[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] welcome back to another episode of superhuman radio today is along the way to show we actually planned on doing the show a couple of weeks ago, but my original guest has some issues in his life and he just couldn't be here. Uh, but I have another guy who absolutely is the right person to talk about this today.

[00:00:15] And that's Victor black. He'll be joining us in just a minute, but of course, first I have to. Uh, get out of the way, uh, that this show is made possible through a generous sponsorship, uh, by legendary foods. And I'm very proud to represent legendary food because they do an amazing job at making snacking.

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[00:00:52] Victor Black: [00:00:52] are all worthy of

[00:00:54] Carl Lanore: [00:00:54] your purchasing dollars. If you go to the website, eat legendary.com.

[00:00:59] And you use the [00:01:00] code SHR, you'll save 10% off of everything and everything is worthy of your taste buds. So check them out, show them some love. They literally make this show possible. Um, so we're going to be talking about an interesting compound today with Victor black. Victor's a prolific writer, uh, about quite frankly, uh, performance enhancing drugs and also a world-class body builder.

[00:01:26] How you doing Victor? Welcome to the show.

[00:01:28] Victor Black: [00:01:28] I'm doing very well. Cal thank you. Passed me on.

[00:01:31] Carl Lanore: [00:01:31] So this is an interesting compound. It's relatively new on the scene, but it's a, it's absolutely intriguing for a variety of reasons that we'll talk about today, uh, within the community of, uh, performance, those who embrace performance enhancing drugs, and it's called Y K 11.

[00:01:48] Uh, do we know what pharmaceutical company has, has produced this? Uh, so far this research chemical as it is right now.

[00:01:58] Victor Black: [00:01:58] Yeah, firstly, I would agree with [00:02:00] you. It's absolutely fascinating chemical compounds. Uh, I think it has captured the imagination of a great many people in our community. Um, as far as the, uh, the commercial development of the product goes, uh, there were a number of, uh, let's call the mechanistic studies undertaken by a Japanese research company.

[00:02:19] Uh, Uh, we have some support from Japanese university, but it's the barrier. Best of my knowledge. Um, the, the product went no further than the synthesize of the compound for, for those mechanistic studies. And then. It was abandoned. So it never went into any animal models or any human model testing period, basically.

[00:02:41] Carl Lanore: [00:02:41] Well, there, there are some rodent model tests, but, but, uh, but with that being said, when a company abandoned a compound. That should speak volumes and I'll give you a, for instance, everybody loves MK six 77, except the people who have done the research on MK six [00:03:00] 77 and realize that it is to the Potomac Terry and growth hormone production.

[00:03:06] What androgen deprivation therapy is to testosterone and the gonads, uh, it exhausts the pituitary. It can only be used for short periods of time. And so you have to ask yourself, why would Merck go to all this expense? To come up with an orally active, uh, grelin agonist,

[00:03:23] Victor Black: [00:03:23] if you will,

[00:03:24] Carl Lanore: [00:03:24] that produces growth hormone and, and then abandon it because now we have a knot and it's because it doesn't work or when it does work, it, the outcomes aren't good.

[00:03:35] So that alone should tell us that Y K six, seven Y K 11 is probably something that we should be very cautious in thinking about. Would you agree with that broad statement?

[00:03:46] Victor Black: [00:03:46] As a general rule of thumb, I would recommend that most people in our tribe, if I could use that term would be very well served by using the dozens and dozens of compounds that we have available to us that [00:04:00] are approved for human use.

[00:04:01] So not only have they undergone some level of. The clinical trials in humans, they've actually passed out the other side through toxicity testing, et cetera. We have dozens of compounds that can serve that purpose as extremely well. For some reason we, uh, fascinated, I would even say obsessed about compounds that, you know, that didn't make it that far.

[00:04:21] And, and very often it's almost like the mythology that's attached to them rather than, you know, the realities of the compounds. We'll talk about as we go on. But yeah, in general, I would say. There are multiple metabolic pathways. We can mold you like today, 2020, there were many different, you know, drug candidates.

[00:04:40] He could see that. And there are many that, you know, not only have been evaluated in humans, they've been through, you know, phase one phase, two phase three clinical trials ended up feeding the approved human use for decades in some cases. And yet, as I said, but for some quirky reason, we like to obsess about these rights that, you know, Never really made it to market [00:05:00] and, and quite bluntly.

[00:05:01] There are some reasons for that, which we can talk about later on. But yes, normally that product

[00:05:07] Carl Lanore: [00:05:07] it is Y K 11 a Psalm, or is it an androgen because isn't it a form of allopregnanolone

[00:05:13] Victor Black: [00:05:13] it's actually both. And this is, this is what people are so confused on the subject, because if you could bear with me just one moment, I will explain the context here, but it does take just a moment.

[00:05:24] So. Back in 1935 or whenever they synthesize testosterone pretty quickly when they started, you know, looking at these sports therapeutic benefits, they realized that. You mean for the androgen sensitive communities, women, children, the elderly that they needed to basically make a compound that had the therapeutic benefits of testosterone, but it was less androgenic, any impact.

[00:05:47] In other words, he was tissue selective. So all of these steroids that most people have in common practice today are called steroid Psalms. They are effectively androgen receptor [00:06:00] modulators that are tissue selective. But basically they never managed to read these drugs, have all of their angiogenic components.

[00:06:09] There's always been remanence left behind, even with the most benign of these compounds like Anna, but there's enough androgen there for reasons. It's just say, look, we can probably do better. Yeah. So today we can get rid of that loss and vestige and just have the, and the bullet component. And so really when you look at these compounds, you have to look at them and say, look, you know, antibiotic, pregabalin, master, all of these drugs are Psalms alone.

[00:06:33] Right. But difference is those drugs, uh, basically steroidal sounds. And what people refer to you in colloquial terms, the Psalms are based on different chemical frameworks, not derived from the testosterone molecule. This compound ultimately has it going on court. That means it's an anabolic and androgenic steroid period, but it also, so exam, you know, say steroid or sound.

[00:06:59] Carl Lanore: [00:06:59] Yeah, because it's, it [00:07:00] is selective in the way that it activates the mosaic of the receptor, as opposed to wholescale activation, which testosterone does. It's interesting. You know, that, that, that is worth the price of admission. What you just said just there, because I've always suspected that. Things like DECA de Roblin.

[00:07:16] They are SARMs. They activate the androgen receptor slightly differently than testosterone does DHT. It is a selective androgen receptor modulator as well. And you put it so eloquently. These are all SARMs. They just, some either come from the skeletal system of testosterone and others, uh, originate completely from chemical combinations entirely.

[00:07:38] It's it? That's

[00:07:39] absolutely

[00:07:40] Victor Black: [00:07:40] right. And this is one of the right passions is trying to explain to people what seems like the never ending mythology and misunderstanding of these compounds even Trembowla and is, you know, the, the, the great. Yeah, that example that I was real at Tripler and it's a Psalms. It is in fact less [00:08:00] androgenic than testosterone, and it's less anabolic than testosterone as well.

[00:08:04] And I could demonstrate this through the evidence, but also just in a practical application when treble alone was in human clinical use, it was given to women for the indication of osteoporosis, right? Why the hell would you give a drug that is many times more antigenic than testosterone? As a treatment methodology for us to share prices, it just doesn't

[00:08:26] Carl Lanore: [00:08:26] make any sense.

[00:08:27] And

[00:08:27] Victor Black: [00:08:27] it all, it all stems back to this, you know, back in the 1960s, there were testings done on these things in rodent models that show some very, very strange outcomes. And we are almost obsessed about what we call the Hirshberg as say, you know, you know, it's this angiogenic and that anabolic ratio as a word attached to these compounds.

[00:08:48] And in reality, when you, when you leave, look at the way these drugs were evaluated, first I go a binding aside then like to a high HBR site, you know, the, the, the rat model and then ultimately. Those two [00:09:00] phases are really intended to get the drug into here. Clinical use to see what happens. Ultimately, that's the point.

[00:09:07] And so when you look at this discussion about anabolic and androgenic ratios, you have to understand that there's absolutely no evidence at all in the literature that supports this idea that this particular drive is more anabolic, that that particular drug. They all build about the milligram and human beings and all the straws we work drain.

[00:09:28] And the idea that there's a drug out there that produces. Five times the anabolic potential, then another driving human beings. It's just, it's just not what you see in real life,

[00:09:38] Carl Lanore: [00:09:38] right? No, I had it very eloquently put and I think we could leave that there. One of the things that seems fascinating to me about this compound, Y K 11, is that it increases the expression of fullest of, and for anybody who followed dr.

[00:09:51] Sasha and Lee, back in the day, when he discovered myostatin and I had the. The, the privilege of communicating with him. He, he was [00:10:00] resistant to talk about his discovery in the context of muscle building, without disease. He wanted to rid the world of muscle wasting diseases. But what I learned from him was if you go back and look at his original research, He had two rodent models that he used.

[00:10:17] One was the double myostatin Dole that we see in, in the animal world today. And in the case of the Piedmontese cow and the Belgian blues, and we even see it in whippets now and racing dogs. We see myostatin null animals that just produced two, three, and even four fold, more muscle than their non myostatin inhibited, uh, litter mates.

[00:10:40] But what he also did was he created a full of Stanton overexpress overexpressing wrote it. And where the myostatin, no rodent had four to five times more muscle than the wild rodent, the fullest Staten over-producing road and had four to five times more muscle than the [00:11:00] myostatin. No wrote it, which made me abandon.

[00:11:04] Uh, looking at myostatin inhibition, the numerous shows over the past 14 years about myostatin inhibition. And the best show I did was with a group out of the state university of New York system that showed that you have to suppress them a minimum of yeah. 94% even see changes in an already existing mature muscle.

[00:11:24] And if you don't keep it suppressed by 98%, these changes are minimal. And the second that you remove the suppression. You go right back to being where you were before you lose all of this muscle. But the real value I always felt was. Elevating folate status, which is possible. Even Vince Jarana. For some reason, he knew that fertilized eggs built more muscle than non fertile eggs, that chickens, that lay eggs in the presence of a rooster, they built more muscle.

[00:11:51] He used to tell guys, eat fertilized eggs. Well, we come to find out that fertilized egg yolks have a large amount of folio Staten in them. So FOLA Staten [00:12:00] has always been fascinating to me because you could raise full of Stanton easier than you could suppress myostatin. And the end result was much grander muscle creation.

[00:12:10] This compound appears to increase full of Stanton. That is fascinating to me.

[00:12:19] Victor Black: [00:12:19] It is best that I go, but the challenge is it's also an extremely complicated and convoluted conversation. So yeah. Most people that consider this subject seem to see Staten inhibition is through a single pathway. The pathway that you spoke about, you know, the, the escalation of post, and there are actually a half a dozen different pathways that could potentially lead to that outcome.

[00:12:44] And each one of them is both fascinating, but not without its own issues. I guess before we talk too deep there, I would just like to basically say this a lot of, and I will take up vote the comment you made about the degree, that, which you need to be suppressed my step, but, um, [00:13:00] Most people would not be familiar with the fact that at least a dozen compounds over the last 10 years have been evaluated for clinical application.

[00:13:07] For this purpose. The unmet need is tremendous. Nobody's going to argue this particularly in applications like soccer, Penia, and muscular dystrophy. And when you got with it, we're not talking about getting jacketed. We're talking about therapeutic benefits for people with. No clinical conditions that require treatment.

[00:13:25] So there is a large market for it, potentially the largest, one of all is simply the treatment of soccer Piney, because it affects us all at some point, however, When you look at the, the, the success, no one has brought a drug to market in all that time with all these rewards and offers, but actually God's what, what, what he's promised.

[00:13:44] So when you start looking at these compounds, by all means, I think we should look at them. I think those are very fascinating, but. I think it's, it's, it's very simplistic. Look, here's a drug that we have some technical papers on during the, describe the potential mechanism. But [00:14:00] we also can look at, I can show you a thousand examples of drugs that have exactly those papers to support the, you know, the mechanistic action.

[00:14:07] That never made it through, through, through clinical trials.

[00:14:11] Carl Lanore: [00:14:11] They're not effective a lot of times they're just, they don't work.

[00:14:15] Victor Black: [00:14:15] So the reason these companies spend 10, 15, $20 million getting them into, into phase one phase two phase three trials is because they look so promising. Right. But no, well is panned out there.

[00:14:27] There is no clinically effective. And what I mean by effective. I mean safe, efficient cost-effective drug that has been brought to market to meet that massive need of treating sarcopenia through that metabolic pathway. Right. And so you have to take a huge leap of faith and says, well, here's the truck that comes along.

[00:14:45] They have to do all of that. Right. But it's been abandoned along the way. There's a reason that was abandoned, but most likely, most logical, most rational reason it was abandoned. Is those researches figured out that's not going to work, not working.

[00:14:59] Carl Lanore: [00:14:59] Yeah, they will. Otherwise [00:15:00] they wouldn't do it. That we're talking about billions of dollars in potential.

[00:15:04] Yeah. They

[00:15:04] Victor Black: [00:15:04] would have sold it to one of the, even if they didn't have the money to bring it to market, someone would have stepped in and bought the rights to the drug. Yeah. You can make a tremendous argument about, you know, the big farm, or I agree with that. I don't have a problem with that, but it doesn't make any sense that there was a massive unmet need for a drug that, you know, he's a drug that does, everything was promised and it's safe and it's effective.

[00:15:28] And it's, you know, dah, dah, dah, And it's just being abandoned by the world of research

[00:15:34] Carl Lanore: [00:15:34] and it's pretty sad.

[00:15:36] Victor Black: [00:15:36] Yeah. It's unheard of somebody can eat. Yes.

[00:15:38] Carl Lanore: [00:15:38] Yeah. So, so I wanna, I want to talk a little bit about, um, about why, why is, why is why K 11 in this earlier slide that I had up? Well, we talked about the follow stat and producing effects of Y K 11.

[00:15:51] And then even in this one here, which talks about. Bone mineral density. Why K 11 seems to be compared to [00:16:00] DHT and all of these. Why would they do that?

[00:16:04] Victor Black: [00:16:04] I think that DHT is the compared to drug for all Psalms

[00:16:08] Carl Lanore: [00:16:08] cause it's so, it's so strong. It's so strong.

[00:16:11] Victor Black: [00:16:11] Well, well, not necessarily. So if you, if you look at, uh, so if I go back to that original statement where they were developing drugs that were designed to.

[00:16:20] But replicating the clinical benefits of testosterone without the negative side effects. At some point you have to compare it to testosterone the competitor. So every single Psalms that's it. Right? They've been evaluated every single steroidal Psalm, I guess I will call them doing, sorry. Anabolic steroids has at some point either been compared to DHT or to testosterone broker unite one or the other sometimes part that's.

[00:16:46] The industry standard. That's how it's done. So that's why the compare it to two guys.

[00:16:50] Carl Lanore: [00:16:50] But would I be accurate by saying that DHT is the most androgenic of all of the. Steroid hormones. [00:17:00] It's the one that's responsible.  a clitoris into a penis in the first trimester of the baby's life. It's still the one that's responsible for it.

[00:17:08] Right? Fluency sexual differentiation of the third trimester of, of a fetus's life. It's responsible for. The lack of it is responsible for Monarch and decrypt. Cryptorchidism testicles. Don't drop isn't DHT. The one that we blame for hair loss, hair growing, where we don't want it back. Knee acne DHC is when it comes to antigenicity DHT is King, is it not?

[00:17:34] Victor Black: [00:17:34] I would argue that's conditionally. True. So I'll give you an example. Dose is ultimately the major issue here. Does, how much are we talking about Jermaine? So if you consider the drug , for example,  not terribly dissimilar to, to DHT and its chemical structure,

[00:17:57] you should give to women terrain, [00:18:00] but, you know, interestingly, it also has the, has the. The Jeremy has record of being the drug tested at the highest dose in humans at 450 milligrams per day. Good. Now I would have thought you could, that would 450 milligrams of a drug. So closely related to  is that you would just ask me for a well to fucking problems join, but it's quite actually well tolerated you're in.

[00:18:25] And you know, this is the classic example. So people say it behaves like the IC and the, my argument is what, what the ice tea is derivative. You talking about you, do you meet DHT or do you mean like derivative with DHT? Because once you start to modify. Chemical molecules like testosterone or DHT, you start to create compounds that can behave in profoundly different ways than the parent molecule, just by some very simple chemical things.

[00:18:51] But ultimately to try not to your question, I would say traditionally true dependent on the ducks.

[00:18:57] Carl Lanore: [00:18:57] Yeah. And I, I [00:19:00] happen to like a master on it. Which was the DHT and I, I T it's a great, it's a great, it's a great, uh, molecule. To keep it clinical, but I know so like trend, you know, I mean, which is actually a progestin.

[00:19:15] A lot of people think that a trend is a, and this is another thing that I don't want to do a tangentially, uh, people like to within the bodybuilding community, love to bash extra dial. Well, extra dial is anabolic. If you don't think it's anabolic, ask, ask yourself, why, why farmers give cows? Fin Plex with beta estradiol in it, as opposed to just trend below by itself.

[00:19:41] And they'll put on. Five pounds of muscle a day more. If you add extra dial, if that's not anabolic, I don't know what it is. You know, people say, well, it's fluid, it's fluid. Well, I don't know about that. You know, sarcoplasmic fluid.

[00:19:52] Victor Black: [00:19:52] I could not agree with you more. In fact, one of my predictions is that in the coming years, we will start to see an escalation in the use of [00:20:00] estrogens as performance enhancing products.

[00:20:01] Like I'm talking about the administration of estrogens as a P D. And so. Let let, let me just back up to the point you made about trembling. This is one of my concerns about why K 11. So when you, when you look at treble Lloyd, most people would say, look, Jacqueline's a fabulous compound. It's hard to argue that it doesn't work like near my sibling.

[00:20:19] Well, right. But there's also a reasonable argument. There are some issues. During many of those issues are it's impact on cognitive Joanne . This is the blood brain barrier, but to be fair, all anabolic steroids too, but there's something unique about that drug that can mess with some individuals who are particularly sensitive in, in, in very profound ways.

[00:20:42] And it's not it's Andrew, the tutoring component gets the fact that it interacts with the progesterone receptor. It does that. In fact, many of the side effects are tremble over sweating. That's progesterone, the anxiety 

[00:20:56] Carl Lanore: [00:20:56] you just have to look to the better post community to understand what happens when progesterone [00:21:00] and estradiol become out of whack hot flashes, sleeplessness anxiety.

[00:21:06] That's that's trend that's trend.

[00:21:09] Victor Black: [00:21:09] So, so one of the problems is when you look at the, the synthetic progestins, as opposed to projesterone, but they are not identical. They are metabolized in slightly different ways and progestins do not carry many of the same benefits. That progesterone progesterone. So progesterone is a cognitive protective compound, for example, but during progestins synthetic versions of it, these compounds are actually not good for your brain.

[00:21:36] It all right. And this is one of the liquids just that we see from trembling. Guess what, why can I have Lebanese eating that same class of compounds? So really we would expect to see very, very, very similar consequences in terms of like, what are the negative ramifications of these compounds? You really have to look at, not necessarily it's, you know, it's on androgen receptor impact because [00:22:00] the white trembling works is yes.

[00:22:02] It binds with the antigen receptor, but it's magic, right? It's not through the antigen receptor. It's through non-classical genomic pathways. That's, that's the magic of the drug, including its impact with progesterone or other progesterone receptors. Right. So what kind of liberties of the same drug. But it is a drug that is also potentially capable of influencing the progesterone receptor.

[00:22:26] And because it is a synthetic progestin that doesn't bode well for things like cognitive function. In fact, you mentioned estrogen, one of those, the problems with synthetic progestins is they offset many of the benefits of, right. So you answered that. So there's all these little threads that you could pull up.

[00:22:45] The challenge is, is that most people. Either don't want to, or not in trouble, the restaurant unaware of these threads. And they look at something in far too simplistic, black and white terms. Here's the pipe with it says it might potentially be a myostatin here, but quite let's [00:23:00] let, let's use that product as a where, and I'm not suggesting for a moment, you shouldn't, you read these papers and be fascinated by these compounds.

[00:23:07] I encourage you. Let's dig in and let's talk about these things, but. Know the moment you stop pulling on these threads. There are great many questions that we simply don't have answers to. And so therefore you have to look at it site, but I always suggest to guys, when they're looking at competence, you need to ask yourself a series of very logical rational questions before you consider the type you track.

[00:23:28] The first of which is so what's on offer, you know, w what's the promise,

[00:23:33] Carl Lanore: [00:23:33] what am I going to get? Right.

[00:23:35] Victor Black: [00:23:35] What am I going to get? So the second one is by what mechanism of that action is that potentially true plausibly. True. And then the third question is, so what other compounds do we have available to us to die?

[00:23:46] That potentially offers us that bandwidth, but through the same mechanistic pathway that has already been through all these approvals processes. So we don't have the same degree of concern about we don't really know. And as I said at the beginning, When you looked at all of the drugs that are in [00:24:00] human clinical use, we, uh, we have an abundance of drugs to consider today.

[00:24:05] I don't know if people want to look a research chemicals, but you need to see them in the context of what, like, ah, and that is. Things that you might experiment a little with, but they're not necessarily drugs that you want to, you know, what I call use as bicycle PD strikes that you would live on for the next 10 years?

[00:24:21] Like they don't deserve

[00:24:22] Carl Lanore: [00:24:22] it. I have, I have not been attracted to SARMs. I use some of the earlier SARMs, uh, the first round that had come out. I can't remember the name of them, but it's like F for pretty much of my, um, Physical culture, career or life, you know, I've depended on testosterone for everything and, and, you know, um, I not a blast and Cruz got a guy.

[00:24:46] Um, although I, I do, I do now just cause I haven't been training as much with during COVID and I've, I've definitely lost muscle and, and a lot of conditioning, which I'm about to kick start my ass back in gear here very shortly. But. I [00:25:00] don't think there's anything you can't do with 600 milligrams of testosterone a week that you can do with some exotic, unknown, you know, chemical.

[00:25:09] I just don't see it. I don't understand it. I don't know. And, and what's wrong and what's wrong with androgen? I mean, uh, I get it for women, but for men, what's wrong with Andrew? Genicity your voice deepens a little bit, you know, I mean, I don't understand the big, what the big deal is. Quite frankly.

[00:25:26] Victor Black: [00:25:26] Well, I would argue this because people, if I have a reputation for being that guy, as it were, I suppose people see me as the God.

[00:25:36] Who's interested in longevity. I'm 53 years old. I currently compete in masters class competition. I've been doing this a long time and I'm not giving up. I got the other 20 years plus they had a plus ahead of me in this guy. But so I'm very, very interested in saying, look, What you might get away with the 12 weeks is a very different conversation with your boss for the next 12 years.

[00:26:00] [00:25:59] This is, these are two different conversations. So I'm very often asked by people who reach out to me who are principally interested in health first, so outcomes, but along with health, And I think it's fair to say that that tribe can be divided into different groups. There's the tit tribe with a very strictly within the boundaries of what's, you know, physiological rights, let's call it that.

[00:26:24] Yeah. And then there's a group of people out there, which is quite lovely, but just use too many drugs. You're like, let's just call them. They're abusing these compounds. I tend to, it's a scarily similar day to your, your show. I use the term supernatural man. This is the term that I like to use for myself.

[00:26:42] And what that means to me is basically we are modulating multiple metabolic pathways to different compounds, but basically just that incrementally lifting ourselves up to either at, or just outside of what's plausibly natural. And when you look at it, you guys will some testosterone and some growth [00:27:00] hormone and some insulin and some metabolic modulator and some Metformin.

[00:27:04] It sounds, I mean, you could very quickly assemble a list of a dozen drugs, which you could make very good arguments for their therapeutic benefits and all of them have fabulous track records. You're not really taking any risks in terms of them individually. I do agree the risk becomes the polypharmacy.

[00:27:25] Because none of the studies that we have look at using,

[00:27:29] Carl Lanore: [00:27:29] right, exactly.

[00:27:30] Victor Black: [00:27:30] This is the risk of that model. Clearly photo has a risk. My model's risky is polypharmacy, but none of the compounds that I use I use at doses, which I would consider to be abusive by themselves. So if you looked at just that property, the isolation is a very strong case.

[00:27:47] You could make to say, look, you could, you could use that drug. But my point being is. So if we're, if we're modulating the pathways you mentioned, you know, the activation of the estrogen receptors is a [00:28:00] hypertrophic Parkway. I completely agree. You need estrogen. There's an androgen pathway. There's a Heights Heights, GI Georgieff one pathway.

[00:28:07] There's a, that there's a pathway. There's a path where there's a pathway. And if you start to modular each of these, the one that's left, the one that's left clearly is my Staten inhibition. It's fascinating,

[00:28:20] Carl Lanore: [00:28:20] but the interesting thing is the thing, interesting thing is that training, the type of pharmacology that you're discussing does inhibit myostatin in and of itself.

[00:28:29] I mean, we know that, I know that, you know, the reason myostatin inhibition is such a difficult thing is because it is driven by evolution. Uh, when things are, when w when we have developed things over a million years, it's really hard to develop them. And, and the reason for that is that throughout, uh, throughout evolution muscle was seen as a very metabolically expensive.

[00:28:58] Tissue because [00:29:00] you had to eat them to support it. And so the, we evolved through selection pressure to have the ability to develop strength. I don't don't misunderstand develop strength. However, it's very hard to add muscle. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of protein as we know, and it takes lots of other things that we know the reason for that.

[00:29:25] Is because being a 300 pound, you know, a 2% bodybuilder and the days when we were Hunter gatherers, you, you became food. You, you were, you weren't looking for food. You, you were somebody's meal because you couldn't survive without four or 5,000 calories a day, which was an impossibility to achieve, considering that we were chewing tubers.

[00:29:47] You know, you have to remember, we came from an environment where we spent all of our waking hours looking for and chewing food. So, you know, it w now we're, we're trying to play with evolution and we're trying to say, [00:30:00] Hey, how do we unwind this? It's not easy, but I would also add to that, that if you add.

[00:30:06] It's real muscle. We like to call it mature muscle. I'm 62 now. Okay. So we like to call it mature muscle, but if you add real muscle, it also doesn't disappear very fast. When you add muscle by all of these tricks and tweaks and drugs and stuff, it goes away pretty quickly. Once you stop. But if you've taken a decade or two to add 30, 40 pounds of muscle and you take a year off because of something, you, you don't, you look in the mirror, you go, gee, and I know him losing muscle.

[00:30:32] I'm losing shape. I'm losing shape. But I still have all that muscle so hard, gained hard. Lost.

[00:30:40] Victor Black: [00:30:40] I can respond to that with two points. I'll try. I'll try not to talk you more. The interesting thing you mentioned about was strength versus muscle mass cross sectional area. If you wish to build muscle fuckers.

[00:30:51] One of the great challenges of my sat and inhibition is that a lot of these drugs increased muscle mass without strength guy. [00:31:00] Join. And this is one of the reasons I filed through clinical testing. And this is one of the reasons many of the Psalms have struggled because they see increases in Lee voting mass through Psalms, but that's not showing in, you know, in functional yeah.

[00:31:13] Outcomes for one of the better word join. And from my approvals point of view, doesn't give a rat's ass. They'll check you out. They're interested in the functional outcome. So when you look at these, you know, these high profile, examples of animals that have these, you know, these, these. Gene deficiencies.

[00:31:30] And that the result of these natural myostatin positions. Th th they're not proportionally as strong as they look you. Right? It's it's, it's, it's not, yeah. You know, a linear motor where we put on 20 pounds of tissue as a natural trainer, perhaps you get a proportional increase in strength. And that's also true when you use anabolic compounds, but myostatin is the one exception where they see, it seems that.

[00:31:54] There is not a relationship between cause, and this is one of the big underlying problems between getting these [00:32:00] drugs approved. Because if you cannot demonstrate the improvement in functional outcome, you will never get approval. One's going to approve a drug because you Jack, but anyway, as an athlete, you, cause you can go, why are you doing this?

[00:32:11] Like, so you look the part, but you can't perform. You're ready.

[00:32:15] Carl Lanore: [00:32:15] Well, in fact, if we look at, if we look at milestone all, uh, for instance, uh, racing dogs, we also know that soft tissue damage is much more prevalent and it's not because of the increase in strength in the muscle. It's because of the degradation of the development of soft tissue.

[00:32:33] So not only are they not stronger, but they're more, they're more prone to injury on top of it.

[00:32:38] Victor Black: [00:32:38] Correct. So susceptible to interest. Correct. And this is the great tread that, you know, you start pulling off and you start at one, get to go. It is a great unmet need. I don't think anyone is going to say that we are going to continue to see research companies looking into this and looking for the compound, but I honestly don't feel that that compound is on the table today.

[00:32:59] I feel the same [00:33:00] way about the nonsteroidal subs that are being developed. I truly believe had of my heart that the future of performance enhancing drugs is more likely to be a compound that is not derived from testosterone. But we don't have it tonight. It's something we'll see in the future. So in other words, it will take,

[00:33:19] Carl Lanore: [00:33:19] I was gonna say, I want to take a break and because actually Luciano for OTO, he actually asked the question, that's coming up next.

[00:33:27] Can we extrapolate any of the existing data of what we know about fo follow Staten of what we know about a DHT of what we know about pregnant alone and what we know about or what we can extrapolate from this particular. A compound, if it would make you more prone to problems with your heart cardiomyopathy and other pathology.

[00:33:47] So we're going to, we're going to actually, I put this up now so that the Luciano stays tuned and we'll get to jump into that. On the other side, Victor black masterclass.com is the place to go. If you want to work with Victor, [00:34:00] he's available. And he works with athletes, uh, in all continents. Uh, so give them a try.

[00:34:06] And obviously for us older guys, maybe he's the guy that we should be working with. Stay tuned. We'll be right back with war.

[00:34:11] Victor Black: [00:34:11] This is the superhuman channel where we use oxygen for the power of doing

[00:34:22] Carl Lanore: [00:34:22] welcome back. We're talking with Victor black. Who also has his own YouTube podcast that just launched, right? It's on YouTube, Victor.

[00:34:30] Victor Black: [00:34:30] Yeah, I've actually just in the process of starting up. So we have one episode of the cat.

[00:34:34] Carl Lanore: [00:34:34] Okay,

[00:34:35] Victor Black: [00:34:35] good, good, good, good. It's good. It's got to be a free weekly, but the cost, but yes, we were just kicking off.

[00:34:42] Carl Lanore: [00:34:42] raises a good question, which is one of the questions that I had loaded for us today. And that is hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Um, what do you knowing what we know about fall of Staton? What we know about androgens in general. Um, and, and let's, let's address this in two different ways, [00:35:00] training and non training, because we know that training alone changes the morphology of, of the heart dramatically, uh, and then training with androgens even more.

[00:35:12] So what do you think?

[00:35:15] Victor Black: [00:35:15] Okay, so I guess the challenge is there, they're there. There's pretty good evidence today, just a few years ago, there was some major concerns learns about this impact as a consequence of that clinical pathway. Basically my, my standard division was a number of papers that raise questions.

[00:35:33] I think it's probably fair to say that in the last couple of years collect since 2017, 2018, there's been some papers looking into this in detail, and it would appear that it's, it's not. Joe to be, you know, aye, aye, aye. Consequence that stops the development of these drugs. If that makes sense. However, is he would be like, Kevin, you're talking about your clinical dosages.

[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Yeah. Which,

[00:36:00] Carl Lanore: [00:36:00] which is what bodybuilders are going to use.

[00:36:04] Victor Black: [00:36:04] I mean, it's the classic case. So, you know, w w what effect do we see on cardiac tissue from two milligrams per kilogram testosterone? It's very manageable. But I don't think anyone is going to say that, you know, that when you start escalating that dose upwards, you know, by four fold, five fold, six fold, 10 fold that those same studies can be held up as any sort of evidence to say it's perfectly safe.

[00:36:27] During, you know, no better example than something like Clenbuterol Clenbuterol there is absolutely no evidence that Clenbuterol at the tops of doses that are used for pharmaceutical interventions, like ID marker guns. Did I have any effect on the cardiovascular system at all then? Very well tolerated.

[00:36:44] But it's also very well documented evidence that when you continue to escalate the dose that you do see consequence, this is why they use the drive at 2100 block of crabs to die as a medical treatment, because that's what they're trying to do, strengthen the heart deliberately and [00:37:00] certain in a particular cohort.

[00:37:01] So what is true at this dose is certainly not true at every ascending ghost range. And so this is the great challenge of looking at evidence to say no, just because. Three milligrams of ulcerate looks very well tolerated in this cohort. Doesn't mean that 50 milligrams is okay. Join. And so this would be my argument is if someone said to me, look, there's evidence out there decided that this looks like a valid and viable treatment methodology, like great at a certain dose.

[00:37:31] But you know, when we, we can't logically and appropriately expect this is going to be the one drive that our tribe uses that way. They do that with anything else. They do. They, they are using tenfold that dose. And I just don't think it's responsible to say because that looks okay, then this is going to be okay.

[00:37:50] I don't think that's responsible.

[00:37:53] Carl Lanore: [00:37:53] There's another factor that plays into the discussion. When we talk about the heart that a lot of people aren't aware of or, or [00:38:00] misunderstand, so androgens like testosterone or like DHT actually influenced the stroke. And the, uh, the ejection fraction of the heart. And that's great.

[00:38:13] That's good. That's like, okay. The pump is strong, but when you develop a stenosis in an artery and you have an ischemic event, the heart really needs to slow down to minimize damage and high levels of androgens. Make the heart go F this man keep pumping and we see a lot more image, uh, ischemia reprofusion events.

[00:38:45] Yeah. With people on high levels of androgens, simply because the pump is empowering down the PA the pump is going up F this, I got, I got all these androgen receptors activated. I'm just going to keep on going. And there's a lot more tissue damage. Have you, [00:39:00] have you read some of those studies as well?

[00:39:02] Victor Black: [00:39:02] I would agree with that.

[00:39:03] And it's one of the reasons that I recommend to anybody that's using anabolic can interject steroids, uh, you know, uh, administer an IRB. My favorite of which is telling the Sutton, regardless of whether you have high blood pressure or not, right. It's the best tool that we have for the mitigation of that outcome at this point in time join.

[00:39:23] So a lot of people are they're low to use blood pressure medications. They have some concern of it, but it's, it's probably the one. Compound that we have that has the potential to offset the cardiac cost toxicity that's associated with these compounds and our recommend, like, literally you should, you should use one by default, during there's fabulous evidence to basically support that, you know, the, the, the rationale, the logic behind it.

[00:39:49] And just consequentially. If you were to find yourself in a position where you, you know, I I've been treated by a medical practitioner, that thing, I guess what he's going to give you during. [00:40:00] That's that's the starting point for that discussion. That's the first line of treatment typically in that situation.

[00:40:05] So,

[00:40:05] Carl Lanore: [00:40:05] yeah, and I like, I like, I like  better than I do a wholescale ACE inhibition. Uh, frankly,

[00:40:12] Victor Black: [00:40:12] I'm not a big fan of ACE inhibitors that old quite blending and not the least of which reason is I use trembling and I happened to cough when I say that.

[00:40:20] Carl Lanore: [00:40:20] So trend cough,

[00:40:24] Victor Black: [00:40:24] the same mechanism, actually, the cause is trembled on cough.

[00:40:27] It's what causes I, our base it's the perfect store. You take it. She drives it. Basically. I work on the under same underlying mechanism of action. Cause that call for you to have a coffee fit like a bad one. Right. But just, just get, not using ice inhibitors and using . That's why most people are directed to API's that have that cough you.

[00:40:46] Right. Because I have things done enlisted that same consequence, at least to the same degree. So many individuals, you know, sensitive individuals. Yes. But. Yeah, I am not a fan of ACE inhibitors in our tribe. I think you should just go straight to API's and Kevin, the [00:41:00] fact that we have a, uh, you know, I, you know, a metabolic modulators, so it's not only an IOP, even as a pPir you're in as well in the form of telling the, and I think it's like the classic thing.

[00:41:11] People are messing around with drugs, like, you know, GW one, five, one, six, and sr nine zero three nine. And yet we have a human approved version. Like it goes back to that concept. What are you trying to achieve? Right. You know how fostered clinical testing is. So you have a drug that filed toxicity testing.

[00:41:29] Oh well, it's because of concerns over your cancer development. And yet over here, sitting on the shelf, you have a drug that does almost the same thing. That's really cubic clinical use for 30 years, that's know, easy to access, and it's an IRB doing to me. It's a really simple decision, which one will I use the approved for human use drive that does those two things, or the driver was abandoned by developers because it couldn't get past standardized toxicity testing.

[00:41:54] Carl Lanore: [00:41:54] Do you think it's even possible to get real? Why? K 11. I mean, you know, w people are [00:42:00] really looking for this compound and there's, you know, a sucker born every minute as they say. And there's lots of people out there who will sell you some other, sorry, maybe it's just some other, sorry. Maybe it's a of negligible consequence on your health, or maybe it's something that's contaminated.

[00:42:16] You think that there's even real? Why K 11 out there today?

[00:42:20] Victor Black: [00:42:20] I would argue. Yes, there is the chat. The challenge is though when I first, first started involving myself with performance enhancing drugs, the hot pot was finding someone that would talk to you about it and sell it to you. Right. But when she found that guy, what he pulled out, that bag, you could be fairly confident.

[00:42:39] He was what he said it was. Do you mean? Yes, there was counterfeit product going around in the nineties, but it wasn't as prolific. It is, as it is today joined. And I would argue that at least 50% of the drugs on the market today are not what they claim to be, regardless of what they are, whether this arms or whether they're steroids or where the growth hormone or whatever you're in.

[00:42:58] Uh, we have [00:43:00] a serious quality control problem in our community. Yeah. And you know, just the, just the fact that you can kind of go guys. So here's a research chemical you're in, it's the lowest hanging fruit. There is because quite widely living live TV, I come back and one of the biggest problems with research chemicals and Psalms, and that is the, so that is 99.9% of the information that you read about these products comes from people who sell these products.

[00:43:26] And that is hardly the gold standard of, you know, like a unbiased information driven. So you go looking for information or Psalms it's literally, let me tell you all the glorious things about this compound and here's my affiliate link where you can buy the product. And I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't support people that have affiliate models.

[00:43:43] It's a, it's a, it's a valid business model, but I'm sure you can understand is that, uh, people out there that don't really know what they're talking about at all, they just try to make money online. So they copy and paste someone else's website. You have to copy and paste it from someone else. You have [00:44:00] to copy paste from somewhere else.

[00:44:01] And really all they're doing is like trying to put affiliate links into the marketplace to pick up things. They're not studying these compounds. They're not, they don't have a quality control process in place. In other words, whatever they get shipped from the supplier, they tend to. You know, decanted into smaller volumes as it were and sell it off during the day.

[00:44:21] This is the dominant business model today. I do agree. There are some individuals in the marketplace that take great pride in what they do, right. But that is not the norm. That is the exception. So there are people out there that will know, get product in from a supplier and they will undergo their own quality control testing procedure.

[00:44:41] And before they put their name against that brand, but. I'm sure you will agree with me that that's, that's not nice. 89% of the people. That's a small segment of the community. So my caution to people is. Not only do you have to worry about like, you know, if it's real white Kayla, it's probably not joy. If you look at this, [00:45:00] there's a number of studies that have been done on products that have been seized by customs in Switzerland, in Germany, basically border seizures of drugs, and they extend the drugs off for testing.

[00:45:10] Now, what, what does it say on the label versus what's really in there during less than 50% of the product is legitimate today, less than 50%.

[00:45:20] Carl Lanore: [00:45:20] I think that the more exotic, uh, like just take injectable oils, I've always believed this, the more exotic, the more likely it's not real. And all it is is testosterone and in fate or sippy Nate.

[00:45:34] So it's not like they're selling you, you know, nothing, but, and I've seen this even with female competitors who thought they were buying, uh, you know, drugs, which have a very, very low antigenicity and boom,

[00:45:47] Victor Black: [00:45:47] it wasn't.

[00:45:48] Carl Lanore: [00:45:48] So I, I tend to, I tend to think you're safe. With tests, sip and test an Anthem DECA DOR Roblin probably is, is safe and, and trend is yellow.

[00:45:58] You know, it's like, [00:46:00] if you get a clear bottle of Trent, it's not trying to just throw it away now don't even bother it.

[00:46:04] Victor Black: [00:46:04] So I would, I would say. Probably more accurately is the more expensive a drug use. The more likely to say.

[00:46:12] Carl Lanore: [00:46:12] And that's what I really meant.

[00:46:13] Victor Black: [00:46:13] Yeah. People don't like testosterone. There's no money to be made, but they'll take a bottle of this and they'll put test Australia, sell it for twice, the price of testosterone.

[00:46:21] That's how they make their money. So, you know, you very, very rarely buy fake testosterone and that type, it just doesn't happen. You're right. But like, as soon as you start moving into the more expensive compounds, the compounds, that type. Most steps in the process to synthesize. And a lot of people don't understand.

[00:46:38] That's why they cost more because you start off with basically you're on the table.  molecule one derivation away from that is DHT another derivation away from that as the next drive and different. So, so the more reactions, the time that you need basically to convert a drug down the line, the more drug costs.

[00:46:57] So prima Boland is very expensive. Private, it's [00:47:00] very fight you're in out of hours, very expensive drive. When you find a lot of five Cannabix on the market. So what I would argue is, you know, what the, what is the, the price of the drug was more expensive. Drugs tend to be fight more and as a general rule of thumb.

[00:47:15] Yeah. Even when we're buying anabolic steroids, I speak very openly about these things because I'll leave a toilet. I can say a lot of things that other people can't get away with. And that is there's literally T is this. The first world pharmaceutical manufacturers like fire, you know, types of places.

[00:47:31] They send him to your manufacturers, which are really third world. Licensed pharmaceutical houses that are making for India and Asia and for Africa places like then there are first here, Ugo labs, the big labs that have hundreds of staff, and you have your millions of dollars invested in facilities in your ex Soviet bloc countries, et cetera like that.

[00:47:54] And then he kept going down it eventually you end up with this lab that I have no idea who that person is. [00:48:00] Like. It's literally if guy working from his kitchen table that he. You mean? I can't say it's true today, but just a few months ago, he would go on Alibaba and buy a kilogram of a product. If you can't sit on his kitchen table.

[00:48:11] Right? The, the, the quality control when this, this industry at this level at the white K 11 level, well, here's a poet it's really bad. And when you look at the first well manufacturers, they don't sell it. The second world, you know, the third, the third world, pharmaceutical manufacturers, they don't sell it.

[00:48:30] Most of the tier one labs. So I'm getting bolted compounds, right? So you end up locked down. Why called the fourth and fifth and sixth tier suppliers before you can even buy the stuff. So the, just that in itself says a great deal. Yes. I would argue you can buy these things. Obviously people doing research, aggregate the hands on these products.

[00:48:54] So that sort of suggests if you're a researcher and you can get it, then theoretically, if you're using, you can get it [00:49:00] theoretically.

[00:49:01] Carl Lanore: [00:49:01] Yeah. And, and a lot of these research labs are running their own mass spec on stuff before they, they put it into action in a study that they just got funded a hundred thousand dollars for it.

[00:49:10] They're not just going to take somebody. Yeah. They're there. I want to take our last commercial break and then I want to, uh, uh, discuss whether or not you think it's even safe. If you could even get real. Why K 11, we have a lot of people in the audience who say no. And, uh, it's, it's a worthy a cap on that.

[00:49:27] And then I want to talk about you. Uh, shine a light on, on you and what

[00:49:31] Victor Black: [00:49:31] you're up against. So let's do this.

[00:49:33] Carl Lanore: [00:49:33] Let's just, uh, run a commercial break here and we'll be right back he's dot com. That's not what I wanted.

[00:49:44] Victor Black: [00:49:44] This is the superhuman

[00:49:46] Carl Lanore: [00:49:46] channel

[00:49:46] Victor Black: [00:49:46] doing reps with the weight of the world.

[00:49:52] Carl Lanore: [00:49:52] Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. So the question is on the table. Is Y K 11, even safe. [00:50:00] Let's assume you can actually get the goods, the real stuff. What do you think, Victor?

[00:50:06] Victor Black: [00:50:06] Okay, so, so I will give my, my opinion about the compound. And I would say, I think there is a place for it. Yes. But, but first I would like to explain what that is and then most people who've got yet, but that's, that's, that's so left of fuel that it applies to perhaps a couple of percent of people.

[00:50:24] I would argue that. We have, as I said, I range of very well understood very well, well supported in evidence compounds that we can access quality products to prove the human use. And there are at least five, the metabolic pathways that we could modulate, you know, with a high degree of confidence and a high degree of let's just call it safer use.

[00:50:48] So I don't like the term safe, right. Safe for use. Yup. So by the time you get your anabolic steroids, what can I be getting cubic growth hormone. By the time you get your Metformin, by the time you get your [00:51:00] metabolic modulator, like telling the start, and by the time you get your insulin, if you want to use the insulin, by the time you get a catalyst on the table, by the time you get a buffer on the table and talking about different products, now that's a lot of trucks.

[00:51:10] Yeah. Is there one pathway that we haven't addressed? Yes, I agree. That's the one right now. So in other words, if you're doing all of those. And you're not realizing the outcomes you want.

[00:51:23] Carl Lanore: [00:51:23] Yeah. Is myostatin inhibition even gonna matter to you?

[00:51:26] Victor Black: [00:51:26] That's the, that's the problem. You need to go back to basics cause you're missing something.

[00:51:30] But I do agree. It's fascinating. It's hard. It's not, it's, it's disingenuous to say it's not of interest to people. So what I would say if you're that individual that has all of those things in place and understands how all these compounds work and you're using them optimally and you're getting great outcomes.

[00:51:47] And you'd get a quality product. And after that, I want to reach into what I call the research bag and pull out something interesting, like a lack of myostatin inhibitor, regardless of which one of these you're in. Okay. [00:52:00] Including what kind of by all means do that. But fortunately that is not the methodology that most people employ.

[00:52:06] They read something on some website that this is the Holy grail of bodybuilding supplements and they're into it. And their second. Yeah. The second performance in the heartsick drug cycle, thinking it's the it's, it's the answer. It's the Holy grail. It's, it's a thing that you're going to give them a hundred pounds of muscle.

[00:52:20] And that is just simply not demonstrate. Did if have any evidence already? No observation. So yes. If you're that guy, that guy that I just described, you've got your intelligence, you've got your insulin, you've got your growth hormone. You've got your metabolic modulator. You've got catalysts, you've got your boss, but you got all these things that, that, that, that lined up and they're all working fabulous.

[00:52:39] You should be growing like a fucking week basically. And if you're not, there's a problem. And if you're not, the answer is not my step. That's not the answer. Right. But I do concede aye, aye, aye. By these things. So, you know, am I going to put my hand in that bucket and look at things to clump your time? Of course, I don't think you should let people [00:53:00] write it for doing so, but I think a lot of people just completely missed the boat of what we're talking about here.

[00:53:05] And that is, I think if you can use these compounds. You should be looking at, look, I'm going to use these compounds for the next 10, 15, 20 years. What's the point of using for you? There's no point just stay natural, right? But if you cross the threshold, like I have a nigga live here for 20 years, you need to spend the overwhelming majority of your time using drugs that we know are safer to use.

[00:53:28] Right? No question

[00:53:29] Carl Lanore: [00:53:29] about it. And the reality is, you know, you know, who's going to use this compound.

[00:53:34] Victor Black: [00:53:34] Unfortunately, young, cute young,

[00:53:36] Carl Lanore: [00:53:36] young guy, these young guys who are hardly training at all, they're not eating near enough calories a day. And they just think that this is going to turn them into dr. Jackson.

[00:53:46] Victor Black: [00:53:46] And the reason for that is twofold. One is because of the oral administration pathway. That's right. That's extremely attractive people starting out. They, you know, the, the, the, the, the needle phobia. I understand that first time, my hand was shaking, like a leaf. [00:54:00] I do. I just, I started on oral steroids and I did, my first locker was antibody.

[00:54:04] And I am honestly a bit, the reason I chose about, cause I was nervous about injecting myself. So I'm not opposed to that discussion yet, but there comes a point in time where you have to basically, you know, if you're going to get into this game, you just have to embrace that part about our culture you're in.

[00:54:21] It's just, it's just reality. So it's people that are using the oral pathway. That's the first group. And it's the people that would do a cursory search on Google. Right. And that will be misled by people who market these products that you get steroids let affects. Yeah. And they're perfectly safe. Fraud.

[00:54:38] Join the people like myself that are prepared to dive three days down into the literature. I'm not fooled by that information, but unfortunately there is a. I grew up of individuals, young people just starting out, but that's the extent of the research. They do a cursory, Google search where you find you, and I'm not, I'm not going to mention that [00:55:00] people are espousing the virtue of these, of these compounds, because they are literally proposing something that has an all administration pathway, but perception of legality perception.

[00:55:09] Right. And, and, and it's, it's just, unfortunately, I, it was just service to act community. So I'm. Try to paint the picture here where I'm not the poster research chemicals, but unfortunately the people who might benefit the most from them are the least likely to use them. And the people who are the most, like

[00:55:30] Carl Lanore: [00:55:30] shouldn't be using them.

[00:55:32] Victor Black: [00:55:32] They shouldn't be using the bit at all. You're so stuck. It's this catch 22. If you said to me, look, I'm going to get someone surprised about I'm going to say whatever for Jordy luck. I'm not your mother. I'm not going to get in your way, but. You're right. You're not the typical user. Typical user has been misled by this fact that, you know, Psalms outside of, and this is, you know, this is a slump.

[00:55:51] No, it's an anabolic steroids to begin with. It's. Pulled the clots and steroids that potentially carry the moment. Problem. The protesting [00:56:00] basically ms. Steroids, that the class of trembling comes from, and then it has all the potential unknowns they're associated. And I don't want to say, I noticed I don't even just mean, is it safe?

[00:56:09] I mean, does it even fucking work? I'm going to suggest that the reason that you do hear positive anecdotal feedback about this compound is this and that is that it is an anabolic steroid. Right. Most people that use it is their first exposure to us steroids. Cause they've used all stirring and then they used LGD four zeros or three, and then they use white guy and I went, Holy crap.

[00:56:33] That fucking right. That's the first steroid that touched. So the, the surge in progress was. Moving from a Psalms to a steroidal sounds. Right. That's what, that's what the, the anecdotal feedback is relevant to doing. It's your first exposure to a steroid after you've been messing around with nonsteroidal sounds as opposed to the fact that it's a myostatin inhibitor.

[00:56:55] Carl Lanore: [00:56:55] Well, let let's, let's be, let's also point out, you know, history [00:57:00] looking back is always better than guessing what's ahead of us. And, you know, so, so I remember, um, When, uh, Oh God, there was, um, there was, uh, an oral released around maybe 2000 and I want to say seven or eight. And it was a w w what is the oral trend bologne that people used to take back in the old days that destroyed your liver, but it was unbelievably anabolic.

[00:57:30] You know what I'm talking about?

[00:57:32] Victor Black: [00:57:32] Yeah, that is literally all version of tripling. Absolutely. Yes.

[00:57:37] Carl Lanore: [00:57:37] A methyl Diane alone or?

[00:57:39] Victor Black: [00:57:39] Yeah. Uh, I can't remember.

[00:57:42] Carl Lanore: [00:57:42] It was metal Diane alone. It was metal Diana alone. Now metal, Diana Lynn was taken off the market. Uh, for medical use because it caused such bad liver damage, but it was so anabolic.

[00:57:55] It was like crazy anabolic. It was what we talked about. Methyl one [00:58:00] test being so anabolic, methyl, Dianne alone was way more anabolic than that, but it was removed because even the. Most willing to accept the risks. Uh, bodybuilders were like numb. That's where I draw the line. I'm not going to kill myself just for muscle.

[00:58:15] And then in around 2007, 2008, a company introduced methods and alone, which was one conversion, one hepatic conversion away from methyl, Dianne alone. And they said, look, they're going to sell it in half milligram tabs because one milligram of methyl, Dianne alone destroyed your liver. And of course, this was a period of time where I was a lot more experimental and I was younger and I thought, well, I'm going to, I took up to 10 milligrams a day.

[00:58:43] It did nothing. It did nothing. And when I had my, uh, my liver, uh, assay done after the cycle, my liver was fine. So either it was bunk. Or it just doesn't work. And I kind of feel like why can't 11 doesn't interest me at [00:59:00] all when I have so many things that I know work when I put them to use and I eat right.

[00:59:04] And I sleep. Right. You know, and I train hard. I know the results I'm going to get. I just don't see that. I don't see the value in experimenting. I really don't.

[00:59:14] Victor Black: [00:59:14] So if you would allow me, maybe I can offer a framework to you leave as readers or listen to sorry about. How I think they should go about evaluating compounds that they might consider for their use.

[00:59:27] Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing I think everybody should do is you need to create like these two imaginary Pauls of products and any, we call one pilot drugs, have bicycle use P the exact daily it's going to become from France during, and then we have another Apollo drives like called situational use, therefore contest preparation.

[00:59:46] Yeah. You know, breaking through a plateau alley, but just experimenting by always put some products in that pile. I do. I have no problem with that, but you should spend most of your time with the drugs that [01:00:00] hundreds of thousands of men have used successfully many, many, many decades to do  with some hard work and some good nutritional practice and some sleep hygiene and some stress management.

[01:00:12] You put these four things on the table and the magic happens. Yeah. And on the occasion by all means, put your hand into that second pile of broad situational use by all banks they problem. But when you look back at 10 years of use, you should have, I have a few months during total exposure to those compounds now.

[01:00:34] Maybe you will stumble across something. Can you go, Holy fuck. That's Christ. I certainly had drugs in it. One of my favorite drugs is super draw. I love super draw, but it is brutal on the pony. Right? So in other words, it belongs in that secondary category. It doesn't mean you would never use it, but you can't live on it.

[01:00:51] Right. And so this is the point I just got. It's just logically and rationally. He's a pilot drives. It's been used for 50 years. [01:01:00] Fundamentally. Hundreds of thousands of testimonials about the fact that I work including myself. Right. And if you use them in collaboration and the conjunction with good nutrition and good training practices and with sleep hygiene, it was just management.

[01:01:13] I, I promise you the outcome that you're looking for, it's there for on the offer. Right? And then, as I said, just occasionally, if, if you're six box riches, by all means, put your head in the bucket, but I can tell you off the 32 years of experience, right. It's very, very rare that you put your hand up and it's that bucket, the situational used bucket and pull out something that you go, wow, that's fabulous.

[01:01:38] And it has no consequence of use most drugs that you pull that gut man, that's, that's a right tool that you might use on occasion to break through a plateau, or that's a drive that you might use under situation. Use. It comes with a price to pay. Methylated compounds are an example. I suggest most people don't use Mathletics compounds by default.

[01:01:58] I certainly don't. [01:02:00] I don't use them. What that doesn't mean. I don't use them on occasion, certainly for contest preparation, but we're talking about metastatic compounds here.

[01:02:09] Carl Lanore: [01:02:09] Yeah, no, I I'm. I'm I'm, I'm exactly where you are with methylated compounds. In fact, I, I even avoid methylated corticosteroids. I auto I avoid corticosteroids at all costs.

[01:02:19] But I tell people when they take these metal prednisone and stuff like that, I say, you know, the stuff is horrible for your liver. Like you shouldn't take that. But anyway, look just,

[01:02:29] Victor Black: [01:02:29] just to be clear to your listeners, sorry. What can I live in? Is the meth lab compound.

[01:02:33] Carl Lanore: [01:02:33] Yeah, I know it says Bethel on it.

[01:02:36] Victor Black: [01:02:36] This is the point. So, so by definition that you blow into that basket because it's methylated

[01:02:41] Carl Lanore: [01:02:41] very, very hepatic. I've had a toxic, it's not good for you. Listen, Victor, I want to have you back on the show. First of all, I've got a lot of topics that I thought about while we were doing this interview.

[01:02:50] Number one, uh, tell, tell the audience a little bit about yourself. Uh, you're a pedigree, uh, and, uh, obviously they can go to Victor black [01:03:00] masterclass.com to reach out to you and work with you. You, you not only work with, um, bodybuilders per se, but more mature bodybuilders who are looking at HRT and or longevity as part of the equation of their, their competition.

[01:03:13] Victor Black: [01:03:13] I would say that's really my market. I, uh, I have a couple of. What I would call world class athletes. You know, so for example, there's a gentleman called pole row. I don't know whether, you know, Paul he's like a over 50 class competitor, the weld States level, uh, out of England, you know, but it feels very moderate in the use of his compounds.

[01:03:34] He's thought that I'd be like, get bigger. I tried kind of guy and most of my clients, even those that are competitive bodybuilders at a high level. Yeah, they placed longevity in that place first. So I'm very excited, written up, put my head up and say, look, if you're the guy that wants to drag his ass onto the Olympia stage at any costs.

[01:03:55] And it's fair to say that those individuals do exist. There was a study. Not that long ago [01:04:00] called the Goldman dilemma where they asked elite level athletes, you know, would you take this compound? If you use five years ago, what caused you to have a heart attack? You die? And they surprisingly large percentage of elite athletes said, yes, they would take that choice.

[01:04:13] So it's, it's, it's disingenuous to say, look, there are people out there it's, it's, it's definitely straight into that. There are people that are willing to take high risk for reward. Yeah. That's not my audience. That's not my niche. And I would suggest to you if that's what people want, I'm not your guy. My audience are really typically older men who wanted to be the best version of themselves, but they don't feel that, you know, I doctor prescribed H I T I T solution is, is, is reaching it out for them.

[01:04:40] And I tend to agree. So that's really what, where I work, people that I like to call supernatural men. There's no way in hell. You could talk about what you do doing as being T I T that's disingenious. It's not it's the use of your Hartford products is the use of PDs, but at such moderate levels that you're.

[01:04:59] On [01:05:00] occasions, just outside of physiological range, put on a number of metabolic pathways. So it's not just testosterone is, you know, it's estrogen, it's other things. And they're very often my clients end up with a. I relatively long list of compounds that they use, but they're small dosages, very, very small dosages.

[01:05:19] So often that at dosages that we would consider to be clinic not far outside of antiaging, but the amazing thing is when you put multiple products, polypharmacy as a Cola together, there is a tremendous synergistic effect, right? So it's like one plus one doesn't equal two. So, what I find is by use it by willing to use multiple compounds, you get a synergistic effect, but I will, I will say this for guys listening.

[01:05:48] If you want to take that pathway, it's absolutely more moving parts. It is. It's more to learn. It's more to understand and it's more expensive to do it that way than to buy a [01:06:00] shitload of testosterone. It just smashed on the Angela. It was hooked up with a 20 pound sledgehammer and. The great unknown for my audience.

[01:06:08] I try to be very, very transparent about this is we have fabulous data to support the use of these drives or the parts of dosages, like typically use myself, but we don't have evidence on polypharmacy use. In other words, what's the consequence of using all those things together. We've just don't know. So this is why I don't like the term safe.

[01:06:28] I think it's a lower risk model or cipher use model than blasting a cruiser. Right, right, right. That's that's my preferred pathway. But, uh, I, as I said, most of my clients, it's just older men who have been trying to usually for many years, this is not their first rodeo who right. By the lack of quality of information, they find online from both sources.

[01:06:51] It's just coffee pies, coffee pies. Then basically they stumbled across something. I said, or a video of my content leverage at some point. And they [01:07:00] tend to gravitate towards me because I'm in their age group and. We ended up, you know, being, being compatible to each other and ended up as both coaching and quiet and longterm relationships.

[01:07:11] That's really what I understand. People don't come to me for 12 weeks. They come to me for years and years and years at a time, basically

[01:07:18] Carl Lanore: [01:07:18] site is Victor black masterclass.com. Uh, his writing a very well thought out. He does a lot of research before he writes. Um, it's, uh, it's worthy of your investigation.

[01:07:31] We're going to have him back on the show. I already have other topics I want to talk to him about. Uh, so if you have any questions for him, email them to on This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. And who knows, maybe your question will be the topic of our next discussion, Victor. Thanks for being here. I know it's middle where you are.

[01:07:48] It's like midnight, right?

[01:07:50] Victor Black: [01:07:50] I was just going 1:59 AM. So we're on the side of the world. Amazingly good connection. I wasn't a big, very big fabulous connection. So

[01:07:58] Carl Lanore: [01:07:58] yeah, I know we got lucky [01:08:00] you're back on and thanks for being here today, but

[01:08:02] Victor Black: [01:08:02] thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity to call. I really do.

[01:08:05] Thank you. Absolutely.

[01:08:06] Carl Lanore: [01:08:06] And, uh, let's see, now, tomorrow

[01:08:07] Victor Black: [01:08:07] is

[01:08:09] Carl Lanore: [01:08:09] Thursday. I'm trying to think. We have, we have a really good chart. They were doing something about BFR blood flow restriction, uh, tomorrow. I forget Elisa handles all the scheduling, but we'll see you tomorrow. Thank you for being here today and please share the show.

[01:08:23] Thank

[01:08:23] Victor Black: [01:08:23] you. [01:09:00] .