[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] Hey, Hey, open up the mic. Carl. Welcome back to, excuse me. Another episode of superhuman radio. Today is January 15th, 2020. Uh, and, uh. I have to acknowledge our title sponsor legendary foods, who makes a generous a grant to the show that keeps it running. And, uh, I promise you that January 24th, legendary foods is going to change, uh, the, uh, sports nutrition, uh, industry once again.

[00:00:37] Why? Say once again. Because the, the brain power and the heart behind legendary foods is none other than the dynamic duo of a Shannan Yorton Penna and Ron Penna, and just the way Shannan conceived the quest protein bar in her kitchen, she has conceived some amazing things and a one of those will be revealed on January 24th you're [00:01:00] going to want to sit tight for this one cause it's going to be big.

[00:01:03] And then a bunch of companies will come out and try to follow them cause that's what they always do. Uh, also, I have to sadly, uh, acknowledge that, uh, a, a friend who I met through Facebook and actually produced a podcast called beating brain cancer. Um, Phil James and, uh, Andrew Scarborough from the UK. Uh, Phil James, I found out just now.

[00:01:31] Um. Passed away last week, as many of you know, he was in remission, uh, from brain cancer. He was pioneering and, uh, along with, uh. Andrew, the whole, uh, ketogenic diet and the treatment of brain cancer area. He saved his own life doing it. But what ended up happening was he ended up developing a secondary, uh, tumor, which Andrew Scarborough explained to me, [00:02:00] uh, is common, uh, in, uh, brain cancer patients who have received, uh, radiation, uh, that they can actually develop another tumor later on.

[00:02:09] And he did. And sadly, uh, he succumbed to it. He survived by his wife, Nicola, and a brand new baby girl named Phoebe. And so there's a couple of ways we could look at this. We could say it's so sad. Um. And it is sad that he is survived by this brand new baby girl. And, uh, but in reality, he is left a part of himself behind, uh, for the world.

[00:02:37] And I'm sure Phoebe will be every bit as gracious and humble and kind as her father. And hopefully, uh, those of us who loved Phil, uh, we'll reach out to her and let her know, uh, the impact that her dad had on, uh, many people suffering from brain cancer. And so let's say for those of you who remember Phil James, keep them in your [00:03:00] heart and your prayers, and now we move on to another subject.

[00:03:04] And for that, I'm joined by none other than my brother from another mother. How you doing Joel? Joel green.

[00:03:13] Joel Greene: [00:03:13] Hey Carl, I'm good. Thanks for having me on again.

[00:03:16] Carl Lanore: [00:03:16] So this, this is how Joel and I come to the conclusion that we have to do a show right before I go to sleep at night. I'll text them a message usually about some thought I have about nutrition, because while all these dieticians and experts are out there, I go to Joel because Joel has a much deeper understanding of, of nutrition, goal oriented nutrition.

[00:03:38] That's a very important word there. You know. Um, everybody has different goals and your nutrition has to apply to your goals. And so, um, I have a good friend whose name I will, we'll just leave out of it and the guy is a beast. I'll play a little video of him later on in the show so you know that [00:04:00] I'm talking about it.

[00:04:00] A real person. And he has, um, suffered from severe anxiety the past couple of weeks, like life. Life derailing anxiety, and he's been, he's been a strong kedo a guy for the past year. He's been a strong, intimate and fast and guy for the past year, and we determined that his anxiety as a result of blood sugar management, how could that be?

[00:04:25] The guys on kedo, he's intimate and fasting. He's doing all the things that we say, Oh, this is, this is the only way to eat. This is the only way to eat. And his, his, his, his metabolic processes have crashed. So I texted Joel, I'm a littler, he's laying in bed. Elisa's go and turn your phone off. I said, wait a second, I gotta send Joel a message while the thought is in my head.

[00:04:47] I said, Joel, do you remember back in the day we used to talk about fed state? Back in the day, the early bodybuilders, we believed that eating five, six, sometimes even eight [00:05:00] small meals every couple hours, kept the body in a fed state and somehow. The body said, Oh, we're not struggling to find food. We find food easily.

[00:05:13] We can let this fat go. And since muscle is so metabolically expensive, there's no fear in building muscle. And this is what every single bodybuilder has built. Their 300 pound, 0% body fat bought, of course drugs too. But that, that's the protocol. And back in the day, we used to do that. Now today. We have Oh, time restricted feeding is the only way.

[00:05:34] It's your probe oil. Kettle was the only way. And I said, Joel, is there any truth to that whole fed state? And he says, well, the way you're positioning it isn't really accurate, but your suggestion is correct. So let's talk about this phenomenon. What exactly is fed state and w and the body's perception of access and availability to food?

[00:05:55] Joel Greene: [00:05:55] So sorry about that. The first thing we have to. [00:06:00] Define is what? What are we, what are we looking for? What's the outcome that we want?

[00:06:04] Carl Lanore: [00:06:04] Right?

[00:06:04] Joel Greene: [00:06:04] Okay. So if the outcome is growth, then there's imagine two train tracks. Imagine one train track, uh, is how your body actually works. Okay? The other train track is what really happens over time.

[00:06:22] Not the BS fitness fantasy, but what

[00:06:25] Carl Lanore: [00:06:25] really happened.

[00:06:26] Joel Greene: [00:06:26] Overtime and your train has to run on those tracks and I promise you, if you're, if you're not dealing with what's true about your body and you're not dealing with what really happens over time, then your going to wind up like the guy you're talking about guaranteed because you're not dealing

[00:06:44] Carl Lanore: [00:06:44] with truth.

[00:06:46] Joel Greene: [00:06:46] So the modern era today, we have as just has gotten so far away from what is true about the body, how the body works. That. Um, I was excited to do this show because we can take it, we can take the time here to [00:07:00] unpack what's really true. And so, to begin with your question, the fed state, we have to look at how the body works.

[00:07:07] So when we look at how does the body work, when we feed it food, if the goal is growth, and we have to look at what's called the map K pathway. Okay? So map K pathway stands for mitogen activated protein kinase. It's a protein that governs cell cycles. And in my book, I make the point that what we think of as cells are really computers.

[00:07:33] And when you look at cells, they actually, they process digitally and coded instructions. They make decisions, they process signals from noise. They do all the things computers do. One of the most important decisions cells make is the decision to continue to divide and grow or not, or to die. And controlling that as a whole family of proteins.

[00:07:55] Um, principally under what's known as transforming growth factor beta. [00:08:00] But specifically mapK , mapK  is activated every time you eat. So every time you wheat, you activate the map K pathway. As long as insulin is produced, it's on insulin is produced, mapK  is activated and mapK  regulates growth. So when you look at muscle and you look at STEM cells and you go, well, what do they need to grow?

[00:08:24] They need activation of map K. now when you look at that and that truth, that's just how things work. You know, we can't change it, right? There's a couple of things that are interesting. One is that you can stimulate growth from either side of the

[00:08:38] Carl Lanore: [00:08:38] equation. Okay?

[00:08:39] Joel Greene: [00:08:39] So the principle way to stimulate growth is food.

[00:08:43] Food and growth go together. Energy and growth go together. The reason being that for cells to grow, they have to make some decisions. They have to decide,

[00:08:51] Carl Lanore: [00:08:51] do we

[00:08:52] Joel Greene: [00:08:52] have the resources needed to power the reactions to grow. Okay. And does the cells, um, [00:09:00] power output meet a certain level and a bunch of other boxes and the cells have to check.

[00:09:04] Okay. In order to proceed through their cell cycles when it comes to muscle and satellite cells and STEM cells in particular. The way that we maintain the stemness of STEM cells has a lot to do with feeding cycles and growth and also cessation of feeding cycles. So the CDOT acetate will activate, um, a key protein in the mapK  family.

[00:09:30] Okay. That protein is called E. R. K one half. When you finish working out, ERK one half activates and it goes up after your workout and then it goes down. And when you get older, what happens is it doesn't really go up and then it kind of stays elevated. So the is in young bodies. ERK activates, you get sore, your prepare older bodies, you just get sore.

[00:09:55] That's what happens. Okay. Sorry. It's still acetate, which is a [00:10:00] ketone body has been shown to maintain the stemness of satellite cells and muscle by activating ERK. All right, so that is the starvation equation. On the other side of the equation. To get growth, you need to activate the map K pathway. So if you want to grow and you want muscle to grow, then activation of mapK , which is induced by feeding is how you do that.

[00:10:26] So that's kind of the technical breakdown, but that's how the body works. And we have to start with truth, which is, this is how things work. So in

[00:10:33] Carl Lanore: [00:10:33] the old way we could, we could select our diet, which is probably the only species on the planet that actually. Selects our diet because of availability of food.

[00:10:42] Back when we were Hunter gatherers, we were pretty much like other animals, just what was available at the time. Uh, we would, we would use as food, but this idea that now we can actually choose the way we eat, choose what we eat, choose when we eat it. [00:11:00] A lot of it probably is counter to what the body actually wants.

[00:11:05] Joel Greene: [00:11:05] Yeah. A hundred a hundred percent so. Part of the problem that we're in today, we have a lot of advice that is going out and it's based on something someone read in a study and the reality is they haven't applied that advice for a long time. They just simply haven't done it long enough. Right. The longterm effects of that advice and the reason I'm here, the reason I exist, the reason this exists.

[00:11:32] Is because of my own experiences with what you would call intermittent fasting in the early nineties what happened over a five six, seven year period and everything I did pass that came from those experiences because it's so messed me up. It's so messed up my eating patterns, it took years to fix that.

[00:11:49] I just wanted to know what I had done. So we're in this stage where a lot of stuff is new to a lot of people. And those people put themselves under the Aegis of advice givers read [00:12:00] something and study, and they go out and apply it and they make a course on it and they propagate it, but they haven't

[00:12:05] Carl Lanore: [00:12:05] done it

[00:12:05] Joel Greene: [00:12:05] long enough to understand what's going to happen.

[00:12:08] Most things in biology look like this. The, the initial curve goes up. Oh, I'm gonna try to get a finger on the

[00:12:13] Carl Lanore: [00:12:13] camera.

[00:12:15] Joel Greene: [00:12:15] This is tricky. All right, so the initial curve goes up. And then,

[00:12:19] Carl Lanore: [00:12:19] well, you gotta do it like this. You gotta go stay over here. Wait a second. This is what I could use this, hold on. Got, do it now.

[00:12:28] Do it now. The initial curve goes up. So

[00:12:31] Joel Greene: [00:12:31] the initial curve, okay, I need to sign

[00:12:33] Carl Lanore: [00:12:33] here.

[00:12:34] Joel Greene: [00:12:34] Initial curve goes up and then longterm goes down. Okay? Okay. That's true. Everything. Almost everything in biology. That's true. Right? So what you'll see is drugs, for example, you get on a, you get in on a drug SSRI reuptake inhibitor.

[00:12:47] So there's that immediate pot

[00:12:48] Carl Lanore: [00:12:48] you got, right. And so that's

[00:12:50] Joel Greene: [00:12:50] typically what gets measured in studies is the pot. But what they're not measuring is the tail. And the little is where the real story happens. So my own story is in the, uh, in the, [00:13:00] uh, 1991. Uh, Jeff Everson published a, um, a working metrics came out.

[00:13:07] Jeff Everson published an article saying that he was eating one meal a day in the evening, and then it was just taking metrics during the day if he was hungry. And so, and I, I, uh, I knew already that Herschel Walker had been doing that for years and I was a big fan of his.

[00:13:20] Carl Lanore: [00:13:20] So

[00:13:21] Joel Greene: [00:13:21] I went on doing that. And so I was doing what you would call intermittent fasting, cheating in the evening.

[00:13:27] And then I was just doing metrics if I was hungry. And so the pop was, I was ripped to the bone. I mean, I've been a competitive track and field athlete, so I know my body fat levels when they're really like, like in the low one, 2% I've been there and

[00:13:40] Carl Lanore: [00:13:40] I was

[00:13:41] Joel Greene: [00:13:41] probably about four or five. Percent body fat for years, like three, four years.

[00:13:47] I was very late and I was an advice giver, so people would ask me, what are you doing? And I would be like, Oh, you know, I just, I just one meal a day in the evenings and then I take this, that

[00:13:55] Carl Lanore: [00:13:55] stuff and look at me. Right? What happened was,

[00:13:59] Joel Greene: [00:13:59] right [00:14:00] about 1996 I started eating uncontrollably about five years into doing this, and I couldn't stop, and I had never had issues with food and just what I had done.

[00:14:11] What I know now. I had so mimic starvation, but there was a longterm response in my body and it took literally five, six years to fix of just overeating because of all of the quote unquote intermittent fasting time restricted feeding that I've been doing. So the reality is we're in this sort of short term bloom on the Rose, but nobody measured the tail.

[00:14:32] And that's the real truth.

[00:14:34] Carl Lanore: [00:14:34] And this, this sounds very similar to our discussion on the ketogenic diet, that longterm ketogenic diets tell the body you're starving. And we know that because they literally change a micro RNA in the germline, in, in the mother's ovum, and, and, and in the father's sperm. So we know we, we think that diet is a, Oh, if I, if I look good, it's working and I'm happy.

[00:15:00] [00:15:00] But we don't realize that it encodes everything in the body. If you're of childbearing years, it encodes everything in the body because it, it's, it's trying to be predictive and say, this child is going to be born into an environment where there seems to only be fat to eat, so how do we, how do we build this child to best survive?

[00:15:20] This would is considered a hostile environment to your body. Am I correct with that? That synopsis.

[00:15:27] Joel Greene: [00:15:27] You've been doing something really interesting, which is all of the other things that no one's really bringing into the equation that matter. And all these things fall under the umbrella of how your body really works, which is another way of saying truth.

[00:15:38] Okay? So you brought up micro RNs. There's, um, an entirely new field that is looking at, um, proteins in the blood. As

[00:15:48] Carl Lanore: [00:15:48] more predictive

[00:15:49] Joel Greene: [00:15:49] than anything else for things like aging, for example, there is a new study that

[00:15:55] Carl Lanore: [00:15:55] came out. I just saw it. I know. Go ahead. Yeah,

[00:15:58] Joel Greene: [00:15:58] yeah. It's in my book, I talk [00:16:00] about it. It's the three waves of aging, and so the old idea is that we can measure aging by looking at DNA methylation, and then there's, there's newer studies and conflicting studies that show that while we can get better estimations of how we, age by serum, by camp.

[00:16:17] Well, glycoproteins in the blood, right? Well, there's even newer studies now that show that by measuring very specific proteins in the blood, they've been able to determine that. We basically age in three phases, uh, right around 34 right around 60 and right around 78 the three waves of aging. And what this gets to is circulating proteins in the blood and very specific proteins have a very massive impact on the body and they have a very massive impact on self cell programming via.

[00:16:44] Exposome mediated RNs, extra songs or little, little cellular vesicles that pop into the bloodstream and go out and reprogram cells. And they, they, they work with, um, the process of transcription. So they make proteins more likely to be developed. So we really have not [00:17:00] begun to measure all of the factors in this equation.

[00:17:03] Is, is the net of that, and then just to bounce an idea back to you. What we're really talking about here are what are the master regulators

[00:17:13] Carl Lanore: [00:17:13] of the body?

[00:17:14] Joel Greene: [00:17:14] What are the master regulators of the body? You can't have this discussion without tiny, so you cannot, you cannot get to how the body works and please start to talk about diurnal rhythm, seven day rhythm, and then seasonal rhythm.

[00:17:28] Those are real very real things. And where this takes us to is what is the impact of these things on diurnal rhythm? Does it impact seven day rhythm? And are there larger seasonal rhythms that we need to be thinking about and working with?

[00:17:44] Carl Lanore: [00:17:44] So it's, it's interesting that you say seasonal before. A couple thoughts.

[00:17:48] These are these abstract thoughts. They may not play into this discussion, but before the 40,000 year ago, initiation of, of agricultural, uh, [00:18:00] techniques and animal husbandry, we, okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I could be wrong about what I'm about to say. But every single carbohydrate source is plant-based.

[00:18:13] Everyone there, there's no animal carbohydrates, right? Uh, no. Our bodies

[00:18:20] Joel Greene: [00:18:20] mate, just quick note that taps into, um, glycone, which is an entire. Five shows in a row

[00:18:30] Carl Lanore: [00:18:30] to talk

[00:18:30] Joel Greene: [00:18:30] about that. It's not looked at, it's just something that has been taken on account. But our bodies run on sugar proteins and they're as, or more important than DNA we make in our body.

[00:18:41] But that's a separate topic. But apart

[00:18:43] Carl Lanore: [00:18:43] from that, no, you're correct. But, but, but, but, so that means that if people really want to pay attention, so, so we have people out there that want to do the paleo diet and, and, and there was a, a seasonal phasic influence. In our ancestors' ability [00:19:00] to have access to certain foods.

[00:19:02] And if you, if you came from climates where there was a winter, then there was probably at least four or five months, you ate no carbs, you had no carbs. But then once things started growing again, you started eating carbs. So when you look at the ketogenic diet. People who do it year in and year out, which my friend was doing, and he's literally like last night was the first good night's sleep he had because we've been working on some, some, some approaches, but if you just do kettle all the time, and we've covered this in other shows and people need to go listen to that show, but you're going to be destined to literally erode your body.

[00:19:40] So what can we say about intermittent fasting then. So we, we start out with this, uh, what I used to like to call a more ancestral feeding style, but, but our ancestors, they didn't have access to food all the time. So should we go back and act like that because I've now switched back. [00:20:00] Um, first of all, I don't need caffeine anymore because when I have my first meal in the morning, I wake up.

[00:20:07] I literally feel awake after having that meal. And so I'm now eating five to six small meals a day, and these are small, 40 grams of protein, some some broccoli, and, and, uh, 10 to 12 grams of, of rice. Carbohydrate rather and from rice. And I gotta tell ya, I don't get filled up from any of the meals. I have more energy all day long.

[00:20:34] I feel better. And some of the things that have been haunting me for the past, cause I, I've been doing intimate and fasting since 2011 like really sincerely. I was talking to Elisa about it and that's really when I started doing it. And I've been doing it ever since. Ever since I went back to five to six small meals a day.

[00:20:53] There's some niggling little problems. I've had that going away, which makes me think, wait a minute. Maybe my [00:21:00] constant intimate and fasting was doing the same thing as the Zella to say, no, you gotta be kettle all the time. Yeah. Um,

[00:21:10] Joel Greene: [00:21:10] so let's set her in again on what's most true about the body and how the body works.

[00:21:16] Um. Sleep is the single most important restorative factor with the body. And new research has shown, there's been a lot of debate about what controls sleep most.

[00:21:29] Carl Lanore: [00:21:29] Um,

[00:21:30] Joel Greene: [00:21:30] there's, there's one school of thought, well, it's light and dark cycles, and you know, you need, you need like more than you need food. There's that school of thought.

[00:21:37] Um, and then there's newer research that talks about food being the most powerful, um,

[00:21:44] Carl Lanore: [00:21:44] external factor affecting

[00:21:45] Joel Greene: [00:21:45] sleep cycles. And it's very easy to prove. Like you can prove it today. You can prove it today. Like all you do is when you get done listening to the show, go eat 5,000 calories at a curious Cura,

[00:21:56] Carl Lanore: [00:21:56] whatever you want,

[00:21:57] Joel Greene: [00:21:57] and then try to stay awake in broad daylight.

[00:22:01] [00:22:00] You will not, you'll fall asleep. Same as the lion. Uh, conversely, try and sleep when you're starving, very difficult when you're starving is very, very difficult to sleep. So the net of it is, we have a, we have a. Battle of the organ clocks versus the brain clock and which one wins. And the answer is the organ clocks.

[00:22:20] When food is the most powerful control over sleep cycles, and when you start to move meals around during the day, you directly affect sleep cycles. So what we've seen with this kick with intermittent fasting is that we're attempting to get benefits and these benefits are there during sleep. So when you list them out.

[00:22:43] You've got MK activation. You've got H DEC inhibition. Yup. I cannot find my finger.

[00:22:53] Carl Lanore: [00:22:53] Hold it. Wait a second. Yeah, go ahead. I give you, I'll give you more screen now. There you go. [00:23:00] Stop throwing up some gang signs and stuff.

[00:23:06] Joel Greene: [00:23:06] So each decade ambition MK. Um, and several other factors that kick in autophagy. All these things happen during sleep, and not only that, they happen in the proper ecosystem, they happen in the place where they're designed to happen, where you have, have the most impact on the body. So the whole purpose of intermittent fasting is to get those same benefits outside sleep.

[00:23:28] That's the purpose of it.

[00:23:30] Carl Lanore: [00:23:30] Okay. The problem with that

[00:23:31] Joel Greene: [00:23:31] is there's quite a bit of research on what we call intermit fasting under the name of Ramadan, fasting.  much more well studied. And when you review the research on Ramadan fasting, it's a little bit conflicting. Uh, some of the older research shows that it clearly disrupts sleep.

[00:23:46] Some of the newer research adjusts for some factors, and it's, it's kind of a question, but the one clear takeaway is that intermittent fasting absolutely disrupts REM sleep. And that is a very interesting thing. Um, there are some [00:24:00] researchers in the field now who look at REM sleep as perhaps being. Maybe more important than other types of sleep.

[00:24:06] Carl Lanore: [00:24:06] Oh, if you care about your brain. So, so REM sleep, and I'm only saying what the science shows, this may change years from now, but apparently REM sleep is when your hard drive defrags and indexes. So you store memories and you put tags on them so you can find them later. That happens in REM sleep. When you see people who have very, very short REM cycles, you find people who have a hard time recalling what they ate the day before and stuff like that.

[00:24:32] Joel Greene: [00:24:32] 100% so when you look at the impact that that, so, so let's back up. So what is most true about the body? What's most true is that food cycles have the biggest impact on sleep. So what happens when we start to restrict food intake? What's the impact on sleep? So the one clear takeaway we know is that it impacts REM sleep.

[00:24:50] That's a big deal. Well, why are we fasting? Because we want to talk a GMK activation, H doc inhibition. We want all these amazing benefits. Well, those things happen during sleep. They just happen during [00:25:00] the genetic rush hour and they happen and they're much stronger. So if you're fasting and then you're not sleeping, stop fasting.

[00:25:06] Carl Lanore: [00:25:06] Yeah, I was just going to say, if you're spastic and not sleeping, that you've got a net zero gain

[00:25:13] Joel Greene: [00:25:13] that negative. Yeah. Right, right. So. So the sustained impact of intermittent fasting, number one, uh, there's, there's clear evidence to show that may disrupt sleep. Actually, it probably does disrupt sleep. In fact, it's easy to prove.

[00:25:26] If you just want to go pig out and then start, you can prove it to yourself right now. So that's the truth. That's how the body really works. Um, so that takes us into this area of like, seasonality and like, you know, we would create these ancestral narratives that try and help us understand what we think happened, but they're not facts, they're just narratives.

[00:25:43] And they're, they're good. I, I use them too. I use them in my book, but we all use ancestral narratives, but we have to remember those aren't facts. We just think that's what we think happened. But we don't know that's what happened. But what seems to be the case is that seasons have always played out throughout human history.

[00:25:59] That's [00:26:00] probably on fairly decent ground there to make that assumption. And so if we think that seasons have probably played out throughout human history, then it makes sense. If there've been seasons where we start. And then it makes sense that there've been seasons where we were well fed. And so that brings us to like, there's room for both, right?

[00:26:19] Carl Lanore: [00:26:19] And that, and that is exactly my point. I'm not saying there's no value in intimate and fasting. In fact, I'm not saying that there's no value in even longer fast, but what I'm saying is that adopting an eating style. Cause that's what it is. It's an eating style. It's your choice. It's like you want to wear wingtip shoes, I want to wear sneakers.

[00:26:41] Those are styles. If adopting an eating style where you do intimate and fasting for years on end is going to backfire on you and and we're seeing it now, we're starting to see people who have been using intermittent fasting and they're not doing well. All of a sudden.

[00:27:02] [00:27:00] Joel Greene: [00:27:02] I told you guys so.

[00:27:04] Carl Lanore: [00:27:04] Right, right.

[00:27:06] Joel Greene: [00:27:06] Yeah. And the problem is, the reason, the reason is you have, um, an army of people just haven't done it long enough to know really what they're talking about.

[00:27:17] Carl Lanore: [00:27:17] Plus the other reason it's cause you haven't tired cottage industries that literally, I mean, you've got a doctor.

[00:27:22] Part of the reason that I even am doing this show is because I talked about intimate and fasting on this show, not as early as you did. But in 2007 when Dr. Mark McCarty did the first human study on intimate and fasting with obese people, and he had to do it in Mexico for some reason. I don't know why, but, um, I'm sure there's plenty of obese people in California where he lives, but he, he, you know, he showed, he showed profound weight loss when they trained in the morning fast.

[00:27:53] It had had their first meal after they trained. And the longer they waited to have that first meal, [00:28:00] the more weight loss they saw. And everybody went, this is the Holy grail. This is the way we're supposed to eat. And then on top of that, when we started to see things up-regulated like sirtuins and autophagy, people were like, Oh my God, if I eat like this, I'll live forever.

[00:28:18] In fact, no. Now we're seeing that we've been doing it long enough now where we have enough people in the population who've been doing it long enough. We're going, I can't do it anymore. Just like the people who go vegan and you know, four or five years into it, they're so sick. They have no there no strength.

[00:28:35] They go, I can't do this. They eat a steak. They go, Oh my God, you know, I got my first direction in four years. It's like our bodies will adapt and survive whatever we give them. But we will not thrive. We will not thrive. And this is a perfect example of that as well.

[00:28:57] Joel Greene: [00:28:57] Yeah, well said. Well said.

[00:29:00] [00:28:59] Carl Lanore: [00:28:59] Yeah. So what about people who combine intimate and fasting with the ketogenic diet?

[00:29:05] Is that like a double whammy? Like so, so you're not eating frequently at all. You're throwing off your, your body clocks. You're, you're not in that fed state that your body goes, wow, life is great. And now on top of that, when you do eat, you're eating, you know, 70% fat. The body's gone. What the hell is going on?

[00:29:23] This person sucks. Like why they, why is he doing this to me?

[00:29:28] Joel Greene: [00:29:28] Well, again, so I'm, one of the foundations I lay out in my book is that we have to start talking in terms of what went in house. So we have to include time, and then we have to include the way we execute things. And when we're not doing that, we're just doing what I call baby.

[00:29:41] We're just, we're just going to add that guy, dude. We're doing that with our bodies. So when you look at, when you bring in the equation of time to that question, so intermittent fasting plus keto diets plus time. Uh, and you look at that question, what do we see that, what are we seeing? So what you'll see is that in the [00:30:00] short term, vastly beneficial an official, um, particularly for very functional purposes.

[00:30:07] So, um, I, I have it in the book, um, for very specific periods of time as a tool to do things like spin down cancer or spin down inflammation. Uh, the, there, there, those are parts of an equation. That is very restoring over, uh, in the short term and can be used very functionally in the short term for massively beneficial things.

[00:30:28] That's where we get into trouble is we just, we just adopt it as a thing and go, I'm just going to do it forever because it worked once and then we just, we, we just throw time out of the equation. I'm gonna go, I'm just going to live here, yo.

[00:30:43] Carl Lanore: [00:30:43] I, we doubled down. That's what we do as humans. If a little bit's good, we're going to do a lot, you know?

[00:30:49] Joel Greene: [00:30:49] Yeah. And so as soon as we, as soon as we get into like. You know, this is my jam. I ain't stopping. What you see is just to break down some of the issues you'll see. [00:31:00] So longterm key. Do I think I might've talked about this last time? Um, within the mitochondria there is a, a key protein called cardiolipin.

[00:31:10] Cardiolipin lets the mitochondrial Ben. So without Cory Olympian, your mitochondria explode. Pretty much when cardio libbing gets oxidized, it gets oxidized by one of the ways it gets oxidized by fats. You get what's known as an electrified. UL and electro file is a highly, highly, highly, highly reactive molecule.

[00:31:30] And what you get specifically is called four hydroxy, no Nino. Okay, so four hydroxy, no. Nino, uh, is oncogenic. It's a cancer promoter. Hito diets make four hydroxys. No, Nino. For hydroxyzine O'Neil is the mechanism by which Quito diets administer much of the benefit. Okay. The reason it works, the way it works is when you want to keto diet, you begin to [00:32:00] oxidize fats in the mitochondria, specifically cardio lipping, the body reacts and you get a hormetic effect.

[00:32:05] So the body upregulates gludethyon, so which is oxidative stress goes up and then it goes down and it improves. Okay. But. If you really measure that, you start, you mentioned that over, you know, eight months,

[00:32:15] Carl Lanore: [00:32:15] longer period of time, right?

[00:32:17] Joel Greene: [00:32:17] What happens is, what happens over time is four H any begins to accumulate in the mitochondria and it begins to overwhelm who to file production.

[00:32:26] So now you've got a real issue. What we've looked at a lot is for any accumulation and how it affects, uh, cancer cells or Jenny and cancer cells, uh, will do two things. It'll either kill cancer. Or in certain types of cancers, those cancer cells will push it out, diffuse it to the membrane, and push it into a noncancer cell.

[00:32:46] Will, it'll help spread cancer and non-cancer cells in small amounts for, and is beneficial in moderate to medium amounts. It promotes cancer in huge amounts. [00:33:00] It makes cells explode. So what we know about, fortunately a few, a few facts, is that keto diets produced for HNE. Um, for  accumulates and for each, any, uh, promotes cancer, particularly in the colon and in larger amounts, there's nothing good about for HIV.

[00:33:20] So for Anthony, it gives us a mechanism, in other words, how the body really works that we can look at and make predictive analysis from. So longterm Quito diets, you have to begin to take that into account. Now, the research isn't there yet, but with mitochondrial dynamics, it's starting to show up in animals like, like when there's some research, when you get about eight months in on a keto diet, we start to see mitochondrial damage.

[00:33:42] You haven't really looked at for H and E yet, but there's enough there to just say, Hey, maybe we just shouldn't live on this for the rest of our life. Maybe we should take a break. Maybe we should have a season of carbs. It would just have a season of other things. So that is that. That's keto diets.

[00:33:57] Carl Lanore: [00:33:57] Oh, what was that?

[00:33:58] Anyway? Um, [00:34:00] so interestingly enough, I consume raw milk during spring and summer, but I don't consume it in the winter because cows tend to stop producing milk in the winter. They conserve all of their energy just to survive the winters and to, to. Feed calves if they have calves to worry about. So that's something that has been imposed on me by my Mennonite farmer.

[00:34:27] He says, no, we don't. We don't sell raw milk during the winter.

[00:34:30] Joel Greene: [00:34:30] Huh.

[00:34:31] Carl Lanore: [00:34:31] Huh. Interesting. So, and I, and I think there is a, an, uh, an interesting dichotomy here that we need to start paying attention to more often. And that is people need to start becoming sensitive to the. Uh, seasonal phases of availability of foods and start to use those as the triggers for when to eat this way and when to eat that way, when to increase consumption of these foods and when not to.

[00:34:57] It's very simple to do. People can do it, [00:35:00] uh, whether or not they will, I don't know. Right, exactly. Yeah. I want, I want to, we're going to take a break, but before we do that, I want to put the book up real quick because. People who have gotten the book. Well, I've got a picture of it too, so you can, so people who've gotten the book PQM and right now it's still being pre-sold.

[00:35:16] You can get the digital copy and the hard cover for like $23, 2295 on the website, V E P nutrition.com and uh, Kirkland more Leddy. Uh, I think I may have sent you a message from him the other day when I'm getting messages from people saying that the book is amazing. Uh, and they can't wait to get the hardcover because they want to leave it out, I think on their coffee table.

[00:35:42] So people will pick them up. But, uh, the early reviews of this book are outstanding. So you can go to Veep, nutrition, V E P nutrition.com to get both your digital copy and your hardcover copy. I suggest you take that deal because the hardcover is going to [00:36:00] be, it's going to be shipped soon, right?

[00:36:02] Joel Greene: [00:36:02] Yeah. Uh, so anybody that's listening to this show that ordered it doesn't have it yet.

[00:36:05] Uh, we did a format change the last second, and this format saved me like four bucks per book in the printing. So yeah, there was a last minute. We had to reformat the entire book last minute. So it's a little delayed, but it's a should be. You should be getting them in the next week or two. So it's, it's on its way.

[00:36:21] Um, and I just were saying college, I, I got this thing, you know, I got the, I got the, the actual. Hard copy in my hand and then it was like getting a baby. I just, I just kind of sat there and go,

[00:36:33] Carl Lanore: [00:36:33] well, come on. This took longer to birth than a baby. You would have been easier to have given birth to a baby in nine months,

[00:36:39] Joel Greene: [00:36:39] nine months.

[00:36:40] I was like three years.

[00:36:41] Carl Lanore: [00:36:41] I know. That's what I'm saying. If it just took a lot longer. By the way, I heard, I had never said anything about this cause I don't care. But you spelled my last name with an E instead of an a. Unless you've changed it since then.

[00:36:54] Joel Greene: [00:36:54] Oh,

[00:36:54] Carl Lanore: [00:36:54] no. So the next revision, it's L. I. N. O. R. E.

[00:36:57] that's okay. Everybody does it. Don't [00:37:00] listen. Every single person who writes anything about me always makes it Len. Oh, Ari, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a legitimate mistake. It's no big deal. I don't personalize that stuff. People still know who you're talking about.

[00:37:11] Joel Greene: [00:37:11] Well, for people who are listening, I referenced Carl I think about seven or eight times in the, because I know it's true, man, because, uh.

[00:37:21] Uh, well you and I have had these talks, like a lot of them off the air about stuff that, you know, in hindsight was years before other people were talking about it. And, you know, like there's, there've been things that, you know, you, you were dealing and talking about that no one else was talking about. No one else was talking about.

[00:37:39] No. And so there's several places in the book where I referenced Carl, uh, just cause we've had such, like really stimulating conversations over the years. And, um. Yeah. So you were several sections.

[00:37:52] Carl Lanore: [00:37:52] Very big. It's an honor for me to be included. I really mean that. I think I thank you because it's a fantastic book.

[00:37:58] We're going to take a quick commercial break. When [00:38:00] we come back, we have a question from Jeff Clifton that we're got to get to about the, uh, uh, the effects of intimate and fasting on sleep. And is there a way to, um, adjust the. Eating period in the fasting period to improve sleep. Stay tuned. You're listening to super human radio,  dot com this is the superhuman channel where we use oxygen for the power of good.

[00:38:28] Welcome back to supremer radio. We're talking with Joel green. And

[00:38:32] Joel Greene: [00:38:32] he is the

[00:38:34] Carl Lanore: [00:38:34] author of a new book that everyone should have. We'll put it back up here. For those of you to say, Oh, he's got it right there. Okay. Peak human hack your way to a younger body. I love it. I want a younger body. I do. I really do.

[00:38:48] It's mine. Mine is age a lot. In the past years with two surgeries in 2018 it's really taken a toll on me, but I'm back baby. And I gotta tell you, eating five to six small meals a day. I feel so [00:39:00] effing good. I, I can't, you know, we underestimate the role of nutrition in every single aspect of our lives. We really do.

[00:39:12] So, two things I want to do. Um, I want to put Jeff Clifton's, uh, a question up here so we can answer that. And then I want to show you a video of my friend who's having this problem because I want to talk about goals like w. Everybody does. Oh, everybody's on the  bandwagon. Everybody's on the kettle bandwagon, but maybe your goals are different and you're, you're not aligned with your diet too.

[00:39:40] We'll talk about that if that, but here's Jeff Clifton's. He says, what timetable of intimate and fasting affects sleep? I do a 1410 and sleep doesn't improve then eat more often longer.

[00:39:53] Joel Greene: [00:39:53] So there should be an order of operations with respect to fasting and that that is number one [00:40:00] is you don't even think about fascinating until you, until you're really sleeping, optimize that.

[00:40:04] That should be your number one goal. Number two, goal would be number two would be to amplify fasting. And that's not the same thing as intermittent fasting. And I'll talk about that a second. And then the final thing would be to fast as liberal as possible for on a regular basis. Okay. So that you're reducing the time that you're fasting and getting more out of it.

[00:40:26] In other words, amplify the effects of fasting, minimize the downside. So that would be kind of your order of operations for fasting. Um, with respect to like the, the specific question, what time table of intermittent fasting fasting affects sleep. You should, as Carl said, you should be looking, you should be looking at a goal and should be looking at, well, what does it specifically look like looking to accomplish here?

[00:40:49] And there should be some seasonality associated to it. Meaning like there are periods where maybe you have a season of a month or two where you're doing longer, fast, and that's okay. [00:41:00] Um, and maybe then you have seasons where like, Carl, you're, you're back to eating carbs right now. So what I would suggest is.

[00:41:07] Um,

[00:41:07] Carl Lanore: [00:41:07] first question,

[00:41:08] Joel Greene: [00:41:08] are you sleeping? Yes. Now, if you're not, get your sleep corrected. First. Next question. Um, begin to learn how to amplify fasting. That would be the next thing. And then get that fascinating window down to probably like, till about noon, four hours. And then periodically you could do a longer fast, like once, once every two months, something like that.

[00:41:27] Um,

[00:41:28] Carl Lanore: [00:41:28] go ahead. No, no, no. Go, go, finish that. And then I'm going to ask a question cause he has a, he has another question here I'll put up.

[00:41:32] Joel Greene: [00:41:32] Yeah. So next question was, um, eat more often longer. What I would say is that you need a very specific meal checkpoints in the equation at certain times. So you would need, you need a checkpoint after fasting.

[00:41:46] You need big meals. If you, if you're going along fast, like 14, 10, the next day you need a checkpoint meal in the morning, like a huge thousand plus calorie meal, 1200, 1500 calories, and then you need another meal like that, um, during the week. Typically, I do those [00:42:00] on Sundays. Um, that will help to correct

[00:42:02] Carl Lanore: [00:42:02] sleep, you know, uh, and also, Jeff.

[00:42:06] Try. So I'm back to prepping meal. I got my leanest and most muscular when I was eating five to eight small meals a day. I literally would get up in the morning, do fasted cardio for just 30 minutes, and then have my first meal generally be around five 36 o'clock I had my first meal and then I eat every two hours thereafter.

[00:42:28] These are small meals. You know, 40 to 40 grams of protein, 10 grams of , 12 grams of carbs and broccoli, which is, you know, in consequential, but every two hours that is completely revamped my sleep. And also you need to track your sleep because otherwise you don't really know what you're trying to fix. You don't know if your REM sleep is long enough and your deep sleep as long enough, you're just waking up in the morning subjectively and going.

[00:42:58] Yeah, I guess I feel good [00:43:00] when you don't really know what it feels like to feel great. You have nothing to juxtapose how you're waking up that morning to against and go, wow, I didn't know I could feel this good. I always thought where I was was good. So go back and listen to my show, the 10 tips to sleeping better tonight I talk about tracking your sleep.

[00:43:18] I give a couple of apps and obviously an aura ring or the sleep on ring a number one and make sure that you're sleeping good. And then work intimate and fasting back into the equation, but start out by refeeding re feed your body, make your body think that all of a sudden it's a  abundance and yes, stop eating three hours before bedtime, you'll sleep better.

[00:43:45] This was shown to actually help reverse all timers symptoms in Alzheimer's patients by Dr. Dale Bredesen from UCLA who is authored the. Time's bestseller an end to all timers. He's been on my show twice [00:44:00] and this by stopping food intake three hours before sleep, you upregulate autophagy at night, especially in the brain.

[00:44:11] So yes, you're right about that. And let's say he has one more thing. Um, I've noticed my dreams are intense and bizarre if I don't eat six hours before sleep. What do you think of that? Uh,

[00:44:25] Joel Greene: [00:44:25] that could be a lot of things going on with that. Um, but you definitely, so there's some interesting new research on using meal cycles to initiate sleep.

[00:44:36] Um, I put some of that in my book. One of those things is to use very small carb pulse meals prior to bed, um, to help sleep onset. Um, so yes, food can definitely affect melatonin secretion and it can definitely affect a lot of other things. Um, particularly lack of food, lack of food, and starvation disrupts sleep.

[00:44:58] It's one of the biggest sleep [00:45:00] disruptors next to caffeine, so

[00:45:01] Carl Lanore: [00:45:01] it isn't carbohydrate, uh, a promoter of serotonin production. And then serotonin is basically one step away from melatonin.

[00:45:11] Yeah.

[00:45:12] Joel Greene: [00:45:12] So as we age, there are disruptions in serotonin production and tryptofan metabolism along the carotene pathway.

[00:45:19] And one of the ways we can correct these age-related disruptions is with meals in the evening that that helps to correct them. But interestingly, um, one thing you see with the intermittent fasting trend is too. Get all your calories in at night, uh, take, you know, two, 3000 calories in, you know, at nighttime.

[00:45:37] Uh, I am of the opinion that actually disrupts all of the life extending things that happen during sleep or actually goes into a toughie. It doesn't, yeah. You mentioned something interesting to Carl, which is, I just want to tell you my own story with it, and I've also heard it from other people, which, uh, right, about 2010 was when, um, the, the big MK cert one study came out.

[00:45:59] And I [00:46:00] started, uh, you know, doing a lot of, a lot of the stuff we're talking about a lot of the  base kind of train and facet training, all that kind of stuff. And after about two years, I was sore all the time, just so we sold. And

[00:46:13] Carl Lanore: [00:46:13] when I went

[00:46:14] Joel Greene: [00:46:14] back to kind of like eating more frequently and those types of meals.

[00:46:18] I had these incredible results from doing it. And I'm hearing that from a lot of people now who've been on the fasting bandwagon as well. They've kind of reached the end of that train and they're going back to frequent meals and their training is through the roof. They're getting, their lifts are great, their pumps are fantastic.

[00:46:32] And you know,

[00:46:33] Carl Lanore: [00:46:33] cartel. So, which leads me to this next discussion that, that, that really talking about nutrition without talking about your goals, I think is best guided. Because you can't, you can't get somebody on a, uh, a calorie restricted diet that's supposed to exp extend life and expect them to be an Olympic athlete at the same time.

[00:46:57] that will never work. You will crush the person. [00:47:00] So I want to show a video of my friend, I'm not mentioning his name because I haven't asked him, but I just want to show you this guy. And this guy has been devoted kedo, devoted intimate and faster and even longterm, fast more frequently. But this is how he trains.

[00:47:17] Now watch this.

[00:47:30] Joel Greene: [00:47:30] Yup.

[00:47:33] Carl Lanore: [00:47:33] Yup, yup.

[00:47:57] you get the idea. Okay, so this [00:48:00] guy is guy isn't doing , okay? This guy, for those of you listening to the podcast and didn't have the luxury of watching this video just now that the folks on Facebook are watching, he took about 300 pounds, and he, uh, he cleans it to his, his shoulders. He squats it at his shoulders, and then from a standing position, he approached, presses it over his head, he drops it.

[00:48:25] And then he straps a sled to his waist and sprints away. So, and, and, and Joel, I think you can attest, he's hyper muscular. I mean, he's a beast. He really isn't. He's in his forties by the way. This is thing, he's no spring chicken and you can't train like that. And he trains like that. He does two a days. He and I, when, whenever our wives go out of town.

[00:48:47] Like most guys go out creeping and drinking with their friends and we go, Oh, we're going to go, I'm going to the gym a second time today cause Elisa's Elise is out of town right now. I've been going at night as well as in the morning. And you can't do that [00:49:00] and maintain that level of performance and then starve yourself and only eat fat you, I mean, you could probably do it for a while because you're metabolically flexible and at some point in time your body goes.

[00:49:11] You know what, maybe you just need to die because you seem not to be able to do this very well. And that is really that the discussion that needs to take place in this, this world where everybody, you know, now Oz is pushing intimate and fasting and everybody's pushing kedo but it's like, well, what are your goals?

[00:49:29] Am I wrong about that? No,

[00:49:32] Joel Greene: [00:49:32] you'd get on your so. Well, I'm trying to find this chapter in the book where I talked about, uh, the benefits of feasting here, but, uh, in, in how humans eat, which we talked about last time. Um, no, because when you separate out your objective and you separate out like tiny and you separate when and you separate out how all those things, you're, you're, you're isolating something out of context and it's just [00:50:00] baby talk.

[00:50:00] It has nothing to do with how the body works. You have to take into account how the body works. And an interesting thing is that, um, the more you look into fascinating and the autophagy and that side of the equation, uh, and the less looked into side of the equation, which is growth and feasting and all those things, they are two sides of the balance beam.

[00:50:21] You need both really to be optimal. And when you're in season, understand where the ancestral narrative, like if, if you're always starving, you're not going to be optimal there. There were all kinds of things. Malignancies related to starvation. So starvation has some benefits, but it has a lot of negatives.

[00:50:41] And conversely, a seasons of overeating and feasting and all those things. Those are what we played out in human history, and they play a very big part in the equation of optimal health. Um, there is a new protein that's been identified, um, and it's called circulating catabolic factor. And it's [00:51:00] related to feasting.

[00:51:01] What it does is it increases, it increases lipolysis and fat burning and all other kinds of things. And so it explains what, what people who've

[00:51:08] Carl Lanore: [00:51:08] eaten

[00:51:08] Joel Greene: [00:51:08] a lot over the years know it lifted heavy, is that you can have these periods of, of eating a lot, like, like a whole lot to actually three X in your calories and you get leaner right now.

[00:51:20] So the point is that you can go too far, Dave aside, you can, you can go too far to the side of. Eating too much and eating too many carbs, all that stuff for training. But then the other side of that is just as bad eating too many fats and fastening too much, and it really gets to, um, really gets to the chapter I have in the book on balance, which is just the pious truth of the body is that the systems in your body must be balanced and you can imbalance them from healthy inputs, healthy things, sustain longterm can promote disease just as readily as unhealthy things.

[00:51:52] Carl Lanore: [00:51:52] So on the blueprint power hour a month or so ago, I talked about a study where they looked at [00:52:00] over-training and athletes and, and, and the summary of the study was over-training was more result and easy to predict based on the amount of food the athlete was eating. So they, they did all, they had like five different groups.

[00:52:18] And basically what they did was they, they, they, they had one group. That ate all they wanted. I mean, enough fat bastard eating, you know, the eight high protein, the ate healthy, uh, they hate go. They all, they ate appropriate for their goals, but they had another, uh, group where they just cut their calories by like 800 calories, uh, below what they really required, and they had all the markers of over-training.

[00:52:45] So we talk about over-training all the time. Over-training. It's not a result of training. Too often. It's not a result of training too intensely. It's not a result of training a frequency and [00:53:00] volume. It is a direct, it's a direct effect of under eating in the face of those things. So that means that if you're not eating enough, you're going to overtrain.

[00:53:10] Now look at my buddy here. He, he, he, he has some glucose management issues. That don't make any sense cause he's intimate and fasting. He's, he's ketogenic sensitivity of insulin that goes up, but his blood sugar is all over the place and he's trains like that. And one of the things when we talk about over-training, you know, they talk about rapid heart rate in the morning, you know, but then when you're really overtrained, uh, anxiety, tremor.

[00:53:40] Weakness. Uh, I mean, all these other things come on. He is severely, severely overtrained in my humble opinion, and, and using caffeine, the double whammy in order to perform at his best. So his brain is going, we're going to ignore the fact that the body is telling us they don't want to. [00:54:00] We don't want to do this.

[00:54:01] We're going to make the body do this. That just pushes you further and further and deeper and deeper into over-training until metabolic processes just get whacked out. Is that, is that an oversimplification?

[00:54:12] Joel Greene: [00:54:12] Uh, no. That's one of the better explanations I think I've ever heard of that really. I mean, you hit it on the head like, yeah, food has a lot to do with, um, who has a lot to do with knocking down inflammation and when, when you were talking about over-training, but talking about at the, at the physiological level, we're talking about injury, you're inducing small injuries.

[00:54:36] And then you're in booking the immune system to fix those injuries. Okay, so training and even fat loss and make this case in the book, they're mediated by the immune system. So when you look at what does the immune system need to function optimally? Okay, well, immune cells are cells. They work, they have the same physiological mechanical processes that cells [00:55:00] have.

[00:55:00] It's just that they're a little more focused in what they do, and those cells need. Substrate and they didn't have the same signal pathways that other cells have. So the cells of your immune system require feeding in order to function optimally. Okay. So when we talk about like these growth pathways, like mapK  and all these other pathways that play into optimally turning on growth, immune cells need that stuff just as much as muscle cells.

[00:55:29] And the connection of immune cells to muscle growth and fat loss has just been completely ignored. And it's the reality of what's really true. It's always been what's really true. We just ignored it. We didn't understand it, but yeah, so I'm just saying what you said in a different way. That's all. But yeah, it's 100%.

[00:55:44] The growth equation requires substrate, which requires feeding, which requires periods of, uh, lots of food, requires all those

[00:55:51] Carl Lanore: [00:55:51] things. And we know now because inflammation has been studied. Uh, to a much greater degree that if the [00:56:00] resolution of inflammation, that is the goal and not chronically inflamed.

[00:56:05] And I would imagine, and again, I have no science to prove this, but I would imagine that people who starved themselves resolution of inflammation doesn't happen because they just don't have the metabolic bricks and mortar to finish the job.

[00:56:22] Joel Greene: [00:56:22] Ah, wow. Fantastic topic. Um,

[00:56:24] Carl Lanore: [00:56:24] so.

[00:56:25] Joel Greene: [00:56:25] I built my book around, um, macrophages.

[00:56:29] I built my book around, uh, one of the key players in the immune system. And when you look at how macrophasias work, have a couple of sides. You have, you have the healers and you have the killers. So killers show up first. Those are your  macrophages. In most cases, they show up with the onset of inflammation.

[00:56:45] We need to recruit them. And then they need to go away. And the healer, macrophages, the  need to come in and clean everything up and fix everything and resolve inflammation. Okay, so there's an interesting equation with respect to, in the book, I call it [00:57:00] steering macrophage populations. What it is, is learning how to steer populations of macrophage when math, macrophages in key tissues, when you need to for specific purposes.

[00:57:12] So there are periods when we need to steer in the killers, the high inflammatory macrophages, particularly post-workout. That's when we need them to show up. But then we need them to go away. And one of the ways we get them to go away post-workout is through food cycles, are the ways you can steer macrophage populations into the resolving types.

[00:57:37] Carl Lanore: [00:57:37] Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. I want to think that, I'm sorry. I'm sorry I didn't have,

[00:57:41] Joel Greene: [00:57:41] it. Hasn't been looked at or talked about much.

[00:57:43] Carl Lanore: [00:57:43] Well, and of course what you and I are doing here is just a natural progression. I mean, w w as more information comes out, it just leads to more questions. And so it does need to be looked at.

[00:57:54] I want to take our last commercial break and when we come back, I want to wrap up the show with talking about a [00:58:00] long, fast verse versus intimate and Fasten because that's another thing. Um. You know, th th the keto diet community, they looked at ketones as almost a competition who's, whose ketones were higher.

[00:58:14] What they failed to realize is that those excessively high levels of ketones, unless you're fighting cancer, is just evidence that your body is in starvation mode. And, and you know, some ketones good. But once again, we tend to take everything to the extreme. That's what we do. We're humans. And the same is happening with fasting.

[00:58:35] There's actually apps out there that are promoting people a fast three, four days, and I get it a three day fast twice a year probably has a really big value, but doing three day fast regularly, you may be making some of the same mistakes that people in the vegan community do or the extreme kettle community do.

[00:58:57] So we're going to talk about longterm, fast versus intimate and fasting [00:59:00] when we come back. Okay. The website is Veep, nutrition, VEP, nutrition.com you can get the book there. Peak human. And you can become a peak human in a couple months working at it. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. Move over. Superheroes.

[00:59:15] This is the superhuman chapel.

[00:59:29] welcome back. You know, I really got my ass puckered this week when I saw . On several different news stations promoting intimate and fasting, and he's got a whole new program and you could get on his program for enrichment and intimate. And he said he's going to cut out breakfast for 2020 he wants to do away with breakfast.

[00:59:47] And he's just going on and on and on. And I'm thinking to myself, this guy is such a frigging shill. You know what the sad thing is? He and I share a birthday. I'm older than him. But we're both born on June the 11th [01:00:00] and I get it. He's charismatic, he loves science, but he tries to reduce everything. Uh, in a way that everyone can understand it and, and he loses the real meaning of the science and trying to do that.

[01:00:15] Sometimes you gotta make people elevate their intelligence to understand instead of trying to lower the message to meet the masses to big mistake he makes all the time. And I, I know what's going to happen. People are going to try intimate and fasting. It's good. They're going to fail. It's going to suck.

[01:00:29] It's going to go. You know, they're going to overuse it. They're going to not do it the right way because that community of people don't have the rudimentary knowledge of nutrition to begin with.

[01:00:42] Joel Greene: [01:00:42] You know, it's funny, I never considered myself an expert. I just consider myself a consumer and the only reason I'm here is.

[01:00:51] Because of years of problems that I've gone through by taking advice from guys. You know, guys like that [01:01:00] that don't really know what they're doing. They haven't really done it wrong. They haven't done it, and they haven't done it long enough to know what's going to happen. So what I've seen in my 40 plus year journey with what we call fitness.

[01:01:13] Is that, give me a salt. I'm doing something because somebody, you know, either has a body that you want to emulate or they've got something that you want and you wind up doing some protocol and then you wind up really jacked up from it for years and they've made their model. And, uh, you know, like that, that, that defines my experience and that's, that's why I'm here.

[01:01:32] It's just surely as a consumer, I had to get to a place where I just couldn't be, be asked by anybody anymore. And then when I thought it was most of the people that were supposed to be experts at work. Like when you push them into details, they really didn't know what they're

[01:01:45] Carl Lanore: [01:01:45] buying. They don't know what they're talking about.

[01:01:46] Exactly. So let's talk about fasting versus intimate and fasting longterm, fast versus intimate and fasting.

[01:01:52] Joel Greene: [01:01:52] Oh, wait, can I, can I tell you about

[01:01:56] Carl Lanore: [01:01:56] I

[01:01:57] Joel Greene: [01:01:57] in between, I heard your commercial [01:02:00] for the slide.

[01:02:01] Carl Lanore: [01:02:01] Oh, yes, yes.

[01:02:02] Joel Greene: [01:02:02] Yeah. Um, I generally have the opinion that most protein powders are no better than cottage cheese and cottage cheese a hell of a lot cheaper.

[01:02:09] So I usually just buy cottage cheese. But your protein, it's the, it's the only one I've ever done where I like I, I have a pump, like I like a walking around with a pump. Right.

[01:02:18] Carl Lanore: [01:02:18] You hear that from other people. Yeah. I, so my protein powder is kind of a boutique protein powder. I don't really market it except on my show.

[01:02:25] And I have people who buy it regularly and they swear by it and they love it. And it's usually people who have bought whey protein products out there and cook and they had trouble digesting it. You know, cause bloating and, and so on. They go, Oh, you know, I thought I was allergic to dairy. My doctor told me I was allergic to dairy, but I use your protein powder and it works great.

[01:02:48] So I tend to appeal to people who have had bad experience with protein powder, but there's so much more to the pro. You know, mine is a blend and it's, it's not the least expensive protein powder in the world, [01:03:00] but I, I can't take credit for how good it is because all I did was look at the scaffolding. Uh, of human breast milk and go, Oh, so this is in breast milk.

[01:03:10] I'm going to put it in here. That's a breast milk. I'm going to put it in here. So, you know, mother nature really is the formulator of that protein when you think about it, you know?

[01:03:18] Joel Greene: [01:03:18] Yeah. I just, my experience was just, yeah. I just, I just noticed, I was like pumped. Alright. So interesting. Thank you.

[01:03:26] Carl Lanore: [01:03:26] So, so fasting versus a longterm fast versus intimate and fasting.

[01:03:30] Joel Greene: [01:03:30] Yeah. So the most important thing is. To deprogram your mind from the words. So do you, this is a question to the audience of your listening. You really think your body differentiates between the words intermittent fasting and starvation. You really think that your body knows the difference, right? It doesn't

[01:03:54] Carl Lanore: [01:03:54] all,

[01:03:55] Joel Greene: [01:03:55] all your body knows is shrinking fat cells that it's all your body [01:04:00] sees and the body's response to shrinking fat cells.

[01:04:05] Candy inventory and it can be enumerated. Okay. And not only that, there are key hormonal domains that are controlled by things like stomach distension. Okay. We can name what those hormones are. Ghrelin, PYY leptin,

[01:04:23] Carl Lanore: [01:04:23] you said some stomach distension, you said. Yeah. Oh, this is this. Okay, good. Stay with this.

[01:04:29] Because my stomach got consistently distended. The longer I stayed with intimate and fasting, and now I notice that I'm eating five to six small meals a day and my stomach is getting flatter. This is completely counter intuitive to me.

[01:04:45] Joel Greene: [01:04:45] Yeah. My mind is spinning for an answer on that one as you're asking it that.

[01:04:51] That is very interesting. When, so what part of the summit was it? The upper part,

[01:04:55] Carl Lanore: [01:04:55] like when you start, it starts right from, from the thorax goes all the way down to [01:05:00] the pelvic bone. It just looked like my stomach has this curve and we see this in the population today. By and large, seeing a flat, flat abs today is, is, is rare.

[01:05:08] Even in people who are relatively lean, most of them have that little. , that little dome, if you will.

[01:05:15] Joel Greene: [01:05:15] So, intermittent fasting redistributes body fat stores. Um, it typically, what most of the research says is that it redistributes visceral fat to subcutaneous fat, which is a good thing that we would ideally want, right?

[01:05:28] But if you look at little kids in Africa that are starving, you see stomach distension

[01:05:33] Carl Lanore: [01:05:33] from pro, but that there's a name for that. It's the lack of protein in their diet, right? That's starvation. It's probation.

[01:05:41] Joel Greene: [01:05:41] Uh, but the other thing too is, uh, so one of the benefits of intermittent fasting is that nitrogen shifts from dietary sources to internal production of nitrogen.

[01:05:52] So that's a good thing. Typically, it helps restore Akkermansia mucin alpha, which restores the gut bacteria. Um, [01:06:00] however, um, it may be that you're looking at fermentation and the transverse colon. You know, for different reasons just to, to fasting and fermentation. Just, you know, from a different angle. But it's kind of miss Jane.

[01:06:13] I actually want to look at that a little bit

[01:06:15] Carl Lanore: [01:06:15] more. I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to 

[01:06:18] Joel Greene: [01:06:18] that's really interesting. We should talk about that one offline. That's very, uh, so anyways, just getting to the point here. So when you, when you, when you change the labels up and you stop calling it intermittent fasting and you just call it starvation, I don't care.

[01:06:31] You call it fat loss. You can call it time restricted feeding. You can call, in fact, you can call whatever, all these modern countries and cities that aren't brain's made up. Well, the body's been around way longer than that. Body's been around long, long time. And the body knows what cessation of food feels like, and it has all kinds of protections and defenses against the station of food, and they're all driven towards one purpose.

[01:06:53] And that's to keep you alive. So when you talk about periodically [01:07:00] cessation of food, you're tapping into ancestral programming that is survival-based and I a I, I list what those mechanisms are. One example is . That after a period of starvation escalated and goes up. Okay. So when you begin to talk about adding time to the equation, so cessation of food, well, how long?

[01:07:24] So are we going to be, are we going to be fasting routinely for 14 hours a day, 15 hours a day, and then taking our food intake? Well, so really what you're saying is that starvation is taking place during all, during that amount of time, and, and so now, if you map that over time. Once again, what you're going to see is that short term, there's a lot of benefits.

[01:07:44] Longterm what you're doing is you're up regulating the mechanisms that are designed to defend against starvation for the purpose of keeping you alive. And all of those mechanisms are probably game. They're all designed to get you to eat more,

[01:07:57] Carl Lanore: [01:07:57] and if you're in the end, if you're in the childbearing [01:08:00] years.

[01:08:00] Your egg and his sperm will be programmed to produce a child that's coming into an environment where starvation is a possibility, so that child will end up having what they love to call the thrifty genes turned on because the baby's going to be born with food is scarce, so we have to keep the baby alive.

[01:08:19] That's a, that's an oversimplification, but that really is what happens.

[01:08:23] Joel Greene: [01:08:23] Yeah. That show you and I did on transgenerational epigenetics, that was familiar. Kind of a first of its kind a. Um, if you're listening to the show, you may want to go dig that one up. Uh, fascinating how the body's current operating state can be downloaded into sperm and egg and passed on to generations, and it takes five generations to clear it up.

[01:08:47] Carl Lanore: [01:08:47] So to come full circle, um. Back in the day, bodybuilders used to talk about, as I said at the beginning of the show, staying in a fed state, and they believe that staying in a fed [01:09:00] state meaning frequent small meals. So if the body thinks it's starving from food sensation, then frequent small meals should make the body think life is good.

[01:09:14] Let's lower stress. Food seems to be available. You know, it takes a couple of weeks, but when the body goes, wow, I can't believe it, like we're getting lots of food. We're never even hungry anymore. We don't even have a chance to get hungry. We're like eating every couple hours. Wow. You know, maybe we don't need all that fat.

[01:09:30] Let's let it go. And you know what? Muscle is metabolically expensive, but it seems like we're at no threat of starvation. So yeah, let's go ahead and build some muscle. This, this was kind of. The underpinnings of the, uh, uh, the nutritional protocols brought to us by people like Armand Tanny, Jacqueline Lalaine, Vince Geronda, they said, this is when you get the leanest, and that's the truth for me.

[01:09:56] And this is when you get the most muscular, and that's the truth for me. [01:10:00] And so to come full circle, if your goal is to lose body fat. Under the most stressful conditions in the world, then yeah, fast to hell out of your body for years, and the outcome probably won't be good and years, but why do that when you can actually eat small meals four or five times a day and tell the body life is good.

[01:10:25] Life is great. We are, the environment is permissive. It's not hostile. We have all the food we want that, which is the polar opposite of the negative effects that we're detailing today. Right?

[01:10:39] Joel Greene: [01:10:39] I just labeled it under balance that the real truth of what gets more after rock or what's really true. Yeah. And I promise you, it's, you're doing things for your body that aren't based on what's true about your body.

[01:10:52] You're gonna get to a point in time where you're not happy. You're just, cause you're chasing fantasy, you're not chasing reality. So what's really true is [01:11:00] that all systems of the body require, like not even a debate, require balance. And that the inputs that you put into your body require balance as well.

[01:11:12] And we need seasons. Of feeding needs. Seasons of growth. We need seasons of anabolism. As much as we need seasons of tophi, and those are built into human history. That's the one nutritional constant across all of history. It's feast and famine. The body is well adapted to deal with both. It deals very well with both, but when you leave either one out of the equation, you're not optimal

[01:11:37] Carl Lanore: [01:11:37] folks.

[01:11:37] The book is called peak human. You can get This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and it's a must have if you're serious about health, if you're serious about performance, if you're serious about better sleep, if you're serious about aging better. Joe, how old are you now? You said you've been in the fitness industry for 40 something years, but you're in your fifties [01:12:00] yeah.

[01:12:00] And he doesn't use hair color like me. I look like this. I look like a skunk right now cause I have a gray Stripe going down in the middle of my head cause I don't even know. But this, this, this book is a must have. And if you learn two things out of the whole book, if you get two pearls that influence the way you eat and change the trajectory of your life, it's money well spent right now.

[01:12:23] You can get both the digital version. And the hard cover. The hard cover will be shipped shortly, but you can get the digital version right away for 2299 that price isn't going to be around forever. Now's the time to grab both versions of it. I'm telling you right now, and if you have questions that you think would make a good topic for a show, email them to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..

[01:12:47] I'll have Joel back on, uh, and, and we'll talk about it. Joel, thanks so much for being here today. Say a little Christy for me. Okay. Well. Thank you Carl. All right, bro. And we will see everybody. I don't think I have a show tomorrow, but [01:13:00] Friday we have a pep talk. We're going to talk about those of you who suffer from neuropathies.

[01:13:05] There's a peptide for it. And dr Betsy earth is going to be coming on, uh, from Boulder, uh, longevity to talk about this wonderful peptide that we have an epidemic today of neuropathy. And it's not from diabetes because we have people that are diabetic that have peripheral neuropathy. Terrible. Terrible.

[01:13:29] So there's something else going on and there is a peptide that I think we can introduce the audience to. So we'll do that on Friday. I'll be off tomorrow. I, so that's it for today's show. We will see everybody on Friday. Thank you for listening today and watching. [01:14:00]