[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] hey, Hey, welcome back to another episode of superhuman radio. Today is October 15th, 2020, and we have a nice show planned for you today. Uh, during the first hour, we're going to be talking, uh, with Marette. Traber I hope I pronounce it. Right. I practiced before the show, but that's me. Um, we're going to be talking about vitamin a, excuse me.

[00:00:22] The, uh, allergies in the Ohio Valley are plaguing me. We're going to be talking about vitamin D from a standpoint of neonatal, uh, when moms are at that age of, uh, having babies or in the process of having babies, the importance of vitamin a and, uh, that'll be during the first hour. And then at the second hour, we're going to be joined by.

[00:00:43] Uh, Danny, uh, dr. Danny, uh, herons and dr. William seeds from chronometer, uh, to talk to the audience about what the holdup was with the epigenetic tests they are being delivered. Now, I got mine yesterday in the mail and the email. [00:01:00] I haven't looked at it yet. Uh, but we have had some people look at theirs and we have some questions that we're going to be able to answer a little bit later in the show.

[00:01:08] Um, before we started, of course I have to thank my title sponsor, legendary foods. If you are a low carb, low sugar, high protein person, you'll love their website. They're nut butters, they're seasoned almonds. And most notably they are tasty pastry, which is basically a pop tart with nine grams of high leucine, high quality protein, and less than one gram of sugar.

[00:01:31] And now that the kids are going back to school by them, Put them in their lunch boxes. They won't know they're eating something good. Eat legendary.com. Use the code SHR 10 for 10% off your entire order. And without further delay, then let me get rid of that image. Morat how are you?

[00:01:53] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:01:53] Oh, fantastic. Thank you so much, Carl, for having me on your show, I'm always excited to talk about vitamin E

[00:02:00] [00:02:00] Carl Lanore: [00:02:00] and really you've studied vitamin E for a very long time.

[00:02:03] Haven't

[00:02:03] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:02:03] you? Yeah, I hate to say it, but since I was in kindergarten, it feels like, you know, the eighties.

[00:02:11] Carl Lanore: [00:02:11] I remember the eighties. Of course. Yeah, I do. I do. So, um, before we talk about this particular study, which. Uh, shows prevent profound, um, unwanted effects in the development of the fetal brain. With the lack of vitamin a what research preceded this, that kind of made you think you needed to do this one.

[00:02:35] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:02:35] Well, I actually got into studies of vitamin E. I was working in New York city at NYU medical center with her Kayden. He was one of the pioneers  vitamin E deficiency actually affects humans. And I think everybody was pretty much saying, well, yeah, you can show it. And rats, you could screw up their diets, but people that's so much.

[00:03:00] [00:02:59] And. We started using stable isotope, labeled vitamin E and mass spectrometry. And we can actually demonstrate that people have a protein in their liver that recognizes alpha tocopherol. It's like a key and a lock system. When you eat all kinds of different forms of vitamin E the special one. Is alpha tocopherol.

[00:03:28] It binds to this protein and this protein's job is to regulate vitamin E concentrations in the body. And what was stunning about this is that previously nobody knew it. We all kind of thought, Hey, gamma, tocopherol is really high in the American diet. That must be important. And it turns out the human body can't convert the forms of vitamin E.

[00:03:56] And it especially picks out [00:04:00] alpha tocopherol.

[00:04:01] Carl Lanore: [00:04:01] So since we're talking about these different forms of vitamin E in nature, there exists eight that Toko trials is that how the right way to pronounce it took a trial and took call for roles. And so, um, It's I look to evolution for everything. I'm a firm believer in.

[00:04:19] If you look at, if you take any situation with the human body and you look at why it would benefit us from an evolutionary perspective or why it would harm us from an evolution perspective, everything kind of comes out. Why, why would we be exposed through a plant sources of vitamin D with all eight of these?

[00:04:40] And we really only use one. The rest of them are excreted. Right?

[00:04:45] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:04:45] Yeah. And it's an excellent question. And actually I was very dubious that, you know, it's fat soluble it, all these different forms, plants make them, they must be important. [00:05:00] And it turns out that plants, you know, there's. He lied on them. They need to protect themselves from this oxidant environment.

[00:05:12] So they make all kinds of antioxidants in addition to vitamin E. But if you look through evolution, there has been a protein. Preferring alpha tocopherol in most animals. It's very surprising. I, this protein, he was talking about this in the human liver is the one that you can actually find in salmon liver.

[00:05:38] You can find it. Um, I I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I was trained as a human nutritionist. So evolutionary biology is, is not really something I've been worked on hard, but it's surprised me. And, um, I've done a lot of work looking at well [00:06:00] chemically. If these are all antioxidants, what's the difference. And it turns out something like gamma tocopherol.

[00:06:09] When it becomes a radical, when it's doing its job, it actually becomes activated. And yeah, it can react with other molecules and cause problems. Vitamin E alpha tocopherol, when it becomes a radical, it sits there and waits around until it can find some vitamin C and the vitamin C. Reduces the radical. We now have the unreactive form of alpha tocopherol.

[00:06:44] And this explains why you need to eat vitamin C every day, because you're destroying your vitamin C protecting yourself from radicals.

[00:06:56] Carl Lanore: [00:06:56] Um, I should also say to the audience that while you [00:07:00] are at Oregon state, you are actually in the Linus Pauling lab, correct?

[00:07:04] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:07:04] Um, the Linus Pauling Institute, it's an entire Institute founded by Linus Pauling.

[00:07:10] Yeah.

[00:07:12] Carl Lanore: [00:07:12] And Ava Helen Pauling professor. Which is a very highly regarded professorship within the Linus Pauling Institute. Correct?

[00:07:21] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:07:21] That's absolutely true. I'm very proud of that because, um, it's it says my peers recognize me for the work I've done.

[00:07:31] Carl Lanore: [00:07:31] Right. And the reason I say that now is because the talking about vitamins and no one contributed more to understanding antioxidants and vitamins in general, then Linus, Pauling.

[00:07:41] Uh, so

[00:07:41] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:07:41] I would say that's true.

[00:07:42] Carl Lanore: [00:07:42] Yeah. I mean, it's undisputed, everybody knows Linus Pauling for, especially vitamin C. We're talking about vitamin IBA. We're talking about vitamin C at the same time. So let's, let's now talk about your research. Tell me, um, how your research was designed using [00:08:00] zebra fish. And we've actually had a professor Robin Tanguay on the show before she talked about the five G study.

[00:08:07] And my audience has learned why zebrafish are ideal for these types of tests, but in case they missed that episode. Explain why we use zebra fish for these types of tests.

[00:08:18] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:08:18] Well, I think in general people, are they frowned upon the idea of using human fetuses for research? Um, if you want to try and study vitamin E it was discovered because it.

[00:08:35] Protects fetuses. And so to look at rodents, mice or rats, you kill a lot of animals. And so I always thought I don't want to kill a lot of animals. I don't think it's going to be easy to do those kinds of studies. And I went to a lecture by Robin Tang way and she was just fantastic. She was explaining [00:09:00] how you can have hundreds of animals in a group.

[00:09:04] You can get them to do, um, essentially toxicology research. She has robots. She has high throughput screening. She actually is looking for. Toxins in the environment using zebra fish studies. And I said, well, that's all swell and fine, but it's a fish for God's sakes. I'm interested in human nutrition. Right.

[00:09:31] And she was like, yeah, but 70% of the genes are identical or homologous, which means they're close to the same. They have the same function and this would allow you. To do zebrafish research and look at vitamin E. And I said, well, that's great. Um, I want to make a vitamin E deficient diet for those zebra fish.

[00:09:54] And she said, what? Well, there's a little bit of a problem because we feed them [00:10:00] paramecium and paramecium, these are little, you know?

[00:10:06] Carl Lanore: [00:10:06] Yeah.

[00:10:07] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:10:07] Yeah. And, um, I'm not gonna figure out how to make a paramecium vitamin E deficient so I can, so we, the first, it was like the first year and a half, two years, we had to figure out how do you make a defined diet for zebra fish?

[00:10:26] So that took some work. And then we fed the animals and the humor, the adults were fine. But the eggs, Oh my God. The eggs got into so much trouble. A zebra fish is beautiful because it goes from an egg to, with swimming fish in five days.

[00:10:46] Carl Lanore: [00:10:46] Wow.

[00:10:47] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:10:47] So yeah, it was like, okay. I'm like, my research is cooking with gas now.

[00:10:55] Um, we can do this. And so. We discovered [00:11:00] that 80% of the animals were deformed or dead either these little embryos, if they didn't have vitamin E in the diets of the mothers. Right. And it's like the, the eggs are not fed at all. So we have a closed system, right? The moms, the moms are laying, what they think are absolutely the perfect egg.

[00:11:25] That's going to grow into a fine baby. Right. And by the way, the moms weigh almost a hundred eggs. So we got plenty of eggs.

[00:11:33] Carl Lanore: [00:11:33] Right? Wow. That's amazing. And five day maturation, that's like high-speed studies. Yeah,

[00:11:40] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:11:40] absolutely. So the downside is it takes about two months, three months to get the adults eat deficient.

[00:11:50] But once we got either deficient moms, we can and go for probably nine months a year of them laying eggs every two weeks, we get [00:12:00] embryos to study. So we've done it. Tons of studies. We've published about 16 papers. Now over about the last eight years showing how vitamin E deficiency hurts the animal.

[00:12:15] We've looked at fat that's because vitamin D is fat soluble. And we've studied. How were the fats changed? How were they oxidized? What lipids in particular you've, you've heard of polyunsaturated fats. You've heard of fish oils. Well, It's exactly that it is the DHA docosahexaenoic acid that is oxidized in these E deficient animals.

[00:12:43] And we went, wow. Okay. We're we're we're on the track now, right? Well, it's, it's more complicated than that. The membrane. Of every cell has phospholipids and these phospholipids are called [00:13:00] phos. Some of them phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylcholine with DHA, that's the one that's getting destroyed in the zebrafish embryo.

[00:13:10] It's also destroyed in the zebra efficient brain of the adult animals. So all of your life, sinners who say, well, I'm not going to get pregnant. I don't care. Vitamin D is important for your brain. Doesn't matter.

[00:13:27] Carl Lanore: [00:13:27] Curious about the mature fish, the adult fish, the moms that were laying and the males that were in, they showed no changes at all.

[00:13:36] I mean, I'm thinking, I'm thinking vitamin E deficiency may be one of the contributors to the widespread plague of neuropathy we have in this country, the de myelination of nerves. You think that it plays a role in that.

[00:13:49] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:13:49] Not in de myelination. It turns out that vitamin E is especially needed by the large caliber axons in the sensory [00:14:00] nervous system.

[00:14:01] So either deficient children and usually their children, because, um, it's a genetic defect in that protein. I talked about turns out to be named the alpha tocopherol transfer protein.

[00:14:16] Carl Lanore: [00:14:16] Yeah. Transfer rates or something like that. Right.

[00:14:18] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:14:18] Yeah. Yeah, we, we call it TTP, but that protein. Um, binds alpha tocopherol.

[00:14:26] And if you have a genetic defect, you become vitamin E deficient. And two year old children were dying because they had a genetic defect. Right. And it's a very rare disorder. There are only probably, um, a hundred people in the world that have been described to have this, but largely it is such a severe defect that most of the kids don't even, I think they probably are not even born, but, [00:15:00] um, back to this, it seems like I'm telling you this very long.

[00:15:04] Carl Lanore: [00:15:04] It's good. It's good. You're doing an excellent job. So go ahead. No, you are

[00:15:10] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:15:10] well back to my zebra fish, the adults, the rains, the muscles, the livers, the hearts, they're all screwed up. We're we're doing a study right now where we're looking at those year old fish and they don't swim as well. We're doing an eye test because we think they don't see as well.

[00:15:32] We've got data showing they've got. Oxidation going on in the eyes, by the way, we're giving hints to people. Please wear sunglasses. When you go out the UV light, if the sun is very bad for your eyes. So, um, that's always an important tip, I think. Um, not only wear sunscreen, but we are sunglasses. Okay. So my baby [00:16:00] fish, um, We have really fancy mass spec facilities at Oregon state university.

[00:16:08] And so my colleagues were doing something called don't mix. And I said, Whoa, what is that? Lipidomics? And they said, well, we just take an extract of the entire animal and we inject it in the machine and the machine can measure it. Everything. And I said, Oh my God, I want to do that. And that's how we figured out that it is exactly phosphatidylcholine with the DHA that is being oxidized.

[00:16:38] I mean, it's in the

[00:16:39] Carl Lanore: [00:16:39] absence of vitamin E in the absence of death. Wow. So, you know, we just, we just talked about anticholinergic drugs and how they're actually causing people to progress faster in Alzheimer's disease. Many of them are over the counter. And so we were talking about Colin Erdrich effects and acetylcholine and all that sort of stuff.

[00:17:00] [00:17:00] And what you're talking about here is, is critical too, because you could be eating all the egg yolks you want and all this other stuff, but it's going to be burnt away oxidized before it could be used at the synopsis of nerves.

[00:17:14] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:17:14] Well, I am not sure I'm going to go there. Yeah. But I can tell you that the deficient animals are oxidizing, those fatty acids and the animal.

[00:17:26] Remember in my embryo, it's a closed system, so we don't have any way of getting new food. So they have to decide, am I going to take that phospholipid and the Coleen there. Am I going to maintain a membrane or am I going to take the Coleen to use as a neurotransmitter? Or am I going to use the Coleen to make methyl groups for epigenetic regulation?

[00:17:55] You know, it's like, all right, we've got a bank account. We've only got so [00:18:00] much in it.

[00:18:02] Carl Lanore: [00:18:02] Right? Fascinating.

[00:18:05] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:18:05] What we discovered, not only with the lipidomics where you only look at fat metabolomics, we look at metabol. So now we're talking

[00:18:18] Carl Lanore: [00:18:18] everything, they eat your house.

[00:18:20] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:18:20] And I actually heard, I actually, I heard a lecture on Alzheimer's disease and why do neurons in the brain die?

[00:18:30] And they ran out of glucose and I said, We haven't even looked at glucose and I was in Germany. The time I called my student up, well, I emailed her. I'm not as bad as calling from Germany in the middle of the night and said, I heard this lecture. Glucose is important. Do we have any data on glucose? She was, she was a crazy hard worker.

[00:18:55] She was up in the middle of the night, saw my email, went through the data, [00:19:00] sent me back the results. Yes. Glucose is down in the E deficient fish. Yeah. Nice. Wow. That is so good. It's exciting. And I talked to the scientist, dr. Enrique Cardenas from USC pharmacology and he basically said, wow. That is so important.

[00:19:19] You have to test it out, measure their oxygen consumption, measure their, um, ability to use glucose. Um, we can do all that kinds of assays. Let's just get on the stick and do this. And we should, we literally. Supplemented the deficient eggs with more glucose. And I'm not an advocate. We shouldn't run out and eat sugar, but basically these animals were running out of glucose and therefore they didn't have enough energy to even protect themselves from antioxidant, oxidative [00:20:00] stress by recycling their antioxidants.

[00:20:03] But the. The gist of the story is vitamin E is like a little spider web kind of thing that you've, if you lose it, vitamin E you start losing other things. And pretty soon all kinds of systems, all kinds of pathways are messed up. And so we saw Coleen was down. Which means epigenetic regulation we saw glucose was down, which means their whole ability to protect themselves.

[00:20:37] And they need glucose to build new cells in this growing embryo. And so, um, I was very jazzed about that, but. When I said, okay, what's really happening. First in this developing egg, the first thing that happens is you form a neural tube. And I [00:21:00] said, we must have neural tube defects. And what happened is the reviewers of my NIH grant said, well, it's a nice hypothesis, but show us the data that there's.

[00:21:13] Actually a neural tube defect. And I thought, really,

[00:21:19] Carl Lanore: [00:21:19] how do you do it? But we're talking about very small brains too, right? I mean, it's,

[00:21:25] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:21:25] you're talking, something is smaller than a head of a pin, right. And this is an egg that's turning into an animal. And so I have an incredibly talented PhD student Brian had and Brian said, okay, I will learn how to do in situ hybridization.

[00:21:48] I will look for genes that are involved in developing the neural tube. So when you think neural tube defects and folic acid deficiency, and [00:22:00] we've given. All kinds of folic acid in the diet now, and we're trying to protect them. We're, we're looking to protect pregnant moms by putting folic acid in the food.

[00:22:14] It all worked sort of right. But we still have moms who are having miscarriages and everybody is scratching their heads. How is this possible? We have. You know, it's like healthcare in America. We have a great healthcare system. We have great natures. And um, then why is this happening? I hope you heard the sarcasm there.

[00:22:41] I think what we're concerned about is that people are not eating great diets. They're eating crummy diets. They're not getting their, all of the nutrients let alone. All of those bioactive [00:23:00] compounds that are in foods. And so there's huge concern. And what we did for this study with the zebra fish is started looking, okay.

[00:23:12] We find big changes in the biochemistry at 24 hours, 48 hours. But my students said, well, if we see changes already at 24 hours, let's go backwards. Let's go to 12 hours, let's go to six hours. Can we actually say, when is this happening? Right. So what you have to understand about the zebra fish is you flick on the light and the, the fish spawn on command.

[00:23:44] You know exactly how old those eggs are. So you get a whole. Cohort. That's all the same age. They're behaving nicely. They're discussing, growing along, everything looks good. [00:24:00] And then it's not. And what I think is exciting about this, the study is we started looking for that liver protein. Remember we talked at the beginning.

[00:24:14] Yeah. The liver tocopherol transfer protein. Okay. That protein binds vitamin E well. These fish don't have a liver until 48 hours. Oh, wow. And when we looked at, for the gene for this protein, we found it at six hours, we found it at 12 hours. We found it at 24 hours and we even knocked it down. So that no gene is expressed.

[00:24:40] Well, if you do that, the animals are all dead bike for 24 hours. So you can't do a study with dead fish. So we went back to our diet fish, and my student Brian look, four. Can we actually say, where is the tocopherol transfer protein [00:25:00] since there is no liver? Where is it? Yeah. Well, the yolk, you know, when you have a chicken egg, has this nice yellow.

[00:25:08] Yep. Well, the zebrafish, the same thing, you have a big yolk and the embryo starts forming on the edges of the yolk. Well, the idea of the yolk is all the nutrition is there to be, um, used as food by the animal and you're dissolving the yolk. So we found the tocopherol transfer protein is in that yolk.

[00:25:31] Yeah. Okay. But that's not where most of it was. Most of it was on the edges of the neural tube. So you can have to imagine the tube has I look at my camera here and spread and figure out how to show you a tube. So here's the tube and it folds over. And then it becomes a brain and the rest of the tube becomes the spinal cord.

[00:25:56] And what was happening is on these edges [00:26:00] that are folding together. Those edges is where the tocopherol transfer protein is. Wow. Now what we're on hot on the trail of is, is the chicken  transfer protein there because there's something about that protein that's really necessary that it's doing something else or.

[00:26:27] The more obvious question it's there because it's putting alpha tocopherol right there at that cutting edge of development of the brain, right. To help the brain form right.

[00:26:45] Carl Lanore: [00:26:45] Responsible for a variety of different differentiation steps, uh, you know, actually making the brain. And in fact, I want you to get this in real quick.

[00:26:53] Before we take a break. Um, there are very, there are two very common neural tube defects in [00:27:00] human children. Spinal bifida is one of them. So could it be that moms who give birth to children with these defects may have been vitamin D deficient during their pregnancy?

[00:27:15] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:27:15] The short answer is maybe.

[00:27:17] Carl Lanore: [00:27:17] Yeah, that's the, that's the responsible, that's the responsible answer, right?

[00:27:22] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:27:22] Yeah, we don't know. But what I would tell you is what we're seeing with the fish biochemistry is that we're depleting, Coleen and Coleen and folic acid work together to promote how well. Folic acid works. Right? And so if you've not gotten enough Coleen you're in trouble and I would point out the other thing is anencephaly means the brain is outside the neural tube.

[00:27:54] So it's a miss forming of the brain. And that is exactly where we're seeing trouble with [00:28:00] vitamin E in the fish. So, so far we've only done this in the fish. There's at least one. Epidemiologic study done in women, looking at malnourished women in Nepal, and there, they found women who have low serum, vitamin D levels had a higher risk of miscarriage.

[00:28:28] Now that's not proof.

[00:28:30] Carl Lanore: [00:28:30] Yeah. It's correlation. Just correlation. Yeah. But still gives you, it gives you a reason to do a study.

[00:28:37] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:28:37] You know what I mean? I'd like to emphasize to any of your listeners who are thinking that they might want to get pregnant. This is the time you have to actually have enough vitamin E before you get pregnant, where we're seeing the critical need for vitamin E in the [00:29:00] embryo is the question is roughly equivalent to 22 days in human pregnancy.

[00:29:08] Carl Lanore: [00:29:08] Wow. Yeah, it's too late to respond with neonatal vitamins at your doctor's office. When that happens.

[00:29:14] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:29:14] Exactly. And what terrifies me is those teenage girls that accidentally get pregnant. Who've been eating in a really crappy diets because they want to be skinny and beautiful. Right. It's.

[00:29:33] Carl Lanore: [00:29:33] Tragic tragic.

[00:29:34] Cause you know, so many people think, does it play a role in the etiology of various diseases? And they're just so wrong. I want to take a quick commercial break. I have a lot of questions. Um, now, now that you've kind of set the table, I have a lot of questions that I'm sure the audience wants answers to as well.

[00:29:52] So stay tuned. We'll be right back with more superhuman radio.

[00:29:58] Spit that out right [00:30:00] now. This is the superhuman channel.

[00:30:09] welcome back. We're talking with Marette Traber about how vitamin E facts, the forming brain. But it also probably affects the adult brain as you've been pointing out the adult zebrafish didn't farewell either. Um, but the fact that the brain didn't form properly in the babies was much more, uh, specific and apparent.

[00:30:35] So. You were on the team that came up with the us RDA for vitamin E every single day, some time ago. So you, you, you, this is a great question to ask you as opposed to anybody else in the world. Okay. If we're not getting enough, vitamin E let's say, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of foods that are rich in vitamin eating, you know, and most of them are oils because it's a fat soluble.

[00:31:00] [00:31:00] Vitamin, um, olive oil, for instance, or avocados or various nuts. If you're not eating these foods, then supplementation probably is a wise thing. So we've gone from the RDA, which a lot of people will argue will keep you alive, but not optimize your body to excessively high doses of all, all supplements across the board.

[00:31:27] What's what's a reasonable dose. A vitamin E to not only keep you from being deficient, but also having an abundance enough for some of these other functions we're talking about protecting the DHE a and so on and so on.

[00:31:46] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:31:46] That's an excellent question and I hope you have another two or three hours so we can talk.

[00:31:53] Um, I seriously have been working on this problem for over 30 [00:32:00] years and. The latest data we have is that you probably are using up about 15 milligrams a day. Now, now where that's a big time concern is if you look at most of the dietary recommendations, they're saying eat 15 milligrams a day and probably 96% of women.

[00:32:30] That's just 96% of American women don't get even 12. So we're short. I think men are almost equally as bad. They're probably at 90% because they probably were willing to eat fat foods. Um, but I think. Eating nuts, like almonds or hazelnuts eating. [00:33:00] Avocados. Those are good fats, but as you say, some people don't want to eat those kinds of foods.

[00:33:06] They don't like them. Um, and we prefer supplement. Now, there was a sort of terrifying study. It was called the select trial where they were looking at vitamin E to protect men and prostate cancer.

[00:33:22] Carl Lanore: [00:33:22] I remember that one because I was going to ask you about that. They said don't take vitamin D because it's linked to prostate cancer.

[00:33:28] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:33:28] Yeah, they said it was dangerous. And I looked at this and I said, well, I have, I literally. Tried to make lemonade out of lemons since, and got a grant funded saying if vitamin is dangerous, we need to study the toxicology. We need to over killed rats with vitamin E. And so we gave them injections of vitamin E.

[00:33:54] So absolutely. I knew, you know, little tiny rat body, [00:34:00] 250 grams. I put one gram of vitamin E. It was huge. The animals didn't die. What they did is they bled a lot. And

[00:34:10] Carl Lanore: [00:34:10] when we were, and it does have a blood thinning effect. Right.

[00:34:14] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:34:14] Yeah. But see, but you know, what's really funny.

[00:34:16] Carl Lanore: [00:34:16] Anything that's anti-inflammatory seems to thin the blood.

[00:34:19] So vitamin D must have an antiinflammatory component to it as well. What do you think.

[00:34:24] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:34:24] It's possible, but I wanted to tell you, vitamin K vitamin K, there is an interaction between vitamin E and vitamin K. And if you take too much vitamin E your vitamin K goes down and there are all kinds of abnormalities.

[00:34:44] People attribute to high levels of vitamin E intake. But when you look at these studies, they're always crazy there. A relatively few people and they're all kinds of different things. Left ventricular [00:35:00] dysfunction. There is hemorrhagic stroke. There's aortic stenosis. There's the prostate problem. Um, seems to me there's something else, but we'll skip over it for the moment.

[00:35:15] Right? All of those things are related to too little vitamin K. And when you think about the select trial was done in men and what do men eat? Meat and potatoes. Do they want any, have a little romaine salad on the side? No, I don't think so. Right. And so the intake of vitamin K is critically important and it turns out that there is an enzyme that.

[00:35:44] Activates vitamin K and turns it from the form that's in fruits and vegetables into something called minute Quinones for, we found in the brain, 80% of [00:36:00] the brain vitamin K is as menaquinone for when we gave labeled vitamin K, it all went to the brain. And when we inject. I did the rats with all that vitamin E half of their vitamin K in the brain disappeared.

[00:36:21] And this didn't take months, this took less than three days.

[00:36:25] Carl Lanore: [00:36:25] Wow. Wow.

[00:36:27] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:36:27] I'm looking at this going well. Well, well is right. So I think if you're going to take vitamin E supplements, make sure. That you eat lots of green leafy vegetables. And if you hate those at least take a supplement that has vitamin K in it.

[00:36:46] Carl Lanore: [00:36:46] And it sounds like you should take C as well, vitamin C as well, if you're taking vitamin E. So it sounds like C E and K should be always taken together. So, so. And your theory or your, your, [00:37:00] your, in your mind, what is an effective dose? Like what is it an ICU compared to? Is it one microgram, one, are you, or something like that?

[00:37:10] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:37:10] Oh, it's so complicated. And it's so complicated because the original. Ability to measure vitamin E because it's an antioxidant was, um, very, very poor. It took a long time to figure out how to do it that well. And so all of this, if you go to the store and you read the labels, you see it's well, is it.

[00:37:34] Tocopherol or tocopherol acetate and is a tocotrienol which form is it? Um, and you, you literally have to take your magnifying glass with you because D L alpha tocopherol versus D alpha. Of course the DL is

[00:37:53] Carl Lanore: [00:37:53] synthetic, right? It's a synthetic form of now that's been, that's gotten a bad rap. It's actually been said that that will block the [00:38:00] beneficial effects of, uh, of natural tocopherol.

[00:38:04] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:38:04] Um, I'm kind of on, on the side that says that I don't actually agree with that. Um, it turns out that that protein, we started talking about that protein. It's a lock and key thing, and it turns out that the protein recognizes how the structure of vitamin E looks. And so the structure of vitamin E fits into the protein.

[00:38:34] And it's very important because half of the synthetic does not match. So, and

[00:38:42] Carl Lanore: [00:38:42] well, they call that they call that  I think, right. A Chi.

[00:38:49] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:38:49] Eight different stereo, isomers of alpha tocopherol in the synthetic four of them or two are, and four of them are two [00:39:00] S the protein doesn't recognize the two S they get metabolized and excreted.

[00:39:06] The two are forms are put into the plasma and they seem to work as antioxidants. Just fine. So, yeah. That's where there is a big fight over what is an ICU and how do you match it to milligrams? And basically the 2000 RDAs that I was involved with defined alpha tocopherol as two R alpha tocopherol. It's the stereo isomer recognized by that protein.

[00:39:39] That's made all of those 400 people. Very confused. Right? That's

[00:39:49] Carl Lanore: [00:39:49] it. That's it. This guy just said, he goes, I'm confused about tocopherols. It's true. What can we take? What should we take?

[00:39:57] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:39:57] I think. Whenever is [00:40:00] cheapest, which is turns out usually it's synthetic. Um, but my, my concern is that you don't take too much because of the potential for driving down vitamin K.

[00:40:14] And honestly, one of the challenges of studying vitamin K is I said, Oh, it's in the brain. It's not in the blood so much. And so if you try and measure how much is in the blood, you don't know where you are. You'd

[00:40:30] Carl Lanore: [00:40:30] have to biopsy the brain. You have to do a punch biopsy. Exactly.

[00:40:34] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:40:34] Well, you know, we, we try and, you know, recruit subjects and damn people don't want to have.

[00:40:43] Carl Lanore: [00:40:43] Come on.

[00:40:44] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:40:44] What's the big deal.

[00:40:45] Carl Lanore: [00:40:45] Haven't you seen silence haven't you seen silence of the lambs, so, okay. So the most common, uh, natural or synthetic form of vitamin a [00:41:00] is 400. I use if I'm right, the, um, the  or three are uses one microgram.

[00:41:09] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:41:09] So it's when milligrams of DL alpha tocopherol acetate. So the ICU was defined as the synthetic form.

[00:41:20] And what we've said is what people need is. 15 milligrams of R R R, which is the natural form of alpha tocopherol. And if you are going to buy supplements, then the cheaper wins are the synthetic and the synthetic ones, half of the number of milligrams, there are actually the kind that the body can use.

[00:41:50] Now, when you eat them, All of them get absorbed and the body gets rid of the other half. So it's kind of wasteful in that [00:42:00] sense. Right. But I think it's important to really eat a good diet is what it comes from. Yeah.

[00:42:07] Carl Lanore: [00:42:07] Yeah. But if you do want to supplement, I think if I, if I remember correctly, you said that you kind of use up about 15 milligrams a day and so that, so taking 50 mil, 15 milligrams a day, Would just top you off, but if you are already deficient, you probably need to take more because you want to net gain every day.

[00:42:26] So maybe you want to take 20 milligrams a day. So 15 is burned off and five will be stored in fat. What do you think?

[00:42:33] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:42:33] Well, except it doesn't actually get stored and that's a study. I just did. Um, we are not sure. What is happening to vitamin E once you eat it? Uh, it was a very interesting study. We used stable isotopes.

[00:42:50] We ran this study at the NIH clinical center. We gave vitamin E intravenously in a special emotion that [00:43:00] looked like, um, the form you would be absorbing Kylo microns from the intestine. And what we found is that you absorbed. About half of the amount of vitamin E you eat. It appears in the plasma very quickly and over about 48 hours.

[00:43:22] Mt. Half of it disappears. And then it was, it was a steady mite. My staff didn't enjoy doing, because we then measured it in the urine and the feces. Where did my label go? Right. Um, we can find it.

[00:43:39] Carl Lanore: [00:43:39] So, so, so the whole, you know, I remember a long, long time ago, probably 25 years ago, I started taking, um, a fairly large daily dose of vitamin E.

[00:43:51] And I remember my doctor. Dr Swift saying to me, be careful with that. That's fat soluble. You don't just use it store. It gets [00:44:00] stored up. Unlike B. Now we know even B six can, if you don't drink enough water B vitamins, don't come out of your either, but that's another discussion. So what you're saying is it really isn't, it's not storing itself up day in and day out where you're going to have this overload in your body.

[00:44:19] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:44:19] It's that's exactly right. We were quite surprised with vitamin K it's even faster than vitamin E. So that's why it's important to eat your green leafy vegetables every day. Vitamin E appears in the plasma and it. That protein is critical for keeping the concentrations even, and most people look when you measure their plants.

[00:44:46] Like they've got okay. Levels in the plasma, but we don't know what are the tissues that need, you know, is it your muscle? Is it your brain? Um, where is it going? We. And I've probably done [00:45:00] one of the few studies where we took people apart and measure different parts of their body to see how much vitamin E in each one of those organs.

[00:45:10] Um, we did this almost 20 years ago now, and it's one of those things where we were very appreciative that people who had been diagnosed with cancer, uh, agreed to make, to take the label tocopherol so that once they passed away, they could. Dedicate their bodies to science, and we could measure how much vitamin is there, but it was only a handful of people, but gave us huge insights into understanding.

[00:45:40] Vitamin E is in every cell in your body. There's different organs that need more. And clearly we're learning the brain. The brain uses up most of the oxygen, the body use. I think that's surprising.

[00:45:56] Carl Lanore: [00:45:56] Yeah. Yeah. And there you go. The antioxidant production in the brain. [00:46:00] I want to take our last commercial break.

[00:46:01] When we come back, I have two questions. The first one is, does the microbiome play any kind of role in the absorption of vitamin a? And the second question is if people have been subclinically deficient for most of their lives and they manifest some neural issues, maybe a nutritional neuropathies does taking vitamin E.

[00:46:26] Help them, uh, re even re re if not, uh, slow the progression down, reverse it, stay tuned. We're going to answer those questions on the other fact, they took ever again, you were listening to the superhuman channel. Don't hate us because we feel good.

[00:46:45] welcome. Back to superhuman radio. It was a fascinating discussion, far more fascinating than I thought the discussion about the study was going to become, you know, vitamin D is one of those things that. It's falls into favor. It falls out of favor. It falls into favorite falls out [00:47:00] of favor. Um, I don't think but realize how critical it is.

[00:47:05] So we've learned a lot about vitamins and the microbiome, the microbiome selectively absorbs things. So it doesn't absorb things. Is there any component of the microbiome that we know can either make someone not absorb vitamin a.

[00:47:20] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:47:20] Um, it's an interesting question. I've thought about it, but we haven't figured out how to do the study.

[00:47:28] Um, since vitamin D is fat soluble to have bacteria in light of many together in an anaerobic environment. Um, couldn't get somebody excited enough. So if any of your listeners have a interest in this area it's wide open for research.

[00:47:49] Carl Lanore: [00:47:49] Yeah, we, we we've learned that about vitamin D. There is a, uh, there is a, um, A microbial dysbiosis, if you will.

[00:47:59] That, [00:48:00] uh, keeps people from absorbing, um, orally presented, uh, vitamin D and since they're fat soluble, I kind of feel like maybe there's, there's something to that. And I, I just don't know.

[00:48:11] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:48:11] Yeah. So what we discovered with vitamin E is you have to have fat or digestion. So pancreatic enzymes bile, those help vitamin E get into the intestinal cell.

[00:48:28] And then the intestinal cell has to package the vitamin E appropriately with other fat. And it takes probably eight to nine hours for the vitamin E to get out of the intestine into the circulation. So a lot of time and a lot of place that various things with vitamin E could be involved.

[00:48:52] Carl Lanore: [00:48:52] So. W I suffer from a nourish, a neutral emotional neuropathy.

[00:48:56] I have yet to be able to figure out, in fact, um, [00:49:00] Daniel, uh, Heran is going to be on he's with a wonderful company in the UK called clinic, no mix. And they do some very, very nice epigenome testing. And I just got my test results yesterday. I haven't had a chance to look at them, but I'm hoping that it gives me some peak.

[00:49:15] My sister was misdiagnosed with Parkinson's disease. I have the same problem, my sister and I, I just didn't get. I didn't fall into the hands of a well meaning, but misguided physician who put her on very powerful, uh, carbidopa levodopa. And that just destroyed her. I mean, her life, she she's gone now and it was all because of the treatment there wasn't cause I'm living proof.

[00:49:38] I've got it. Um, but I know it's a nutritional neuropathy, but I haven't been able to figure out yet. So, you know, I, when I do my show, I'm also, I'm also a viewer and I'm thinking, wow, what if vitamin E deficient? She's the reason I have this sensation on my hands. Like I'm wearing gloves. Could it be, and if it is, does [00:50:00] taking enough vitamin E to Saturday five, what I've been missing?

[00:50:04] Could it, could it possibly reverse it?

[00:50:08] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:50:08] Um, the short answer is maybe. And, um, so the symptoms in here humans were discovered in children who had fat malabsorption syndromes, a run SoCal in the early eighties was studying peripheral neuropathy with no known etiology basically means that the kids hands and feet.

[00:50:34] They would lose the ability to feel. And then. You can't stand if you can't feel where your feet are. And so the disorder is called ataxia with vitamin E deficiency. And basically what they found is that. Some of the people actually had a defect in the tocopherol transfer protein. And if you [00:51:00] eat a diet that's high in vitamin E right.

[00:51:03] You don't need that protein there's enough. That just randomly goes where it should be. That it's okay. But if you're eating a regular diet, like the rest of the members of your family, Those kids would end up with neurologic abnormalities. They would be, I mean, I saw one child that was in a wheelchair at age six because of this disease.

[00:51:30] And basically it becomes horrifying because you could do fine. If you ate a gram of vitamin E a day, and that's for somebody who has this specific genetic abnormality, there are other genetic abnormalities that were described where they have problems. Um, so they have no lipoproteins besides HDL. Those people need to eat 10 grams of vitamin E a day.

[00:52:00] [00:52:00] Wow. And you can stop. The neurologic abnormalities. One of the things that goes wrong is the eyes. It's a disorder called retinitis pigmentosa, where. The vitamin D is necessary to protect the retina. And basically it's an oxidative stress disorder. And so, I mean, one of the things that I thought was really interesting about the zebrafish work is that we're looking at systems that cause those sensory neurons to form.

[00:52:38] I mean, basically we're looking at STEM cells. Neurologic STEM cells that are forming outside the edges of the brain that become essentially all the organs in the whole zebrafish body. Right. So I'm back to my zebra fish, which is such a fantastic model, but, [00:53:00] um, yeah. Like I said, um, vitamin E my husband calls it my hobby.

[00:53:05] I think it's just fascinating. And I have few more things to learn about it, but we're, we're gonna, but when one last thing I'd like to close with. We took some of those zebrafish. I said 80% of them die or were male formed by five days, we've took the 20% that looked okay and said, okay, we're giving you good food now.

[00:53:32] And we're gonna see how you do then a week. Okay. A week later. So they would be essentially teenage kids now. We gave them a test to see how well they could essentially learn. They couldn't learn. They did not learn as well as their cohorts. So what I think is the most scary thing [00:54:00] about vitamin E deficiency and inadequate intakes.

[00:54:04] It is a critical window during development that you have to have it there. It's exactly the story we see with folic acid, that if you don't have it, you have these horrible defects that are happening during the formation of the baby. And I think the same thing is happening. We can see it in the zebrafish and now I'm hot on the trail of being able to do it.

[00:54:33] Exactly what happens.

[00:54:35] Carl Lanore: [00:54:35] Well, I'm going to buy after today's show. I have a source for bulk powder vitamins, and I'm going to buy, uh, a couple, a hundred grams of vitamin E and I'm going to start taking it daily for the next couple months and longer. I'm just going to start, I'm going to edit in and. I'm going to contact you maybe in a couple months and see if I notice, because I've [00:55:00] tried everything.

[00:55:01] I have an entire catalog of studies on nutritional neuropathies, and I've tried everything, but I've never thought about using vitamin E and I'm going to take K with it. I'm going to take high doses of me. I'm going to take, I'm going to take a K2, a complex, a K complex. Um, and I already take a couple of grams of vitamin C a day.

[00:55:24] So I'll just stick with that. I'm excited. I am probably more, yeah, excited about today's show and my listeners. So I really wanna appreciate it. Tell you how much I appreciate you coming on today.

[00:55:36] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:55:36] Well, it was very fun talking with you, Carl. Thank you for having me and letting me bubble about a mini

[00:55:44] Carl Lanore: [00:55:44] I'm going to be in touch.

[00:55:44] I have a funny feeling. I think that you're going to change some, some, some quandaries that I've been fighting with over here. Thank you so much. We'll talk again soon. Okay. I, we're going to take one quick commercial break. And when we come back, we'll have a dr. Danny from Chromebooks on many of you have been waiting [00:56:00] for your tests.

[00:56:01] Um, I have good news. They're being shipped. Some of you have already received them. I received mine. I haven't had a chance to go through it yet because I know I have to fill out a questionnaire before I get started. Um, but ah, dr. Seeds is going to be here too. Perfect. Dr. Seeds is walking through an airport, so let's just take this real quick commercial break and we'll be right back talking about chromic, stay tuned.

[00:56:25] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:56:25] This

[00:56:25] Carl Lanore: [00:56:25] is the superhuman channel doing reps with the weight of the world.

[00:56:35] all right. We're going to have to adjust some audio here. We have doctors. Precedes is walking through an airport, trying to make a flight. I'm assuming he's on his way out to California. And then we have a doctor herons, Danny out in the UK. Uh, dr. Seeds, can you, you hear me? Can you hear me?

[00:56:56] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:56:56] Yes, I can hear you.

[00:56:57] Carl Lanore: [00:56:57] Oh, great. Okay. Yeah. Your [00:57:00] tie bow tie matches your mask. That's pretty cool, man.

[00:57:05] So what airport are you in bill?

[00:57:09] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:57:09] Uh, where am I right now?

[00:57:13] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [00:57:13] Phoenix.

[00:57:14] Carl Lanore: [00:57:14] Okay. On his way out to the West coast. Okay. All right. So we have you both on the show because we had quite a few people.

[00:57:21] Maret Traber Ph.D: [00:57:21] I don't have any luggage. This is it.

[00:57:25] Carl Lanore: [00:57:25] Uh, we had quite a few people, uh, take advantage of the special offer, uh, that crunch comics offered my audience.

[00:57:32] And, um, it took a long time for people to get their kits. So first and foremost, let's address that turnaround Danny, because it happened right during COVID. And I know that played a role in this. What happened? Why did it take four months for people to get their results?

[00:57:48] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [00:57:48] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much.

[00:57:50] First of all, golfer for having us in this show again, thanks so much Stokes our seats also for making the effort to just speak from the airport. That's incredible. I know it's been not probably a very [00:58:00] long day. Um, so yeah, as you said, as you said, Kyle, I'm really glad to. Announced that all the epigenetic we sold, uh, have now been released and, uh, uh, hopefully everyone should receive their results.

[00:58:12] So if there are any issues with anyone, uh, please do let us know, and we'll be very fast that, uh, sorting them out. Um, um, before saying anything else, I also wanted to very sincerely apologize, uh, to those of you that were, uh, waiting longer than expected for receiving your epigenetic Stoltz. Uh, because side chronology is we, we always strive, uh, to, to give our users the best experience with our products.

[00:58:40] And, you know, this time as we will discuss in a second, it hasn't been the time. Uh, it hasn't been the case. Um, so, you know, we'll, we'll go into that in a second. Uh, and you know, I'm really happy that this is so, uh, sorted now and that hopefully you're old now and join your representative result. So, um, obviously acronym is we, we [00:59:00] hold.

[00:59:00] Tied our values as well. Uh, we like to be honest, we like to be transparent. We like to care on something, the individual as well. Uh, and that's why I wanted to, to go into the details of why, why this delay and, and be completely transparent with, with those of you that were waiting longer than expected,

[00:59:18] Carl Lanore: [00:59:18] right?

[00:59:18] Because you had been delivering results on these tests prior to this. How long did it normally take to turn around an epigenetic test before the, all of this catastrophe?

[00:59:29] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [00:59:29] Yeah. So before Kobe, the turnaround time was, uh, normally six to eight weeks. Um, and obviously some of the people, uh, have been waiting now longer than that.

[00:59:40] Um, not anymore. Uh, thankfully, uh, but yeah, as you mentioned, you know, COVID has been the main reason for this has been very challenging times, uh, for everyone, uh, both I guess, at the, at the company level, but also. Uh, at the personal level for some of us, um, [01:00:00] so, you know, difficult decisions need to be made.

[01:00:03] So for example, we went through a lockdown in the UK, which impacted our operations and our labs. Uh, and more importantly, we also had to repurpose a lot of our. Uh, testing resources from our labs to deal with this emergency. Uh, so among other things, we've been helping the UK government to scale up COVID-19 testing and, and this obviously impacted our, our processes on the epigenetic side of things.

[01:00:27] Um, and personally, as, as you know, Caitlyn, and as I told you, I want it to be here a couple of weeks ago, uh, to explain to people where, where we were with, uh, with the results. Uh, but unfortunately I got caught, I got copied myself. So it was, uh, I was 14. Yeah. Enough to fortunate enough to have relatively mild symptoms.

[01:00:48] I can tell you, it is definitely not a flute. So try to try to avoid it because it's no fun to go through it. I am very lucky that I'm young and apparently healthy enough to go [01:01:00] through it relatively quick. Um, but it's also, you know, I'm happy to share my personal experience through it if, if that is interesting as well.

[01:01:07] Yeah. Uh, but now we're here. Uh, you know, because we know that that epigenetics assumption we'll discuss in a second is now more important than ever. Uh, I've been personally pushing really hard to, to increase non with, uh, Napa with, for this. And we might've just to get it through at the end. And I also wanted to reassure everyone that, uh, for those of you that were affected by the delay, uh, that this has not affected at all your results.

[01:01:34] Uh, so your results will be a, saccharide a sever because when we basically sample you, we took a snapshot of, of your epigenome, uh, and you will get, uh, the latest, the latest results. Also with the latest improvements that we've been doing. Uh, you know, epigenetic biomarkers.

[01:01:51] Carl Lanore: [01:01:51] So 23 and me sends me. New information as they correlate jeez genes with diseases.

[01:02:00] [01:02:00] I get emails all the time from 23 and me saying, Hey, now you can see if you're prone to, and I don't know if Parkinson's disease. Do you want to know this? And then you say yes, and you can read it. So is that how. Chromebooks will be as well as, as you put together and connect dots on disease States and, and genetics and epigenetics.

[01:02:20] Will people get an email from Tom, Tom say, Hey, now we can tell you if you're prone to this, check it out.

[01:02:28] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:02:28] Yes, absolutely. Obviously we'll be looking at a slightly different things that praise positions as we've been discussing the past. So we're giving you an updated version of, of your health. Uh, with this a B genetic results, as you correctly pointed out, uh, you know, genetic testing companies, uh, you know, more just available, uh, because their role or data has been generated for, uh, for example, someone like you call it's already there as more knowledge is available, this insights and decided value can be made accessible [01:03:00] to those users.

[01:03:01] And we do the same economics. Um, so we are developing, uh, we keep developing novel epigenetics biomarkers. Uh, so now obviously for different reasons, uh, you know, partially driven by COVID, but also because of its important. Importance in the, in the aging process, we're really interested in the immune system, for example.

[01:03:20] Uh, so we are, we're working on developing a neoepitope, uh, that will quantifiable related immune system. And that would also make available to everyone, uh, that has taken acronym makes epidemic testy to date. Um, so yeah, obviously I'm really excited about it. Uh, maximizing the value. We can get it out of every single.

[01:03:44] Every single sample. And as we've discussed in the past, uh, I think it's also important to mention the type of data that has been generated. Right. Getting very excited about this. I really want people to understand this and appreciate what's happening behind the scenes. Uh, so as you know, we've generated, uh, [01:04:00] the most comprehensive snapshot of the human genome that can be generated to date.

[01:04:04] Uh, so we've measured more than 20 million epigenetic markers. Uh, and that means that, you know, the world data, those behind the scenes powering the biomarkers that we have now, but also the ones that will come very soon. Uh, you know, it's, it's super, super useful. Uh, and I see you said car more, more notice available and we keep advancing.

[01:04:24] Uh, the research, uh, also internally, uh, we'll be releasing all this new insights to our users.

[01:04:31] Carl Lanore: [01:04:31] Yeah. You want to add anything to that? Dr. Seeds?

[01:04:37] No. Well, if you can hear me, doctor dr. Sage, can you hear me? Okay. I guess he doesn't want to add anything to that. Um, what about the, uh, so, so Rigo Vargas was a big fan of the show. He's actually been on the show in February when I asked for people in the audience to talk about their blood flow restriction [01:05:00] training with the BFR bands.

[01:05:01] Um, he was a, um, he said maybe I missed understood the purpose of the test. I thought this test was going to analyze my genetics and give me detailed information. On what's going on inside my body, I was looking for specific recommendations. Like you shouldn't eat nuts. Red meat is bad for you. And so on.

[01:05:21] Um, is that something that we can determine from an epigenetic test? That what, what, what certain things that intersect lifestyle that will take a toll on us versus are beneficial to us?

[01:05:35] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:05:35] Yeah, absolutely. I think that, that's a great question. And I'm. First of all, I wanted to clarify again, a difference between genetic Sunapee genetics, because I think Viggo mentioned, uh, genetics, but obviously we look, uh, we focus more on epigenetics.

[01:05:49] Um, so with genetics cannot produce positions from birth, right? You're looking at your core genetic information that you were born with, you inherit from your parents, and that gives you a [01:06:00] certain price position too. Certain conditions or to react better to certain drugs or supplements, et cetera, et cetera.

[01:06:07] While we look at is epigenetics, which is an updated version off of that information. So essentially not. Uh, kind of like the core genes that you have started life with, but how those genes are being shaped on change their expression on their function, uh, overtime as you, you know, change your lifestyle as well.

[01:06:26] So there, there are key differences in that, and that's the reason why, you know, because we can take into account this lifestyle environment and how it's basically affecting your health over time, we can determine things like biological age to status, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so, but then. I think he raises a really good question around, uh, recommendations and, um, basically economics we offer, uh, very, I would say.

[01:06:52] Basic at the moment recommendations. Um, so obviously what is powering those recommendations is actually quite complex. So behind the [01:07:00] scenes, what is happening is that, uh, we are taking into account your epigenetic profile. I know. So, uh, some of the information that you're providing the questionnaire to essentially assess what are the main gaps or the big gains that you can have, uh, to try to impact your epigenetics, right?

[01:07:14] To try to impact, for example, your biological age, to try to impact your metabolic risk, et cetera, et cetera. But having said that. This is no easy task. Um, and I think, you know, other genetic testing companies, for example, have, uh, you know, make huge claims in terms of what is possible from DNA information.

[01:07:32] So there are companies out there that say, just by looking at your DNA, I can tell you how many grams of broccoli you should eat or things like that. Um, you know, there's just not enough scientific things, information on scientific knowledge today. To do those sorts of claims. So economics, we are very, as I said, honest, and you know, we are, and just to vote for them, we, you know, all the data we provide, we want it to be scientifically grounded.

[01:07:57] Um, so this is an area, uh, basically [01:08:00] improvement recommendations based on epigenetic information that we are working very hard on. Uh, and as I said, you know, our algorithms already are starting to recommend some things. Uh, but obviously, you know, they are picking up mainly, uh, stuff that, um, kind of confirms things that we know, right.

[01:08:15] Things.

[01:08:16] Carl Lanore: [01:08:16] Well, as you build, as you build your database of people and as those people contribute information through the diary that you asked them to fill out, I would imagine over the course of the next year or so, you'll start to send out, Hey, You know, you just may interest you, you, you may, they have a predisposition to this, or you can start making more recommendations as you're, as you're you can connect more points.

[01:08:41] Wouldn't that be true?

[01:08:44] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:08:44] Yeah, no, that's, that's absolutely true. Cause that's a, that's exactly what's happening right now as we speak. So, um, you know, the moment that, and this happens in real time, right? So we keep collecting a lot of data, uh, from our users and we keep collecting a lot of information about the types of [01:09:00] interventions that have worked in people in order to improve, uh, you know, there's different risk factors at the epigenetic level.

[01:09:06] So we're starting to see people. For example, going through different types of diets or different types of, uh, you know, exercise regimes or civic on the aging programs. And we are collecting data both before and after they go through that's right. So that is solid objective science  of the stuff that is working at the molecular level to improve your health.

[01:09:29] Uh, so we feed back that back that information for this, uh, recommendation algorithms. Uh, so everything that we provide has a solid scientific basis that we've observed, uh, you know, some effect at the molecular level. And that's why, you know, I know that people are expecting to find the, the, you know, the oldest solutions very soon, but we also like to be.

[01:09:52] You know, honest about the way that we work and in terms of the quality of the data and the science, the robustness of the [01:10:00] data that we provide. But having said that, I think it's very exciting times because we're, we're starting to see a strong signatures of, um, you know, for example, specific types of exercise at the epigenetic level.

[01:10:10] Um, and the good thing about the way that we work is that, uh, you know, you don't have to wait one, two, five, 10 years until this insights. You know, have been like published and then peer review and then et cetera, et cetera, as soon as we trust them and we have validated them, we, he fucks us in real time to what our users, uh, for them to benefit from them.

[01:10:30] So as you said, correctly, go, uh, you know, all the users can, uh, kind of spec that over time. Uh, this recommendations we'll, we'll come up with potentially sort of pricing things as well as we. As we validated more on the interventions.

[01:10:44] Carl Lanore: [01:10:44] So dr. Seeds, do you think it's better for a person to use this test in conjunction with, uh, the interpretation of a physician and maybe even, uh, a regular DNA test to coincide with it?

[01:10:59] What do you [01:11:00] think?

[01:11:03] Um,

[01:11:04] Maret Traber Ph.D: [01:11:04] I think Carl that the, um, it, unless there. As far as the real DNA test, I don't. Thanks. So, I mean, it's not going to change anything, anything that's going to be done to try to reverse the epigenome. Um, I think it can be useful information. There are people, if you have inheritable problems or, you know, past history type of changes that that may be significant or things you're looking for.

[01:11:28] But I think the biggest thing with this testing is people, you know, people who think they're healthy and who think that they, they they're living the right lifestyle. They may realize that, uh, their biological clock is telling them that they need to make some changes. And this is a way, you know, just like we've talked about this, it's the beginning of starting to look at things a little differently, focusing on things that you can change to try to change this epigenome in, [01:12:00] and just with a biological clock by itself, it's a tremendous amount of information to give somebody.

[01:12:06] And there are a lot of ways to work on that, you know, to, to try to improve that. And that's working through diet, it's working through exercise. I think it's giving you indications that maybe some of the things you think you're doing correctly and that are traditionally the things we look at are not working.

[01:12:24] And, and that makes sense to me.

[01:12:27] Carl Lanore: [01:12:27] So,

[01:12:28] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:12:28] yeah, I think I didn't quickly quickly to that. Um, I think, you know, dr. Sits makes a very strong point around people, you know, are, or we try to get very obsessed with like predicting what's going to work. Right. So, okay. Take a test and tell me what I should do, but the reality is that doing that is actually quite difficult, but what we can do is to measure what is working.

[01:12:51] So, you know, if you take a test now, Uh, we might be able to tell you searching things, but then you will go on the, those things plus [01:13:00] potentially other things that you think are gonna work right. And by taking a second test, then you're gonna basically get empirical evidence and objective evidence, micro level of whether that has worked or not.

[01:13:11] And what we are currently providing as of today with granola mix is with the most accurate biomarkers for the main risk factors for disease. So things like biological age. A few years ago, it was completely unthinkable that we could quantify the aging processing human cell wall accurately. And now we have a way into basically an, a test to basically go and say, well, you know, you're trying all these different things because you know, acting on agent, it's not something it's, it's not something that you're going to solve with one little change.

[01:13:39] It's going to require a whole range of, of different types of things they need to implement in your. In your life and potentially also in the future with, with some drugs as well. Um, but we have a way to objectively measure if it has worked for you. So if we, if you've changed your diet, if you've changed your exercise, if you're trying some specific supplements or new drugs, you, you are able to see [01:14:00] if it's working or not.

[01:14:01] Uh, when you take a second test. And

[01:14:03] Carl Lanore: [01:14:03] so, so rarely, so really, so really the real value. And I'll give you your time back. I feel like a politician. I'll give you your time back in a moment. If the real value then of this test is it's a more, a more precise way to gauge biological age and in and of itself that tells you what you need to know, but it doesn't give you the guidance.

[01:14:26] On how to fix it. You have to kind of put that together. Yourself. Rigo Vargas is saying if my results showed the markers that contribute to my biological age, being higher than my chronological age, how do I find out what those markers are? And then obviously by learning what those markers are, then you can go, Oh, I need to start doing this better or eat more fish for something like that.

[01:14:49] What do you think.

[01:14:50] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:14:50] That's right? Yeah, no, that's a, that's a fantastic question. Uh, Rigo, thanks so much. Um, so the good thing about the data we've generated. So that is the fact that, [01:15:00] you know, we have information around specific epigenetic marks, millions of them. In a specific parts of your DNA, right?

[01:15:07] Whether they are close to certain genes, for example, genes that are involved in metabolic pathways are genes that are involved in detoxifying, a specific chemicals. We know that, and we are seeing, and epigenetic changes in the regulation of those specific genes. So we have a lot of information behind the scenes that maybe when you originally access the product you don't appreciate because you see.

[01:15:27] You know, big numbers in terms of like your main risk factors, but we actually have that gene of specific information and all of this. So we are indeed able to go and say, well for Regal, sorry, this specific epigenetic marks, uh, that normally changed during the aging process and that in his case are up or down when compared with the average person, uh, for, for that age.

[01:15:50] And we provide with some of that information in, in a. You know, part of the product that we called a chromosome agent, where you can essentially visualize the [01:16:00] specific bits in your, in your different chromosomes for which are younger or older. Uh, but behind the scenes, this information is also what's power in this recommendation algorithms that, uh, that I'm telling you how, uh, so you know, what we do is that we take that information and we maximize the amount of predictive capability that we can get.

[01:16:20] Uh, to the state. So, um, and also I think it's important to mention there are many people out there that love to serve through their world data, uh, and access kind of like what's happening behind the scenes. Uh, and if we go, if you are interested, this is something also that we can provide you, uh, just access to, to your core epigenetic information.

[01:16:38] So you can expend. Hours and hours, uh, basically learning more about, about this.

[01:16:43] Carl Lanore: [01:16:43] So he gets, so there's an it's called, uh, epigenetic aging. Did you say that's the area of the website where you can understand why you were given that

[01:16:54] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:16:54] chromosome agent chromosome as an entire? Okay. All right. A sec.

[01:16:57] Carl Lanore: [01:16:57] So he can log into that and he can see [01:17:00] why he was viewed as being older than he really is.

[01:17:03] I'm assuming that. Is what he's saying here. So he can log into that. He could see the raw data, then

[01:17:11] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:17:11] you can see part of the, yeah. Part of that data. And then if he seems interested in, um, in learning more about it, then we can provide with, with fiber information as well.

[01:17:20] Carl Lanore: [01:17:20] Okay. So he says, I see CHR one through CHR 22, but he really doesn't know what that means.

[01:17:27] What. Uh, again, does he need the help of an expert to help interpret this? Perhaps his physician?

[01:17:36] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:17:36] Yeah. That's again, uh, Rigo, I'm really happy to, um, have a conversation basically with you. So we've actually, um, I, I don't think we've, we've said that yet, but we have, when we send the email to those people, uh, that were watching the show, when I read civvie now the results, um, we're also offering, uh, Basically a complimentary call, uh, with, with [01:18:00] myself to go deeper into this insights.

[01:18:01] So obviously, you know, different people have different levels of wanting to go deep into this. So if we go, if you want to, um, you know, learn more about, uh, you know, this is specific bits, uh, how they're changing with this age, uh, we can go into more details into what a chromosome one means, chromosome 22 means.

[01:18:20] Uh, and if you're farter interested in that, we can even start to look at. Uh, jeans and, and, and things like that. So I'll be very happy to, if you want to do a call with me, I'll be delighted to discuss this with you.

[01:18:33] Carl Lanore: [01:18:33] That's great. Um, so in summary, people are getting their results. Now, do you have to fill out the questionnaire, the diary in order to view your results?

[01:18:46] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:18:46] Yeah. So the normal flow is that people, uh, you know, uh, input the information in the questionnaire. And I want to make it very clear that this does not impact at all. That we sold from, from the epigenetics or [01:19:00] the biomarkers. So your biological age, your metabolic status, your alcohol, uh, footprint, uh, et cetera, et cetera, they all are only based on the DNA from your saliva samples.

[01:19:11] So they are completely independent from the questionnaire information, the reason why,

[01:19:14] Carl Lanore: [01:19:14] but does, but does that does completing the questionnaire help give you more precise and valuable direction? See what I'm thinking is. I didn't. I looked at that and I didn't look at the questionnaire. I didn't fill out the questionnaire.

[01:19:27] I thought I'll just do this this weekend. When I have time, some people may bypass that and just go look at their results. And they won't be a lot of recommendations because there's not a lot of information about you, what you do and so on. So filling out that questionnaire completely and thoroughly, uh, probably plays a large role in what it tells you, you can do to help yourself.

[01:19:47] Am I, am I correct about that?

[01:19:50] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:19:50] That's absolutely correct. Because, so what the questionnaire does is that it power. So there are aspects of the product. So for example, the recommendations that we were talking about, uh, we're still not able to, [01:20:00] only from your DNA, you know, tell you you're doing 33 minutes of vigorous exercise, right.

[01:20:06] So if we have that information reported from you. Um, then we are able to power where other aspects like this recommendation algorithms that, that combine epigenetics with, with, uh, self-reported information, for example. Uh, but having, having said that, you know, we really encourage people to take the question or to, to maximize, um, you know, the value that you get out of the product.

[01:20:28] Carl Lanore: [01:20:28] Dr. Seeds. Do you want to add anything to that? I can't see facial expressions. Okay.

[01:20:35] Maret Traber Ph.D: [01:20:35] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, I would be, I'll be happy to sit in with Danny on those calls and help people with Danny, uh, as we go through this so that they get it, you know, Rico, all these people will be happy to help you and direct you in the right way.

[01:20:53] I think they'll get a lot out of it.

[01:20:55] Carl Lanore: [01:20:55] And how, how should they reach out, Danny? How can they get in touch with you [01:21:00] through the website?

[01:21:02] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:21:02] Yeah. So I believe at the moment they should have received an email where there is a link to directly book, uh, calls in my calendar. Um, and obviously, yeah, I'm more than happy to half of course look their seats, uh, uh, also giving more the kind of clinical doctor view because obviously my, um, my research has been more on the, on the epigenetic side of things.

[01:21:26] Uh, so I think it would be, it would be fantastic to have you as well. Dr. .

[01:21:31] Carl Lanore: [01:21:31] Yeah, jump on that. Reach out. If you got the, if you got the email from granola mix, there's a link there. If you want to discuss your a and you need some expert advice. I remember seeing that now that you talk about it, uh, just get on their calendar and let them walk you through this.

[01:21:46] What's the website. People should be going to a doctor, see that people want to get a chronometer test of their own.

[01:21:58] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:21:58] I

[01:21:58] Maret Traber Ph.D: [01:21:58] think it's now through [01:22:00] Cornell mix. I don't, I don't think we have that through, through your S through your,

[01:22:04] Carl Lanore: [01:22:04] uh, right. So  dot com, right? C H R O N O M I C s.com. Is that right, Danny?

[01:22:13] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:22:13] Yeah, that's right. And you can also reach outside info. I'd predominance.com. Uh, so we'll, we'll have a team to help you there.

[01:22:20] If you have any. Any specific questions you said you were going to give me one minute. Maybe I'm going to make a little announcement for those of you that, uh, that bought the chronometer test, uh, through the show. Uh, so we've already discussed the complimentary goals for those of you that want to dive deeper into your epigenetic results would be their light too, too.

[01:22:42] I'll be delighted to speak with you. And, um, And so there's some of those specific questions and take all the feedback, which I'm sure you will have about things that you would like to see there in the product, in the future. Uh, but also, um, we've been discussing how important it is to track over time, epigenetics on how you get the, you know, [01:23:00] the final value of the product is in taking a test, doing something that changes your, your lifestyle, hopefully in the right direction.

[01:23:07] And then measuring again to, to be certain. Uh, that, you know, you're heading in the right direction. And as we've discussed in the past, uh, building your digital, so twin and, um, yeah. You know, we want to, for those of, uh, of those of you that, uh, already, uh, bought the first test, uh, with this, uh, originally one of the discounts that we offer in the past episodes, uh, we want to offer you, uh, the same discount for the second test, uh, because we want to help you to go through that.

[01:23:35] Uh, epigenetic journey. And I want to make it very clear that this is incredibly exclusive pricing. Uh, so, you know, I think it's, it's a fantastic opportunity. Um, you know, that no one else is currently benefiting from, uh, and you know, just because you guys, uh, it's been amazing to be here in the, in the superhuman radio podcast.

[01:23:56] And, um, because I know also that these people are really, really your, [01:24:00] to, uh, you know, to, to keep them going in this, uh, it's genetic testing. Um, journey. We want to also for that from mix. So, um, if you're interested in that second test, uh, just reach out to us and say, uh, basically they were, I'm sure you will have that information, but also say that, you know, you were, you were watching the, uh, the show and that you, you would like to take the second test and, uh, our team will be able to help you with that.

[01:24:25] Carl Lanore: [01:24:25] I'm afraid to open mine bill. I think it's going to say I'm 85.

[01:24:33] All right. He's getting out of the car. So I think that's pretty much, yeah, he's laughing. It's I'd rather be where you are today than where I am. Uh, so, uh, the, the website is  dot com, C H R O N M I C s.com. And, uh, he Rigo says I'm booking a session now. And I have my girlfriend whom I bought a test for doing the same.

[01:24:54] Yeah, there you go. And I, and, and, and really the real value of this test is that [01:25:00] biological age. And it's a more precise, nice way to give you a real, truly effective rate for your biological age. And then you've got to change things. For me, I got to sit less, you know, I sit for hours and I'm going to, you get a standing desk very shortly that I can do the show from as I'm building a new studio.

[01:25:18] And the first thing I'm putting in as a standing desk, but that's it go to chronometer.com. Book a call if you have already gotten a test. And also if you've already gotten the test, take advantage of this special pricing, because. Buying a test, take testing, vitamin D levels, for instance, and then supplementing and not testing again.

[01:25:38] It's useless. You don't know. Did it work? Did you take enough? Are you taking too much? So, you know, these tests are designed to you take snapshots at different points in your life so that you can see what you're doing and how affecting you and you know, the things that you're doing that aren't good for you, you know them.

[01:25:56] You know, maybe you're a highly restrictive diet because your [01:26:00] kedo isn't really good for you just because it's, you know, it's the modern diet today that everybody loves. Maybe it doesn't work for you, maybe just because you lost a bunch of weight on it, or you feel really strong, it's aging you faster. So, you know, a lot of us know the things that we need to change and when we change them, then we test again and we go, Oh, that worked or no, that didn't work.

[01:26:21] I got worse. I got to do the opposite now. So I, I understand. And then as you gather more data, there'll be a lot more information available to users as well. And they'll get access to that as time goes on. It's wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for being here today, dr. Seeds, I know you're a world traveler and you're in between flights and hopefully you're staying in Phoenix today and relaxing a little bit.

[01:26:45] Do you have a seminar there? Is that what it is? Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Ah, okay. And that's it for today. Thanks again, Danny, for coming on and talking about

[01:26:59] Dr. Daniel Elias Martin Herranz: [01:26:59] thanks so much [01:27:00] for having me, Kyle. Thanks

[01:27:01] Carl Lanore: [01:27:01] everyone. See you soon. We're going to, we're going to call it a day and say thank you to everybody.

[01:27:07] And we'll see you tomorrow with more superhuman radio, take care.