, so the, um, there's a, there's a particular type of, um, um, estrogen called nor ESSA drown, which is very common.

[00:05:16] It's gotten more, it has androgenic properties, but it's not as androgenic as some of the other ones. And in that case, we actually didn't, when they use that type of. I'm progestin. They did not have an increased risk, but risk was the same, but all the other types, um, we did see that sort of small bump and increased risk.

[00:05:33] Carl Lanore: [00:05:33] Now what about the fact that D didn't you also look at the susceptibility of those women who actually stopped whatever they were taking within a certain period of time before the research was done? Right?

[00:05:48] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:05:48] Yeah. We looked at, we looked at, um, ever, never, um, and then current former users. Um, so, but it is, it's sort of a, you know, if they were, um, [00:06:00] if they had ever used, that's where the risk comes in, even if they had stopped within the three years prior to symptom onset.

[00:06:06] So. You know, just to say that, that makes me a little suspicious when you see

[00:06:10] sort

[00:06:10] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:06:10] of this, this

[00:06:11] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:06:11] lip, it's like a, like somebody turned on a light switch that, um, that what we're, what we're really looking at is a factor that reflects, um, a modern woman's lifestyle that, you know, it's, it's not entirely clear that this is really.

[00:06:26] The, the, um, the oral contraceptive, or is it something else that goes along with the lifestyle of a woman who doesn't want to get pregnant? Um, that, you know, that's causing

[00:06:37] Carl Lanore: [00:06:37] that, which is true of any study that is more epidemiological in nature because we don't know if things are corollary or causative just because they happen in these patterns.

[00:06:47] Right.

[00:06:47] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:06:47] Right? And so one of the things that we, you know, that we do and when we do these epidemiological studies is we look for a dose effect. So women who are on it longer, her used more total, um, particularly if the only reason they had breaks [00:07:00] was to have pregnancies, um, would they be at even higher risk than the women who had just used, um, a relatively short period of time.

[00:07:07] And when we compare the, the longest users with the least, the shortest users, we didn't really see a difference in risk. Um, and. Yeah.

[00:07:16] Carl Lanore: [00:07:16] What about, what about unopposed? Did we do, did you look at unopposed estrogen versus unopposed Progest progestins because there is, there has been some other research out there about unopposed progestins being some somewhat problematic and cognitive function and so on.

[00:07:34] Yeah,

[00:07:34] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:07:34] so that's a, that's a good question. It turns out that there are very few women that were using the progestin onlys. And so, um, we didn't, you know, there was such a small number of them that I'm not really certain, and we only had 24 women who had ever used a progestin only, um, type of contraception.

[00:07:51] So that's like so small. It's hard to know what that would mean. Right. And we didn't see it. We didn't see a difference. But then. That's the only 24 people.

[00:07:58] Carl Lanore: [00:07:58] Here's what I want to do. I [00:08:00] want to go ahead and take a quick commercial break. And when we come back, we will summarize the research and I want to ask you also what you hope that both laypeople and clinicians take away from this research.

[00:08:09] We're talking right now with dr Annette Langer, Gould. Uh, she is with the Kaiser Permanente Southern and Southern California department of research and evaluation. We're talking about, uh, if there is any, uh, linkage between. Multiple sclerosis susceptibility and women who have used or are currently using a hormonal contraception.

[00:08:30] Stay tuned. We'll be right back with more supreme-a radio where mind muscle and body come for intense training. You're listening to superhuman radio with Carl Lenore. We'll be right back. Feel younger. It's super human radio. Welcome back to super human radio. Just to reminder. It's the age force fat burn, a patch.

[00:08:56] You can get it for free. A 30 day supply for free. Go to super human radio.com [00:09:00] and click the banner ad and use the coupon code sr 30 find out what the rage is all about when it comes to weight loss. We're talking right now with dr Annette Langer, Gould. We're talking about a hormonal contraceptives and multiple sclerosis susceptibility.

[00:09:15] So in summary of your findings, do you feel that it is fair to say. That there is some sort of link in the rise and incidence of ms in women and contraceptives.

[00:09:28] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:09:28] Um, yeah, I think it's fair to say that I think it's a, it's a, it's a small piece of the puzzle. Um, but that, you know, exactly. And I think the, the question about the brands, whether the type of projection makes a difference is something that's definitely worth exploring.

[00:09:41] I mean,

[00:09:41] Carl Lanore: [00:09:41] it's got, it's got, it's got, it's got it. And doctor longer gold because let's think about it and dodging PR. Estrogen we know is actually neuroprotective in women. We know that a endogenous progesterone is also a very important and protective, uh, hormone. And if these. These two hormones themselves in and of themselves, [00:10:00] uh, we're culprits here.

[00:10:01] Then. Then women, when they go through, men, when they go through puberty, would start to develop these disorders. So we have to say, well, what's the missing piece here? The missing pieces that we're using, uh, agents that may be a foreign to the body and preparations that may be cause additional problems. So I think you're right.

[00:10:15] I think that this, if anything says, we need to dig deeper

[00:10:19] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:10:19] now. Yes, I agree with that.

[00:10:22] Carl Lanore: [00:10:22] What do you, what do you hope, what future studies do you have set up? I mean, you obviously have this great base of, of, of people out there.

[00:10:29] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:10:29] Yeah. We have a big study going on right now called the ms sunshine study, where we're actually, we're going out into the community and recruiting, um, the patients that have been newly diagnosed and, and putting them through a lengthy questionnaire and with a lot of questions about hormonal factors and again, with match controls so we can get a much more detailed picture of their lifetime hormonal, um, hormone use, not hormonal contraceptives, um, dietary supplements.

[00:10:55] Um, and, um, fertility. Um, along with, um, [00:11:00] you know, how long they nursed to try and understand whether we're talking about specific, um, androgenic or estrogenic properties that may be playing a role, or is it anovulation that's sort of the key that the less you ovulate, um. And that's sort of that somehow having babies is protective, but it's more linked to anovulation or, you know, are we talking about specific hormonal factor or just a general state?

[00:11:25] Um, of anovulation,

[00:11:28] Carl Lanore: [00:11:28] obviously this is not a popular topic because so many women, uh, you know, uh, who do not want to have children. And so, I mean, we're talking about married couples who are not ready to have children turn to. Uh, typically some sort of hormonal contraceptive. The woman is, you know, usually bears the burden of this and you know, it, it's, it's, it's something that  this is really a problem of modernity, you know, Oh, we don't wanna have babies, so we stop the menstrual process.

[00:11:56] I mean, I can't believe that's good for our women's bodies. They just can't [00:12:00] believe it.

[00:12:01] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:12:01] Yeah. And then, and that's the part that's unclear. I mean, it's, it's clearly linked to other diseases. Um, you know, breast cancer in particular, but whether how that would factor into, um, autoimmune diseases, like multiple sclerosis is still unclear and it's all complex relationships.

[00:12:17] So that's what we're trying to get at the ms sunshine study, because also obesity, a sedentary lifestyle, being indoors and having low vitamin D and how that all, those are all hormonal factors. I'm with proinflammatory properties. How that, how you, you know, maybe you need four or five of those things to come together and adding in the wrong kind of oral contraceptive.

[00:12:40] It becomes one of those redundant factors. And then you see, then you see the increase in risk

[00:12:48] Carl Lanore: [00:12:48] if they agree, you know, and what you're talking about is something that typically, um, uh, science doesn't pay attention to. What you're talking about is you had all these variables. And observing them all [00:13:00] together and also independently to see what their contribution is.

[00:13:03] Because typically science likes to find one thing. While we found this, we found it. You know, we found the gene responsible for this, and you're right. I really think that. Well, we look, have a look at a lot of the diseases of modernity. Uh, you know, I hate to keep using this term because it's overused, but we, we've created a perfect storm for disease today because of our lifestyles, the things that we expose ourselves to, you know, uh, pesticides and, and lack of sleep.

[00:13:29] And I mean, the list goes on and on. We are really mismatched for what we've created today.

[00:13:35] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:13:35] Yeah, I would agree with that. Then, you know, particularly autoimmune diseases that were, you know, as infections go down, auto immune diseases go up and there's, you know, that, but it's a lot more complicated than that.

[00:13:46] You know, living in an app,

[00:13:48] Carl Lanore: [00:13:48] what do you want? What do you want, uh, both clinicians and lay people to take away from this research? Obviously there's women who are going to get panicked because they're on some form of a hormonal contraception right now.

[00:13:59] Dr. Annette Langer-Gould: [00:13:59] Yeah. I mean, I [00:14:00] would say that the, you know, that if you add the, the general landscape of evidence, there's no reason to change hormonal, hormonal use contraceptive policies based on this study.

[00:14:10] And I would not panic, you know, that somehow ms would go up. But what I would say is that, you know, if, if you have a strong family history of multiple sclerosis, you may want to look into other forms of contraception, like a NuvaRing or something. Something. Something else that's maybe a little lower dose.

[00:14:27] Um, and, but again, the main issue is really our smoking. And if you're Caucasian or you're light skinned, low vitamin D, those are going to be your. Um, main things and get your vitamin. Don't just take a supplement. Really spend a little more time in the sun, you know? And that's whether or not it's all by vitamin D.

[00:14:45] we don't know. It looks like it may actually be, there may be other things about being in the sun that are protective as well.

[00:14:50] Carl Lanore: [00:14:50] Yes. Yes. I, I, you're talking to somebody who just came back from Mexico and I look like I belong in Mexico right now. So luckily for me, I'm Italian [00:15:00] and two days in the sun and I get it.

[00:15:02] I get so dark. But yeah, you're right. I, you know, we become so sun phobic and it's, you know, we evolved under the sun. If it was really that bad for us, we wouldn't be here having this conversation today, we would have been wiped off the planet already. So anyway, I want to, I want to thank you all for coming on the show today and talking about this is very, very important discussion.

[00:15:22] And obviously, as you say, people shouldn't run out there and abandoned, but maybe look into alternative methods of contraception. Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show. All right, so stay tuned. We're going to take a quick commercial break. When we come back, we're going to be joined by dr Natalie Raskin from Stanford university to talk about the effects of continuing hormone therapy on cerebral function in postmenopausal women and those who are at risk of dementia.

[00:15:50] You're listening to super human radio. Stay tuned. Previously on superhuman radio? Well, they go to the doctor and the doctor says, you know, your cholesterol is kind of high and you fall into this group here [00:16:00] and under the new guidelines, we need to prescribe you a stat and the person doesn't go, I don't want to stop.

[00:16:07] They don't even go. Let me look into a doc before you write that prescription. They don't say anything, go, Oh, okay. And they take it. Carl gives advice about how to talk to your doctor and what other areas of your life do you take. Someone else says that's selling you a service of gospel truth. You pull into the mechanic and you know all you need is your tie or chain, and the mechanic says, but you also need a complete engine overhaul, and you go, hi, what's it going to cost?

[00:16:32] 3000 okay, I guess you got to do it. No, you go, I don't get an engine overhaul. Just change my tire so I can get out of here. But no one talks to the doctors, like keep listening to superhuman radio with Carl, the Knorr weekdays at noon, one, two punch for muscle growth is increased pumping, increased intention.

[00:16:47] Research shows metabolic changes occur that you'll bigger, stronger muscles. Harness the power of  plus carnosine beta alanine to give you a workout. The intensity pump and metabolic changes that you'll not only feel, but be able to [00:17:00] see. Go to superhuman radio.com and use the coupon code SHR to get prime nutrition's ultimate stack and save 30% off.

[00:17:07] That's a savings of over $12. Get the most out of your next training session with prime nutrition's nitric oxide plus intensity stat. Prime nutrition the best or nothing.

[00:17:19] It's super human radio.

[00:17:28] Welcome back to super human radio. Just a reminder, if you don't already have the super radio network app, you can stream the live show, manage the podcast, communicate with me on air, go to your choice of Google play or the Apple. A store and download the superhuman radio network app today. It's free.

[00:17:46] Check it out. Okay. My next guest is dr Natalie Raskin. She's with Stanford, a center for neuroscience and women's health in Stanford university in California. How are you doing, dr Roslyn?

[00:17:58] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:17:58] I'm very well, [00:18:00] thank you for inviting me.

[00:18:00] Carl Lanore: [00:18:00] Yeah, my pleasure. This is an important discussion too, because you know, a hormone replacement therapy is becoming more and more popular today, and, uh, there's lots of unanswered questions out there.

[00:18:11] Your group did a study looking at the effects of continuing a hormone therapy on cerebral function and postmenopausal women at risk of dementia. How did you assess that these particular women were at risk at greater risk of dementia?

[00:18:29] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:18:29] So this study was a kind of a natural followup from the previous studies we've done.

[00:18:35] When I was at UCLA and we were looking at people at familial risk for Alzheimer's disease by familial risk, we meant having at least one family, first degree family member who had Alzheimer's dementia. And so we continued looking at the effects of hormone therapy, specifically with the relation to the estrogen component of hormone therapy on the pivotal [00:19:00] function in the brain, in women who were at risk.

[00:19:05] Carl Lanore: [00:19:05] Um,

[00:19:09] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:19:09] the risk was also defined as having, um. A genetic factor, which is called  four. It's a well known gene conferring the increased risk for Alzheimer's.

[00:19:21] Carl Lanore: [00:19:21] Now, did you control for different, uh, types of hormone therapy? You know, biodentical versus synthetic and, or if these were, uh, um, methylated orals versus creams and stuff like that?

[00:19:37] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:19:37] Well, it's a good question. So the purpose of this study and that study was initiated about 10 years ago, was to understand what, what is really. Going on in the brain when women discontinue hormone therapy. That was kind of a response, if you will [00:20:00] do the data, which came at that time from whi, which was the women's health initiative study, suggesting that estrogen was very detrimental to the brain function and increased.

[00:20:11] Dementia, probability of dementia, increased probability of stroke. So we were interested to see, so if women are going to stop their hormones, what exactly is going to happen now by the virtue of not so deep, so to speak, discriminating against women who are taking various preparations. We allowed any.

[00:20:35] Type of hormone therapy to be present at the time we enrolled these women, we had two major caveats for the enrollment. One was they had to be on hormones for at least one full year and two, they had to start those hormones at the time when they were becoming menopausal. So, so those were the criteria.

[00:21:00] [00:21:00] What happened after that? We. Randomize this women to stay in what they were receiving or to go off.

[00:21:08] Carl Lanore: [00:21:08] Okay. That's perfect. Those are, those are really two critical, especially starting at menopause. You know, whether it's perimenopausal or the beginning of a amenorrhea. That's the, that's a critical point right there.

[00:21:20] Cause we know that a lot of the. Uh, uh, conferred benefits of, of a HRT and women are lost. That actually could become dangerous detriments if they wait too long to start their hallmark place. Every. So what did you find?

[00:21:35] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:21:35] So yes, just to enthusiastically endorsed what you just said, Carl. Um, exactly. So the, I'm among many proponents of what is called window of opportunity for estrogen to work.

[00:21:47] And so that's, I think, one of the main, um. Explanations to why when a woman is taking hormones later in, life starts, starts later after a certain period of, [00:22:00] um. Not taking anything and not having her natural hormones being produced anymore. It may have completely opposite effect, not just on the brain, but maybe another tissue.

[00:22:12] No. Anything else. But, but, so what we found was, so the idea was to see if those who continue on estrogen will have differential. Um. Presentation of the metabolism in their brain, in the, in the regions which are responsible for the cognition, for the memory, for the executive function, et cetera. And we did not necessarily anticipate that it would depend on the type of hormone therapy.

[00:22:39] Uh, to our surprise, we actually found it that both endpoints were found at the baseline assessment that women who were. On as to dial based hormones had more optimal patterns of metabolism in the brain in comparison to those who were in Premarin. And that [00:23:00] finding was it repeated at the followup and each woman stayed in the study for two years.

[00:23:05] Carl Lanore: [00:23:05] I love that, you know, because, uh, we, we had someone on during the first half hour talking about hormonal contraception and its potential linkage to the risk or susceptibility of, uh, multiple sclerosis. And the reality is that w w w endogenous hormones are protective. And when we replace, we have to adhere to trying to replace with what looks to the body to be as closely.

[00:23:34] Uh, mimicking what is endogenous to us, and when we use, when we use equine estrogens and, or a synthetic estrogen and progestins, the body doesn't act the same as if it was. What the body thinks belongs there. And I think that that, that we can safely say, uh, plays out in what you just said, that the, the, the, the, the Premarin is, [00:24:00] is, uh, well, Prempro is a progestins  and equine estrogen, I guess Premarin is just the equine estrogen right?

[00:24:08] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:24:08] Uh, yes, it's an eh, yes. It's a conjugated equine estrogen has about 33 compounds. 17 of them are biologically active, and Esther dial is only one of those 17.

[00:24:22] Carl Lanore: [00:24:22] Right. And, and, and I don't know if this is true or not, but some of those other estrogens don't occur in humans. They only occur in horses.

[00:24:30] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:24:30] Uh, probably yes.

[00:24:31] Um, okay. So humans have only three types of biologically active estrogen,

[00:24:36] Carl Lanore: [00:24:36] as strong as the dial on estriol. Okay. So, so what else did you find? Anything that really surprised you?

[00:24:45] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:24:45] That was one of the biggest surprises we had. The other was, um. The fact that we actually were able to look at the difference [00:25:00] in metabolism between the women who were staying on Esther dial and the woman who went office to dial.

[00:25:08] So in in what I'm saying is that women who went off Esther dial at two years of not receiving hormones. Their metabolism. Their profiles were similar to women who stayed on Premarin. So in a way, we indirectly make support. Additionally, support the whi memory study results, which looked on the on Premarin and said that, well, in those women who were in Premarin, the

[00:25:40] A risk for developing dementia is higher. So we have now kind of an additional objective marker of such potential increased risk

[00:25:54] Carl Lanore: [00:25:54] and at the same time validated that Esther dial in and of itself. [00:26:00] Is, is protective to some way, and we know it's protective. I mean, there's this research out of Canada that people don't even pay attention to, uh, about, uh, uh, Parkinson's disease and Esther doll being protective of the brain.

[00:26:12] And I know that. One of the ways it's protective is through a receptor called the fibroblasts activation factor faff, which it can actually suppress inflammation acutely and spontaneously. It's like we know that estradiol is good and your research shows, yet again, the differential between Esther  and these other agents.

[00:26:32] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:26:32] I love it. Yeah. So, um, I think that as to estrogen in general is kind of misconstrued a bit because if this is truly a very powerful, very powerful player in the brain in many, many aspects, and not just in the brain, but specifically to neuroscience, it's a very powerful, uh, potentiator of growth. It hasn't the depressant effects and multiple other effects.

[00:26:59] Some of [00:27:00] them are. Better known in humans, some less. But I think the occult approach to estrogen being all good or bad is, is a misleading one and could be potentially dangerous. And I think that our study is just bringing this granularity because the fact that some women in fact may benefit from it, it doesn't mean that every woman can.

[00:27:25] Carl Lanore: [00:27:25] Okay. All right. We have to take a quick commercial break and when we come back, we've got lots more to talk about. Uh, we're talking right now with dr Natalie Raskin. We're talking about continuing hormone therapy. Uh, this is for postmenopausal women at risk of dementia, uh, how it affects their, their brain function.

[00:27:42] You're listening to superhuman radio. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. I bet you're feeling stronger already. So keep listening to super human radio. We'll be right back. Hey, this is Carl for 14 years. You've heard me talk about Kancey eyedrops and they being the [00:28:00] reason that I do not need reading glasses at now, 61 years old.

[00:28:03] But I regularly get emails and messages from people who've been using Kanzi and having some amazing results. Recently I got an email from a fellow named Chad who, because he was on dexamethazone eyedrops for over six months, developed a cataract, can see eye drops, actually reduce my cataract to the point where.

[00:28:19] Even my doctor has a hard time finding it. I will never stop using CATSI eye drops twice a day. I've been using them since 2008 he says, and you should be too. There is no better way to keep your eyes healthy and seeing clearly than can see eye drops. Go to wise choice medicine.com today and get on board and we will both be looking into the future with very clear vision.

[00:28:43] Are you looking for a better way to absorb the nutrients you know you need. Do what I do and start your day with lipid spirits. Supplements from live on labs. Unlike pills and powders live on its patented lyposomal encapsulation technology transports nutrients like vitamin C, vitamin B, Luda, [00:29:00] thighbone a see the low carnitine and alpha lipoic acid to where they need to be.

[00:29:04] Yourselves. Visit tri.live on labs.com forward slash Karl to learn why I take the supplements every day to help me perform in the gym. And in LA. That's tri dot L. I V O N L a B s.com/carl you've heard about blood flow restriction training since 2006 on SHR, but you're still on the fence. While here's the push.

[00:29:30] BFR is more effective at building muscle than anabolic steroids. That's right. I went there, but it's because it's the truth. My experience with the beach strong blood flow restriction system is proof to me, and now I'm asking myself why I waited so long. You'll see. Viable changes in the targeted muscles, it days and weeks like nothing you've ever tried before.

[00:29:50] I will never stop using them. Give be strong a try. Go to B, S, T, R, O N G. dot. Training forward slash super hyphen human and [00:30:00] use code SHR for 10% off. Jump with higher limped and more. It's super human radio.

[00:30:12] Welcome back to superhuman radio. We're talking with dr Natalie Roskin about HRT and, uh, potentially its, uh, effects on dementia and brain function in postmenopausal women. Did you look at oppose versus unopposed, uh, in this group?

[00:30:33] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:30:33] Yes. Yes we did, actually. We did. And, uh, we found that, um, unfortunately we.

[00:30:42] It's, it's a statement which may cause anxiety in some women, but it's, it's the biologically plausible explanation that progesterone on a progestin rather, um, has opposite effect on brain function from what estrogen does. [00:31:00] And that's kind of known in a bio. In a general biology sense. Uh, progesterone and progesterone components are, um.

[00:31:10] Having very different effects than what estrogen does, but we did. We were able to see that in women.

[00:31:17] Carl Lanore: [00:31:17] Well, you said, you said specifically progestin, which is a synthetic progesterone,

[00:31:21] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:31:21] right? All right. So, uh, okay. Let me try to explain it. We were actually best matured except one. One subject in the, in the study was taking micronized progesterone.

[00:31:33] Everyone else was on progestin. Progestin is S synthetic. It's assault of progesterone on one way or the other. There are various types of it. And, um. That's the most common, um, component of the hormone therapy that isn't as that progesterone on itself. And in the past, in the 50s and the 60s, women were taking Esther dial [00:32:00] and progesterone as a hormone replacement therapy.

[00:32:04] Progesterone itself is, has a lot of side effects. And so pharma. For quite a long, long time. We're trying to find something more digestible to women so it has less bloating, less, um, potential acne and, uh, headaches, et cetera. So there, the progestins are. The most predominantly used components in four months.

[00:32:34] Carl Lanore: [00:32:34] Right. But the reason it's the question was meant to be rhetorical only because once again, we're getting into what the body naturally, okay. I understand the negative side effects of orally administered progesterone. Number one, it is not very bioavailable for every hundred milligrams. Maybe. Two milligrams actually ends up in the bloodstream.

[00:32:55] So economically, it's not a good thing for pharmaceutical industry to waste so much. [00:33:00] And that's why the methylation process was such a boon for the pharmaceutical industry, but also a, not a boon for your liver, but with that being the case orally administered, progesterone seems to be metabolized through the liver in such a way.

[00:33:15] That predisposes it to some of these side effects. I guess what, what needs to be done now is to segregate, and we should have a large enough body of women out there today who are on transdermally delivered progesterone to look at the differences in this group versus those who are taking, uh, uh. Orally delivered, either methylated or base non methylated to see what the differences in those are.

[00:33:43] Because I have to come back and say that anytime we introduce something that the body does not recognize as its own, we, we raise a host of problems and I have to believe that progesterone in and of itself, this is not an indictment against progesterone, but the way we [00:34:00] administer it today.

[00:34:03] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:34:03] I don't disagree with you, Carl.

[00:34:04] The issue is that it's more of a commercial issue of an eScience issue that progestins are here this day, I think, and a progesterone patch, uh, to my knowledge is not widely used or. If at all, but estrogen patch is used. Estrogen testosterone patch is used, but progesterone, I don't think so. Actually, micronized progesterone is a, um, kind of a chemically altered form of a pure progesterone, which has much less side effects.

[00:34:36] And it is, I think, preferable component of the hormone therapy for women who need it. There. There are whole host of other questions, which I wouldn't go into, which is where the woman really needs progesterone. So, but that's, that's a separate issue.

[00:34:52] Carl Lanore: [00:34:52] Yeah, I know. Because there's that, that's a slippery slope because there are groups out there who say, well, unopposed, uh, ashjian is where the [00:35:00] problems occur in, in the, uh.

[00:35:02] Uh, in the uterus and then others who say, no, progesterone causes more problems than it's worth. So I know it. It's amazing. But the fact that we're having this discussion is very, very important that people are looking into this. Um, because as you pointed out, back in the 50s, they gave women this stuff and they said, look, you know, you have

[00:35:22] It's in your head. If you have a side effect, it's in your head. At least people are taking it seriously and going, well, maybe there's something different about this progesterone versus that progesterone.

[00:35:31] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:35:31] Yeah. No, absolutely. I think, I think we're at the better place now.

[00:35:34] Carl Lanore: [00:35:34] Yeah. So what do you, what do you hope that, uh, clinicians and lay people take away from this research?

[00:35:40] It sounds to me that this is a, a win for continued hormone replacement therapy as far as brain function goes.

[00:35:48] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:35:48] Yes. I think that that is as a safe conclusion to make from this study. The question is who are the people who are taking it? So I would hope that those women who [00:36:00] have increased risk for dementia.

[00:36:02] Now I wonder, to bring up a point of distinction, none of these women were cognitively impaired. These were 45 to 65 year old, high functioning, well educated women. Which would you flag to the population of women taking hormones therapy. Right. And, um, they were not even significantly overweight just to tell you.

[00:36:26] And these women, um, were at heightened risk for dementia. It doesn't at all mean that they would inevitably develop dementia. Right. And I think it's a very important point of distinction for all the listeners and anyone who reads the article. On the other hand, I say that those who are at increased risk, and there are multiple risk factors which could be contributing to that heightened risk.

[00:36:56] Yeah. Sure did they view with their providers [00:37:00] the reasons where they have to be or not to be on hormone therapy, and especially for menopausal women who just begin their transition into post-menopause to consider doing that? If they have. Elevated risk for Alzheimer's disease, because, let me mention one study were published about eight or nine years ago.

[00:37:21] That was a large study at the Karolinska in Swedish registry where a will looked at elderly twins. Uh, some of them were digging at hormones and some were not. And w and we looked at their cognitive impairment at about 10 to 30 years post the fag. They started taking hormones and the will, there was a clear correlation between those who were taking hormones, um, at the time of their potential menopausal transition.

[00:37:53] Far projected in the very seventies and eighties so there, there [00:38:00] is a potential to say that if a woman takes estrogen at the right time, it may in fact preserve her certain cognitive functioning.

[00:38:09] Carl Lanore: [00:38:09] Yeah. And you know, I, I don't mean to oversimplify things because I'm not a scientist, but I look at a lot of things through the evolutionary.

[00:38:19] Uh, my evolutionary sunglasses, you know, and I, and I think to myself, you know, if you, if you look at us as a species and you say, look, we have one job and that is to procreate, to continue the species, we stay healthy until that, then we, we, we extrapolate from that and say, well, sex steroids, sex hormones are part of that, and they start to wane.

[00:38:38] When it's time for us to clear off the planet, then we know that hormones are messengers. And if you keep those messengers working longer, telling the body, Hey. You're not, you're not on the other side of the Hill yet. You still could have a baby. You still are. You know, you're still functioning. You're still, the body continues to repair itself.

[00:38:56] Now, how long that will go on for? We don't know, but it makes perfect [00:39:00] sense to me that estrogen is nor protective. In fact. In fact, we did a show just recently that showed that hormone replacement therapy in men, which is generally just testosterone. Many of the benefits experienced. From hormone replacement therapy and men is from testosterone.

[00:39:18] It's conversion through aromatase to estrogen, of course. So, you know, we really need to understand that. And I

[00:39:27] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:39:27] kept secrets I smarter than women because they have more estrogen.

[00:39:33] Carl Lanore: [00:39:33] No, women are smarter than men because they have more estrogen.

[00:39:35] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:39:35] Yeah. But then in aging men, you having to start to earn, which gets, as you just said, around Matteis

[00:39:42] Carl Lanore: [00:39:42] in the editor.

[00:39:43] Yes. And as we get older, and aromatase is more and more, and as women get older, they have less and less. And this is what we talked about on the show, that that astrogen is light ballistic. And that's why when women go through menopause, they put on weight because astrogen drops and the body is trying to increase [00:40:00] estrogen by, by increasing fat storage because aromatase lives in fat cells.

[00:40:04] That is correct, but we have to at the same time, we can't go, Oh, then then everybody take out. No, we have to tread lightly. We have to figure out what the body works best with and not make assumptions in either direction. A and research like this helps us do that. I

[00:40:22] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:40:22] love this stuff.

[00:40:31] Duration of life for women especially, is dramatically increased in comparison to say, a hundred years ago. Um, it's moving door is almost doubling, right? The age at menopause is very, uh, evolutionary set at about 51. So what happens is that women spend more and more. Time of their lives in post-menopause.

[00:40:56] And I think that protecting that time [00:41:00] from age related changes is very important.

[00:41:04] Carl Lanore: [00:41:04] And there is a, there is, I went to the ancestral health symposium in Atlanta last year and one of the discussions they had was that that is actually a part of our, the evolution that's occurring right now in women because it takes more resources to raise children today.

[00:41:20] So. Grandmothers are more important to the raising of children and hence live longer beyond their, uh, their offspring years. So to help, to help the daughters raise their children.

[00:41:33] Dr. Natalie Rasgon: [00:41:33] I mean, it's,

[00:41:34] Carl Lanore: [00:41:34] it's a, it is fascinating. It really is. I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. First of all, I love this kind of research.

[00:41:39] I think it's fantastic. Uh, and we need more of it. We really do. Thank you. Have a great day. You too. Bye. Bye. All right, so stay tuned. When we come back, we're going to change it up and talk about another love of mine, and that is. The microbiome of the body. As we talk about the role of the microbial [00:42:00] insult in chronic inflamed inflammatory disease, you're listening to super yum radio.

[00:42:03] Stay tuned. We'll be right back. He's got the information that's perfectly healthy for you to snack on. He's Carl Lenore on superhuman radio. We'll be right back.

[00:42:20] it was a moon at night

[00:42:21] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:42:21] in old Navy.

[00:42:22] Carl Lanore: [00:42:22] Yes, and I just returned from Mexico and I am tan baby, my Southern Italian blood. When I get under the sun for a couple of days, I change colors. People don't even recognize me right now. Okay, welcome back. Welcome back. Just a reminder that the age forest fat burner patch a 30 day free trial, go to super you radio.com click the age forest banner ad, use the coupon code  and get a 30 day supply free.

[00:42:48] Check it out yourself and find out why everybody is raving over how quickly they lose body fat using the age force fat burner patch today. Okay. [00:43:00] Continuation of discussion that we love having on this show, and it is about the new frontier in my opinion. Uh, and that is the microbes that live inside our body, the microbiome, and we are being joined by dr Luigi Nebali all the way from Italy.

[00:43:14] How are you doing, dr Nebali?

[00:43:17] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:43:17] Thank you. Nice to hear that. You also have Southern Italian origin.

[00:43:24] That's where I was born.

[00:43:25] Carl Lanore: [00:43:25] Oh, really? So they say , right. Hardheaded color. That's it. That's it. Anyway, so we're talking about a paper that you have just published. A genetic dysbiosis, the role of microbial insults in chronic inflammatory diseases. What, what exactly is a genetic dysbiosis? Let's start there.

[00:43:48] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:43:48] Genetic by us. Is that a term that we coined for this particular paper? Because we realize how important the Haas genotype is on the colonization of [00:44:00] bacteria in our bodies. So this is something we came to after many years of research. I have to say I'm a dentist, so I'm not a microbiologist, but I became more and more interested in microbiology with time.

[00:44:12] Essentially, these all started many years ago when we were, um, analyzing patients with gum disease, with their . And we realize that obviously some of them had some very pathogenic bacteria under their gums, which goes gum disease and they goes early to slop. So when we investigated these cases, we also looked at the hosp genotypes.

[00:44:36] So we did a large investigation when we examine many patients with gum disease and healthy patients. And we took their genome. So we took blood samples, we analyze some specific genetic variance in the patients, and we also analyzed which bacteria they had under the gum. And that's when we found out that there were certain genetic [00:45:00] variants that were prejudice posing.

[00:45:01] So the presence of certain bacteria under the gum. Wow. But that's when we started realizing that people didn't just have. Um, some bacteria because of necessarily of environmental factors. But because genetic variance, uh, um, actually determined or had a large role on which bacteria would call an idea gum.

[00:45:23] So therefore they will have, uh, an important role on which bacteria could cause gum disease and why you would lose

[00:45:31] Carl Lanore: [00:45:31] teeth. Well, now this, this makes perfect sense because we know that the initial seeding. Of the microbiome occurs as the baby passes through the vaginal canal and then later on through breastfeeding.

[00:45:47] So this makes perfect sense that genetics and microbial diversity would somehow be a hand in glove relationship. Does it not?

[00:45:57] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:45:57] Sure. Absolutely. And we know there is a vertical [00:46:00] transmission of bacteria. Obviously you inherit lots of bacteria from the mother. Yeah. But it's not just that, it's not just a direct transmission.

[00:46:07] It's actually the, the host genome affects the bacteria because it affects the environment where bacteria grow. So for example, depending on specific, uh, gene variants in some interleukin genes, some people produce more inflammation. They are hyper inflammatory. So certain bacteria, like inflammatory environment, because they contain, for example, more iron.

[00:46:32] So they will tend to grow more in people that have these hyper inflammatory genotype. Wow. Uh, that, that's what probably makes the difference. That's what makes a difference on why if you get, uh, in contact with a specific bacterium, maybe that bacterium will not grow in your mouth. Maybe it will grow in my mouth because of different than a declarative position.

[00:46:55] Carl Lanore: [00:46:55] But now, but now, is there a possibility of influencing a person's [00:47:00] outcome by introducing. A certain microbes to the body, will they? Or is it like when you were saying about the environment, I immediately think, well, you know, that's why like you can grow certain vegetation in one part of the world, but not in the other part, because the environment is different.

[00:47:16] And so the body's landscape is very, very similar. So, but is there a way to introduce and change the diversity of the microbes in a person and influence the outcome of disease.

[00:47:28] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:47:28] Well, that's obviously the ultimate question. It's a very important question. And I'm afraid we still don't know that. Um, but potentially, yes.

[00:47:36] I mean, if you look at things like, uh, prebiotics, probiotics or, uh, I mean, anything that could influence to some extent, uh, the biofilm might have a role. But the interesting thing is, uh, we've, we've done some treatments, started using patients with gum disease. And . So that's, although initially, for example, with it should do gum treatment, you can reduce the [00:48:00] amount of certain bacteria that people who are predisposed to that hyper inflammatory genotype with time seem to go back and get the same bacteria that had initially the treatments seem to have since or have a transient effect.

[00:48:14] But then eventually, obviously the host genotype will still have an effect on which bacteria you have. But if you manage to revert to health for a certain period of time, then at least with gum disease, it might be easier to maintain that the number of pathogenic bacteria low so that you will not get disease again.

[00:48:34] So you may still get the same bacteria but not necessarily get disease.

[00:48:39] Carl Lanore: [00:48:39] This is really, I mean my mind is going a thousand miles an hour and multiple directions cause we know autoimmune diseases. Some people. Uh, develop autoimmune diseases and we know that they're closely linked to diet. We know, Oh, let let, let's say the, the progression is linked to die.

[00:48:54] We know that people with irritable bowel syndrome and stuff like that, when they eliminate, uh, [00:49:00] corn and grain and even soy from their diet, they seem to get better. And we also know that there's an interplay between what you eat and the microbial diversity. Inside the body. So this, this also feeds to why some people are susceptible to diseases that have an inflammatory response such as cancer and so on, and others aren't.

[00:49:21] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:49:21] Yes, absolutely. No, you're right. The diet is very important. So we're not talking about just the whole, you know, making the difference. It's the combination of factors that  plays an important role. But clearly diet is very important. Uh, there's no doubt about that. I mean,  specifically with gum disease, we are a bit behind.

[00:49:41] There are some studies now on, on diet. Good relation to gum disease, but not much. But obviously look out IBD, inflammatory bowel disease, there's quite a lot going on now. So lots of research efforts towards stuff. So that's something, uh, absolutely crucial, uh, how [00:50:00] diet can affect the composition of bacteria, because let's not forget 90% of the cells in our body are bacteria.

[00:50:07] And in terms of, did you know him? Uh, there's a huge genomic diversity in our body, which has nothing to do with our body as such. It's just the bacteria colonizing us. Uh, so they are in Oregon. They are very important Oregon, which makes, uh, makes out live really because, uh, they are vital flaws, but, uh, together with the commensal bacteria or the bacteria, which are indispensable for us.

[00:50:33] There are obviously a pathogenic bacteria or there are also parts of biryanis, so bacteria that can act as symbionts or can act as pathogen depending on the situation or depending on the individual.

[00:50:47] Carl Lanore: [00:50:47] W w we have to take a break. I've got so many good questions for you. We're going to take a quick commercial break.

[00:50:51] When we come back, we're going to pick it up on the other side. We're talking right now. We're talking right now. I'm sorry. I, I'm so excited. My mind, dr Luigi Nebali, we're talking about. [00:51:00] Genetic dysbiosis, the role of microbial insults in chronic inflammatory disease. You're listening to super human radio.

[00:51:06] Stay tuned. We'll be right back. Previously on superhuman radio. The reason this government loved Monsanto because we can no longer afford to do what we've been doing, which is giving everyone money to be our allies. The war against Monsanto continues and there's an old thing. He controlled the food, controlled the population.

[00:51:27] You don't have to lift a finger or point the gun to completely control the population. All your control. The food's super human radio with Carla Lenore. Weekdays it, and if you jump higher and wept and more, it's super human radio.

[00:51:49] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:51:49] I'm going to have to chase this to tell a stop

[00:51:50] Carl Lanore: [00:51:50] for a sec.

[00:51:51] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:51:51] Let's

[00:51:52] Carl Lanore: [00:51:52] do it. Welcome back. We're talking with dr Luigi to ballet. We're talking about [00:52:00] genetic dysbiosis, the continuation of discussions. About the microbes that live in our body and what they contribute to us and what we possibly contribute to them.

[00:52:13] You know, um, dr Nebali, when we did a show recently on a small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, uh, it became very, very clear to me that we, we feed the microbes in our body and they do us a favor and many cases, they actually help us metabolize certain foods. But in the worst cases. They spin off harmful molecules.

[00:52:38] Um, yeah. So, so is this what we're talking about here? When we talk about the, um, the genetic predisposition to accumulate certain types of, um, microbes in the body may actually present us with a situation where we are mismatched for our environment, what we're being exposed to, what we're eating.

[00:53:01] [00:53:00] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:53:01] Yes. Yeah.

[00:53:02] It's, it's the bacteria that are predisposing us to disease, if that's what you mean. And, uh, our genetic predisposition misspelled exposing us to having certain bacteria in our bodies. I think that there is a very good example on the effect of the Haas genome. And bacterial colonization, which is a about HIV because HIV, obviously it's a virus that enters the human cells throughout a specific receptor, which is the CCR five receptor.

[00:53:37] The interesting thing is that there are some gene variants in the gene coding for these CCR five receptor. Now, depending on your gene, Berrien. You can be more or less susceptible to HIV entry in your cells. So when, um, again, different people with different than I  [00:54:00] if they are subject to the same strain of HIV, they might respond in different ways.

[00:54:07] So there might be people that are more resistant to HIV and entering their cells than other people. So I think, and if you look, for example, people are Scandinavian origins, they seem to be less predisposed to having infection by HIV. Then, for instance, people of African origin because of the different, uh, genetic violence, a different prevalence of the genetic variance.

[00:54:33] So these gives a clear example of how that, you know, can affect the way bacteria can colonize our bodies. Uh, therefore, out of the, the billions of bacteria we have in our body, we all have different bacteria, different amounts, and different types of bacteria because we all individually have different, uh, host

[00:54:57] So we select the, the [00:55:00] bacteria that grow inside us, and that's, as you said, have very, uh, beneficial effects in some cases, but a not so beneficial in others.

[00:55:10] Carl Lanore: [00:55:10] Well, but, but, but the, the, the reason that it's not so beneficial and others, and here's, here's I guess what I was getting at, right? So we all have this, we all have this predisposition to have these specific microbes that are linked to our genetics in our body.

[00:55:24] What makes them, what makes them potentially good or bad is our environment. So in other words, if I, let's say I'm one of these people who is susceptible to an autoimmune disease because of my microbes. If I eat certain foods, I get the disease. If I don't eat those foods, I don't get the disease. So they, my microbial diversity and its linkage to the, our genetics is important to understand from the standpoint of maybe we can have a roadmap someday that says you need to stay away from these things because these things, your microbes don't like them.

[00:55:59] They're [00:56:00] going to produce toxic molecules that are going to poison your body.

[00:56:05] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:56:05] That's a, that's a very good point. I think, again, that's where we're, we're aiming, that's where we're heading, hopefully. Um, in theory at a genetic test that can tell you that you're more predisposed to grow certain bacteria, so you have to be more careful with certain foods you eat or certain other things you do.

[00:56:22] Like, I don't know, smoking or other habits or things like that. Ideally, yes, if we could develop it, these kinds of tests and that could tell you, um, or at least it can give you an idea of your susceptibilities to certain diseases. And your susceptibility to the damage that maybe having a specific diet can Coze then  the idea that that's what we would like to have in the future.

[00:56:50] As you said, it's very important to point out that not necessarily having one bacterium, you would then have a disease [00:57:00] and ultimately on disease or another disease, and this is what we see. Again, going back to gum disease. There are some very pathogenic bacteria that are able to cause a lot of damage to the gum and to the bone that holds the teeth.

[00:57:13] But sometimes we see these bacteria in the mouth of an absolutely. Absolutely. I'll see people, they'll have no gum disease whatsoever. So the bacteria might be there, but are other factors that are controlling its possible effect so you wouldn't get gum disease. And the same applies to other autoimmune diseases.

[00:57:36] Carl Lanore: [00:57:36] Well, what? What is, I'm looking at the paper right now and there's a couple of abbreviations that I'm not familiar with. What is P? S? P. S. it's a genetic. Okay, good. So this is great. This is, this is like con, this is like a eczema, psoriasis and so on. Talk about the relationship between a skin disorder like that and a dysbiosis.

[00:57:58] Please. [00:58:00] Yeah.

[00:58:00] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [00:58:00] So in the paper we focus on for, uh, uh, quite common, uh, human chronic diseases and one of which is periodontitis gum disease. One is inflammatory bowel disease, so like Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis. Um, one is bacterial vaginosis and one is psoriasis. Um, the interesting thing about psoriasis is that, again, recently in, in the last probably 10 years, the research has moved towards understanding which bacteria or if bacteria can play a role in initiating psoriasis.

[00:58:36] And it seems by looking at the differences between healthy skin and skin of patients with psoriasis. It seems like there are different bacteria leading on that skin. Um, when you do such a study, it's difficult to say whether the bacteria that are, that are positive or rather are the consequence of having a disease clearly.

[00:58:56] Um, so that more research needs to go into that. But, uh, [00:59:00] I think we have quite good preliminary data for psoriasis that say that the persons or specific bacteria can generate. And, uh, and an ultra immune response that would cause that this Kaleigh lesions typical of, of the skin of people with psoriasis.

[00:59:17] And, and the same applies to other autoimmune diseases. Um, for example, one, uh, where research is focusing now is rheumatoid. I've tried to, again, it's a very important, relevant and common disease. And again, interestingly, it seems like there might be certain bacteria which caused a loss of immunological tolerance.

[00:59:40] So if you have, uh, the bacterium in, in this case, uh, is called  ginger violates, it's a bacterium that lives in the mouth, especially under the gums. It's an anaerobic bacteria that obviously survives without oxygen, preferably. And, um. It seems like having this [01:00:00] bacteria in your body at a certain level. So certain it be this bacterium can close and new reaction that doesn't affect only the mouth, but can actually affect the rest of the body and can cause a loss of the immunological tolerance to other bacteria.

[01:00:16] So something shifts in the immune system. So why is. Initially, possibly you had bacteria that your body could tolerate and was not bothered about hunting these bacteria. Suddenly something switches because of the microbial insults and suddenly your body doesn't recognize certain bacteria and decides to act against them.

[01:00:38] And that's obviously ultimately in disease.

[01:00:42] Carl Lanore: [01:00:42] Very interesting. And, and bacterial vaginitis is a problem that some women experience. And quite often the, the. The most embarrassing part of it is a odor and discharge. And this, I've always suspected that this had to do with, um, some sort of improper, [01:01:00] uh, uh, microbial accumulation, uh, in the vagina.

[01:01:03] And then the, a lot of women turn to something like a douche, which may actually promote the problem to a greater degree by killing everything that's in there

[01:01:12] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:01:12] right. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, there are good bacteria that need to be there to prevent  noses. Um, so it's the balance between the bacteria and again, looking at the genetic factors influencing that.

[01:01:26] And now there's quite a lot of research on, uh, inflammatory genes. So genes that predispose to having more inflammation that seem to be, uh, predisposing to the growth of certain bacteria and they have a dine and therefore. So the onset of bacterial vaginosis, similar to all the other diseases that we've been talking about, right?

[01:01:47] It's really the same concept. So you don't want to wipe out completely the bacterial communities that, um, that's not what's needed because the competition between the good and the bad bacteria and, and [01:02:00] normally the Marlins that one can have is crucial. Um, so it's like, um. Like in the mouth is the same thing.

[01:02:07] You don't, you need to have bacteria there in the gut. You need to have the good bacteria and possibly you need to try and promote the good bacteria as as much as one can.

[01:02:18] Carl Lanore: [01:02:18] We're going to take a quick commercial break. When we come back, I want to ask you, there's a lot of talk nowadays about Michael mycotoxins and fungal toxins, and there's even some people out there who postulate that fungus's are responsible.

[01:02:32] For the changes that occur in the mitochondria that switch it to anaerobic glycolysis that lead to cancer. I want to understand is there, is there. Our, our fungus is and the microbes that infest our body in any way similar. We're talking right now with dr Luigi, Anna Bali. We're talking about genetic dysbiosis.

[01:02:53] You're listening to super human radio. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. Previously on superhuman radio with Carla [01:03:00] nor so government mandates the use of this. And government said is, you should try that, but government doesn't do those things. Listen, weekdays at noon, Hey, this is batch. It's super human radio.

[01:03:17] Welcome back to super human radio. We're talking right now with dr Luigi anabolic. We're talking about genetic dysbiosis. So dr Bali, our fungus is the same thing, is the microbes that occupy our body.

[01:03:34] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:03:34] Well, Sandra says, potentially they, they seem to also be associated with disease. And, uh, as I mentioned before, um, there is some recent research which is, uh, uh,  potentially we cancer.

[01:03:49] Um, it, it wasn't, uh, specifically the micro doc things, uh, rather than the Pharisees themselves. And it's a product of fungus's. [01:04:00] Um, there's wasn't really, um, part of the research we conducted on with, we're not really involved in much on research on Pangasius, so I wouldn't really be able to explain the details of that, but potentially, I think it, it's the same, um, the same style we really asked for bacteria.

[01:04:17] Because the link with cancer, uh, is, is very important. Cause we know that bacteria can potentially predispose to cancer directly bacteria or more than bacteria, viruses, weed, bio, oncogene, or they can have an indirect action because by promoting chronic inflammation and also DNA damage, uh, they can actually produce some carcinogenic carcinogenics metabolites, which can predispose to cancer.

[01:04:46] But again, one of the things we looked into is the possible effect of the host genome into the presence of bacteria that can then cause a development of cancer. And that's, for example, like a [01:05:00] Helicobacter hepatic, um, and, and other bacteria, uh, especially for, for liver cancer. Uh, so there is certainly a lots of interest in these now.

[01:05:11] Uh, and we know a lot more now than we. New say 10 years ago on the possible, uh, microbiome cause of cancer.

[01:05:21] Carl Lanore: [01:05:21] What exactly is a, a term that I found in your paper that really intrigued me was infect though genomics. What is if in fact all genomics.

[01:05:33] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:05:33] In fact, the genomics has been defined as the effect of the host genome on bacterial colonization and bacteria proliferation in the human body.

[01:05:44] So it's quite similar to the concept of these bios. It's something that came before really the concept of genetic dysbiosis. So we'd infect the genomics. We know that we have a genome that affects that infection in our body. And [01:06:00] as I gave you the example of the HIV, it's, it's more or less these really.

[01:06:04] So when we come in contact with the, with the bacterium or with a virus, we will respond in a different way depending on how our house, you know. But it's not just in the colonization, and so it's not just in the infection moment. It's also later on in the colonization. Uh, so the host genome affects then the way that bacteria, after they enter the Situs or after they enter our body, how they would call an, uh, how they would, they would proliferate in our body.

[01:06:33] So that, that's the term. In fact, the genomics, genetic dysbiosis is a sort of a further development from infected genomics. Because it's not really talking about one specific bacteria or one specific infection. I looked actually at the effect of the Husky numb on biofilms, which is a lot more complex because we know that, uh, the biofilms are very complex.

[01:06:57] Structures do [01:07:00] characterized by a combination of different bacteria in different areas of our body. Uh, so the biofilm is a very complex thing. Um, this bio, this means a change in mental composition of the healthy biofilm. Um, so Y normally we know there might be some pathogenic bacteria that within a biofilm do not cause harmful effects.

[01:07:27] Then when there is a dysbiosis, then there is maybe an increase in the prevalence of certain bacteria or a shift anyway within that biofilm that suddenly suddenly becomes potentially pathogenic.

[01:07:40] Carl Lanore: [01:07:40] You know, it's interesting. So we did a show one time, uh, we've done several shows about milk in general formulas, uh, and especially, uh, mother's milk, breast milk, and one of the shows we did, um.

[01:07:54] We talked about the biofilms in mother's milk and breast milk [01:08:00] sequesters the HIV virus, so that it's not passed on to the baby. And when we talk about biofilms, we're basically talking about these microbes, right? Yup, yup.

[01:08:10] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:08:10] Yeah, the here, it's something that you would have, for example, on your skin. It's something you would have in your mouth.

[01:08:15] Um, so it's several layers of bacteria, which really almost act as an Oregon. They have very important functions, so it aggregates some bacteria. It's not lose bacteria. Like for example, if you look at your teeth. On your teeth. If you look with the microscope, you would find several layers of bacteria that aggregate one on top of the other.

[01:08:38] And the biofilms are very important because within the biofilms there are different roles. So again, on the teeth, a certain bacteria which are very good at sticking to the T, so they are the ones that would, that would grow immediately on the tooth surface. Other bacteria, uh, have certain characteristics which makes them very good at sticking to other bacteria and so on.

[01:08:59] So you end up [01:09:00] having like 300 layers of bacteria, one on top of the other, which all have a very important function. And they all act synergistically between, between each other. They all have their functions within the biofilm,

[01:09:14] Carl Lanore: [01:09:14] you know, um, one of the things that I've learned about evolution over the past 4.6 million years is that.

[01:09:22] Um, we did not have cavities until we started to farm. And part of the problem with farming was we, um, we focused on crops one crop. Where were we when we were Hunter gatherers? We accumulated lots of different things, tubers and, and, uh, you know, and so on. And, uh, nuts. And we ate a lot of different things.

[01:09:49] We had a very, very diverse. Uh, intake when and of course, animal proteins and so on and go hand in hand with that. The, when we, when we became, uh, [01:10:00] more tied to agriculture and farming, we would just grow one crop potatoes, for instance. And we always grew crops, it seems that had high starch content. And when we started eating these single.

[01:10:18] Of crop diets that happened to be high in starches. That is when we started to develop cavities. Prior to that, they couldn't find any examples of cavities in. I wanna say it started at homo erectus, but I could be wrong. And so the reason I'm saying this is because we come back to this notion that there is some sort of symbiotic interplay between our diet.

[01:10:46] And the microbes. We've done shows that have, uh, had suppositions that say, well, your diet actually influences the predisposition of microbes. [01:11:00] Any thoughts on that?

[01:11:03] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:11:03] Yes. I mean, the, the evolutionary, uh, element of days I think is extremely fascinating because obviously if you look back at the historical times, you would find, as you said, a, a huge difference in our diet.

[01:11:19] And therefore in the diseases we have, uh, because we need to think that, uh, the humans and bacteria and viruses, heart call evolved. Um. And our diet has had an important effect on which bacteria we had and which viruses evolved. Uh, obviously the advantage that bacteria and viruses have is that they evolved much faster than we do, so they can adapt to all sorts of different circumstances because of the day they have offspring much faster than we do.

[01:11:54] Um, but clearly if you look at the diet, um. [01:12:00] That makes made a big difference. And, uh, one example would be, again, if you look at the inflammatory bowel disease, um, many people would ask the question, now how come in inflammatory bowel disease is so common now? Cause you keep hearing about Crohn's disease and the increase in the prevalence of currencies.

[01:12:21] And it seems like there are some theories that that is linked to diet and bacteria. For example, a specific, uh, when men started, uh, having milk, um, they started having infections due to meal cause well, so people know were hyper inflammatory, so they had a harder inflammatory genotype were able actually to survive that infections due to infected milk.

[01:12:52] Um, and these made these as selected individually now to be high for inflammatory, [01:13:00] if you understand it, the concept, than if I made myself clear. But, uh, so hyper inflammatory people that survived the infection linked with drinking milk, um, survived had offsprings. So now there's a higher prevalence of people with hyper inflammatory genotype.

[01:13:20] Hence, there's a higher prevalence of inflammatory bowel disease.

[01:13:24] Carl Lanore: [01:13:24] So, so what ways, what you're saying basically is what you're saying basically is not everything that we have selected for is good for us.

[01:13:32] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:13:32] Yes. Obviously our diets as selected in, in a group in a bad way, uh, so to speak. Um, so I did positive and negative effects of diet linked with bacteria.

[01:13:44] This is an example of how diet was linked with bacteria. Um, because clearly the evolution of, of the human disease is very interesting. If you look at the prevalence of disease in the past and prevalence now and clearly linked, uh, [01:14:00] with diet. Definitely. And again, going back to the example of teeth, um, in prehistorical times, so you would, you would find, uh, the teeth would be very ground, but hardly any cavities, hardly any gum disease.

[01:14:16] Probably.

[01:14:20] Carl Lanore: [01:14:20] Um, I want to take our last commercial break. What I want to do when we come back is just try to, uh, discuss, you know, there's, there's, um, there's a growing trend of people taking probiotics and prebiotics now because we understand the importance of gut health, but it doesn't speak to diversity because there are some who say.

[01:14:42] That our microbe microbial environment was much more diverse a long time ago, and it's becoming less and less diverse, number one. And number two, if you think that there are really any benefits to, um, pumping a certain microbe of, I guess [01:15:00] the term is Fila into the body in an effort to try to overcome some of these problems.

[01:15:05] We're going to take a quick commercial break and we'll be right back. There's something comforting about knowing he's out there. Government is in place because it assumes that people are too stupid to care for themselves by your side. The government has to take up the parental role of teaching people what to do, fighting the good fight government has to get out of people's pantries.

[01:15:25] First of all, they can't legislate. Hell, he's Carl Lenore on super Cuban. Yes, younger. It's super human radio.

[01:15:40] Welcome back to superego radio. You know, uh, dr , we, um, we have a sponsor on the show that I invited to come on the show after I started using that product and it's called aura MD, and it's a, um, and natural botanical oil blend. [01:16:00] That doesn't have any, anything that typical toothpaste has in it. And so I, I use it and I went to the dentist just recently for my, uh, six month cleaning.

[01:16:12] And the hygienist said to me, you know, your gums have never looked better, and I'm not plugging the product. I want to be clear about something. This is not a, an infomercial, but what I want to say is. It's, it's clear to me, my, my gums were getting bad. I was getting a lot of plaque beneath the gumline and I was having, uh, um, uh, some minor bleeding when I would brush and I use a ultrasonic toothbrush.

[01:16:38] And since using or MD for about a year now, the pockets have gotten more, less deep or shallower. My gums look better. So clearly. There are certain things that we can do to predispose, predispose this environment to a more beneficial [01:17:00] microbial balance. Would you agree with that statement? Sure.

[01:17:04] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:17:04] Yeah.

[01:17:05] Absolutely. There's something we can do. And now if we look from a purely scientific point of view, so if we look at the evidence from the studies, we know that the single thing that makes the biggest difference is the compliance of the patient. So how well you actually brush the teeth. So mechanical brushing and the importance of using floss or incidental dust

[01:17:25] That's the single thing that makes the biggest difference. Then there might be a junks that are, uh, anti-microbials or a mouthwash or this space. This cannot be a dancer. Clearly could potentially have an effect depending on, on the content. Uh, although we need to stress, and the most important thing is.

[01:17:45] Actually the way you brush your teeth. So important to see a hygienist, to, to actually learn how to brush your teeth properly and not necessarily just brush the outside parts of your teeth, but brush all around the teeth and especially the [01:18:00] interdental in between teeth. So the mechanical action to remove the plaque that gets stuck in between the teeth is absolutely crucial to prevent gum disease.

[01:18:10] So, yeah, no matter what our genetic predisposition is, there's a lot that we can do to prevent gum disease, certainly as well as clearly other chronic diseases and lifestyle and, uh, the, the, how much we care about our heads is probably missing the most important thing.

[01:18:29] Carl Lanore: [01:18:29] What about the use of probiotics in general?

[01:18:33] Obviously. There, the diversity of the microbes in the gut are probably vast compared to, you know, the eight, 12 or 16, uh, unique microbes that are being sold today over the counter and probiotic blends. Um, are these adequate introducing, most of them are lactase, um, and, uh, based, uh, microbes. Are these adequate or are we, are we, I, are we just [01:19:00] throwing a handful of grass seed on a.

[01:19:02] On an acre of land and expecting it to affect the, the, the whole land.

[01:19:07] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:19:07] I think that's a very good analogy or making it, and that reminds me of maybe about 10, 12 years ago when, uh, um, some groups in, in Europe, uh, started doing some research on the use of probiotics in gum disease. And at the time we were all very excited about that.

[01:19:25] We thought, okay, this is the newest frontier. And now, now, probably we're going to. Apply some, uh, probiotic compounds under the gums of people. Then we're going to stop the gum disease from continuing. Now, these was 10 plus years ago, and really it's been quite discouraging that since then, we haven't really had any good evidence to say that.

[01:19:48] That's good work. Um, there is some initial evidence in animal models that potentially you can, uh, reduce certain bacteria if you apply lactobacilli [01:20:00] lie under the gum line. Um, but as you said, it's, there are so many bacteria and it's probably quite difficult to affect them, uh, with some applications of, of probiotics.

[01:20:11] I think for, um. For the gospel or inflammatory bowel disease. Again, there's a lot going on at the moment about it, which seems quite promising. Uh, but in terms of, of clear evidence, I think with , uh, uh, way behind to actually be able to advise the use of probiotics. Uh, for many diseases. So as I said, I think it's very promising.

[01:20:35] Maybe we will get there in some years. Um, but at the moment, I wouldn't be sure that we have an answer.

[01:20:42] Carl Lanore: [01:20:42] I, I take, I take a probiotic called VSL three, and each pouch contains 450 billion. Um, uh, eight unique, uh. Probiotic blend. It's eight [01:21:00] non-overlapping noncompeting but they're all lactase based probiotics.

[01:21:05] And I just got back from Mexico and the past two nights I've actually taken four pouches, which is almost 2 trillion, you know? And I think to myself, that's gotta be nothing. There's supposed to be like six pounds of microbes in my body. What can this really contribute?

[01:21:24] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:21:24] You know? Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that's, it's a good point.

[01:21:28] It's a good sign. And I think, uh, the thing is that we've, we still know very little. There are still a lot of microbes in our body then. We don't really know. They are not capable, so we have no clue what they are. And we knew a microbial techniques now are making enormous progress in the way we understand the microbiome.

[01:21:52] Uh, compared to some years ago. So we are learning more and more, and, uh, we are finding out about new bacteria. We had no idea existed, [01:22:00] um, which might have a role in health and disease. So at the moment really is our knowledge is, is very limited. Therefore, whatever we can do about it, it's very limited, I think.

[01:22:11] Carl Lanore: [01:22:11] Yeah. What do you hope that both clinicians and lay people take away from your research.

[01:22:18] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:22:18] I think it's, um, what they can take away is the fact that the knowledge that, uh, the Haas, you know, makes a big difference in the way we handle bacteria. So in the way, um, we are predisposed to harden disease, but at the same time, I think that's what for the public, that the most important messages is that.

[01:22:40] Certain bacteria in our body can actually cause diseases. And again, going back to the rheumatoid arthritis example, it might be closed by an oral bacteria. So taking care of our. Hygiene. Oral hygiene in this respect is very important. Not just [01:23:00] to prevent gum disease, but potentially to prevent other diseases.

[01:23:03] So the importance of a, of a good lifestyle, a good diet, clearly, and are really looking after our Saturday. Uh, that's the most important thing cause yes, the host genome is very important, but there's a lot that we can do even if we are predisposed to certain diseases. Yeah.

[01:23:20] Carl Lanore: [01:23:20] I love it. Good research.

[01:23:22] Fantastic. And I want to thank you so much.

[01:23:25] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:23:25] Thank you very much. Thank you for

[01:23:27] Carl Lanore: [01:23:27] all the way from Italy. You're in Italy right now, right?

[01:23:30] Dr. Luigi Nibali: [01:23:30] I am in Italy right now, but yeah, I work at, uh, in London university college, London. That's where the research took place and that's where we stayed. Working on it.

[01:23:41] Carl Lanore: [01:23:41] Ah, you're insistently that my fiance is from Sicily.

[01:23:43] Proforma. Her last name is P. R. O. F. U. M. our performance,

[01:23:50] you know, you know what they say about million women that you can't, if they go to sleep mad, you wake up with a knife in your chest. I listen. I [01:24:00] want to thank you very, very much for being on the show. This is great research and please.

[01:24:08] Thank you. Have a great day. I so they have it. Also, we want to thank, um, dr, uh, net Langer, Gould, uh, for coming on and talking about the linkage between hormonal contraceptives and multiple sclerosis susceptibility. And then of course, dr Natalie Raskin, uh, for talking about the effects of continuing hormone therapy on cerebral function in postmenopausal women at risk of dementia.

[01:24:35] And we have great shows planned for the rest of the week. Thank you for listening today. And we'll see you tomorrow

[01:25:26] [01:25:00] is the superhuman channel where brawn and brains finally meet .