[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] Welcome back to superhuman radio. You know, whenever I see my mug, I start smiling instinctively, and then I realized, Oh my God, I'm a chimpanzee, because that's what they do when they see their images in mirror. Welcome back to superhuman radio. Today is February 19th, 2020. For those of you listening to this show a hundred years from now, realizing we will way ahead of everybody else.

[00:00:20] And, uh, we have to thank God, title, sponsor, legendary foods, uh, for being such a generous. Uh, a support to the show. And, uh, right now they have an amazing new, uh, snack food called the tasty pastry. It's, it's, it looks like a pop tart tastes better than a pop tart, uh, but it's only got four grams to three grams of impact.

[00:00:45] Carbs less than one gram of sugar, nine grams of high leucine, high quality protein. So you think you're cheating, but you're not. Go to eat legendary.com to learn more and let them know that I sent [00:01:00] you. Now, my guest today has been on the show before, and this is Jackie Wolf. How are you Jackie?

[00:01:08] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:01:08] I'm fine.

[00:01:09] I'm very happy to be here.

[00:01:10] Carl Lanore: [00:01:10] Yes. So we talked about breastfeeding last time and, and misunderstandings, misconceptions, but the importance of, um, of, of women continue to breastfeed. And in that show you said. I, I mentioned that I was a C-section baby. My mother smoked and took value when she was pregnant with me.

[00:01:29] And so, and you said, Oh, Syrian section. We jumped on that. And then I found out you have authored a book called Syrian section in American history of risk technology and consequence. And everyone who saw this show go upset. Oh, immune system microbiome. You know? And that's really a buzz now. Everybody gets that, but there's a lot more to.

[00:01:50] Uh, what happens to both the mother and the child, uh, when Assyrian section is performed? First of all, dispel a myth. Is it really [00:02:00] named after one of the Caesars?

[00:02:02] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:02:02] It is not. And thank you for asking that. Um, because that, that absolutely is the assumption. Um, and that's the legend that it was named after Julius Caesar, who, who, uh, supposedly was born by Syrian section, but that was an era when women didn't survives the searing section.

[00:02:17] And Julia sees as Caesar's mother lived to be lived to a ripe old age. The word actually comes from the Latin, meaning to cut. That's where the term comes from,

[00:02:27] Carl Lanore: [00:02:27] like incision,  decision. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. Yeah. So, and in that funny, that's just like German chocolate cake is named after a guy whose last name was German.

[00:02:36] It has nothing to do with Germany. I, you know, it's funny, we just make assumptions and we run with it, you know? So, so when was the Syrian session for a sec section first introduced, uh, as a means of delivering babies? I have to believe this was always, Oh. That's okay. That's okay.

[00:02:53] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:02:53] That's okay. If you don't move around, the lights go out.

[00:02:57] Carl Lanore: [00:02:57] Oh, one of those electrical [00:03:00] saving. Well, feel free to roam if you want during the interview. You can be

[00:03:02] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:03:02] mobile.

[00:03:04] Carl Lanore: [00:03:04] Yeah, there you go. So, so when, when did we see our first C-section?

[00:03:09] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:03:09] Well, you know, I like to talk more about the first C-section in the U S I can

[00:03:15] Carl Lanore: [00:03:15] tell you. Okay.

[00:03:16] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:03:16] Okay. There's even reference. I mean, there was a couple references to Syrian section for very different reasons.

[00:03:23] Um, thousands of years ago, they were done mainly to assure inheritance lines that if a woman died in, in childbirth, you could quickly, uh, remove her baby and inheritance. Slang would be assured that were done for very mercenary reasons, not for

[00:03:40] Carl Lanore: [00:03:40] medical

[00:03:41] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:03:41] ancient history. Um. And it's not really until the modern era that we see that we see it used as a last resort to save a woman.

[00:03:51] So it was done for very different social reasons in the era that you were asking about.

[00:03:56] Carl Lanore: [00:03:56] So, but at some point in time. Uh, I think [00:04:00] you even opened the book with a story about Jacqueline Kennedy, you know, uh, getting a Csection to deliver her first child. But like today, it was a plan. C-section. They used to be emergency C-sections.

[00:04:11] When, when did it, when did people go, let's not even try delivering vaginally.

[00:04:16] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:04:16] Well, that is very recent. That's more like we're talking about the late 1980s early 1990s that suddenly cistern, sexually became normalized. In fact, it's interesting that you mentioned Jackie Kennedy because when she had her babies and people should know, Jackie Kennedy only only had two living children, but she had five full term pregnancies.

[00:04:40] Near true, I shouldn't say full term. Her babies were born very, very premature, and she had problems with the placenta separating and bleeding. Um, and when she had her in, all of them were born by Syrian section and only two lived. And when she had her babies to Syrian sections were so rare that [00:05:00] because she was famous and, and her births were written up because he had, um, junk jr when Kennedy was running for president.

[00:05:08] Who's that? He was born and that she had Syrian. Every newspaper had it define what is the Sterian

[00:05:14] Carl Lanore: [00:05:14] was women didn't even know. Yeah, that's hilarious.

[00:05:19] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:05:19] So she actually, even though that was in the early 1960s and still Syrians were very rare, about 4% of births. Now they're almost 33% of burrs. Do you want to be about 4% of her?

[00:05:30] So few women had them. Um, it didn't become national news until Jackie Kennedy.

[00:05:37] Carl Lanore: [00:05:37] I think you're actually holding your thumb over your microphone because, Oh yeah, you got really loud now. Okay, great. So, no, no. So, so, um. To today. So Syrian section is a, uh, sometimes a chosen method. No one even wants to deliver vaginally.

[00:05:56] You'll go through the trouble of it. They just want to be in and out. And literally my [00:06:00] third child, because my ex wife had been a C-section the first time, it was just assumed that she was a C-section every time, which I want to talk about that phenomenon in a second. With that being said, uh, we did that.

[00:06:14] That's how we went in. We picked my daughter's name and it was like going in for day's surgery. That's what it was. You

[00:06:19] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:06:19] know, it's interesting that you even bring that up because I, part of my research was interview many, many dozens of obstetricians who were trained in all different eras. So retired obstetricians, uh, obstetricians train in the 1970s, eighties, nineties, current residents.

[00:06:34] And many obstetricians will say to you, they will not even consider what's called an elective Sicilian section. They'll say there has to be a medical reason for it, but then the younger the obstetricians get, the more accustomed they are, the more normalized the Syrians have been since their training and in the course of their training.

[00:06:53] And they're very comfortable with performing Sicilian if that's what a woman wants to do. But, um. [00:07:00] One of the problems with the normalization of Sicilian, and you alluded to this at the very start of the show, that we think of Sicilians as being controlled and safe. The truth is, unless they're medically necessary, they're quite dangerous.

[00:07:13] They're much more risky than a low risk vaginal birth. Um, or women die at much higher rates with the Sicilian section, even controlling for the medical reasons why they might've had a serious

[00:07:25] Carl Lanore: [00:07:25] surgery. It's

[00:07:28] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:07:28] a surgery. It's major surgery, major abdominal surgery, which of course you would never want to have unless you, there's a sound medical reason for it.

[00:07:38] You're cutting through muscle, you're cutting through layers of skin. You're cutting through the, the, the, um. The uterus and the uterine scar in subsequent births can create all kinds of problems in subsequent pregnancies. So yes, if they're medically necessary to Syrians can be lifesaving. And I want to emphasize that.

[00:07:57] Thank goodness we have them. Thank goodness [00:08:00] the Syrians are relatively safe today, but if you don't need them, the risks of surgery far outweigh the benefits. And not only that, it's terrible for babies.

[00:08:10] Carl Lanore: [00:08:10] Yeah. Well, what we're going to, we're going to get into that. Hold on. I want to ask you one last question while I'm on this particular topic.

[00:08:17] This idea that once a Syrian, always a Syrian, is that because doctors just assume you've had one, so we're not even going. Why? Why, why? Maybe one child was breech, so they went in C-section, right? To save the child, but the other children are, why do they go right to C-section? Why don't they try delivering vaginal.

[00:08:35] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:08:35] There's a historical reason for that. And, and the truth is, the reason is known is not valid anymore. The historical reason is that the Syrian sections in the U S used to be preformed with what was called the high, a high vertical cut. It began at the belly button, and it went all the way down to the pubis.

[00:08:55] So it was very long and it was vertical. Um, in Europe. Um, in the [00:09:00] early 20th century. So for over a century now, they'd been doing a low horizontal cut, which is much safer, much less blood loss. Plus it leaves a much stronger scar. That high vertical scar, that long vertical scar would be very weak. So subsequently in subsequent labors, the uterus could rupture, right?

[00:09:20] So you get, you didn't want a woman to go into labor and you said once, this is Syrian, always necessary, and that is no longer medically the case. Um, so vigil Bruce hatch is a Syrian, are very common in Europe. Um, we get nervous in the U S because there was one study, uh, uh, Oh, a little over 10 years ago that showed that if labor was induced, um, there was a much greater chance of rupture.

[00:09:45] If you had a surgical, it's not a much greater chance about, rather than something like, it was actually very slightly. Something like, um, 1.9% versus 1.5%. Um, so it was a very slight increase in, in, [00:10:00] in rupture, um, as opposed to going into labor or doing another Syrian section. But, um, and that's why American doctors have kind of backed away from it, but there really is.

[00:10:12] Very flimsy medical reason for doing that. There's no reason why a woman couldn't give birth vaginally. I'm in the absence of medical indications after one Syrian.

[00:10:22] Carl Lanore: [00:10:22] So, um, now let's move on to the other topic, which is most important to parents would be parents and is, is there something unique. Oh. Or is there something endowed into the infant as it is delivered vaginally that ends up becoming critical for the health of that baby?

[00:10:45] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:10:45] There are a couple of things that we're learning about. Um, one is that vaginal birth is really good for the pulmonary bed. That is, babies have been breathing in amniotic fluid for nine months, and in going through the birth [00:11:00] canal, all the fluid is squeezed out of the lungs. When a baby is lifted out of the uterus through a surgical cut, um, 100% of those babies are born with wet lungs.

[00:11:12] Many of them end up in the neonatal intensive intensive care unit. And one of the reasons we're seeing an asthma epidemic and an allergy epidemic among children is because babies born by C-section have a much greater tendency to, um, to asthma because of their history of being born with wet lung.

[00:11:32] Carl Lanore: [00:11:32] So that's the linkage.

[00:11:33] So everybody knows that the Syrian babies tend to have a higher rate of asthma. There was a book written. I interviewed, uh, the, the scientists missing microbes. I can't think of it the scientist's name. We talked about the linkage between, um, one of the M

[00:11:52] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:11:52] H pylori.

[00:11:54] Carl Lanore: [00:11:54] So H pylori is one of those bell curve things.

[00:11:57] If a child has no H pylori, they [00:12:00] tend to develop asthma. If they have too much, they tend to have other issues. So we, I assume that. The, the whole mothers, um, uh, micro-biome being transferred at birth. Was that, but what you are saying, it's actually because of the wet lung 

[00:12:17] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:12:17] because of both those things. I was about to talk about the net microbiome, but we really, the microbiome is more associated with severe allergies.

[00:12:24] And I'll explain why in a minute. But the, um, the wet lung is, is, has been tied to. Very high rates of asthma, which is why you see a higher rates of asthma amongst the section children for sure. Um, we're beginning to learn so much about the human microbiome. Um, we carry on us and inside of us as adults, about three pounds of, um, of, uh, bacteria, uh, good bacteria that are essential to our health.

[00:12:54] Right. Babies are first introduced to that as they go through the birth canal, as [00:13:00] they are bathed in their mother's vaginal microbiome, babies lifted on the womb have a sterile gut that's not good. Babies born vaginally, have their, have their gut colonized by this vaginal microbiome, babies born by Syrian section.

[00:13:18] Thank you. Have a different gut microbiome, even if they're breastfed. And that difference persists for up to six months after they're born compared to babies born vaginally and breastfed. So, um, vaginal birth. If, if. Unless there's a serious medical indication that says you should add a Syrian section.

[00:13:38] Vaginal birth is very good for the mother and very good for the infant.

[00:13:43] Carl Lanore: [00:13:43] If you want to learn more about C-section, uh, and its effects. I mean, we can't cover everything in this particular show, but the, the thing to do is to go to amazon.com and look for this book to Syrian section in American history of risk, technology and consequences.

[00:13:57] Uh, and educate yourself. [00:14:00] Because this is the, so while you, while you pointed out that there's a six month window of a D changes in let's say, diversity of the microbiome and the baby, you know, those early seeds stick around and we know now that microbes in the gut, they, they kind of are, um, clannish. They tend to group together.

[00:14:24] They like to be. Uh, with their ilk, you know? And so as a result of that, we know that that actually sets up a trend for diversity as the child grows. And if you're not breastfeeding, it's a double whammy because the Arriola is another area where the baby gets a lot of microbes.

[00:14:46] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:14:46] No, that's right. And also, if you're breastfed, you also share your mother's adult immune system.

[00:14:51] But if you know, there's sickness in the household, the least likely person to get sick is a breastfeeding infant because they're getting immediate, you know, [00:15:00] within their mother is immediately making antibodies to whatever sickness is taking place in the household and it's excreted in her milk. Babies get first call on that.

[00:15:09] And, um, it's, you know, babies have immature immune system. Immune systems and evolution assured that they'd have ready access to an adult immune system until their immune system was more mature. That's breast, that's breastfeeding.

[00:15:23] Carl Lanore: [00:15:23] So I was a C-section baby. I got formula because that was the right thing for parents to do back then, and I have been plagued with allergies my whole life.

[00:15:33] As a young kid, I used to get black and blue. They thought somebody was beating me. And every, when I ate chocolate and peanuts, I was allergic to chocolate, peanuts. If I ate chocolate or peanuts, like the blood vessels burst in my skin and it looked like a, um, a yellowish blue Mark,

[00:15:48] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:15:48] you know, curl. I, I, you know, I'm, I, I don't presume to guess your age, but, but you're absolutely right, that in the 1950s and sixties, for sure, if the age

[00:15:57] Carl Lanore: [00:15:57] 58.

[00:15:58] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:15:58] Exactly the, [00:16:00] in that era, doctors were even told that that formula is scientific. We can do better than human milk formula is fortified with all kinds of vitamins and minerals. And, and why would you breastfeed when science, when science has created this wonderful invention? I mean, that's. So that's the hubris of human kind that we thought we could do better than a hundred thousand years of human evolution.

[00:16:24] The reason mammals are so senior, singularly successful in populating the entire planet is because we carry our food with us and we don't have to worry about our babies surviving because we manufacture our food even in very inhospitable environments.

[00:16:39] Carl Lanore: [00:16:39] Yeah, no, it's amazing. So. So, so, so what else do we see?

[00:16:44] So we see asthma and that's probably wet lung and some microbiome, uh, diversities or, or, or trends in the baby. What, what else do we see from children who were not born vaginally?

[00:16:56] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:16:56] Well, can I, you know, can we back up a little minutes [00:17:00] up a little bit and ask a historical question? Cause here, here we've talked about how, um.

[00:17:06] Mothers are the maternal mortality rate is, is almost five times what it is that when compared with a vaginal birth. So you have too many mothers dying, and we currently have the highest maternal mortality rate by far of any wealthy country in the world. Yes. Not only that, we are the only wealthy country whose maternal mortality rate is increasing since it's almost increased four fold since the 1980s and a lot of it can be traced to our high Sicilian section rate.

[00:17:39] Um, mothers are dying of what they've always died of in the past. They die of infection or hemorrhage, and thank goodness we have antibiotics now, which is why the maternal mortality rate has gone way down since the 1950s. Um. But blood loss are still very serious. And one of the ways mothers are dying, and this is, this is a very scary [00:18:00] story because, um, we think when we have a Syrian section of the steering section is done.

[00:18:06] The mother was fine, everything's okay, but there are downstream effects. What we're seeing in subsequent birth sector mothers had once the Syrian and with each insincerity and the risk gets greater, we're seeing problems with the placenta that become life threatening, not just to the infant, but to the mother.

[00:18:25] Carl Lanore: [00:18:25] My son chase, my son chase, had such a calcified placenta. That was the second C-section that my ex wife had. And that they, they sent it off to be studied because it literally looked like it was filled with plaster and he was, uh, he was, uh, he was an emergency Csection we weren't planning on going to the hospital.

[00:18:47] And my ex wife said she felt funny and we went and they put them on the hot monitor. They said, we're going right in now to take them because they, apparently he was, something was being robbed of him. And it was because he wasn't, he didn't have anything wrapped around him. He was in [00:19:00] distress. They said it was because of the placenta.

[00:19:02] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:19:02] Well, let me, let me tell you what's happening with the placenta that is actually killing women at very frightening rates. Um. Placenta accreta used to be so rare, and what placenta accreta is, placenta accreta is when the placenta adheres to the side of the uterus in such an abnormal way that after the baby is born, the placenta doesn't detach and the woman begins to hemorrhage.

[00:19:26] Um, now what's happening is. That placenta created in the 1950s occurred in one in 30,000 births. Very rare so that an obstetrician could live three lifetimes and never see an accreta. We are now seeing it happen in one in 500 births. That's a five fold increase, not 55% times

[00:19:50] Carl Lanore: [00:19:50] 55000% it's actually 55000%.

[00:19:54] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:19:54] Exactly. Because what's happening is that the placenta is growing into the uterine scar [00:20:00] from a previous Assyrian and in such an abnormal way that the placenta can't detach. 70% of women who have a placenta accreta die. Almost a hundred percent of them will lose their uterus because the only way to save the mother is just Urus.

[00:20:15] I interviewed one physician who had just had a mother in his hospital die of an accreta the week before, and he said to me, I mean, it's still absolutely horrifies me. When I remember what he said, he said to me, 72 units of blood. The entire hospital stopped. Now the human body for a female has about eight, eight units of blood.

[00:20:38] They were so desperate to save that poor mother 72 units and she died. And that's what's happening with sincere in sections that aren't necessarily, we're killing women. And here I'm quoting an obstetrician saying this, we are killing women with all these Assyrians. And unless they're medically necessary, they shouldn't be done.

[00:20:58] Carl Lanore: [00:20:58] I want to talk about what [00:21:00] necessitates Assyrian so we can understand what the bar is also as 5400% I'm sorry, I got a little overzealous. I was looking at my E trade account earlier, and that's where that came from. We're going to take going. I'm sorry.

[00:21:12] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:21:12] I just want to be sure that we talk about why we've normalized the Syrians.

[00:21:15] Carl Lanore: [00:21:15] Okay, so when we come back, let's start out with why we can normalize this Syrian and then let's talk about what the thresholds should be. Well, you know, for, for really using this a high risk approach at delivering a baby. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. Or superhuman, right? Yeah. This is the superhuman channel where we use oxygen for the power of good.

[00:21:41] Welcome back. We're talking with Jackie Wolf about her new books, Assyrian section on American history of risk technology. And consequences. You can get This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. it's actually going to come out in a soft cover right

[00:21:57] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:21:57] in paperback at the end of

[00:21:58] Carl Lanore: [00:21:58] March. There you go. So it'll be [00:22:00] even less expensive, and it's a really must read book.

[00:22:02] You know, if you don't read this book, even if you had children already, if you don't read this book, then how can you advise your, your children later on in life if you don't have this information? Is there anything more important than childbirth? Think about it from an evolutionary perspective. Job number one is to have children.

[00:22:19] It's not even to live long or to have a house that was Maslov's thing. Alright? Nature just want you to have children. The trajectory of the species must continue. So this is, this is job one. And how can you make an educated decision on something that's not only going to impact your life, but the life of your offspring?

[00:22:39] Uh, you know, it's. It, it, it, it baffles the mind. So this is a really, really important book. So talk about a denormalization of, of a Sicilian section. We promise to go back

[00:22:49] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:22:49] to that. So here we show, we're talking about all the problems that too many Syrians create. And that became my central research question.

[00:22:56] So why on earth did we end up with the 33 one in three women [00:23:00] in the U S having major abdominal surgery to give birth? How did that happen? Now.

[00:23:07] Carl Lanore: [00:23:07] How much, how much going on over, but really how much does it cost to deliver a baby vaginally versus to Syrian section's gotta be more Syrian section.

[00:23:14] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:23:14] Absolutely. Is the insurance. Yes. The imbursement, the reimbursement rate for both physicians and hospitals is depending on the area, but it, it's the average. It's about twice as much. Twice, twice. The. Reimbursement rate. Um, and that's for an uncomplicated Syrian with no complications. Um, so, and most of them do have complications for both the baby and the mother.

[00:23:37] So then the cost becomes even higher. Now, you know, I'm not one to say that doctors necessarily are, so mercenary or hospitals are so mercenary that they consciously elevate the Syrian rate. But births are most hospitals, bread and butter. There's no question about it. So, so somehow this just, this does weigh in.

[00:23:57] Um, but that's only part of the story. A very, very [00:24:00] small part actually. But the reason I asked just hearing section rate, um, increased 455%. Between 1970 and 1987 so in, in noting that I said, what on earth happened in 1970s starting section rate began to go up so rapidly happened was the introduction of the electronic fetal monitor.

[00:24:24] And I should, I should note that things don't just happen in medicine without something else happening in the culture at large. So I can, I'll explain in a few minutes why the culture at large excepted the electronic fetal monitor so readily. But the big problem with the monitor was normally when you introduce such a big change to a normal medical practice, like birth, you want to test what you're doing.

[00:24:47] You want to make sure this monitor really is necessary and is effective. And it was introduced without a single trial. What should have been done is that women should have been randomized. This is the [00:25:00] way medical trials are conducted, randomized, and they would, they would either, um. Do what the old way that is, have the fetal heartbeat monitored every 20 to 30 minutes with a fetal step of sculpt or do it the new way with the electronic fetal monitor.

[00:25:18] That was that. There was no testing done right. Then the thought was, why would you waste time testing? It will be so helpful if we can tell immediately if the baby's in distress, and the theory was that we'd even re even completely get rid of cerebral palsy. We'd be able to tell if a fetus was in distress, cerebral palsy would be wiped off the face of the earth.

[00:25:41] The cerebral palsy rate. Now that virtually 100% of of birth. Hospital births are monitored for the time. Fetal monitor hasn't gone down even a fraction of 1%, because we know now this rebill palsy develops pretty early in fetal development. We think certainly smoking has an effect on, on that. Um, [00:26:00] but it's not very, very rarely is it some kind of birth accident that happens while you're in labor.

[00:26:07] So the electronic fetal monitor was introduced. Um, people became incredibly nervous about the monitor strips and the inventor of the monitor, Edward Tran, who was a Yale university obstetrician, his famous quote, when you kept seeing the C-section rate go up, he said, if all his colleagues around the country, he said, quote, cause it's his, his words, they're dropping the knife with each drop in the fetal heart rate.

[00:26:30] They would see, you know, people didn't know how the fetus reacted to the contractions. Monitor the heart rate every single millisecond of labor. You know, every 20 to 30 minutes, they'd listen for a minute and they, fetal heart tones would look good if, if the contraction was going on, they would, you know, weight loss.

[00:26:49] Again, the fetus was fine, but in seeing all those, all those curves on the fetal monitor strip, everyone got nervous and wouldn't rush. This is the, this is, [00:27:00] if someone pressed me on the number one reason for this. Sudden rapid increase. It was the electronic fetal monitor.

[00:27:06] Carl Lanore: [00:27:06] People freaked out, Oh my God, my baby's going to die.

[00:27:08] Take 'em, take 'em

[00:27:10] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:27:10] and, and, and that's the normalization of staring section two, the women I interviewed many, many women who had some staring sections. Those of those who met Syrians in the 1970s is the rate was going up. They were furious about the sincerity ans they didn't anticipated, uh, they didn't know anyone who had ever had a sincerity in to this day.

[00:27:29] I each of meet them 40 years later and they were. Stills, so they could conjure up that old anger. But you interview women who had babies in the 1990s by Syrian, and all of them say, my baby's life was saved. Now 33% of babies did not need to be saved from childbirth. Right. Um, but again, that's what comes with normalization.

[00:27:52] When women know people who had Syrians, when they anticipate, of course, I might need a Syrian. They accept it. And [00:28:00] that's what normalization is all about. You begin to anticipate it and everyone, doctors in mothers to like accept it. And that's the problem with normal .

[00:28:08] Carl Lanore: [00:28:08] That's what it is. Th that's where we are today.

[00:28:10] In fact, a, I want to put this up real quick. So we have a couple other, uh, boards that I'm monitoring here. And, uh, Anders Olson commented earlier that Brazil is at 55%. Apparently they are, uh, the country with the highest. Level of Syrian sections.

[00:28:30] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:28:30] Is that true? Yeah, it absolutely is true. And I'll get to Brazil in one minute.

[00:28:34] I just want to add, cause I want to finish the story about electronic fetal monitoring. Um, eight years after the monitor was introduced and hospitals had accepted it and every single, uh, sector residency, um, hospital, the hidden obstetric residency had introduced the monitors. So, uh, residents were being trained on the monitor.

[00:28:53] Only then did they test it eight years later and they randomized women justice I described. And that's when they [00:29:00] discovered the monitor wasn't helping anyone. It wasn't, it wasn't, um, it wasn't lowering cerebral palsy rates. It wasn't lowering admission to the neonatal intensive care unit. It wasn't, it wasn't, um, getting better at our scores.

[00:29:15] It was, had no benefit to the fetus whatsoever. The only thing it was doing was increasing necessary infection rate. The women who had the head of the fetal stethoscope. Well had the same old Syrian rates at always been between four and 6% women randomized, you get to electronic fetal monitor we're having,

[00:29:36] Carl Lanore: [00:29:36] that's where the 30% is coming from.

[00:29:38] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:29:38] So, so the electronic fetal monitor has been a real problem.

[00:29:41] Carl Lanore: [00:29:41] So what you're basically saying is the, the human population worries too much though, because when you think about it, right? So we couldn't hear the heartbeat before except intermittently when we went and checked. But as soon as we could hear it all the time.

[00:29:53] No one ever thought to say to themselves, well, maybe that's the way it's always been, and we just haven't been hearing it. That, which is the natural [00:30:00] inclination

[00:30:00] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:30:00] or even knowing that that the stress of baby, the stress of fetus may go under during a contraction is biologically good. Right. Oh yes, and again, there's so many things that we still don't know and we're just beginning to learn about the microbiome, which we discussed earlier.

[00:30:17] The same with contractions. What

[00:30:19] Carl Lanore: [00:30:19] now?

[00:30:20] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:30:20] Surely it must confer some benefit on the fetus. We don't know what it is, but surely it must

[00:30:27] Carl Lanore: [00:30:27] interesting, you know, from an evolutionary perspective, as a species, we are really poorly designed to deliver. Uh, babies. If you, if I had a Dr. Daniel Lieberman on my show and we talked about this, and then I had somebody else, and we talked about why there's a reason men are attracted to women with wide hips because from an evolutionary perspective, she could deliver a baby with a big head.

[00:30:48] Really, that's what it came down to, to be crude.

[00:30:51] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:30:51] When we began walking upright. Um, we needed slimmer hips. I mean, the reason the great apes are ancient ancestors are, are [00:31:00] not by Peatal. They still, you know, use all four of their limbs to walk is because they have very wide hips, quite quite easy births compared to humans.

[00:31:11] So it is true that the compromise was so evolution. You had to decide, was walking the benefit or was having an easy birth to benefit, and somehow they decided walking. Was of enough benefit that then human females would have difficult,

[00:31:25] Carl Lanore: [00:31:25] right? I mean, really impossible, uh, deliveries. Because when you look at, as evolution took place, our heads did get bigger, our shoulders got smaller, our, you know, we, and all of a sudden our head in proportion to our body became a very large object.

[00:31:41] You know, some women say like squeezing a, uh, a bowling ball through a change purse. And so we, we wouldn't like. From an evolutionary perspective, we were really poorly designed to have offspring. Now combined that with the fact that our job is to have offspring, and it's really quite humorous that we even got as far as we [00:32:00] did.

[00:32:00] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:32:00] Well, that's also why clearly. Get tight, tight, tight, squeeze through the birth canal really is of great benefit. Yeah, absolutely. Let me ask you a question about Brazil because Brazil is such an interesting case. Um, you're absolutely right. Overall, the CSX rate in Brazil is 55% but it's astronomically higher in private hospitals.

[00:32:22] Carl Lanore: [00:32:22] Presumably. This is true.

[00:32:24] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:32:24] Brazil has a two tiered health system of public hospitals and private hospitals. In private hospitals, the rate is closer to 90% there are obstetricians in Brazil who have never attended a vaginal birth. Never attended earth. Now let me explain, and fiscal is back to the normalization of this surgery in Brazil.

[00:32:43] It's so normalized that in private hospitals, their entire wings of private hospitals, they have videographers that work with women to design videos, check videotape, their fit, their Syrian birth. They work, they work with the [00:33:00] videographer to choose. The beginning of the, you know what, what it's gonna look like.

[00:33:04] You know, the entrance to the hospital, the smiling father holding the baby at the end. They have cartoon characters. They choose the music. They have these characters flooding in and out of the birth with the music they've chosen. So it's so normalized that women are taught to like a wedding. They choose their videographer, they choose the kind of video they want to take.

[00:33:26] They go and they get their hair done. They get their bodies waxed before the Syrian. Um, I worked with a graduate student who was doing her dissertation on, uh, two sharing sections in Brazil, and she interviewed women who said, I have to be beautiful for my beautiful baby. So there's also a ritual of going to the beauty parlor before your Syrian birth.

[00:33:46] Carl Lanore: [00:33:46] So Brazil is also the winner of another award, the, the highest, uh, per capita use of plastic surgery than anywhere else in the world. You know, women in Brazil have butt implants, boob [00:34:00] implants. They have their faces done. In fact, it's a sign of a culture. It's like, you know, when you have work done, it's because you're affluent.

[00:34:08] You probably have a private hospital that you go to. So Brazil is also known for being, uh, the highest consumer of plastic surgery. Botox is like, no big thing. I think people do their own Botox in Brazil. Uh, but, but with that being said, I wonder if there is a vanity. Component to this for women, because Brazil is also one of the hot Latin countries, you know, with sexuality is right in your face and all that sort of stuff.

[00:34:35] And, and I wonder if there's a like, Oh, I don't want to have anything happen to my vagina.

[00:34:41] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:34:41] Hey, it very well could be. I know, I know much more about the American situation. Uh, that I do about the Brazilian situation in terms of the culture. Um, but certainly, again, when it's normalized among wealthy Brazilians, and it's very, very class-based among wealthy Brazilians, they don't even consider vaginal birth.

[00:34:58] Um, in fact, [00:35:00] that the, um, the word, the Portuguese word for an obstetrician who will attend a vaginal birth is parte row, which is, uh, roughly translated as male midwife, which is kind of a denigration. Um, you know, midwives are wonderful. But, but in Brazil, it's considered only the lowest of low class people would, would need a midwife, and that's the term for a physician willing to attend.

[00:35:23] A vaginal birth is essentially translated as a male middle.

[00:35:25] Carl Lanore: [00:35:25] I would love to hear that paper when it's done about Brazil because I would love to see if we see a greater extension of a lot of the things we're discovering here in the United States that are conferred or not conferred to the baby and effecting the immune system and so on in Brazil to see if it goes through the roof.

[00:35:41] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:35:41] That would be interesting. I have to say one thing that's been very scary and I'm waiting for more information about it. There's a correlation now. There's not a causation yet, and so it's very important to point out. We don't have a causation, but currently there's a correlation now between autism. And so Syrian birth as well.

[00:35:57] They're seeing a much higher rate of autism [00:36:00] among babies born by cesarean section. Now again, this is a correlation we, we don't know if there's a real, a true causation here, but it's been in the headlines just in the last few months, and that's something we need to watch very cliff very closely.

[00:36:13] Carl Lanore: [00:36:13] Well, you know, th th th the thing with the autism is that it's such a large number in the population today that I'm sure that we're going to see overlaps in a lot of things just because of its sheer number of.

[00:36:25] Of of individuals that are in that pool.

[00:36:28] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:36:28] I'm sure the causality is very complex as well. I talk a little bit, I talked a little bit about electronic fetal monitoring. I'd like to explain how the culture at large also fed into acceptance of the FEMA.

[00:36:40] Carl Lanore: [00:36:40] Can you stay with me for longer than the hour then?

[00:36:44] Sure. Okay. Okay, good. Cause we have a couple of questions to answer too, so go ahead and go ahead and fill us in on that.

[00:36:50] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:36:50] Okay. Um, so the question became then why on earth did women except electronic fetal monitor so quickly in 1970? Um, because it's very [00:37:00] invasive, it's very intrusive. Women are, are, are tethered to the bed that can't walk around, which is very uncommon.

[00:37:05] Carl Lanore: [00:37:05] Is it, is it there a chance of actually tearing the placenta? And I'm not the tearing the amniotic SAC, uh, when it's placed or removed or something like that.

[00:37:15] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:37:15] Well, we eat originally. You're right. I mean, when they were first used, the monitor was placed internally. Mo mostly it's

[00:37:21] Carl Lanore: [00:37:21] extra

[00:37:22] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:37:22] belly. So, so that, that isn't, that isn't a problem now.

[00:37:26] But one of the reasons it was so widely accepted was the birth was in the news in a very negative way in the 1960s. Um, we talked about Jackie Kennedy's births. It was, it was kind of horrifying to see, uh, the president's wife have an emergency Syrian section. Very premature babies. Um, they had a baby die when he was president.

[00:37:45] Their son Patrick died just a few days after birth because he was born so prematurely. Um, so that was in the news a lot. Thalidomide was in the news a lot. Solidimide which was a sedative. The pregnant women took that created horrific birth defects with babies, [00:38:00] with hands growing out of their shoulders.

[00:38:01] No arms, feet growing out of the hips with no legs. Um Hmm. Uh, there was a German measles epidemic in 1965, which also created a lot of birth defects. So there was so much fear around birth and so much, so much anxiety around pregnancy that when you live trying to fetal monitor was introduced. It wasn't just the medical culture that accepted it, but the wider culture thought, thank goodness for science.

[00:38:24] Thank goodness we have this wonderful piece of equipment to can save our babies.

[00:38:28] Carl Lanore: [00:38:28] No, that makes perfect sense. Um, I want, I want to take a quick commercial break. When we come back, I want to talk, I want to get back on track with the threshold. Uh, or that necessitates, uh, a legitimate Sicilian section as opposed to the way we're using it today.

[00:38:43] We're talking with a Draplin, a Wolf. Her book is a Syrian section in American history of risk technology and consequences can get an amazon.com shortly. There will be a paperback, which makes it a lot less expensive. And you know what, if you've had children already, you [00:39:00] probably know people aren't going to have kids.

[00:39:01] That you love and you care about. Educate yourself about this because 30% one in three, I mean, that's a lot of fallout.

[00:39:09] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:39:09] That's a lot of folks. I'd also like to talk about three ways. Like we can end this by talking about three ways women can minimize their chances of having cereal.

[00:39:17] Carl Lanore: [00:39:17] I love solution-based shows.

[00:39:19] They too

[00:39:21] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:39:21] move

[00:39:21] Carl Lanore: [00:39:21] over superheroes. This is this superhuman chapel.

[00:39:29] Welcome back.

[00:39:33] We're going to wait for the pit. Hey,

[00:39:40] welcome back. We're talking with Jacquelyn Wolf. The book is a Syrian section and an American history of risk, technology and consequences the book can be This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. It's really a very, very important book. Many of you may not think this is a very sexy book, but I think it's very important. Uh, so we wanted to talk about a couple of [00:40:00] things when we came back.

[00:40:01] Um, can I jump to a topic real quick and then we can pick up what you want? The what, what did you want to cover again? You said there was something you wanted to go back on.

[00:40:10] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:40:10] Well, well, certainly, certainly I want to, I want to talk about, um, this, the Syrians can be lifesaving. I do want to talk about the indications for areas.

[00:40:19] Carl Lanore: [00:40:19] Okay. Yeah, that's it. So what really necessitates a legitimate Syrian section.

[00:40:23] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:40:23] Um, and I want to emphasize that too. So Syrian sections can be lifesaving. Um, and it's, it, it. It's very important and it's important that we, um, have much better guidelines for when necessary and B be performed. So the women who need them actually get them, and the women who don't need them don't get them.

[00:40:43] Um, some of the indications for Assyrian are placenta previa, which is when the placenta grows and covers the cervical opening so that the baby can be born vaginally. That would be one reason. Persistent transfer slide the fetus where the fetus is lying sideways in the wound. Um, [00:41:00] and you've been unable to get the fetus to move.

[00:41:04] That also necess necessitates this Assyrian pregnancy induced hypertension where the women, uh, where the mother's blood pressure becomes very, very high. That's a very serious life threatening condition. And the only way to bring blood pressure down when you have pregnancy induced hypertension is to performance Syrian and remove the

[00:41:22] Carl Lanore: [00:41:22] fetus.

[00:41:23] Why not? Why not? Why not phlebotomy? I mean, it seems to me that if phlebotomy is the mother, if a mother is developing, and I know it isn't that part of the whole preeclampsia thing, but that that, and that's actually been even tied to some other,

[00:41:40] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:41:40] I'm not a physician and I, okay. Would bring your blood pressure down.

[00:41:44] Carl Lanore: [00:41:44] Oh yeah. If you have 10 pints of blood and you remove one  the hemodynamics change, your blood pressure comes down.

[00:41:51] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:41:51] Well, I don't know. I wouldn't know.

[00:41:54] Carl Lanore: [00:41:54] I'm just thinking out loud. I'm like, you know, if you, if you have a mother that's really, really high, blood pressure has gone up. [00:42:00] You just take a pint out, her blood pressure will drop.

[00:42:02] Now, you know, the, the, the spleen and bone marrow and water consumption will replenish that volume in as much as a day and a half or two. But that just seems, well, anyway, so that's neither here nor there. But there are, but that's another legitimate reason.

[00:42:19] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:42:19] Okay. Yes. A cord prolapse would be a legitimate reason.

[00:42:22] That's when the umbilical cord, uh, no, the umbilical cord, um, comes down the birth canal before the baby does, so that they could then crush the umbilical cord and the baby then would, would, you know, be struck, started to oxygen prolapse is life threatening condition that neces necessitates.

[00:42:39] Carl Lanore: [00:42:39] So what about just when the baby gets the cord wrapped around them.

[00:42:43] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:42:43] Well, you know that, that you don't necessarily know until after the baby's born. And I've actually been at two births where the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck. It's not that unusual. And frankly. The fetus has a very high tolerance for hypoxia and most babies are born, [00:43:00] um, bluish in color because they have really, they're not adults and they're not older children.

[00:43:05] They have a very high tolerance for hypoxia. And yeah, you want to move quickly if the cord is wrapped around a baby's neck, but you know, that happens with, with more frequency than you would know.

[00:43:15] Carl Lanore: [00:43:15] Hmm. Interesting. Interesting. So what are all the other reasons that you think, uh, obviously if the mother was in a car accident and they have to take the baby.

[00:43:24] Well,

[00:43:26] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:43:26] yeah. If, if, if somehow, yeah, I mean, I, I, it depends on the mother's condition. I mean, I don't know, but, but the point I want to make, I mean, I pretty well exhausted the list of, of common pregnancy situations where you that necessitate a Syrian in that case would be like saving. And each one of those placenta previa, pregnancy induced hypertension, cord prolapse, a transfer slide, the fetus, they occur in considerably less than 1% of birds.

[00:43:53] So part of my point is that even when you need a Syrian, I mean, we're, that proves that we're, [00:44:00] that we are performing far too many at far in a very great cost to women's and children's health.

[00:44:07] Carl Lanore: [00:44:07] Our mothers being lulled into this, uh, you know, they, they, no matter what they do in the hospital, they make you sign that thing that if you die, it's not their fault.

[00:44:15] But do you think that there's a, a, a casual air when talking about Sicilian section where mothers thing. You know, maybe this will be better. I'll just get the baby out. And

[00:44:26] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:44:26] it's part of the problem that that's exactly what comes with normalization. Once you know people who've heads the Syrians, you know, a lot of friends, a lot of relatives, everyone's fine.

[00:44:37] You just, you know, you anticipate the fact that you very well might need to see Syrian. And that's how you end up getting a higher and ever higher rate because the more it's accepted by the culture at large, and the more it's accepted by the medical culture, that the higher the rate goes and the harder it is to bring it down.

[00:44:56] Carl Lanore: [00:44:56] Jeff Clifton, uh, asked on Facebook if swabbing [00:45:00] the, the newborn with, you know, the placenta, the blood, the drippings and all sorts of, and just wrapping the baby around all that. Does that help any with the transference of the microbiome?

[00:45:12] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:45:12] You know, there are hospitals that are beginning to do that and there are obstetricians who are beginning to do that.

[00:45:18] They've only begun to do it. I don't know of any test results that have come out showing the effect because you would have to look at it over a years to see if it really had had a, had a positive effect on the child. I worry about this as a solution though. Because it then would add to normalizing. So Syrian section that you could, you could say to yourself, eh, we'll just swap the mother's vagina and then coat the baby with her, with her, you know, with her vaginal microbiome and problem solved.

[00:45:46] And clearly that doesn't solve the problem. Um,

[00:45:49] Carl Lanore: [00:45:49] so if I understand that the mother has to be the one to be educated about this, and we're going to talk about. [00:46:00] How to keep yourself from having to have one in a second, but we are all at the mercy of doctors in our lives, right? Doctors say you need this, and we believe them because we believe they really want to help us, and sometimes we do things that we really don't want to do because the doctor said that that's the thing we should do.

[00:46:20] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:46:20] And of course a laboring woman is far more vulnerable than your average, uh, patient because here she is, you know, about to become a new mother. If a doctor told a new mother in labor, in order to save your baby, we're going to have to cut off your arm. Most mothers would say, well just give me on a Stesha and cut off my

[00:46:38] Carl Lanore: [00:46:38] heart.

[00:46:38] Make it, make it the left cause I'm writing

[00:46:42] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:46:42] actually cut off the left arm cause I. So, so, you know, and the problem is informed consent flies out the window when you're in labor. And, um, yes, if you're told your, your baby's in trouble, you're willing to do anything, anything. Um, and that too is part of the [00:47:00] medical culture and it's something that we really need to figure out how to solve.

[00:47:04] Um, because again, you know, I go back to the, to the fact that, that, you know, the, the, the death rate of mothers, even, even before we hit any antibiotics. And, um. And blood banking, even in the, even in the 17th century, we know from midwives diaries that fewer than one half of 1% of mothers died in childbirth.

[00:47:25] Now that's a horrifically high rate. Today, we would never accept such a high rate of maternal death, but, um, but it's much lower than we would ever expect.

[00:47:35] Carl Lanore: [00:47:35] That surprise me. That's surprising.

[00:47:37] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:47:37] Well, we didn't have antibiotics and we didn't have any way to store and transfuse blood. That's why mothers died.

[00:47:44] We can, we can solve. We can, you know, we can,

[00:47:47] Carl Lanore: [00:47:47] yeah, we have those covered.

[00:47:49] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:47:49] We have those covered. So, you know, I go back to. Very few bursts, rent ran into trouble. Um, we can document that looking at 19th century obstetric records, about 5% of [00:48:00] human bursts run into trouble. 5%. The, and this was before we had antibiotics and blood banking.

[00:48:06] So we end up with a 33% Syrian rate. It's a, again, it's a very complicated story. We have skimmed the surface in our conversation, but I think I listeners are getting the idea of this has been, um, culturally induced, not medical reason for us.

[00:48:21] Carl Lanore: [00:48:21] So what can women do to avoid, uh, having to have a C section?

[00:48:28] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:48:28] You can do three simple things. Number one, that the wealthy countries that have much, and again, we have the highest maternal mortality rate and the highest infant mortality rates of any wealthy country. Everyone is ahead of us, Japan, Australia, all the European countries. Shocking

[00:48:46] Carl Lanore: [00:48:46] to me.

[00:48:47] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:48:47] And it should be.

[00:48:48] It really, it should be a national disgrace. It should be national news. And frankly, the maternal mortality rate has been in the headlines lately because it's so, so high and it keeps going [00:49:00] higher in the U S we are an anomaly among countries where our rate keeps going up. So the countries, the wealthy countries and countries like us that have much better rates.

[00:49:10] They're frontline providers for maternal care are midwives, not obstetricians. The midwives are the gatekeepers. The midwives are the ones who say you're high risk. You do need to see an obstetrician. So I say the women consider, rather than going to an obstetrician and obstetrics is a surgical specialty.

[00:49:30] That's the key here.

[00:49:31] Carl Lanore: [00:49:31] Going to a surgeon.

[00:49:32] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:49:32] You're going to a surgeon for birth.

[00:49:35] Carl Lanore: [00:49:35] You know, I never thought about that right here. I've never thought about that. You're going to a surgeon. What do you think he's going to want to do to you?

[00:49:42] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:49:42] It's a surgical specialty. Obstetrics and gynecology is a cert. It's classified as a surgical specialty, so consider going to a family physician who are licensed to deliver babies as well.

[00:49:52] Qualified or a midwife. And there are some wonderful birthing centers, especially in large cities, um, that are very low [00:50:00] tech. You don't have, you don't have an option. They don't even have electronic fetal monitoring. Consider midwives as your frontline provider or family doctor. That's number one. Number two, unless there's a medical reason.

[00:50:12] Do not get induced labor induction. That is abnormal labor. If you want a normal birth, you want normal labor on your side, and induction is not normal labor. Um, much contractions are much harder to weather. Much more painful, much more rapid. So they're much more stress on the, on the fetus as well as the mother.

[00:50:35] Um, unless there's a medical reason for induction decline, induction, don't let them

[00:50:39] Carl Lanore: [00:50:39] adopt to that. And that's basically a Pitocin, uh, uh, infusion, right? If this oxytocin infusion 10 milligrams a minute or something like that,

[00:50:47] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:50:47] and I be dripped with Pitocin, which is basically, um, a young person. Exactly. It's, it's R, it's artificial oxytocin, right?

[00:50:57] Yes. Which is what stimulates labor is [00:51:00] oxytocin, which is a normal hormone in the body. The third thing women can do is labor as long as possible at home, because you shouldn't go into the hospital. You shouldn't get checked in until your contractions are so difficult to weather that you have trouble talking, that you start gastric.

[00:51:17] Uh, you know that you talk that when you have a contraction,

[00:51:21] Carl Lanore: [00:51:21] that is the complete opposite of what everyone does, right? Everybody. Has a bag packed already. You come home from dinner, your wife's got gas. Oh, it may be contractions. Let's go to the hospital. I'm not being facetious there. There were a lot of women who get sent home and say, no, you just have gas.

[00:51:39] That's not a contraction.

[00:51:41] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:51:41] Yeah. No, it's, it's really important to stay home because if you can labor as long as you can at home, there are far fewer interventions that you're going to end up within the hospital. Now, I have to say some of the young women that I've told this to. Um, they were a little bit nervous about staying calm, even though they lived in [00:52:00] a large city.

[00:52:00] I'm thinking of one young woman in particular, so she and her husband sat in the hospital parking lot in their car while she was in labor. They played cards. They listen to music. They taught, um, because they felt more comfortable being near the hospital.

[00:52:13] Carl Lanore: [00:52:13] But I can understand that traffic, you know, you don't know what you're gonna encounter on the way there.

[00:52:18] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:52:18] But she did follow my advice about she labored as long as she could in her car as opposed to at home. Um, which, you know, that was the spirit of my advice, but I'm, you know, I'm just saying that the, the longer you can labor, not in the hospital, the less likely you are to undergo all kinds of interventions.

[00:52:34] And there's a slippery slope. Again, we can talk about this forever, that once you get one intervention, it leads to others. It leads to others. Because once you have, for example, labor induction, you can't weather that without an epidural of the labor is just too painful and hard and epidural too, that your blood pressure confide them out with an epidural.

[00:52:51] It has your fever can

[00:52:52] Carl Lanore: [00:52:52] spite. Nevermind that w you know, they poke you in the spine. Sometimes you go home for months, you have problems, you have pain [00:53:00] or numbness or, I mean that's.

[00:53:02] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:53:02] My cousin's wife actually, they place the place, the, he, she had a spinal and they placed it up too high and it froze her, her lungs.

[00:53:11] She couldn't breathe and they had to, they had to knock her out and put her on a respirator.

[00:53:17] Carl Lanore: [00:53:17] Oh

[00:53:18] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:53:18] yeah. No, it was actually, her story ended up in, in, in my book. Um, and she ended up with three area sections. So, um, that, that's an outlier. That's,

[00:53:27] Carl Lanore: [00:53:27] that's kinda think about it. If you don't go in. Too soon where they go, Oh, let's do something with her.

[00:53:35] You know, she's just sitting in there waiting for her contractures to let's do something with her. You know, if you don't go with you, if you labor for as long as you can, and if you're nervous, you go, go and sit in the parking lot. I love to get to the airport really early. There's a lot of people that literally race in, grab their bags, go through security, and they just sit down when the, I don't like that.

[00:53:52] I like, I like to walk in. If I want to read a book, I want to read a book. I get there a couple hours early, so if you're one of those people sit in the parking lot at the hospital, that's [00:54:00] all.

[00:54:00] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:54:00] No, no, exactly. Exactly. If you have faith in your body, you know, I mean, we don't have enough faith in women's bodies and frankly, we evolved.

[00:54:08] Just as you said at the outset of this podcast, we evolve to, to replicate. We evolved to reproduce. We evolved to have babies and our bodies work incredibly well. Um,

[00:54:20] Carl Lanore: [00:54:20] we're not taught that, you know, and the other problem is that the, that the average human being is very myopic. It's about what they're doing today.

[00:54:28] They forget what they learned. They didn't even learn things. We don't, we don't teach these types of things. You know, for hundreds of thousands of years, we gave birth in jungles.

[00:54:38] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:54:38] And, and frankly, when you're, when you're tethered to the bed, it labor takes longer. When you're walking around, labor progresses more rapidly.

[00:54:47] And again, that's part of the problem with electronic fetal monitor is that women can't move around once they're us, they're stuck on the monitor. So we could, we could go on and on with this story. You

[00:54:57] Carl Lanore: [00:54:57] have to wear a fetal monitor once you get into the hospital [00:55:00] visit. Can you say, I don't want the fetal monitor.

[00:55:02] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:55:02] You have an absolute right to refuse the fetal monitor.

[00:55:05] Carl Lanore: [00:55:05] So maybe women should do that.

[00:55:07] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:55:07] Just like any patient, you have the right to refuse anything the doctor offers you. It's your legal right.

[00:55:13] Carl Lanore: [00:55:13] Uh, the book is called to Syrian section an American history of risk, technology and consequences. The consequences are still playing out.

[00:55:22] It'll be a 50 another 50 years before we realize all of us who were born in the fifties, um, C-section formula, the introduction of vaccines. Uh, we, we just don't know what we're playing with here. And it's going to be a long time before people can actually figure it out. But the reality is that, uh, if we have to deliver babies the way we would genetically designed to deliver babies and we have to stop this madness, that's all.

[00:55:50] That's all I'm going to say about that. Cause I don't have to have babies. Cause if it was up to me, there'd be one person on the planet, it'd be me cause I'm not having any babies. It's too risky. It's too much trouble. [00:56:00] Thank God for women that they're willing to do it. I gotta be honest with you. Cause if guys had to have babies, we would have been extinct years ago, long time ago,

[00:56:08] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:56:08] and women will tell you it's totally worth it.

[00:56:12] It's totally worth it. Yeah, I know.

[00:56:14] Carl Lanore: [00:56:14] I know.

[00:56:15] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:56:15] Birth is pretty wonderful.

[00:56:17] Carl Lanore: [00:56:17] I know. And that's why we need to. Love men and women. The human condition is a wonderful thing. We have to keep trying to change it to something else. I look a doctor, Dr. Wolf, I'm sorry. Uh, Jacqueline, thank you so much.

[00:56:32] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:56:32] Dr. Wolf is okay.

[00:56:33] Oh, okay.  let me add that. Um, this is a very complicated story. We have just skimmed the surface. Um, there's a lot more that goes into it than just electronic fetal monitoring. There's, you know, there's the malpractice crisis. There's the, there's . Um, there's the de-skilling of obstetricians. There's the finance finances that you alluded to.

[00:56:55] There's, there's, it's an incredibly complicated story that explains how we [00:57:00] got to where we are with sister inception.

[00:57:01] Carl Lanore: [00:57:01] It's all in the books. So Syrian section

[00:57:03] Jacqueline Wolf: [00:57:03] of the book,

[00:57:04] Carl Lanore: [00:57:04] it's all in there. Can history of risk, technology and consequences. And that's it for today. Tomorrow we have a, an episode of a renew life Oreck show.

[00:57:11] And then Friday we have dr Suzanne Turner coming on to talk about. Peptide protocols to reverse the collateral damage from stroke. She's doing it with patients. You need to know this. If you know anyone who's ever had a stroke and you know that they never regained their lives completely, there is hope with some of these new peptides, like submit a tide we've talked about before.

[00:57:36] There's some groundbreaking stuff giving people their lives back after stroke, so that's on Friday. Don't miss that one. Thank you very much, Jacqueline. Thanks for being here today and we'll see your body. Tomorrow with more super human radio. [00:58:00]