[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] welcome back to another episode of super human radio. We have an important show for you today on two different topics. Uh, there's a lot of debate out there whether or not the keto diet works for bodybuilders or people who want to have great physiques. Obviously we're talking about building and maintaining muscle.

[00:00:19] And we're going to be joined by my guest today, Adam, sir. And just a moment to talk about a recent paper that his group published, uh, just on this specific topic later in the show we're going to be joined by Leslie Burke macular degeneration is a big problem in the U S probably globally to them. Uh, it's estimated that currently about 11 million people suffer from it.

[00:00:39] And, uh, about 22 million will suffer from it by the year 2050. And dr. Say it can't be cured. It's a degenerative disease that continues down a bad path that may no longer be true. I'm going to give you some insights of you or someone, you know, uh, have retinal damage due to macular degeneration. I [00:01:00] think we have.

[00:01:01] A good story to tell you today. But before we do any of that, we have to thank my title, sponsor, legendary foods, wearing their shirt today. I love it. Like why don't I have any legendary shirts eat? legendary.com is a website. SHR is the code save 10% off. If you're a low carb guy like me, you're going to love.

[00:01:20] Love, love, love legendary foods, especially their pop tart, which is actually called a tasty pastry. But it looks like a pop top pop trot tastes like a pop tart. Uh, but the difference is it has less than one gram of sugar, less than three to four impact carbs, nine grams of high quality, high leucine protein.

[00:01:39] So if you're somebody who cares about your macros, you'll love, love legendary foods and they're tasty pastry. And now I will bring my guest on Adam, sir. How you doing

[00:01:53] Adam Tzur: [00:01:53] Adam? I'm doing quite well. Let him know. I'm very happy to be on the show Kong.

[00:01:59] Carl Lanore: [00:01:59] I'm excited [00:02:00] to have you here actually. So you're joining us today from, uh, all the way from, uh, uh, from Norway, right?

[00:02:07] Adam Tzur: [00:02:07] Yeah, I am, uh, I'm the widget, you know, many people think that I am American because you know, my name does sound a bit American, but I'm actually actually from Norway, uh, but working with, uh, working with American researchers and so on.

[00:02:21] Carl Lanore: [00:02:21] And recently you worked with American researchers looking at the ever popular ketogenic diet, because there's always this debate going on.

[00:02:28] You know, keto is good for this. Keto is not good for that. And there's been. A lot of people who have said that keto really isn't any good. If you're a bodybuilder, um, there's lots of discussion. I'm sure we're going to have questions. Uh, if you want to ask questions, feel free to post your questions.

[00:02:47] Nothing is off topic here. And before we get into the discussion, we really do have to thank, uh, or at least, uh, uh, recognize, uh, your, your coauthor. Um, excuse me, Brandon Roberts, uh, who work with you on [00:03:00] this research?

[00:03:00] Adam Tzur: [00:03:00] Correct. Yes, Brandon Roberts is my we've been working together for, I believe it's three years now.

[00:03:08] And he's an excellent researcher from the university of Alabama, Birmingham.

[00:03:13] Carl Lanore: [00:03:13] Okay. And anybody who posts questions? We will answer every question. We will address every question, a comment, but you have to give us a chance to let the, the, uh, discussion unfold, so to speak. So let's first talk about. Uh, your research, why this, why this research, what, what discussions preceded this, that required you to look at this topic?

[00:03:36] Adam Tzur: [00:03:36] Sure. So, uh, so I have to give you some background first on the, on the site that I've been running. So I started a website in 2016 called scifi.net  dot net. And. It's the science of fitness. Right? And on this side we review literature. It's like an international collaboration of researchers from all over [00:04:00] world, where we look at topics like hypertrophy strings on the ketogenic diets and all their diets it's as well.

[00:04:07] So in 2017, we started like we started doing reviews on the ketogenic diet, for example, reviews on how it affects hunger. Or how it affects the performance and so thrilling athletic performance, uh, and in 2009 scene, um, and we were, uh, uh, Brown bread Schoenfeld. He, he asked us to write a paper for him in the strength and conditioning journal.

[00:04:32] About the ketogenic diets for bodybuilders, because he wanted to publish an issue. That's uh, that's, you know, that's about bodybuilding. That's unique to that. So we are bringing in the, the perspective of the ketogenic diet here and to evaluate how good is it for body building? What are the potential benefits and what are the potential downsides of the diets?

[00:04:53] So that's like the background for how the paper was written.

[00:04:57] Carl Lanore: [00:04:57] So interestingly enough, 35 [00:05:00] years ago, dr. MALDI Pasquale, which I know everybody has a lot of respect for that's in this category, who knows who he is, wrote a book called the anabolic diet and the anabolic diet was basically five days a week of, of strict keto.

[00:05:16] And then two days a week of introducing carbohydrates back into the diet, he called it the phase shift keto diet. Is what he called it back then, ketogenic diet. And a lot of athletes built a lot of muscle using that diet. So what today? We, we, people are strict keto, like carbohydrates are evil. I know carbs.

[00:05:41] I don't want to be kicked out of ketosis, which I think is an amusing, uh, idea. What, what are we, what are we missing? What, what did we learn today that dr. De Pasqual didn't understand? Yesterday.

[00:05:57] Adam Tzur: [00:05:57] So it seems like he did a cyclical [00:06:00] bite right? Where he had the periods of high carb and periods of low carb.

[00:06:04] And it didn't focus too much on the ketones if I'm understanding it correctly. Right.

[00:06:09] Carl Lanore: [00:06:09] So I guess you could say that. I mean, he, he knew that his athletes were producing ketones throughout the week. But it wasn't like, you know, today we have a test, our urine test or breath test or blood. Oh, I met the 2.2 millimoles.

[00:06:22] I don't think that they were doing that back then. Obviously.

[00:06:25] Adam Tzur: [00:06:25] Yeah. So it's very easy to get. It's very easy to get stuck on a specific number, for example, your blood ketone levels. And you can say, okay, I have to be at that level or else on failing the diets. But I think that's a, that's definitely not a good perspective because even though.

[00:06:43] Can you tell us this can have many benefits. It is not an issue if you go out and back into ketosis. Uh, so, uh, I'm not, I'm not too familiar with, uh, with this author. So, um, but, uh, he's definitely correct in that bodybuilders can gain mass and [00:07:00] can, uh, use the ketogenic diets. Uh, in their training regimen as a diet.

[00:07:06] So what we wanted to look at in the paper was, um, how effective is this? Like if you compare, for example, uh, low fat diets, that's like high carb, low fat compared to a ketogenic diet, which is high, fat and low carb. Who wants to see, uh, when we reviewed the literature, wanted to see. What does that say as a whole, I guess, which diet would be better for bodybuilders and also, uh, how would useful is the ketogenic diet?

[00:07:34] So we can, do you want me to summarize

[00:07:38] Carl Lanore: [00:07:38] what you're finding? Yeah. Okay. I want you to summarize, but explain to the audience, first of all, how this study was designed, this was kind of like a meta analysis, right?

[00:07:48] Adam Tzur: [00:07:48] Yeah, it was like a review. So we, we reviewed the literature, like the fitness we've been working on the ketogenic diet for three years now.

[00:07:56] So we have reviewed all a while. Most of the aspects of the [00:08:00] ketogenic diet. So this paper was, it was a distillation, right? Where you, we took all the. The results from the various reviews and we kind of summarized it for bodybuilders in this, in this review paper. So, um, yeah, it was a lot of, we had a, I believe we have like 200 citations or something allowance.

[00:08:19] Carl Lanore: [00:08:19] That's a pretty big group of papers too, to consolidate. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about what you found. What did you learn?

[00:08:28] Adam Tzur: [00:08:28] Sure. So we have many aspects here. Uh, we, we looked at, I can tell a bit about what we actually looked at here in the diet. So we looked at, uh, First, I would have taught the basics, things like macro nutrients.

[00:08:41] For example, people say that you need to eat low protein to be in ketosis. So we looked at that, we looked at, uh, we looked at hunger. How does the Cheeto affect hunger? And how does that affect bodybuilders performance strength in the gym? Hypertrophy how it affects muscle mass and also things like fat [00:09:00] loss, you know, how is it better for fat loss or is it similar to other diets?

[00:09:05] And what sort of the things like side effects? For example, when you start the diet, you, you will experience some side effects and we wanted to see how you can prevent those side effects, because those can be very detrimental to bodybuilders before a show. You can't have a lot of negative side effects when you're starting a new diet.

[00:09:24] Um, and we also evaluated, uh, cheat on supplements. For example, a kid will supplement stuff in their marketing set that you need to, they will burn your fats, or they will make you stronger or faster. So wanted to see if ketone supplements can be useful for bodybuilders.

[00:09:40] Carl Lanore: [00:09:40] Did you look only at ketone salts or do you look at ketone extras as well?

[00:09:44] Adam Tzur: [00:09:44] Ketone salts and ketone esters.

[00:09:46] Carl Lanore: [00:09:46] And did you look, did you look at the Veech Ester specifically?

[00:09:51] Adam Tzur: [00:09:51] No, we looked, we didn't, uh, we didn't, um, differentiate between the different esters or the different salts. Like we [00:10:00] reviewed them as a whole. Um, I believe there are about 16 papers now. However, most of them are for endurance athletes and not for, you know, there are no studies on for keto supplements on body builders specifically, but I think you raised an important question because different upstairs can have different effects on different people.

[00:10:19] So it's a very important question, indeed.

[00:10:21] Carl Lanore: [00:10:21] Okay. Okay. So now let's talk about what you learn. So let's, let's talk first about gaining muscle. Is it possible to gain, uh, appreciable muscle, the same type of muscle? If you're eating. High protein, high carb, low fat diet, which is a typical bodybuilding diet on a C a strict keto diet.

[00:10:45] Adam Tzur: [00:10:45] For sure you can gain Muslims of ketogenic diets so I can take you through, uh, the findings, what we found when we looked at the literature now. We don't have to start. We don't have a ton of studies on body builders, so that's a bit of a [00:11:00] challenge. But what we do have is studies on people that are similar to body builders.

[00:11:04] For example, Paoli has a study from, uh, Gymnast from 2012 and you know, they're very, they have to be very low body fat and they have to be strong as hell. And they have a lot of muscle mass, so they're very similar to bodybuilders. So we looked at, for example, the gymnasts and we compare, okay, how does this, how does this work for bodybuilders?

[00:11:25] It's a comparison. So the gymnast stay in general. We found that gymnasts and powerlifters, they can maintain muscle mass on the diets, but we see no strong. We see no strong evidence that it's, um, that is very sort of built. A lot of Muslims have diets now. There's a difference between like optimal building and, and, um, being able to build an optimal buildings.

[00:11:49] So to build optimally, you need like a color, you need like a caloric surplus in it, right? So you need to eat more. You need to eat more calories than what you usually do. [00:12:00] Uh, uh, what we found in several studies is that they told these people, they told powerlifters and, uh, other populations, you should eat more on the ketogenic diet, right?

[00:12:10] We want you to gain muscle mass. What happened is that the ketogenic diet is very good at reducing hunger, right? So you feel less hungry and you eat, eat less. Exactly. So that's, that's the challenge, right? Because on one hand it's a great tool for like, fabulous, but it's not so good. Do you need to be hungry?

[00:12:30] When do you want to bulk? Like in the off season bodybuilders, they need to bulk, they need to eat more. They need to pack on. And that was, um, um, that was, it needs to be a bit, bit of a challenge, which is why we recommended in the paper that's for, for off season bulking. Ketogenic diet is generally you should, you can experiment with it and try it out.

[00:12:53] But there is no evidence that it's like optimal for building a lot of muscle mass because of the hunger reducing effect. It will be [00:13:00] harder for you.

[00:13:01] Carl Lanore: [00:13:01] I have a solution for that. Anybody listening to the show right now, if you do want to build a mass on a keto diet and gastric emptying, which, which affects satiety.

[00:13:15] Is standing in your way from eating six or seven meals. Cause let's face it. If you're eating high fat, we're talking about the most calorically dense macronutrient in the world, but if you could only eat two or three times a day, you're not going to put on any muscle or did you, do you get some  and you do about 150 micrograms, 15 to 20 minutes before you want to eat.

[00:13:40] And you will be able to eat again in three hours because.  is a powerful, a gastric prokinetic. It actually speeds up digestive motility and it speeds up the efficiency of the body body to extract nutrients from your food. So it's like if there was a switch and you're [00:14:00] stomach and intestines ran on normal and you could switch it to high, it's a J Charpie six does.

[00:14:05] So if you use GHR pre six on the keto diet, I predict you'll be able to bulk because you'll still be able to eat five or six, very, very nutrient dense meals, and you'll digest all the food. And you'll probably poop a log at the end of the day or the next morning, but it'll work. It'll w it works. I guarantee you, it works, but go ahead.

[00:14:23] I'm sorry.

[00:14:25] Adam Tzur: [00:14:25] Sure. So I think that's, that's all, it's interesting. Maybe we should do a review on that as well to see how it affects, if there are maybe studies on, on gaining muscle mass while taking that supplement. Um, also I want to say that, so this research. Does not mean that you can't gain muscle mass on a ketogenic diet because it's it's averages, right?

[00:14:47] It looks at a group of people. It looks at the average. Now you will have people that individuals are not averages. Right? So for example, I'm a very good example of somebody who is a great body builder on the ketogenic diets is [00:15:00] Louis Villasenor. He's the Cheeto gains, sort of the head of keto gains along with Tyler contracts and Lewis shows us that it's quite possible.

[00:15:09] Uh, to be able to be a body builder on the ketogenic diet. So you have to differentiate between what's going to probably work on average and what's going to work for individuals

[00:15:19] Carl Lanore: [00:15:19] because, because, because there were people in those study groups that put on a lot of muscle, there were people in those study groups that put on or lost muscle and were saying, Oh, here is the, is the middle, but really we shouldn't pay attention to middle.

[00:15:32] We should've just said. How many people put on a lot of muscle and what was a lot of muscle, we should have just looked at that group in my opinion. But go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm not a researcher.

[00:15:42] Adam Tzur: [00:15:42] Sure. I think, yeah, that's a good point because if you, what you need to do is to look at the people who did gain a lot of Muslims.

[00:15:48] See, what's what characterizes those people. And in every study there's going to be responders and non-responders. So basically I respond. There is somebody who responds very well to whatever they're doing as a nonresponder is [00:16:00] somebody who responds very poorly to what's going on. So for example, it's possible that you are a responder to one Viet, but if you're a nonresponder to a different diet, So, uh, but that's like, uh that's um, that's just, that's a lot of scientific, like, yeah.

[00:16:16] I don't want to get into the weeds of the scientific non responders responders, but it's, but it's

[00:16:20] Carl Lanore: [00:16:20] an interesting, there's always, there's always outliers. There's always outlier.

[00:16:24] Adam Tzur: [00:16:24] Yes, yes. Yeah, for sure.

[00:16:26] Carl Lanore: [00:16:26] From a gaining muscle standpoint, if we agree that while we were looking at the average that there were people who gained muscle in all of these groups, And had we known what that muscle gain was and just focused on them for a moment.

[00:16:43] Um, we could say that gaining muscle on a ketogenic diet, it is possible with certain conditions. Now we don't know what those conditions are at this point in time, but we know that you can gain them. Now, if no one gained muscle, if there was a. You know, one group just maintained muscle and the rest of them [00:17:00] lost muscle.

[00:17:00] Then we say, no, there's no way to gain muscle, but because some people were able to gain muscle, then we need to know, we have to understand the conditions that led to their muscle gains on this diet.

[00:17:11] Adam Tzur: [00:17:11] Absolutely. And, um, so. It's very hard to say, because you know, it could be something maybe they trained harder or maybe they had some genetic predispositions.

[00:17:22] It's like it's I can't, um, it would be like speculative for me to try to figure out like what exactly the reasons were, but it's, it's possible. And, uh, but what we conclude is from the averages, it's that it's suboptimal perfect. The research today, there is no strong reason to believe that you will, um, Pack autonomous with the ketogenic diet, right?

[00:17:45] Carl Lanore: [00:17:45] Because if you do a traditional bodybuilding diet, which is high protein, moderate carbohydrates, and low fat, we know that everybody puts on muscle, they did that. Then it becomes an issue of how much muscle do they put on. So I agree with that. What about leanness? [00:18:00] What about leanness obviously? Um, bodybuilders during bulk season, want to put on as much.

[00:18:08] Fat free mass as possible. And they often end up having to spend 12, 16, 20 weeks leaning out, which then they give up a lot of muscle. Is there a, is there a to steal the term you just use? Does the ketogenic diet lean towards producing lean gains where you don't have to diet for 16 weeks to step on stage?

[00:18:31] Adam Tzur: [00:18:31] Right. So you're talking about like body recomposition where you can lose fat. And gain muscle at the same time. Now, this is a very interesting concept because a lot of the people for a long time, people said, this is not possible. You know, you can, you cannot do it at the same time. You need to be either bulking or, Oh, you need to be only cutting.

[00:18:50] But again, we have, I reviewed this literature on there is I believe at least 20 studies that show both untrained and trained lifters can, [00:19:00] um, lose fat and build muscle mass at the same time. So in terms of losing fat, the ketogenic diet is absolutely. It's great because for the first, the first point is that it reduces hunger, right?

[00:19:12] So you reduce hunger, you don't have to count calories. You just naturally eat less. That's perhaps like one of the strongest benefits of the ketogenic diets that we've seen. Um, so for, for, for both, for bodybuilders and for regular people, you don't have to count calories. You will naturally feel hungry.

[00:19:31] Sounds very good. I don't say in terms of plus it's when you eat less, you reduce calories fats. So it's, um, there's definitely, we definitely recommend that in terms of the in season phase for bodybuilders, when they go into the. Competition preparation. And definitely if you use the ketogenic diets, you can also use that to reduce, to become leaking, you know, to reduce fat mass.

[00:19:56] Carl Lanore: [00:19:56] So here's an interesting comment by Louis [00:20:00] and as we've established, he's a, he's a successful bodybuilder using the keto diet. And he says something that I'm a firm believer. In fact, it pisses me off when people calcify, the keto diet is only this way. My attitude is if you, you eat two packets of salt a day and nothing else, or two packets of sugar a day and nothing else, and you produce produce ketones, keto diet, any diet that leads to induction of ketones is a keto diet.

[00:20:28] But for some reason, We've ended up with this, uh, just like politics and religion and everything else. You know, these, these staunch groups, no, you've got to eat 80% fat and that's, that's a high fat diet. That's not a Keogh diet. Cause you could be in ketosis on a high protein diet, but he says here. Um, as you can see more.

[00:20:50] So the issue with KIDO when speaking about bodybuilding is that people understand, apply Quito very differently. Number one, people under eat protein. I [00:21:00] believe that because Quito. Number two people overly restrict carbs and can stay. You can stay ketogenic at 30 to 40, 80 grams carbs a day. And that's what dr.

[00:21:13] Deepa saw in his original book was 60 grams of carbs during the week, week or less. And then you can have carburetors feeds on the weekend, more people. Um, I'm sorry. Uh, and then he also says also had them around training, targeted ketogenic diets. I love. Uh, there's a sugar that I love that Josh field turned me on to, uh, it's called cyclic dextrin.

[00:21:39] You take it right before training and it burns up during your training. And you're back in ketosis an hour after you've trained, even though you had 60 grams of sugar. So I'm a big believer in that it's total amount of calories, protein that matters most. I agree. And he said, he goes on to say this, let's just get this in.

[00:22:00] [00:22:00] I do agree. Keto is not the one that will give you the best muscular gains, but it's a great compromise for lean bulking or lean gaining. It's also a great tool for recreational bodybuilders, basically people who are not going to step on stage, but just want to improve their physiques and look like they could step on stage.

[00:22:22] I agree with that. I agree with that wholeheartedly. What do you think.

[00:22:26] Adam Tzur: [00:22:26] I think he makes a great point about the protein, because again, in a, from what I can read online, a lot of people seem to be afraid of protein on the ketogenic diets, in that they worried that it will be prevents ketosis or something.

[00:22:40] We, again, when we look at the data we have. I believe 14 studies where people eat a high protein, high protein diets and the wrinkles. So it's like you can eat as much protein as you want. They won't prevent the ketosis, uh,

[00:22:55] Carl Lanore: [00:22:55] calories. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. So people are under the impression that [00:23:00] gluconeogenesis is something that just happens like that.

[00:23:03] Glucose gluconeogenesis is a very metabolically expensive process, and it's only used generally during famine and starvation. So this idea that, Oh, you had a big steak and now it's going to kick you out of ketosis. First of all, gluconeogenesis does not just turn on like that. It's metabolically expensive.

[00:23:24] So the body has to work harder to produce glucose from that steak. Than it normally would, but more importantly, the body's not going to produce blood sugar. That's going to rage to 200. It's going to produce just what it needs and nothing more than that. The brain is telling it. Okay, I'm happy now you can stop.

[00:23:41] So we have to get people to stop this nonsense. That gluconeogenesis is like, is going to kick them out of ketosis because they eating too much protein.

[00:23:54] Adam Tzur: [00:23:54] Definitely. I think you a very good point there. Like it's, it's one of those things that when you look at the [00:24:00] theory behind it, like, okay, gluconeogenesis will increase and therefore, you know, you're able to affect your insulin. It won't affect your ketone production, but if you actually look at the data, that's not the case at all.

[00:24:11] So I'm definitely with you on that. You don't have to worry at all about protein

[00:24:16] Carl Lanore: [00:24:16] let's address this. So, Joe, uh, Josue, February air says. Was the weight, was the protein worry more about whey protein rather than protein derived from whole foods like steak and chicken. You know, this one is something that I am willing to understand better as well.

[00:24:34] If you're using a whey isolate, we know that it hits the bloodstream very quickly, but first there must be a demand for glucose. In other words, the body's not going to turn leucine. And glycine these highly Glucogenix amino acids into sugar, just because the body has to say turn on gluconeogenesis. We're in trouble.

[00:24:58] So I think that's, I think that's [00:25:00] subjective to where your blood sugar is at the moment. What do you think

[00:25:04] Adam Tzur: [00:25:04] this is actually been tested in studies. There are multiple studies where they give participants protein. Like protein supplements, the whey protein shakes alongside their ketogenic diets. And they're still in consensus.

[00:25:16] So if somebody is claiming that the whey protein or any protein will kick you out of ketosis, they should, I would be very happy to see the studies because I've yet in our very best search we've yet to find any studies that say it prevents ketosis.

[00:25:32] Carl Lanore: [00:25:32] So clearly when it comes to building lean muscle. The ketogenic diet does have an advantage over the high carbohydrate diet, correct.

[00:25:43] Adam Tzur: [00:25:43] Building lean muscle. So building muscle mass with less fat gain compared to

[00:25:49] Carl Lanore: [00:25:49] a traditional bodybuilding diet,

[00:25:52] Adam Tzur: [00:25:52] uh, this, this hasn't been tested as far as I know, like there's no study that tests this specifically, but, [00:26:00] uh, it's, it's good for it's good for losing fat, but I can't, I can't say that it's better.

[00:26:05] For lean muscle gains. There's no studies on that. I believe

[00:26:09] Carl Lanore: [00:26:09] I'm actually, I'm experimenting with a more traditional bodybuilding diet right now. I've been doing ultra low carbohydrate diets and intimate and fasting for a decade. Now I think my body really wants to change. I could feel it. And so I just went to five meals and six meals a day, small meals.

[00:26:29] Uh, generally, um, 30 to 45 grams of protein, uh, generally under 20 grams of carbohydrates and some fats. And I gotta tell you in just a few days, I feel like my energy is up and I, and I'm getting hungry every two hours to it's. It's amazing how quickly the body shifts when food is available, all of a sudden.

[00:26:55] Adam Tzur: [00:26:55] So, um, you're probably talking about it's affected your hunger as [00:27:00] well. Right. Did you feel more hungry or less? I'm

[00:27:02] Carl Lanore: [00:27:02] hungry. I'm hungry. I wake up hungry now. Yeah.

[00:27:05] Adam Tzur: [00:27:05] Yeah, exactly. That's one of the adaptations. Right? So when you, um, it's also one of the reasons why you should, when you, um, choose like 11 calories, you should be careful about like jumping.

[00:27:19] Because if you go from like 1,500 calories to 3000, then like you said, you will be more hungry and you will, you will be like more likely to overeat. And so that's, that's something to think about like slowly moving up and down the caloric ladder. If you will,

[00:27:35] Carl Lanore: [00:27:35] we're going to take our first commercial break.

[00:27:38] When we come back, we're going to talk about strength and the keto diet. And I already see there's a post from one of our viewers about that. So we'll put that up as well. We're talking today with Adam, sir, his website is Sai hyphen fit, sci hyphen fit, fit.net. You can go there and learn more. Stay tuned.

[00:27:56] We'll be right back is the superhuman channel.

[00:28:04] [00:28:00] Welcome back. We're talking with Adam ser from siphon.net sci hyphen fit.net about a recent study. That his group published, looking at the ketogenic diet for both bodybuilders and physique athletes. So now let's talk a little bit about strength. What happens when you are on a ketogenic diet, as far as strength goes.

[00:28:31] And is there a difference between going Quito and having been keto for awhile?

[00:28:39] Adam Tzur: [00:28:39] That's that's a very good question. And so one of the first things that happen when you go on the ketogenic diets is that, uh, your, you eat fewer carbohydrates, of course, which would use your muscle glycogen, your muscle glycogen is your muscles stored carbohydrates that is used during training, you know, to field [00:29:00] your workouts.

[00:29:00] Right? So if you, so theoretically, if you have a low. And muscle glycogen then theoretically, your workouts should be like, it should be harder to work out. Now, what was very interesting here, um, in the, when we looked at the studies is that even if people, you know, and reduce the muscle glycogen, their, their strength does not seem to be affected.

[00:29:25] Now strength is in most studies is measured by the one repetition maximum ride. So if you're doing like very high intensity training, it shouldn't have any effect on that from what we can see.

[00:29:39] Carl Lanore: [00:29:39] So when you say high, so, so one rep maximum stays the same, but doesn't, it seem logical that perhaps the number of reps you can do with that weight may stall for a little while.

[00:29:49] Initially, although. I I'll ask you that question, then I'll tell you something that dr. De Pasqual said on my show years ago. Okay.

[00:30:00] [00:30:00] Do you think that it would stall your ability to, like, let's say if you could do 10 reps with, with, uh, X weight and then you go K to Quito, doesn't it make sense that while you still may be strong enough to handle that weight, you maybe can't do 10 reps anymore.

[00:30:15] Adam Tzur: [00:30:15] Yeah. So that's one of the, that's one of the things that you can, how does not been tested directly in the literature, in the scientific literature, if, for example, your high repetitions, if you're doing a 20 reps or 15 reps, if that would decrease on the ketogenic diet, uh, personally, uh I've I've I experienced that when I did a very low carbohydrate diet, like six years ago.

[00:30:38] I found that in the gym, my one repetition maximum was good, but my 15 rep max, you know, for other, for isolation exercises, it was more difficult now. This has not been tested in studies. So we can't say for sure, but theoretically speaking, your Moscow muscle glycogen is wouldn't be reduced, which could affect how much volume [00:31:00] you can do and how many repetitions you could do.

[00:31:02] But this hasn't been shown in studies yet.

[00:31:04] Carl Lanore: [00:31:04] So dr. De de Pasqual said on the show many, many years ago that on the ultra low carbohydrate type diet, whether it's high protein, high, fat, or moderate, both, but you're producing ketones. That muscle glycogen will be replenished in 24 hours because your body is still managing its blood sugar levels.

[00:31:26] And some of it is going to be used through the liver to create glycogen. And so it made me start to think if in fact it's not really reducing muscle glycogen, and the only way you know this for sure is that are there studies that show muscle biopsies while on key in ketosis that the glycogen is not being restored.

[00:31:47] Adam Tzur: [00:31:47] Yes. So in the first six weeks of the ketogenic diets, your muscle glycogen will the six studies on this and muscle glycogen is reduced by 40 to 60%, depending [00:32:00] on the study. Wow. That's very interesting. Right. But there's also another study by Volek from 2016 and his colleagues. Right. And that shows that they're mostly glycogen levels were normal.

[00:32:13] Four, I believe it was athletes that were endurance athletes for that I've been like in ketosis for many years and their muscle glycogen levels were normal. This indicates that with time, even though the muscle glycogen goes down the first six, eight, 12 weeks, it might go up again over time. So that's, uh, that's very interesting.

[00:32:34] There's not too much data on this yet. Like exactly when it shifts from doing, going down to back up again. But we, we, it suggests that this might happen.

[00:32:45] Carl Lanore: [00:32:45] So there's another aspect to strength and I don't mean one rep maximum, but the kind of strength where you're really applying yourself for long periods of time.

[00:32:55] And we know from research that fatigue starts in the brain and not [00:33:00] peripherally in the muscles. And so could it be that the initial phases of the ketogenic diet, uh, causing, uh, changes in neurochemicals? We know that serotonin. So, so if you, if you take a high protein meal before you work out, leucine will block the uptake of serotonin by the brain.

[00:33:20] And serotonin is what imparts fatigue. Could there be a component of that happening when you're on the keto diet? That's

[00:33:29] Adam Tzur: [00:33:29] that's a really good question. A good insight. We haven't looked specifically at, uh, the brain chemistry and, uh, data on that. But what we do know is that one of the side effects from the ketogenic diet during the first week is fatigue.

[00:33:45] And, uh, and in some studies weakness as well, but people report that they feel weaker and fatigue, for example, during workouts, but also otherwise in their daily lives. So, but this seems to go away with [00:34:00] time, uh, as you know, keto flu, you know, that's one of the symptoms of feudal fluid goes away after like four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks.

[00:34:07] It depends a bit on the person.

[00:34:10] Carl Lanore: [00:34:10] Yeah. And, and, and Louis Villa Sonora just posted something that kind of summarizes what we were just saying, that it seems like once you get adapted, the glycogen starts to restore itself. And that's another reason for manipulating, maybe a pre-workout, uh, nutrients, especially if you are a fan of some of these advanced carbohydrates.

[00:34:35] Uh, products like, uh, like a cyclic dextrin, which, um, if you take just the right amount and you have to experiment with a glucometer post-workout, you can actually dial in like a, a dose of maybe 40 grams. Let's say that gives you a massive charge of energy during your workout. And it's all burnt up shortly thereafter.

[00:34:58] He said, this is why I [00:35:00] personally shifted from doing carb loads only necessary for peak weeks and shows to targeted keto diet going in and out of ketosis will hinder the process. Interesting. Alright, interesting. And he's talking about the process of replenishing glycogen cause once, and it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, the body, this speaks to my comment that gluconeogenesis is a very metabolically expensive process.

[00:35:26] The body just doesn't turn it on and turn it off the body may wait weeks and go, okay, this full can't find carbohydrates. So we're going to have to start producing a little bit more, uh, glucose so that we can replenish and top off glycogen.

[00:35:41] Adam Tzur: [00:35:41] That's that's one of the things I think you have a great point there because of the body, you know, it's, it's an up to, to survive.

[00:35:46] It's not adapted to be a body builder, so it will do things for it to maximize survival. So you have to kind of work around that, right? You have to work around your body and trying to survive. The body will shut the muscle. That's what happens when [00:36:00] typically when people are going to weight loss diets, they lose a lot of muscle mass as well because the buyer, uh, muscle mass is metabolically expensive.

[00:36:07] It uses energy, right? So you want to get rid of it so that you can survive. That's why you have these, a lot of protein. You have to read the resistance training and get Garrett recovery. There's so many things you need to do to kind of. Fight your body's urge to just to get rid of the muscles. So, yeah.

[00:36:21] That's the challenge for bodybuilders specifically? Yeah.

[00:36:24] Carl Lanore: [00:36:24] Oh, goose Hahn says, would it be negative for the ketosis if you load carbs for a few days after some weeks of dieting. And I think that really depends on your goal. If your goal is to become adapted, it probably is a bad idea. If your goal is to go in and out of ketosis.

[00:36:41] Then you may not ever be able to do anything, but go in and out of ketosis because you're going to always need those carbs.

[00:36:49] Adam Tzur: [00:36:49] I think, um, Well, there's, it depends on your goals. Really. Like if your goals are to be in ketosis, then you should do what you want to be in ketosis, but you can still reach other goals [00:37:00] you can gain, like you can gain muscle mass, you can fix your hunger, you can reduce the toughness while being in ketosis or outside of ketosis.

[00:37:07] Or you can do something that's in the middle where you, um, Go sick. Legally, you reduce carbs for a period then. And then new year increased postcards for a period. It has to be like, ketosis is not the only measure of success, which I think is very important. Like ketosis can be important, but don't only focus on having like a certain number read on your ketone strip or whatever it

[00:37:29] Carl Lanore: [00:37:29] is.

[00:37:30] Yeah. And it's that, that that's actually silly. Everybody is chasing a. That, who, who has the highest millimoles and that, that really doesn't play into any of this sort of stuff. It's just like, um, okay. So lastly, what about conditioning? Uh, the ability to endure, this is kind of where, uh, uh, the keto diet excels, right.

[00:37:52] Once you're adapted, so to speak

[00:37:54] Adam Tzur: [00:37:54] once you're done. Right. So, uh, one of, one of the benefits or proposed benefits of the kitchen [00:38:00] excite is that when you. Um, your body shifts from using carbohydrates and it starts using fats and ketones instead to feel activities. Now, um, these are more like slow or kind of like insurance activities, right?

[00:38:14] Because your body relies more on fat oxidation during, like for example, a jog. You know, it doesn't need carbohydrates. That's more like during intense exercise, like in the gym. So what we looked at in this paper is specifically like the gym and lifters and how it affects like carbs. The cocoa important carbohydrates are now in terms of insurance, the evidence is somewhat mixed because there's actually been.

[00:38:38] Some studies suggest that Quito is better for insurance athletes, but some studies, for example, then like elite race walkers. I believe it was, they found that they could, they had, they spent longer, they're walking a certain around or a certain kind of competitive round. So they spent more time. So it's, they've been, this is a bit mixed.

[00:38:59] Exactly. [00:39:00] But, um, you can definitely hi endurance on the ketogenic diet as well.

[00:39:06] Carl Lanore: [00:39:06] But you have to be adapted first. Really? That's what it comes down to. And it takes a while to get into that state.

[00:39:14] We're going to take our last commercial break. We're talking today with Adam, sir. His website is Sai hyphen fit.net S C I hyphen fit.net. Go check it out. We'll be right back with more of superhuman radio later in the show. If you or someone, you know, has macular degeneration, we have an answer. Stay tuned.

[00:39:34] Hey, this is the superhuman channel where we use oxygen for the power of doing,

[00:39:48] uh, before we go into the wrap up questions, which I have, you know, typical wrap up questions I have on every interview. Aiden, Ray has a question. He says anything on reducing the tempo of lifting sessions to [00:40:00] govern heart rate. While on keto, I E Nick's circuits more time under tension, not move into glycolytic.

[00:40:10] What do you think about that?

[00:40:13] Adam Tzur: [00:40:13] So I don't think that's a, that's a very amazing question, but I don't think there's so much research on that. Like there's no real study. That's look at time on detention, for example, and Quito, even though I would really like to see that in terms of not moving into glycolytic territory.

[00:40:28] Well, that's bound to happen if you're doing lifting. Like if you're, if you're doing strength training, like your glycolytic pathways energy system is activated, like you're, you can't really get around that. You have to use, you're using glycogen and you're using carbohydrates when you're lifting. Now of course, if you're doing like one rep max, you know, then you're you, you're not using that energy system as

[00:40:53] Carl Lanore: [00:40:53] much.

[00:40:54] But,

[00:40:55] Adam Tzur: [00:40:55] uh, in, in general, that question is very complex and I don't believe there's much research on that.

[00:41:01] [00:41:00] Carl Lanore: [00:41:01] What was, what was most amazing? What, what surprised you the most? Uh, when the study was finally published and the numbers all edit up.

[00:41:11] Adam Tzur: [00:41:11] So I think there was many things, but when you thought was exceptional, interesting, uh, it was fun to see which kind of myths, uh, we're not actually, uh, factually correct.

[00:41:22] Like for example, the protein thing, right? You can eat as much protein as you want, but before, before we did this review, we couldn't see, we didn't know that we just, we assumed the opposite was true. We kind of expected to see that as we enter a lot of protein, You will not be able to be in ketosis and it will not be good for bodybuilders, but we actually, that was, you were very surprised by that.

[00:41:43] So that was a very interesting, and also, you know, the, the reduced hunger of Tito was very aware, a kind of surprising as well.

[00:41:51] Carl Lanore: [00:41:51] So, um, it's, it's fairly understood that being in a state of ketosis drives insulin down, correct. [00:42:00] Yes. Okay. But high saturated fat meals has the ability to drive insulin up, even in the absence of carbohydrates.

[00:42:10] At least that's what we've learned from a lot of the older studies that made saturated fats bad for us. So that's a kind of a interesting dichotomy. If, if you, if you're eating a high saturated fat meal, let's say a big. A way goo ribeye, and that should drive insulin up, but being in ketosis drives it down.

[00:42:39] And when insulin it goes up, can it kick you out of ketosis? Can rising insulin kick you out of ketosis?

[00:42:47] Adam Tzur: [00:42:47] I believe they've tested this in some studies where they have like incident that transfusions or they transfusions with the sugar into the bloodstream. Um, and so yes, there's like a, there's a relationship between [00:43:00] insulin and ketosis.

[00:43:02] However, I think what we need to look at is from, um, So have the question is kind of from a meal to meal basis. Right, right, right. But I think, I think it's key to look Catholic from like a whole day or like a whole, so yes, you will go in and out of ketosis maybe during the day. And actually there's a great study of this.

[00:43:19] I believe it's from 2016 that shows that during the day. Your ketones rise and fall, you know, you're when you're sleeping, your ketones are different, right after exercise during exercise, you know, your ketones are nowhere because you're using them. And, um, that doesn't mean that even though you're temporarily kind of went out of ketosis, that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

[00:43:38] It's just like a response to, like you say, the things you eat or the exercise you do, or if you're sleeping or money thing that can affect ketosis currently. But the most important question is how is your, um, Are you in ketosis during the day or during the week? I think that's more like a key, a key question.

[00:43:57] Carl Lanore: [00:43:57] And what about ketone supplements? Are they wise for [00:44:00] bodybuilders to use, to either offset the, uh, the entry to ketosis or to take as a pre-workout any, any opinion on that?

[00:44:12] Adam Tzur: [00:44:12] Mmm. Yeah, so we actually, we looked at that and the key ketones ketone supplements, they don't seem to improve insurance performance and they don't seem to improve strength.

[00:44:22] Well, there's not really studies on strength, but like there's no. We don't have any reason for bodybuilders in the paper. We do not recommend taking kid on supplements because why, why do that? When you can buy a creatine or you can buy a bed on the, or anything, caffeine, anything that's like that as much stronger evidence based ketones in terms of going into ketosis ketones to make you go into ketosis, but they actually prevent your body.

[00:44:50] It's called endogenous ketosis. They prevent your body from creating its own ketones. So you have to be very careful with, with ketone supplements because they temporarily [00:45:00] prevent you from making your own ketones.

[00:45:02] Carl Lanore: [00:45:02] Interesting comment, Louis, we need to get you on the show, by the way. I don't know why we haven't had you on the show already.

[00:45:08] Um, but you know, to summarize what he said, this, the idea of, you know, what kicks you out of ketosis, a high fat meal. And he said, you know, it's more about how long it kicks you out of ketosis. Um, which I think is interesting, you know, it's like, uh, a high carb meal could kick you out of ketosis for days.

[00:45:25] He said, uh, but you know, maybe some saturated that'll kick you out for raising insulin from saturated fat. Um, We'll actually, uh, kick you out for seconds or minutes. And so, you know, and this is what happens with all this diet stuff to steal a comment that my good friend Joel green likes to use is that we too many of us talking baby talk.

[00:45:48] This is good. That's bad. It's nutrition is much more sophisticated than that. There's nuances. Like this, how long does it kick you out of ketosis? Maybe being kicked out of [00:46:00] ketosis for minutes is worth it for the meal that you're having. And then he also says that, and I believe this exogenous ketones actually bluntly policy.

[00:46:07] Sure. Because your body doesn't have to, uh, convert fats into, uh, uh, uh, uh, ketones. If it's getting them from someplace else, this is something I've said for a long time, but, and, you know, I would love people in the, in the keto space to start distinguishing between B, between ketosis and keto license. I a, a ketone supplement, doesn't put you into ketosis.

[00:46:34] It puts you into keto license. You're using ketones, being in a state of ketosis means your body is making the ketones that your body is then using. So until we start to become more specific about the terminology that we use,  the supplement company is going to be able to say whatever they want, you know, keto license and ketosis, a very, very different phenomenon.

[00:46:57] They work hand in hand, but if you're taking [00:47:00] a supplement, you're in keto license, you're using ketones. Your body didn't produce. For sure.

[00:47:06] Adam Tzur: [00:47:06] And, uh, you know, w researchers, uh, they used the term and dodginess ketosis and exogenous ketosis. Indogenous ketosis is like within an exogenous ketosis has kind of from, without, you know, from the outside.

[00:47:18] So I think you're making a great point about that for sure.

[00:47:22] Carl Lanore: [00:47:22] Summary. And just a couple of minutes, what do you hope, uh, clinicians and other people within the Quito space take away from this research paper.

[00:47:31] Adam Tzur: [00:47:31] I hope that this paper is like the beginning of research into the bodybuilders that go on the ketogenic diet.

[00:47:37] Because right now there's a severe lack of a ketogenic diet for bodybuilders studies. We need to see, for example, like people ask on this show, like, how does it affect time under tension? Or you asked about the repetitions, like, how does it affect your 15 repetition maximum, not just a one repetition maximum.

[00:47:54] How does it affect your, um, yeah. Your volume over the week? How much volume can you do in the gym? [00:48:00] Like, there are so many questions that we need answers for, and I really hope that conditions are while the research researchers can look into that. And also for coaches, you can definitely experiment with your athletes or your lifter and ask them to use the ketogenic diet, but also you have to be careful.

[00:48:17] The ketogenic diet side effects can be harmful. So if you jump on the ketogenic diet, maybe like three weeks before a show, you might experience a lot of negative side effects and it's, they mess up your show. So you need to be careful, you need to adopt, and you also need to take like fiber supplements and electrolyte supplements because the ketogenic diet, it makes you a more dehydrated and you urinate out.

[00:48:39] Lecture lights like salt, for example. So you have to drink more and get more fiber and get more electrolytes. So it will prevent the negative side.

[00:48:47] Carl Lanore: [00:48:47] Yeah, exactly. I listened. Thank you so much for taking time to come on the show. It's a fascinating paper and I hope you do spark, uh, more research in this area because I'm more interested in bodybuilding and Quito.

[00:48:58] A ketogenic diet. [00:49:00] Cause I'm not a jogger. I'm not a runner. I'm not a biker. Well, I am a rock. I ride a motorcycle that kind of biker. But, uh, yeah, I want to know more about what it does for me as, as, as a weightlifter. I really do. Thank you so much for being here today, Adam.

[00:49:14] Adam Tzur: [00:49:14] Thanks Carl. It was a real pleasure to be on this show with you.

[00:49:17] Carl Lanore: [00:49:17] Thank you. And we will get a Louis Villa on the show. He has a lot to say, and I think it would be valuable to just interview him instead of him being a commenting on the side. There's no way for me to put all of his comments up there. Um, we're going to take a quick commercial break when we'll come back.

[00:49:33] We're going to talk about. A problem that is becoming bigger and bigger in the United States and that's macular degeneration. There's a host of reasons for it. Looking at your computer screen right now is one of those. And, uh, previously doctor said there was nothing you could do about it, except just let it get worse and suffer until you eventually went blind.

[00:49:55] That's no longer true. Okay. From the same people that brought us [00:50:00] an answer. Uh, two cataracts, which so many people in my audience have benefited from and their dogs. They now have a solution for macular degeneration. So stay tuned. We'll be right back with more superhuman radio. Don't hate us because we feel good.

[00:50:22] Welcome back. The distinction of spending time with. My longest running sponsor on this show. Leslie Burke, how are you? Leslie?

[00:50:34] Leslie Burke: [00:50:34] Doing fine, Carl, how are you surviving? The COVID

[00:50:40] Carl Lanore: [00:50:40] nothing has changed for me, except I had to stop going to the gym for awhile. And really I came to work every single day. I wear a bandana.

[00:50:50] So I kind of looked like, like a bank robber back in the old days, but really nothing has changed for me at all. I mean, it's frustrating. I'll be able to go to a movie once in a while, but I'm one of those [00:51:00] people. Who doesn't focus on the things I don't have or the things I I want to do. And I just focus on the things I do have and the things that I can do.

[00:51:10] And I've always been that way my whole life. So I guess I don't, I'm not a, I it's easy to get me wrong. It's not easy to get me rattled about stuff it's been good actually has been good. And it should just show is five. We built a great audience over this, over the COVID period, because. People are home

[00:51:28] Leslie Burke: [00:51:28] well, and for those of us that work from home, you know, I think surviving it is a little easier.

[00:51:33] It's, it's those that have to go out into the world, you know, on a daily basis. I think that struggle a little more and find it a little more. Um, they come up against it, you know?

[00:51:44] Carl Lanore: [00:51:44] So, so you, you have you, so I have, I've written a roam and I want them to, uh, assign you along with Saint Teresa as the patron Saint of the eyes, because you have done more for the health of people's [00:52:00] eyes than any other person on this planet.

[00:52:02] And that's the truth. I'm not, I'm being honest. Well,

[00:52:05] Leslie Burke: [00:52:05] well, I would say I've contributed to getting the information out there. The real bees are the unsung heroes out there who. Really have pursued this knowledge and, um, with very little acclaim, you know, uh,

[00:52:20] Carl Lanore: [00:52:20] right. But no one, no one would have ever known about dr.

[00:52:23] and the work that he did and the results. I mean, I have so many people who regularly say to me and I use Kancey eyedrops. I, the guy that I used to use for the can't see eyedrop ad that we were running. Did you hear the last ad? We ran. We have a guy who's cataract went away in his eye. Doctor can't even find the cataract anymore because he can't see, I actually used him for the ad that we were running for the past six or seven months.

[00:52:47] Leslie Burke: [00:52:47] Well, we are, our Facebook page is hilarious because, you know, you monitor your Facebook page and we have people coming in there and saying, does this stuff really work? And we just get ready to answer. And about five of our customers come on there and.

[00:53:01] [00:53:00] What it did for them. And I kind of has a, we have a runaway support team, uh, on our Facebook page. We, we can't get to the customers quick enough for some reason.

[00:53:12] Carl Lanore: [00:53:12] There's another problem of foot here. And it's global. I say the United States because that's where we're based, but it's global and it's called macular degeneration.

[00:53:20] This is a damage to the retina and there's a lot of reasons it happens, right.

[00:53:26] Leslie Burke: [00:53:26] Oh, my gosh. Um, and it's such a terrifying thing, you know, I, you think of cataract and everybody feels like, well, if I get one, I can always go get the surgery. You know, macular degeneration is a whole different thing and it is such a terrifying, kind of a permanent unfixable diagnosis, even from the doctor's point of view.

[00:53:45] I mean, most eye doctors are very frustrated with the treatment options they have available. They know how limited they are. It is a common discussion at conferences, even the treatments, if they're using the injections, um, just are, [00:54:00] are, are very poor results. Um, they can slow things down a little bit.

[00:54:04] Sometimes they exacerbate the condition is it's not a happy. Happy place to be. If you're an eye doctor trying to deal with macular degeneration, um, maybe just back up a little bit. I, speaking of one of the unsung heroes is dr. Shang then ne from China. He was the head of the department of fundus diseases in sun yet Sen university.

[00:54:24] I have to look at it cause I don't speak. Chinese very well. Um, but back in the late nineties, he was noticing and, and what he came across was that people with macular degeneration, um, and he was looking at all the distinctions and he found that for whatever reason, they seem to have a lower than far lower than normal production of melatonin.

[00:54:48] Um, they're there, Neil Glenn, we're just not producing melatonin at levels that it should be for their ages. And he began exploring this and really found it to be [00:55:00] dominant factor, uh, in all the pieces. Well, he was testing and, um, of course he was researching, he was the head of the department of fundus disease there at the time, and he thought they should do a study and he wanted to pursue this study.

[00:55:12] He went and found. Um, uh, the world leading endocrinologist, uh, dr. Walter peer Paoli, to help him facilitate the study and help him more importantly, formulate, uh, the optimal melatonin formula that they could think of. Uh, she really generates the results. And what they learned was that the retina actually synthesizes melatonin.

[00:55:35] It doesn't produce it. The eye does not have it inherently in the eye. But the healing and repair mechanism, the, I do not function without it. So if your pineal is not producing melatonin, Your likelihood of getting some type of retinal condition, whether it's I write us UBI, um, uh, macular degeneration, uh, really skyrockets.

[00:56:00] [00:55:59] And so, uh, together, they, you know, produced a study, uh, that just, you know, Blew everybody's minds. I mean, it was such a simple question. What if we could reintroduce melatonin levels, would there possibly be a healing response and the fundus of these eyes have these terribly damaged eyes?

[00:56:22] Carl Lanore: [00:56:22] Correct. Okay.

[00:56:23] Could it be reversed? And obviously the first objective of this type of research is to, is to halt the progression, right? That that's really an in fact, in 99% of the cases, if you just do that, You've solved the big problem, because, so the fundus is the back of the eye, that whole rear cup, where the retina is the phobias and Travis, which is where the optic nerve comes in and where the blood comes into the eye actually, which is the macular region of the eye.

[00:56:52] Right. Okay, so

[00:56:55] Leslie Burke: [00:56:55] on the inside? Yes,

[00:56:57] Carl Lanore: [00:56:57] yes. Yeah, the globe, but it's the rear [00:57:00] part. It's like the, it's like the, the, uh, the movies screen of the eye. That's the fun. Right. And so this is an area where a lot of vision diminishes too, and I want to point this out. You may not have been diagnosed with Frank macular degeneration, and you may be told that your crystalline lens is fine.

[00:57:22] It's clear, but you notice that your vision is getting worse. So there's this, there's not a lot of moving parts in the eye. Okay. The aperture, which is the, the Iris. Um, which are the pupil. Rather, the Iris is around it lets light in the light is refracted by the crystalline lens and then focused on the retina.

[00:57:44] And then the retina is the screen. So if you have nothing wrong with your cornea and you have nothing going bad with your crystalline lens, but your vision is diminishing 99% of the time. It's your retina. Something's going on with your retina, lots of things can happen to retina. So you have [00:58:00] rods and cones that are filled with dye Rodarte.

[00:58:02] Rhodopsin that actually are kind of like the old Kodak Kodachrome paper that changes color depending on the light that hits it. And that's how you perceive color. And that's taken in by the optic nerve and it's sent to the brain and it goes that's red. Well, when. Colors start to get cloudier. And the quality of vision starts to fade.

[00:58:24] It's your retina. So you may not have listening to this interview. Do I want those of you who are listening that know people who have macular degeneration or known retinal issues? Uh, and it may be you or a friend, but I also want people to go, you know, it's really weird. I noticed that my vision is starting to suck.

[00:58:42] I go to the doctor, the doctor says, you know, my eye is fine. My cornea is fine. There's no, I have no cataracts. It's your retina. So listen to this from that standpoint, because stopping the retina from deteriorating could save your vision until the day you die. Okay. That was that's my

[00:58:58] Leslie Burke: [00:58:58] backed by eye pressure [00:59:00] problems as well.

[00:59:01] Um, another, another issue that often, you know, And it's not until it gets to be really serious that you hear about it. Um, and so, and there's many studies, interestingly, that show that melatonin can prevent eye pressure problems as well. I mean, melatonin we've been hearing about it forever, right? We've been hearing about.

[00:59:20] A what an anti IAG molecule it is. They don't even know if it's a hormone. They don't really know. It's really a mystery. What melatonin is, it's kind of doctor of all the other hormones. Um, it's sort of the director, if you will, of the concert, but if you're deficient in it, everything else can fall apart.

[00:59:37] It's one of those really critical things. The problem is that like the sublingual melatonins that you take, they give you a real quick spike and then a plummet. Um, those are great for medicinal purposes. Like before surgery, they actually found that they can relax someone and remove the anxiety prior to surgery.

[00:59:53] There are places for things like that. Then the time released ones are a little too little too long, [01:00:00] you know? Um, and what they found is that the only time the retina heals and repairs itself is during that deep REM state of sleep at night, that's the only time

[01:00:09] Carl Lanore: [01:00:09] it's closer to the morning than it does when you went to bed.

[01:00:13] Exactly. Right.

[01:00:15] Leslie Burke: [01:00:15] So you have to restore the pineal is the point of, of that their formulation, which is why they actually have a special melatonin. They bonded it with selenium and zinc of all

[01:00:26] Carl Lanore: [01:00:26] things,

[01:00:27] Leslie Burke: [01:00:27] but they also found that people who were deficient in zinc didn't produce melatonin.

[01:00:32] Carl Lanore: [01:00:32] Interesting.

[01:00:33] Leslie Burke: [01:00:33] Yeah, the next slide right together.

[01:00:35] So, and then the, the selenium of course, uh, really supports, uh, the protection of glutathione levels in the eyes and in the body. Right. So, you know, again, the eyes are the window to the soul. When you start having vision problems, there's an underlying. Imbalance that's likely occurring and you really want to pay attention to in Chinese medicine, they use the eyes as the diagnostic tool for the rest of the box.

[01:01:00] [01:01:00] Carl Lanore: [01:01:00] Right. Right.

[01:01:01] Leslie Burke: [01:01:01] So again, yeah, for all you bodybuilders out there, um, and many do take melatonin already because we know how helpful it can be when you're working out and. Causing muscle repair, but the time that your body heals and repairs is during the REM state of sleep at night, and as we get older, we're less and less likely to get into that state.

[01:01:21] Carl Lanore: [01:01:21] We wake up too early for it to occur quite often. What happens, you know, our night is truncated. And now let's talk about the people who don't sleep at all. People who stay up all night. And, you know, your, your, your vision is going to suffer from that type of a lifestyle as well. But, but there's another culprit here that unfortunately few of us can actually get away from.

[01:01:42] And that is blue light. Like where we sit in front of our computers, we look at our cell phones that blue light has been tied to the progression of macular degeneration now. Well, okay. So let's connect those dots.

[01:01:58] Leslie Burke: [01:01:58] Yes. We know where you're going,

[01:02:00] [01:02:00] Carl Lanore: [01:02:00] blue blockers at night so that it causes a spike in melatonin so that we can go to sleep on time.

[01:02:06] So when Lisa and I sit and watch television late at night, we have our blue blockers on and I literally starting sleepy about an hour, hour and a half after putting them on that raises melatonin. Well, if you're not using blue blockers to look at your iPad all night long you're blunting melatonin, air go.

[01:02:23] It's not the wavelength of light. That's damaging your retinas. It's the, the effect that has on the production of melatonin.

[01:02:31] Leslie Burke: [01:02:31] It's both, but yes,

[01:02:33] Carl Lanore: [01:02:33] it is both have your question.

[01:02:35] Leslie Burke: [01:02:35] Yeah. Yeah, it is both. But I th I think, uh, um, you know, they, they've done studies where they show that within 30 minutes of going into a dark room, the, the pineal starts producing melatonin.

[01:02:48] Right. You know, it just starts cranking it out. The minute you get away from the bright light. So, you know, people who do take their cell phones to bed with them, and they're up in the night, checking things, looking at their Twitter account, [01:03:00] you know, um, are not doing themselves any favor as far as anti-aging

[01:03:05] Carl Lanore: [01:03:05] right.

[01:03:06] Leslie Burke: [01:03:06] But I, I just, the study actually surprised dr. Peer Paoli. You know, cause uh, dr. Ye contacted him to help him do this. And dr. Peer Paoli had written the book called the melatonin miracle. Okay. He had a, you know, he's just, he's a world renowned endocrinologist. He's helped coauthor the theory of endocrine medicine that it's a textbook used in, uh, medical schools around the world.

[01:03:32] I mean, this is a big guy. He lives in Switzerland. He's a Chaldean doctor and. He himself was amazed at the level of improvement they got. Cause within three months of taking this particular formula and it's made from organic coffee beans, they actually extract serotonin. If you can imagine from organic coffee beans, which is so counterintuitive, um, but like so many medicines that has an opposite effect.

[01:03:58] Um, and so [01:04:00] that's where they get it from. And then they bond it with, uh, selenium and zinc. And um, within three months, 95%, I think it was, let me figure it out.

[01:04:11] Carl Lanore: [01:04:11] Let's do it. Let's talk about the clinical trials real quick. So, so I actually have it in the radio spot. Maybe we should just listen to the radio spot real quick.

[01:04:19] Hey, listen. Hey, listen to this. Listen, this, listen, hold on. Hundred million people have some form of retinal damage. Also known as macular degeneration. This is expected to double to nearly 22 million by 2050 artificial blue light age type two diabetes are all contributors. Doctors say there's no cure.

[01:04:37] Armed is changing that opinion. In one clinical trial, 93% of patients had arrested or improve their condition. 54% reported lessening of glare, reduce dryness and improve clarity and comfort. And 0% felt worse during treatment and no side effects. Take control of your macular degeneration or keep it from ever occurring, go to wise choice medicine.com and get armed today.

[01:04:59] So there it is. [01:05:00] That's the, that's the results of the study. The only thing I left out of that, because we didn't have enough time to do it in a spot. Was that a large number of the people said they slept so much better and felt better every time.

[01:05:10] Leslie Burke: [01:05:10] Oh yeah,

[01:05:11] Carl Lanore: [01:05:11] yeah. Yeah. And obviously getting your sleep

[01:05:13] Leslie Burke: [01:05:13] spike, it's not causing a spike.

[01:05:15] Um, you, you don't feel groggy the next day. Um, if you're a smaller person, you can cut the pill in half. It's just a little tiny pill. You take it. Oh. You know, 15 half an hour before bedtime. And then from that point forward, try to disconnect from any bright lights. Um, but you will have dreams like you haven't had in a long time.

[01:05:36] Right. Uh,

[01:05:38] Carl Lanore: [01:05:38] which is, which is, which is REM sleep REM is when memory consolidation occurs. And the hard drive is being defragged and that's when you dream that's when you're dreaming, when you're in REM sleep, talk about, talk about type two diabetes. We know that that's a huge problem today. Literally tens of millions of people suffer from it.

[01:05:57] It is a precursor to, [01:06:00] uh, to macular degeneration. Oh, it

[01:06:02] Leslie Burke: [01:06:02] absolutely is. Um, and it's, you know, I mean, what are we going to do? Blood sugar, you know? Um, it's got to be managed and, and what you were talking about earlier, you're just. Who you got off with there? The ketogenic diet. I mean, my goodness. Uh, did you know that the carnivore diet was the diabetic diet back in the late twenties, right?

[01:06:25] Early thirties. Yeah. That's what they used to put. People are literally your diabetes, right? Putting ball. On that diet. And then of course it got pushed aside when the corruption

[01:06:39] Carl Lanore: [01:06:39] became bad. Yes. Yeah,

[01:06:43] Leslie Burke: [01:06:43] yeah, yeah. But so much sugar. I am so glad you brought diabetes up because, um, I, you know, you can do all these things, right.

[01:06:51] But if your blood sugar levels are in the tank and not, not, you know, where they should be or even close, the damage is [01:07:00] being done to your vision. It's insurmountable.

[01:07:02] Carl Lanore: [01:07:02] Right? In fact, it isn't. So vision is the first thing affected, uh, by, by type two diabetes. And that's why, uh, I doctors now will tell you that you look like you have uncontrolled diabetes because they can tell when they, when they look in the, uh, in the eye, uh, with the, uh, with the bio microscope, or even when they do the photo, now they do that.

[01:07:29] That topographical photo of the retina. They could tell you, you know, you have diabetes. Do you need to get to the doctor that the eye is the Canary in the mine? When it comes to the earliest symptoms of type two diabetes.

[01:07:40] Leslie Burke: [01:07:40] Yeah. I use that analogy because it's so true. Um, and so, you know, and we have so many wonderful tools today for managing that and good information finally.

[01:07:52] Carl Lanore: [01:07:52] Well,

[01:07:55] Leslie Burke: [01:07:55] probably the last thing I would. We try to do, um, with [01:08:00] so many wonderful options that are available now, but the good news is that melatonin does help the body regulate that insulin response, which I think is the point you were kind of leading up to. Um, and then of course can see, uh, from a very, uh, you know, direct approach has an anti glycating effect.

[01:08:18] We actually have a tryout of products on our own, on our website that are recommended for macular degeneration, uh, that, and that triad. Really can be targeted to the diabetic patient because we have a glutathione Bose booster in there as well, along with, you know, all of the other elements that are needed to help protect the eyes of the diabetic patient.

[01:08:41] Um, But working out doing the ketogenic diet as well. Uh, Y tremendous,

[01:08:49] Carl Lanore: [01:08:49] the other thing is that most type two diabetics have high blood pressure. And this is a real, real problem. Yeah. Because, because a lot of times what happens with the retina is the, the, the blood vessels coming into the [01:09:00] retina, as you be your blood pressure rises, they actually start to push the retina off of the, the lower layers of the, of, of the globe of the eye.

[01:09:10] And you start getting his wrinkling effect. And it'll show up in an early vision. It'll show up as like on the periphery. You'll start seeing like these, this wave. That's always there. You have this little wrinkle that's out here. You don't notice it a lot cause it's out here. But when you start noticing it, it's already too late because the blood vessels are starting to push the retina off of the, of the globe of the eye.

[01:09:32] And once that happens, Then it's real hard to stop it from going forward. So blood pressure, your from

[01:09:39] Leslie Burke: [01:09:39] your doctors that you have a macular pucker,

[01:09:42] Carl Lanore: [01:09:42] you know,

[01:09:44] Leslie Burke: [01:09:44] Yeah. And, um, but, uh, there's interesting research, um, on melatonin actually working as a high blood pressure management tool, um, it, it works beautifully well for that purpose.

[01:09:59] Um, you would have to [01:10:00] do that of course, under the guidance of your doctor, but there is wonderful research out there. If you look for it on how effective that can be. So, um, at the same time protecting and supporting the back of your eye, you know, so, um, yeah, I think, I think so many things with the eyes are interesting that we don't hear any of this information from our doctors.

[01:10:23] Um, they aren't to give us this kind of information, but there are wonderful preventive things we can do. And, and again, and I've said this before the eye is such an amazing healing machine. The repair rate, the cellular repair rate, the recovery rate. That's why these results were so fast in this clinical trial.

[01:10:41] And I find that to be true. And so many of the studies I've researched is that the results are not five years out, three years. No, they're all three months

[01:10:51] Carl Lanore: [01:10:51] out. Uh,

[01:10:52] Leslie Burke: [01:10:52] I mean, this is not something you have to take indefinitely and hope. You're going to see improvements in our, our customers who have macular [01:11:00] degeneration are just over the moon.

[01:11:01] They go back to the doctor and they're saying, what's going on. If, when you look at those clinical studies, I don't know if you had a chance to, uh, Carl, but the before and after pictures of the fundus and the back of the eye where you can actually see the lesions. I mean, most doctors would look at that and say, there's no way you're going to reverse that.

[01:11:17] Carl Lanore: [01:11:17] That's

[01:11:17] Leslie Burke: [01:11:17] untouchable. Area. And within three to six months, those lesions have completely disappeared. They're healed over. You can actually see those images are just when I saw those images, I would just blown away.

[01:11:31] Carl Lanore: [01:11:31] So, so the website is, is wise choice medicine.com. The product is called armed a R M little E capital D and a, it comes in a 30 or 60 day supply.

[01:11:45] I forget what it was. The day supply comes in a 60 day supply, take one a night before bed and give it a few months and things will start to be noticed by you and your doctor. What are some of the early, so. When you look at the eye, [01:12:00] you know, the phobia centrales is pretty close to where the light focuses on the retina, but the, but the macular region is, uh, is it temporally or nasally?

[01:12:11] I forget what it is is a temporal it's, but it's out, it's out in the PR it's out on the periphery. A lot of times you won't notice the macular degeneration. Because it's in your peripheral vision out here, and you're always focusing on here, but it starts to get blurry out here. So if you start to notice,

[01:12:31] Leslie Burke: [01:12:31] yeah, they don't, they don't know they have it.

[01:12:33] They wouldn't even know they'll have it for that. Very reason until their doctor tells them.

[01:12:37] Carl Lanore: [01:12:37] Right. You've got the winning. Right.

[01:12:39] Leslie Burke: [01:12:39] So with our customers, what I find is many of them haven't even had the. Symptoms yet, but when they go back, they're going in for regular checkups or they're going in for the injections.

[01:12:49] Um, and it's their doctor. That's telling them how good the back of their eye is looking. You know, they, they are seeing, they're feel like their eyes are feeling better and they're looking better, but, [01:13:00] uh, you know, it's really their doctor giving them that verification that is really. You know, so exciting.

[01:13:07] Carl Lanore: [01:13:07] What, what did doctors say about it? Did the patients go well, I'm taking this drop here and did the doctors go, I want to know more. Did they poopoo it?

[01:13:14] Leslie Burke: [01:13:14] Yep. Well, some of them tell them that and they say, well, yeah, it could be. You know, they're very diplomatic.

[01:13:21] Carl Lanore: [01:13:21] Yeah.

[01:13:21] Leslie Burke: [01:13:21] Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think a lot

[01:13:24] Carl Lanore: [01:13:24] of them don't tell their

[01:13:25] Leslie Burke: [01:13:25] doctors that they're doing anything because they don't want to hear, they don't want to hear it.

[01:13:30] Carl Lanore: [01:13:30] I don't use that. The FDA, that's not FDA approved. Don't use that.

[01:13:34] Leslie Burke: [01:13:34] Yeah. I encourage them to have the discussion, but I know a lot of older people, they feel a little overwhelmed. Um, when they go in, uh, with doing that, but, uh, having that good report from the doctor, they become lifetime customers.

[01:13:51] Carl Lanore: [01:13:51] So it is, can see and, uh, armed a good tag team for people to keep their eyes healthy.

[01:13:59] Leslie Burke: [01:13:59] Actually, [01:14:00] if you're going to add, can see to the routine, we actually recommend a tryout of products. Uh, because most people who have macular the generation are taking some carotinoids like lutein and zeaxanthin. Um, and so we have a third product that actually ensures that the optimal balance of all of those peptides are maintained in the eye can see is very powerful and it operates almost identical to what lutein and zeaxanthin does in the eye.

[01:14:26] Only more specific and more direct and more powerful. Um, and so in order to ensure that that balance, cause these are all very powerful. You know, uh, ingredients. And, um, so we have a third product called Naquesey plus that actually helps to keep the balance if you will, the optimal balance. And it's a very inexpensive product can be taken over an extended period of low dose.

[01:14:50] Um, but if you're, we have a, a triad of all three. Or just take the armed by itself if you're dealing with macular degeneration, right?

[01:14:57] Carl Lanore: [01:14:57] Yup.

[01:14:58] Leslie Burke: [01:14:58] Yup. And we also have a [01:15:00] discount code for your listeners today. Carl,

[01:15:03] Carl Lanore: [01:15:03] we've never had a discount code. This is so exciting. I wish I wish I had a band to play music. What is, what is, what is the discount code on

[01:15:14] Leslie Burke: [01:15:14] it's good vision.

[01:15:16] Just good vision. Just type that in when you place your order, there'll be a place for it there on the web.

[01:15:20] Carl Lanore: [01:15:20] And what will they get for typing out? Good vision,

[01:15:23] Leslie Burke: [01:15:23] 10% discount on anything they purchase.

[01:15:25] Carl Lanore: [01:15:25] Oh, that's awesome. Is it two words or one word? Good vision. It's

[01:15:29] Leslie Burke: [01:15:29] all. One word. Good vision.

[01:15:32] Carl Lanore: [01:15:32] I'm typing it out for the people who are watching.

[01:15:36] Okay. The TV, the TV in the video version of this. So there we go. Let's scroll that along this, there we go. Why is choice medicine, a wise choice for your eyes? Get armed for your macular degeneration today. Use code good vision. Get 10% off. And that's good. Site-wide so you can buy anything else up there and save 10%.

[01:15:54] That's wonderful. That's wonderful. I love my candy. I use it [01:16:00] every day and you know, my has gotten so much better. My vision I'm wearing a contact lens today. My vision has gotten so much better over the past five or six months, and I know it's the cancer. And because my cornea cornea was attacked. Yeah.

[01:16:15] Leslie Burke: [01:16:15] You really had a scare there. Carl I'm so happy that you've had such a good recovery with all the things you did. You're a, you're a shining example of how a person can heal themselves with the right knowledge and getting the right information.

[01:16:28] Carl Lanore: [01:16:28] I bought a motorcycle, Leslie. At 62 years old, I decided I wanted a motorcycle again, and I couldn't have wonky vision.

[01:16:36] I was like, man, I got to do something about my vision. I gotta be really diligent. I got to put the cancer in my eye every day. Now I had a little conjunctivitis, a few about three or four weeks ago and it's gone away. But my, my vision out of my right eye is so much clearer now than it was just six months ago.

[01:16:52] And I know it's just going to continue to get better over time. And

[01:16:57] Leslie Burke: [01:16:57] did you use an eyewash then? Did you try to use an [01:17:00] eyewash without

[01:17:00] Carl Lanore: [01:17:00] anything or no, really? I know we talked about this. Our parents used to have, I remember the little blue glass.

[01:17:09] Leslie Burke: [01:17:09] Yeah. It's one of the best things you can do because it really checks the bacteria load in the eye and really allows for a faster healing response.

[01:17:17] It'll clean things like that up really fast.

[01:17:19] Carl Lanore: [01:17:19] So, yeah. Well, listen, Leslie, I want to thank you for being here today and I want to thank you. I really meant that sincerely when, what I said about doing for the eyes, because the, um, there are lots of good information out there about eyes, but nobody gets it and the doctors don't hear it.

[01:17:34] They're not going to tell their patients, even when they do. And you have spent your career getting this information out there and allowing people to take control of their own vision outcome. And that is an amazing thing because. You know, we can't do our own dentistry. And for a long time, we couldn't do anything about our eyes, but now we can, now we can

[01:17:56] Leslie Burke: [01:17:56] neither, really something you can do something about.

[01:17:58] And they respond very [01:18:00] well and very quickly. So don't be afraid to try is what I would say.

[01:18:03] Carl Lanore: [01:18:03] Chad, Jared did a commercial for us. You didn't know about this. I'll send that to you cause you've probably never heard it. Um, but he was on dexamethadone drops. 10 a day for six months. And he developed the cataract.

[01:18:17] And so he bought, he listened to the show. He bought Kancey eyedrops. He started using them twice a day and now his doctor can't even find his cataract anymore. So, you know, people hear this, they probably think, Oh yeah, you know, I can't be real. Yes, it's real. Don't get the cataract surgery until you try this first.

[01:18:37] You may still need the cataract surgery. You may be. One of those people that just can't be helped without surgery, but don't get the cataract surgery until you've tried. See eye drop because you may not need the cataract surgery. And I, and so many people, I know people who buy it for their dogs she's was a notorious.

[01:18:58] Yeah. She's a [01:19:00] notorious. There are notorious cheeses and notorious for developing cataracts. I don't know. I probably have, have helped 500 people over the years. Who have used these eyedrops in their dog's eyes and their cataracts went away. I know it's

[01:19:14] Adam Tzur: [01:19:14] amazing.

[01:19:15] Leslie Burke: [01:19:15] Well, and with dogs, you can see it, you know, humans, you don't feed the cataract.

[01:19:19] So it's really fun with dogs. Cause you see that cloudy, hazy. And human eyes are different. They don't, you don't see that pays on the human eye. Um, so with dogs, you actually watch it melting away as dr. Bevin Shea up the Russian doctor, he coined the phrase melting snow.

[01:19:34] Carl Lanore: [01:19:34] Yeah. Right. Thanks.

[01:19:36] Leslie Burke: [01:19:36] Outer parameters inward, right.

[01:19:38] A dog. And you really can see it happening before your eyes. So it's, that's exactly what's happening in the human eye. You just can't see it disappearing from the outside. You see it from the inside looking out.

[01:19:50] Carl Lanore: [01:19:50] Right, right. Leslie. Thank you so much. The website is w why is choice medicine.com. Use the code good vision and get 10% [01:20:00] off everything.

[01:20:00] Site-wide thanks for being here today and we'll see, we'll see you soon. Okay. Alright. And then tomorrow we have a really interesting show. There is an African beef snack that I was introduced to when I was in Ireland. Um, and it's called biltong. And I can't get enough of it. Now we know want to hold this up.

[01:20:24] We know have we, I have a biltong sponsor. He's going to be on tomorrow. If you love beef jerky, you're never going to eat beef jerky. Again, once you try this stuff, it's more concentrated with protein. It has zero sugar in it. It's so delicious and it's moist. It's li it's literally air dried for two weeks.

[01:20:46] Think about that as compared to they put that beef jerky in the oven and they, they may, maybe it's done in, in a couple hours. This stuff was amazing, originated in Africa. And we now have a guy here in the United States making it and he's making it [01:21:00] so good. You'll never eat beef jerky again, tune in tomorrow for that.

[01:21:03] Please share the show. Always share the show. You know, we can help a lot of people if you share the show. Okay. Thank you. [01:22:00]