[00:00:00] Carl Lanore: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to another episode of superhuman radio. Today is January 27th, 2021, and we're going to be rejoined by one of my favorite guests and actually a guy who was on some of my earliest shows. I want to say back in 2006, uh, before he was a PhD, uh, and before he became so popular, Uh, in the, uh, physical culture and, and, uh, nutritional community.

[00:00:25] Yeah. Uh, I, I was the first guy, I think, on the podcast to call him Dr. Lane Norton, because the first time he was on the show, he didn't have his PhD and he had, um, been part of, uh, uh, Don layman's group up in, uh, Uh, university of Illinois and they did a fantastic study comparing a variety of different proteins and which produced the greatest, uh, protein, synthetic response and muscle.

[00:00:47] And then the next time I had them on, I had a column Dr. Lane Norton because he had his PhD. Um, but he's a guy who, uh, I have a lot of, um, uh, admiration for and respect for because, um, [00:01:00] love him or hate him. He walks the walk. You, you can't say anything bad about this guy? Cause he walks the walk. He's the real thing.

[00:01:06] So we're going to be joined by him in just a moment. Of course, first I have to thank all title sponsor, legendary foods, this new, uh, Tasty pastry. Doesn't it's not like a pop tart. It's more like an Apple turnover and it's a birthday cake flavor. It's amazing. It's flaky. 20 grams of high leucine protein, zero sugar.

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[00:01:46] We are given boxes away. People are very excited. Uh, the odds are good of, uh, of, of winning a box. So take advantage of that. And then this Friday, the return of casual Friday after four years, at least the Profumo is joining me again. Uh, [00:02:00] and we're going to kick off casual Friday again, which is always fun where we get to poke fun and have strong opinions about stupid stuff in the news.

[00:02:08] And, uh, of course I always do my best to try to be funny. Uh, it doesn't always work out that way. But without further delay, let me bring my, my guest on. And that is none other, I'm going to call him Dr. Lane Norton. I know he doesn't, he doesn't get called doctor too much, uh, on his channel. Uh, but how you doing, man?

[00:02:27] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:02:27] I'm great. How are you? It's been a, it's been a hot man. I think it's probably been what, like eight years since I've been on the show. The

[00:02:35] Carl Lanore: [00:02:35] last show we did was reverse dieting. When you were doing the whole

[00:02:38] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:02:38] reverse guy,

[00:02:39] Carl Lanore: [00:02:39] like five or six? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But you were one of my first guests early on in 2006.

[00:02:44] I want to say, when did you get your PhD? Was that 2007, 2010. Oh, wait a minute. Okay. Well, I remember I had, when did you publish this study about comparing a whey and soy and other proteins to, [00:03:00] for the protein synthetic response? When was that study published? Yeah.

[00:03:03] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:03:03] So we've published, uh, two separate studies that were looking at that.

[00:03:09] Very question. One was a shorter term study. Long one was the longer term study, but the shorter term I think, was published in 2012. I want to say it was when that was, was published. I could have

[00:03:18] Carl Lanore: [00:03:18] joined early on that I could have

[00:03:20] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:03:20] sworn. We had the data back in like 2009, late 2009. So I probably came on and talked about it.

[00:03:29] Um, and then it just takes a long time to publish. So, um, yeah, just for a new grad students or those who want to go to grad school, just to give you an idea, you better get used to delayed gratification because that's what it's all about. And grad

[00:03:43] Carl Lanore: [00:03:43] school be patient be patient. Now I have to play this video first.

[00:03:48] So you've had some injuries. You've had some setbacks talk about your injuries real quick, then you like a blow out a disc in your back or something

[00:03:55] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:03:55] like that. I mean, I've had a few, um, if I go through the list, I guess, [00:04:00] um, when I was 20, I had two herniated disc in my neck for rugby. And then I tore my right pectoral completely, uh, inside the muscle.

[00:04:10] So it was actually a very complicated surgery. I was fortunate to have, uh, a really great surgeon named Michael Corcoran. I can give him a shout out in Illinois. Um, and he was able to actually repair that. That's a very difficult, uh, muscle tear to repair because basically I tried to sew hamburger back together.

[00:04:25] Um, but that was in 2008, that took me a full 18 months to get back to full street strength, uh, pressing strength. And then. Um, I would say my first, like low, serious, low back injury would have been 2015, uh, right before the Arnold classic, the pro pro Arnold meet for the USA APL. Um, I, I, it was my last heavy training session and I remembered.

[00:04:50] Um, I squatted felt fine, but then go on bench in my lower back, started to kind of tighten up a little bit. And then I went ahead and finished with deadlifts. Cause I was like, Oh, I'm just a little tight, whatever. [00:05:00] And then the next day I could hardly like stand up. Right. Um, and that was probably, yeah. I mean, I didn't go get an MRI immediately or anything, but that's probably where I bulged or herniated it originally.

[00:05:10] Um, Now, fortunately I was able to get a low enough pain level to compete that next week and actually won. Um, but on my, on my, uh, six 61 squat attempt, um, I actually like came up a little bit, um, sideways and I actually that's when I probably herniated another disc in my back. And so those injuries kind of dogged me on and off, especially getting ready for worlds that year.

[00:05:37] Um, I actually had to stop squatting and deadlifting about 10 weeks out from worlds for about a four week period, which was very intimidating to not be able to do those lifts. Um, And then fortunately got well enough to get an air in and build some confidence and then eventually like set the world record at the time and get a gold medal and squat and all that good stuff.

[00:05:58] Um, and then after that, uh, [00:06:00] in 2000 early, 2016, I was, um, I had qualified for worlds. Again, I was getting ready for the Arnold and spring and, uh, I was actually on vacation in the Florida keys and I was doing a squat session down there. And I like on one of the reps, I felt like. Like, uh, I don't know. It's hard to describe it.

[00:06:18] Like my hip, my left hip got hot and felt numb. And of course, stupidly tried to plow through that as well, and then continued to try to plow through it. And now knowing what I know about pain and pain research and whatnot, it's really disappointing because if I'd known, then what I know now, I probably would be able to get well enough to go compete at worlds.

[00:06:38] Um, As it was, I kept doing the wrong things and had to pull out because of that hip injury rehab, that back was getting ready, uh, to compete again in tooth that late 2016. And then I hurt my back again, had that, um, rehab that back. And then in 2018 I had the worst back injury. And I don't know if, I [00:07:00] don't think these were like separate herniations or anything like that.

[00:07:02] I think I was just really aggravating the same thing. Right. Um, and so that one was so bad. Uh, that was in December of 2008, 2017, sorry. December of 2017. That was so bad. I couldn't even get off the floor for about a 24 hour period. Like my, my wife or she was my girlfriend at the time my wife had to like help me, like out of bed to go to the bathroom.

[00:07:27] That's how bad it was. It was bad. Um, but the rehab that came back and have been largely helped healthy ever since, other than some. Some various like thinks and dunks and whatnot. I actually made a post the other day about this. I've been dealing with like a nagging hip thing. That's getting much better.

[00:07:45] Um, but it's really funny because very few people talk about injuries, especially in the lifting. And I know why this is, I think one, everybody loves to show the highlights. They don't want to show the bad stuff. And, uh, two, you get injury [00:08:00] shamed, which is a real thing. So it's like no knew whenever you get injured.

[00:08:04] It's like people want to, it's kind of like, I think they're trying to justify in their mind why it's not

[00:08:09] Carl Lanore: [00:08:09] yeah. Why they don't do it. Yeah. Why they don't, why don't they, they don't push their body to see how far it can go.

[00:08:15] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:08:15] Right. Or it's well, look, the bar was dipping lower on this side or, Oh, your technique was terrible.

[00:08:21] You know, this was bad. Or, you know, and actually when you look at the evidence-based stuff, the research shows that like, actually, if you're somebody who is, um, Like who believes that they need like really great technique or perfect technique. You actually, there's actually higher rates of injury amongst people who have that belief.

[00:08:39] Whereas if you, if you, this is getting into the whole bio-psycho-social model of pain and I'm not an expert in that, but I've listened to a lot of experts on it. Um, you need to visualize yourself as resilient. And, uh, you know, we used to think that, you know, your body was. Just a bag of meat connected to your brain.

[00:08:59] If you burn [00:09:00] the bag or poke the bag or punch the bag, you know, your brain says, Oh, that hurts. And now we know that that's not really how it works. Um, in fact, you can have tissue damage and no pain, and then you can have pain and no tissue damage. So we do see that. So anyways, um, you know, You get these people who injury shame you and just kind of like tell you why it's almost like why you deserve to get injured.

[00:09:24] I had that too. And so I, you know, the reality is like, listen, if you play any sport long enough and push it to the extreme, you are going to deal with injuries. I mean, I don't want to say every person because I can't make that claim. But I think the vast majority of athletes even like, look at golf, you know, you would, you would sell well, it's golf, you know, look at all the surgeries tiger woods has had look at how messed up his back has gotten.

[00:09:51] Carl Lanore: [00:09:51] They all, they all end up. People don't realize this, but every golfer, serious golfer ends up with side to side scoliosis. And that's no, that's no bargain to grow old.

[00:10:01] [00:10:00] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:10:01] Right. So, you know, it's, it's, if you're going to compete. Uh, I'll never forget what my, what my, um, the surgeon who did my pec tear, um, surgery said, because I asked him, you know, how do I avoid this happening again?

[00:10:17] And he looked at me and he said, uh, don't get out of bed. You know, just stay in bed. Like I had a receiver, uh, cause he was the surgeon for the Chicago bears. He said we had a receiver who tore his bicep, just reaching out for past, you know, like that's all I did. So I think like, People don't want to accept that there's randomness to the universe and that not everything is in their control.

[00:10:40] And so I think that by, by trying to find an explanation as to why someone got injured, It, it,

[00:10:48] Carl Lanore: [00:10:48] it makes it, it can be, I can avoid it now if I understand why it happened. I know. And it's funny. That's why we follow the weather because the weather is been our arch nemesis at the beginning of that time. And [00:11:00] we would love to be able to control the weather.

[00:11:01] That's our, you know, we want to do that so badly. So this video I have here, this was a recent poll. This was a recent deadlift match. What did you just recently do?

[00:11:11] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:11:11] You competed, uh, uh, in 2019. Yeah. So I did, um, raw nationals, uh, and it was my final poll was 70, 27. So that's

[00:11:20] Carl Lanore: [00:11:20] this right here. I love it. Let's watch.

[00:12:13] [00:12:00] what are you listening to in their headphones right before you buy, why are you laughing? Do you get, when you look at yourself? Yeah. Yeah, it's just

[00:12:20] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:12:20] so helpful for me. People think I'm like real angry or whatnot, but that's actually like be having a lot of fun. Like that's actually really fun for me to get that, to get the, you know, it's funny when I was in high school and I played baseball, I can remember this.

[00:12:36] I used to try to suppress the feeling of being nervous and like, you know, try to push those butterflies away. Cause I felt like that was wrong. And. The total mind shift I had that made such a huge difference in how I perform. If you talk to people in the powerlifting community, one of the compliments I'll get is I think it was Matt, Gary.

[00:12:57] He's the head of the USA APL coaching committee. [00:13:00] He said, when Les Norton shows up, you know, you're going to get eight point late Norton. You're not, you can't rely, you can't count on him to miss a lift because he's going to hit his lifts. Um, and part of that is just, I get nervous like anybody else, but I now perceive that as a good thing.

[00:13:15] You know, like that's, that is just an external reflection of like anxiousness and nervousness. But now it's like, when I feel those nerves, when I feel those butterflies, it's a good thing. And I remember when I had that shift and I was watching the ultimate fighter, I think it was season there's a season where Matt Serra was coaching against Matt Hughes.

[00:13:36] All right.

[00:13:37] Carl Lanore: [00:13:37] The, I love Matt Hughes too. Yeah.

[00:13:39] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:13:39] Yeah. What about Sarah's fighters was like getting violently ill before a fight. Um, like throwing up. Cause he was so nervous and he's, I never forget this. He's like leaned over the bucket and he's like, I can't, I can't do this anymore. I can't do like, I can't, I hate this feeling and that's our look right at him and said, what are you talking about, man?

[00:13:57] That's the feeling of being alive? [00:14:00] And I'll never forget that. I remember. So whenever I felt those butterflies, now I say, that's the feeling of being alive because you care about something so much. You're that passionate about it. It makes you feel you, it makes you feel that way. Um, so yeah, when I'm listening to my headphones actually will surprise.

[00:14:15] I think most people, um, I really love big. Epic emotional music. Right? So like that's instrumental when I was listening to it was actually, um, it's actually the theme from a video game called mass effect two, uh, which is there's. Um, the end of the game it's called the song was called suicide mission. And, uh, it's, I mean, it's very Epic song, so that's what I'm listening to.

[00:14:41] I mean, I listen to metal and that kind of stuff too, but I love big Epic music.

[00:14:45] Carl Lanore: [00:14:45] It's really funny. There are plenty of studies out there that show disinhibition is required for extreme strength displays that that strength displays from a kind of like a social construct. We're not supposed to [00:15:00] display strength, you know, w we we're supposed to be modest.

[00:15:03] And, and so. Vocal disinhibition is one of the first triggers of disinhibition. And the fact that you're yelling, you don't care what anybody thinks. It's like, it actually makes you stronger. People don't understand that people think that that's theatrical. That's not, it's actually effective. It's

[00:15:20] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:15:20] amazing.

[00:15:21] Yeah. There's actually like scientific research. Like the one, if you want to lift or weight, there's a few things you can do. Uh, one is yell or, or at least like vocally express yourself. Right. Um, listen to music. That's another thing that increases strength and also, um, have the opposite sex present or have people in general present.

[00:15:43] Like that's people look at it like Vanderbilt, but Hey, it, I mean, that just, it is what it is. I mean, there's a reason that, you know, Like I tell people I don't get like, that fired up in the gym. Like some, every once in a while I'll get pretty fired up, you know, if I'm going for a big lift, but, um, [00:16:00] you know, it's also like a little bit of pressure because.

[00:16:02] It's like, you know, people are looking at you, so if you don't hit it, you're going to lose. It was really dumb.

[00:16:09] Well, yeah, I mean, now, you know, people are individuals, we're talking about data on average, right? Uh, there are some people like that are very introverted, you know, that sort of thing. If, if you made them lift like that, um, that might actually they're able to get there, you know, internally. Um, a guy I can think of, you know, that, that kind of looks like he's about to take a nap when he walks up to the bar is Mike to share who's a multiple time a USAP all champion.

[00:16:37] Um, yeah, he looks like he's just going out for a stroll about the most fired up. I've seen him get as he clapped his hands once before lift. Um, but you know, if he, we, we had this conversation, I said, you know, if you try to lift like me, you would lift less weight. And if I tried to lift like you, I would definitely list lift less weight.

[00:16:56] I mean, I get so much out of that kind of psycho. [00:17:00] Like, I mean, I really do. It's almost like unfair to be honest. I mean, I, you can ask, um, my friend Paul Ravello, who used to train with me all the time and he'd say, you know, every, like so many, so many times I've seen you like grind out 500 pound warmup on a squat, you know, your final, like warm-up set at for a single right.

[00:17:20] And then you'll go crush like five 60 for seven reps. He's like, and it just doesn't make any sense. And I'm like, no, it does make sense. One. I was just. Doing the lift and the other one was life or death. You know what I mean? At least in my mind,

[00:17:33] Carl Lanore: [00:17:33] you know? No, no, no. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.

[00:17:36] Uh, we're going to talk about diet today because I think you're one of the sanest people on the planet when it comes to diet. Right? So a lot. Well, no, no, I know. Look, I know that you're in your face kind of guy and tough love kind of guy, but the reality is you're, you're a person who says, look, man, eat what you want.

[00:17:54] With it within, within reason, you can still lose weight. If you do [00:18:00] certain things and most diet gurus in the world say. When asked what's the best diet. They'll, they'll say the one that someone will stick with the longest, because let's face it. Consistency is really the magic and diet, not necessarily the food that you're eating and you're one of the guys that's continually, like you didn't hop on the carnival bandwagon.

[00:18:22] You really didn't hop on the kettle band where you were going to plug your app. And I know that your app works with all of those, but you've been a flexible diet guy for, for your entire career. Right?

[00:18:33] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:18:33] Yeah. I mean, I would say I was on the clean eating side of flexible dieting when I first started, but I mean, so when I, when I first started bodybuilding, I mean, I read the bodybuilding magazines like anybody.

[00:18:44] Right. And, um, you know, but I couldn't afford to get like, I was in college. I couldn't afford to get like fresh caught organic salmon, you know, and all this kind of stuff. It's so funny. I feel like now looking back, these guys probably didn't eat that either. Or a lot of them probably didn't eat [00:19:00] that. It's just, they wanted to find a way to come up with the cleanest diet possible to explain to people that yeah.

[00:19:06] No, it's not the two grams of test a week I've taken. It's the, it's the, you know, it's the fresh caught organic salmon. Uh, but you know, they would leave the macros at the end of the, you know, at the end of the diet, these guys would follow, well, I can't go get some of those foods, but I can hit those macros.

[00:19:22] And so I started doing that and that's kinda how that started. Um, but you know, what's funny is, you know, people, I think a lot of the diet Zella TISM. Comes from a good place in so far as people have something that worked for them. Right. And because we view everything through our own prism and this gets into politics too, because this is part of the reason the country is so divided.

[00:19:47] Right. We don't, we can't understand how that wouldn't work for somebody else. Right. We can't understand how somebody else wouldn't be. Wouldn't think like us. Right. So if you have, you know, for me, flexible dieting worked for me. Like for, for [00:20:00] me, I used to try to eat clean. Um, and what would happen is when I exposed myself to a non clean food, right?

[00:20:06] So like my roommates bring home pizza or something like that. I couldn't just have one slice. If I ate it, I would just end up like eating as much as I possibly could. Right. And that's actually called a dis-inhibition reflex, um, in the scientific literature. Whereas when I said, you know what, I'm going to stop worrying so much about trying to be clean.

[00:20:25] And I'm just going to focus on hitting my macros. And if that means I have a non clean food every once in a while. Well, the funny thing is I actually probably ate less junk food because I allowed myself to do that because I wasn't having these huge blowout binges. And it was funny years ago, I was going to debate a guy about flexible dieting versus clean eating.

[00:20:44] Um, and the, my opening argument, I w I had screenshots from his Facebook of his weekly cheat meal. And I, I would say, you know, you think you said clean eating is better than what I do. Here's how much junk food I eat a week. Here's how much [00:21:00] junk food you eat and your cheat meal. You actually get more calories from the joke food you eat than I do.

[00:21:06] So how do you explain that? So somehow that one day doesn't matter or, you know, whatnot. So. I for me, if you tell, if you tell me, you know, you can have the foods you want, as long as you're fitting it within your budget, you know, allowance, I wouldn't have any problems with compliance. It's easy for me. It actually is like to get to get super shredded is difficult because it's difficult for everybody.

[00:21:31] Um, but my wife even commented, like when I, uh, this, um, last, um, November, I did kind of a, we call it a shred with lane, um, promotion, because I hadn't done like an actual physique photo shoot in a long time. And we were like, you know what? We could use some new images. So I got pretty darn lean. And, uh, my wife even commented.

[00:21:50] She's like, you know, it's disgusting to me how easy this was for you. That you didn't even really complain about the diet. You know, I got a little like irritable near the end, um, [00:22:00] in my, a little bit of brain fog, but I wasn't like ever like, Oh my God, I miss this food so much. I just can't wait to have this.

[00:22:06] Like, it wasn't like that. And, um, so that works for me, but probably circle like 2010, 11, 12, whatever. I started to drift, you know, a little bit towards relativism, insofar as. Because it worked so well for me, I just thought that this would be the solution for everybody. And, but here's the thing when you actually coach people and you talk to people and if you actually pay attention, you find that, you know, what, what worked for you won't work for somebody else necessarily.

[00:22:38] And we always say that, and we think what we mean is physiology. You know, people say, well, that diet didn't work for me. We're not that different physiologically, like really there's been diet studies, like the diet fits study looked at different polymorphisms on genes and how people reacted to high carb versus low carb.

[00:22:55] And they honestly didn't really find anything impressive. They thought they would. They didn't [00:23:00] when people say what worked for me, what they really mean is this felt very easy. This felt the least restrictive for me. And you find that within that, you've got people who say I tried flexible dieting, you know, the whole trying to hit my macros.

[00:23:13] Like it gave me anxiety, you know, but I did intermittent fasting and that just, I wasn't even hungry, you know? Or you said people say keto, you know, I went on a ketogenic diet or low carb diet. I never had any hunger. It felt easy. And what I always tell people is find the methodology that feels the easiest.

[00:23:31] Like we get. And we get caught up in the margins and people really major in the minors, right. When it comes to diet, because, you know, there's, I always come back to this, if you lose a significant amount of weight. So let's, you know, not people like me who are already lean, you know, once you're that level, then we can worry about like, all right, your saturated fat intake versus your fiber and all of this other like minutia.

[00:23:56] Right. But if you're overweight or obese, if you [00:24:00] lose weight, Through whatever methodology your blood markers will improve. Right? Most likely, I mean, look at, uh, Dr. Mark hub. So he was a Kansas state professor. He did the tweaky diet. So he did an 1800 calorie diet. I think like almost 60% of it was junk food.

[00:24:19] Like the, the calories were junk food. He lost 27 pounds in 12 weeks and all of his blood markers improved. Right. And we have this data. There's a, there was a meta analysis, um, by now in 2014 where they looked at diets that were equal in calories. So the inclusion criteria was they had to compare diets are equal in calories, but vary their carbohydrate and fat intake.

[00:24:44] And what they found was there was no significant differences in really any blood marker for health. Based on these two diets, what was significant was how much weight did they lose? And basically they said, you know, basically the conclusion was virtually all the [00:25:00] health benefits from dieting could be explained.

[00:25:02] The majority of which could be explained by the weight loss itself. So, you know, when your people talk about, you know, this causes inflammation, this does that. Adipose tissue causes inflammation, adipose tissue, secretes adipic kines. Those are pro-inflammatory it's it's, it's, uh, it's a, it's an orchestra of stuff coming together.

[00:25:23] But when you people try to pick out isolated macronutrients and when you are isolated nutrients and you just really disappointed with the results, when you look at them, I mean, you know, like, like sugar, for example, I mean, people wasn't well sugars. Pro-inflammatory not, not, if you equate calories. It's not now, is it easy to over-consume foods that are high in sugar and thus get more calories, get more adipose and become more?

[00:25:51] Pro-inflammatory absolutely. So people will straw, man, what I say, I'm not saying that you should eat a lot of sugar, right. But what I'm [00:26:00] saying is, and I'm thinking it's important for people to understand that you don't have to have so much food anxiety. And I see that a ton, like there's like. Some people are so afraid to eat anything.

[00:26:12] And I think it actually stops a lot of people from even trying, because well, this Netflix documentary said, you know, I can't have any carbohydrates. This one said, you know, all animal products are bad and you know, people, they go, well, I can't, I can't. You know, I don't even know where to start and it seems like anything's going to kill me, so I might as well just fuck off and do whatever, right.

[00:26:35] Carl Lanore: [00:26:35] No, it's okay. It's okay. Yeah, no, no.

[00:26:38] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:26:38] So, so I think that, like, what I've tried to do is say, listen, like there are certain things, like, I don't want to totally dismiss it. You know, there is some evidence that there could be some mechanisms where sugar independently could lead to a higher rate of cardiovascular disease.

[00:26:53] But I mean, when you equate everything and you're talking about this. It's very, very small.

[00:26:58] Carl Lanore: [00:26:58] Well, especially if, as you [00:27:00] point out, especially if you're, if you're successfully losing weight and you're reducing that metabolic debris that's causing so many problems, then the, the, the, the change that sugar potentially could invoke is probably negligible.

[00:27:16] Uh, when you, when you net everything out. And, and I also think that over the past 15 years I've been doing this show, there's a lot of people who, who, um, Want to forget about calories. You know, the calorie, isn't a calorie, isn't a calorie discussion. It's like, no, if you're eating protein, you'll know you can overeat protein and you won't get fat.

[00:27:36] That's not true. If you over, if you, if you eat more energy than your body uses, then it has to store it as a surplus. And that means it turns it into fat. And so we come full circle now to, Oh wow. A calorie does matter. It kind of seems like to me, at least, I don't know.

[00:27:54] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:27:54] Yeah, I think, you know, part of that is people don't understand the actual argument.

[00:27:57] They make a lot of straw man arguments. So [00:28:00] I'll take the one I always get, you know, what I, when I say that calories matter in that it is calories in calories out when it comes to weight loss, one, people confuse that and they'll say, well, I lost weight without tracking calories. Okay. But that's calories in calories out.

[00:28:14] We're talking about your energy intake versus your energy expenditure. And then they say, well, you know, I, you know, you know, my watch said I burned, you know, 2,500 a day and I was eating 2200. I didn't lose weight. Well, you're assuming that your watch is actually accurate, you know, like if you weren't, if you didn't lose weight over and, um, here's the other thing that messes people up is they'll weigh themselves sporadically and they'll go, Oh, well, I did this and I gained two pounds or whatever.

[00:28:41] Well, yeah. Did you weigh yourself every single day and take the average of those weights for the week? Because that's what I do. And I can tell you that those fluctuations, like he would say, well, I can fluctuate 10 pounds in a week, maybe from like one day to the next and morning tonight. But if you're taking [00:29:00] the averages.

[00:29:01] You don't see those big fluctuations. Typically you might see a couple of pounds, but for the most part, you don't see that. So that confuses people a lot. When they see that, or, you know, they'll go to an online calculator, that's going to give them their calorie deficit. They'll plug it in. They'll follow it.

[00:29:18] They don't look right. They assume, Oh, calorie deficits don't work. No, it just means that that prediction, that estimation of what a calorie deficit should be for you. Is not accurate for you. So I think that's where a lot of people get hung up on that. And the other one is when you say calories in calories out, a lot of people say, well, you're you saying that like, you know, 200 calories from m&ms is the same as 200 calories from a chicken breast?

[00:29:49] No. Well, Here's the here's the rub calorie is just a unit of measurement. So all calories are equal, like saying, you know, Cal a calorie is not a calorie. [00:30:00] It's like saying, okay, a dollar is not a dollar. It's just a you of right, right now, if I, my favorite, I like to use financial explanations. Cause I feel like it's boring to people.

[00:30:13] If I take my dollars and I, and I invest them in a Ferrari, that's not a very good investment. Depreciating asset. It's not going to bring me a lot of returns, if any, uh, if I invest those in good growth mutual funds, uh, I'm going to get a lot more back. So, um, yes, 200 calories from chicken breasts are the same 200 calories from.

[00:30:37] Uh, eminence, but those calories will have a differential impact on what happens in kind of by returns on energy expenditure. So we do know, and there was actually a really recent paper that came out with like very, very controlled metabolic ward study. Showing that high protein diets do in fact increase energy expenditure and even independent of the increases in lean body mass.

[00:30:58] Because some people have said, well, [00:31:00] high-protein diets increase lean body mass. That's why you see an increasing energy expenditure. And it looks like, yes, it does do that. But. There seems to be an independent

[00:31:09] Carl Lanore: [00:31:09] effect as well. Protein is, is, is a, is a net loss type of a thing on the body. It takes more energy to metabolize it and turn it into something, either a, an energy substrate or to turn it into something it can store.

[00:31:24] So it takes more energy of the body. Right.

[00:31:27] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:31:27] Right. So, and we've got to be careful with how they frame that. You know, it's still a net energy positive, right? So the, the, the, the TEF or DIT, we call it a thermic effect of food or diet induced thermogenesis, basically how much energy does your body have to input in order to extract the calories from the food you eat?

[00:31:45] You know, lipids fats are like zero to 3%. Uh, carbohydrates are around five to 10% and protein is around 20 to 30%. Alcohol alcohol is like 10 to 20% to an immediate, um, so. [00:32:00] When, when you are taking in protein, you are expending more energy, but you're still getting a net out of the calories you eat. Like you're still getting a net now approaching also has benefits for lean body mass.

[00:32:11] So there's also that to consider as well. Um, but yeah, like of course, like high protein diets have benefits. Nobody's gonna argue it, but that's not the same thing as saying that calories matter. Uh, and you know, people also, you know, you made the comment, you know, people will claim you can't over eat protein.

[00:32:28] You could probably overeat it to the point where you would gain fat, but it's very hard to overeat protein to that amount. I mean, anybody who's ever tried to eat like a really high amount of protein, like say two grams per pound of body weight. I mean, it gets to be like a job at a certain point. It's a lot of protein and that's great for society.

[00:32:46] Some people love that for satiety. Um, but the, you know, now the question interesting question is, you know, could you store those. Whenever people say, you know, you know, you can't [00:33:00] store excess fat. I'm always like, well, what do you think happens to those carbons that you take in? Do they just like vanish into thin air?

[00:33:06] Like, do they got to go somewhere? Right? Like if energy goes into a system, your body, it has to come out somewhere. All right. Or, or restored. Right. And we, we lose, you know, like it's, it's you lose it in sweat, you lose it, your breath, you lose it in your urine. You use it. It was a little bit feces. Well, that sort of thing, but it's gotta come out somewhere.

[00:33:26] So if there's something that, you know, you're making this claim about where's it going? Right, right, right. That's what, that's what I always use to break down some of these claims. Well, when it comes to protein, you know, what's probably happening. The carbon skeletons from protein. Do you actually store those as fat?

[00:33:41] I think is probably a very low amount. I mean, we know that the carbohydrate in a normal diet, the amount of carbohydrate that gets stored as adipose is very, very low. It's like less than 2%. Um, I think there was an overfeeding study where they overfed people by, I think like around a thousand calories above, uh, their, their ma their maintenance, [00:34:00] um, from carbohydrate or no, sorry.

[00:34:03] It was from a mix of carbohydrate and fat and they found that. I think the people stored like 282 grams of fat in a day. And of that 278 grams of it was from dietary fat. Um, there was only four grams was from the Novo lipogenesis. Now, if you F if you completely cut out dietary fat and you pump carbohydrated up enough.

[00:34:25] Trust me, the body will adapt to ramp up to Nova epigenesis and you'll store a hell of a lot more of it. But in a normal mixed diet, you don't really store much carbohydrate as fat. So I doubt that you'd store much protein as fat either because the, the, the pathway to get to adipose for the carbon skeleton from protein would be similar to that of carbohydrates, except for the ketogenic amino acids.

[00:34:49] Um, so, but, but what protein would do. Is provide a caloric cushion for the dietary fat or carbohydrate. You eat to be stored as [00:35:00] fat. So that's, you know, that's where people are maybe technically correct in saying that we don't store protein as fat. True. But if you're eating any dietary fat whatsoever, and you're eating a huge amount of protein that causes you to be in a caloric surplus, um, then you're going to store more of that dietary fat as fat.

[00:35:17] So, you know, these are, I think part of the reason people don't like to admit calories matter is cause it's like it takes away kind of the biohacking disorder.

[00:35:25] Carl Lanore: [00:35:25] Yeah. Right, right. Oh, you can fool the body. But what I was going to say and to summarize this is, but none of this really matters if you're in a caloric deficit, am I right?

[00:35:35] Like all these, all these manipulations by the body kind of are very complicated. Most people go, Oh, F it, I am just not, you know, like you said, I'm just not going to eat. But the reality is if you, if you know that you're truly in a caloric deficit and you can establish that over your own over time, or you can go get a bomb, Cal Kemo.

[00:35:55] Calorimeter or I have a breezing unit that hooks up to my, [00:36:00] uh, iPhone and you determine like, Oh, here, this is how many calories I need a day just to maintain. And you know, you're eating three or 400 calories or less a day a day. Then none of this really matters. Your, you don't have to worry about the mixing of carbs and fats and all that other stuff.

[00:36:15] Is that right?

[00:36:18] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:36:18] Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't want to say that, like, you know, nothing else matters because like that's a, that's a very strong statement. Um, there probably are things that matter a little bit, but you know, when it comes to body composition and most markers of health, I would say that the data is pretty strong, that, you know, if you, even if you're in a calorie deficit, if you pump your saturated fat up high enough, you can start to get some walkie things happening with LDL, cholesterol and LDL, oxidation of cholesterol, that sort of thing.

[00:36:49] Um, so I don't think I'd recommend that, but you know, if it, if it comes down to like, if somebody was asking me, like, let's create a hypothetical of, you know, somebody says, [00:37:00] well, Well, the diet I can stick to is a high saturated, fat diet, but it's allowing me to lose fat. Am I making myself worse? No, you're probably getting healthier by, by losing the weight.

[00:37:12] Now, are you getting as healthy as you possibly could be? If you were including less diet, less saturated, fat, more polyunsaturated fats, probably not. And this is, this is where like people in carnivore get really twisted. Cause they'll say, well, look at me, I'm healthy. And my saturated fat, my LDL cholesterol is 500 and I haven't dropped it yet.

[00:37:32] And that, that represents a, a fundamental misunderstanding of, of one how LDL cholesterol works in terms of heart disease and to, you know, showing that that doesn't really prove anything, right? Like you can find people who were very healthy, who had low cholesterol who had a heart attack. This is where you can find people who have had high cholesterol who didn't have heart attacks live to old age.

[00:37:53] Right, right. Then that's and that's, you need to, there's always outliers there's that, but that's why we operate. When we make [00:38:00] recommendations, we look at what the averages do. Right. That's very important. Uh, because that's what that, you know, people get all pissed off about the government and their recommendations and whatnot.

[00:38:10] Um, you know, the, government's got to make recommendations based on averages. Like that's just, that's just the nature of the game and that's a very difficult task to do. So, you know, th th this misunderstanding a lot of it is I think people don't understand the concept of lifetime risk. Right. So I, I use the example of compounding interest, right.

[00:38:31] So there's, um, I'll give an example just because it's fresh on my mind, but I recently wrote a big debunking of, um, Paul Saladino his appearance on the Joe Rogan podcast. It was like 50 pages long and almost 300 citations. But you know, Paul will say something like, well, my LDL is 500. I've been this way for several years.

[00:38:52] And look at me, I'm healthy. No, I don't have any calcium in my arteries. You know, that the, that, no, [00:39:00] not right now, you know, but. It's and he may very well be pretty healthy, but is he as healthy as he possibly could be? If his cholesterol was lower, probably not. Now people will look at like these randomized controlled trials where they do high saturated fat versus low saturated fat.

[00:39:16] And they say, Oh look, it, it didn't. There was no difference in outcomes. Well, yeah, but you can only run a randomized controlled trial for a couple of years. You know, eating, you know, having high LDL is not the difference between dying at 80 and dying at 40 it's demonstrating, dying at 80 and dying at 75.

[00:39:34] Like that's the difference? And I'll use an example is it's like compounding interest, right? So if you have two people and they both best, um, $8,000 at, at like, let's say 25 years old, And, um, one person is getting 6% interest in one person is getting 7% interest. Well, if you look at them after three years or a couple of years, there's not going to be much difference in how much money they [00:40:00] have.

[00:40:00] Like, they're just not, but if you look at it by the time they're 70, there's going to be a huge difference in how much money they have. If they're both getting the same, if they're both getting 1% difference in interest, that's because it's a lifetime accrual. Right. And you know, it's not the exact same thing.

[00:40:16] So I'm guilty of a little bit false equivalence, but. No, it's a light

[00:40:20] Carl Lanore: [00:40:20] analogy is easy to understand. No, no, right. I, I get it. I get it completely. I want, I want to take a commercial break. I want to plug something real quick too. So you listen to this interview and you're thinking, wow, this sounds really complex.

[00:40:31] And I don't even know where to start. Well, there's an app and you can w where can people get this at the app

[00:40:38] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:40:38] store? Yeah, so we're on, uh, Apple and Android. Um, so if you can go to our website, join carbon.com and you it'll, you can download from either one. So we got it on the app store and Google play.

[00:40:50] Carl Lanore: [00:40:50] And regardless of what your diet style is, kedo, if you're a vegan, if you're low carb or low fat, you will be able to use this app [00:41:00] to help guide you to your goals.

[00:41:02] And again, this is not right. A zealot app. This isn't like, no, you've got to eat this only, you know, I see people on kedo, uh, boards and they, they, they just, they say, Oh, it's not working. My hair's falling out. I can't sleep. And I w I, I want to say, get the F off the diet. I mean, it doesn't sound like it's for you.

[00:41:22] Like why people are going, Oh, you're not eating enough fat, or it's like, it's not working for you. You know, that's why I agree with you. Diet has become religion. Like, if I, and I've said on this show, dozens of times, if your diet style comes with an annual cruise and a membership card, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

[00:41:43] Absolutely. But there's a, there's an app out there for sensible people who want to focus on goals and get there. Uh, you can go, it's called get carbon, right. It's called the carbon app, right? Is that what it's called?

[00:41:54] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:41:54] Yeah, Joe joined carbon. So it's called carbon diet coach. And basically, you know, it does all the [00:42:00] same things that nutritional coach would do where you go there, you put your information in, in terms of, you know, your weight, your, your body fat, some other measurements.

[00:42:07] If you're not sure your body fat, we can help you estimate it. Um, and then it will, and you give your dietary preference, you know, you listed off the dietary preferences and then even within those dietary preferences, you can shimmy the macros a little bit within certain ranges. So you can really tailor it to what your.

[00:42:23] What's sustainable for you. What's easiest for you. Uh, and then you check in with the coach coaching part of the app every week, we recommend logging your weight daily, um, because that gives more accurate data. Um, and then the coach will adjust or not adjust your macros based on how you're progressing and your specific goal.

[00:42:43] And you can even adjust your rate of loss or rate of gain depending on what your goal is. Um, and then we have, uh, an integrated food tracker into it as well. Um, so it's kind of like, you know, people say what's their skin. This is my fitness pal. My fitness pal is just a tracker. This is a coach [00:43:00] app, primarily you're paying for the coaching portion.

[00:43:02] Um, it's $9 99 cents a month or less. It's less if you buy six, six months or a year upfront. And, uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's the best thing going. We. I mean, honestly, I've used it to coach me for the past, uh, year and a half. Um, and it's, it's, it's one, it's cool to use something that you designed, the logic that you designed and people will say, well, why do you need like something to coach you?

[00:43:28] I'm like, because I'm an emotional idiot. Like everyone else, you know, like I'm liable to make stupid decisions based on emotion and not logic. Um, and so just having an app. To, you know, kind of crunch the data unbiasedly and say, no, here's what you're doing. That takes so much stress away from me. It's it's been, I mean, I'm just happy to have it just for me.

[00:43:51] So thanks for, uh, thanks for plugging that button. Oh, I'm doing, I'm

[00:43:55] Carl Lanore: [00:43:55] doing the audience. I'm doing the, doing the audience a big favor by plugging it. My intention was to help [00:44:00] them. I mean, you, you don't, you're very successful. You don't need me, but they need you. They need you. Let's take a quick commercial break.

[00:44:06] We'll be right back. Stay tuned. We're talking with lane Norton.

[00:44:13] welcome back to super Yuma radio. We're talking with superhuman lane Norton. I got to make a plug real quick here. We're giving away five of these, a meteorite massage balls. I have one right here. I use it constantly. It's a fantastic device. You can carry it with you. It's heated. It has three different massage settings.

[00:44:35] If you go to SHR network.biz/free media, or you're entered to win one of five, give it a try. I love my medium. So are there any other, any con founding factors when we talk about successful diet, you know, um, one of my favorite things to talk about when people say, well, you know, I have the thrifty gene, I can't lose weight.

[00:44:59] And I [00:45:00] say, And this is pretty crude, but you'll probably like it because you like these kinds of things. I say, you know, uh, if you look in a prisoner of war camp, there's never this one fat guy, like, you know, Joe, they like, they they're starving him. The guy he's still 300 pounds. I don't understand that. Oh, he has the thrifty gene.

[00:45:17] Like when you starve people, they all get skinny. But are there any confounding factors here that we have to take into consideration, maybe menopause for women, anything like that?

[00:45:27] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:45:27] So great question. Um, and yes, there, there are some things that, that do make a difference and, and certainly not everyone has the same level of, of energy expenditure.

[00:45:35] Otherwise we we'd all have relatively similar physiques or body fat levels. Um, so let's look at a big picture. So you have your total daily energy expenditure is, is how many. Calories or how much energy you exert on a daily basis, which fluctuates, but it's basically made up of your resting energy expenditure, which is just basically how much energy it [00:46:00] costs to keep the lights on, right?

[00:46:01] Like keep your organs, working, blood flowing, all that good stuff. That's actually turns out for most people is the majority of their energy expenditure anywhere from 50 to 70% of our daily energy expenditure is resting energy expenditure. Uh, then you have your, uh, neat. Which is kind of non purposeful movements throughout the day.

[00:46:23] So if you're like a fidgeter or you, um, you know, you pace like things that you're not trying to do, unintentional movements is probably the best way to describe that, which that's actually a pretty significant portion of our, of our. Of our energy expenditure and we'll, I'll, I'll touch on this a little bit later.

[00:46:41] Then we have our TEF, which we already discussed. That's only like five to 10% of our daily energy expenditure. And then you've got whatever exercise you throw on top of that. Now, uh, you know, if you've got some of these Olympic athletes who are training, you know, six hours a day, their exercise may be the biggest portion of their energy expenditure, you know, compared to resting energy [00:47:00] expenditure.

[00:47:00] But for most people who aren't, aren't training for hours a day, um, you know, resting energy expenditure is the greatest variable. So. Um, those are the basic four. All right. Now, um, what I'll always say is, okay, if you are a slow metabolism or you have something that's causing you to have difficulty losing weight, then it has to be impacting one of those variables.

[00:47:25] Like there's not this, this isn't magic. This isn't wizardry. That those things account for our daily energy expenditure. So let's take something like, for example, that does make a difference, like thyroid hormone, right? So people with low thyroid, I think the lowest I've seen in the literature is it can decrease their resting energy expenditure by about 45%.

[00:47:45] Okay. Now that's pretty significant. All right. Yeah. That's if you, if you do the math that ends up being something like, um, you know, three, 400 calories a day on for the average per person, uh, which is significant. But that doesn't mean you can't lose weight. That [00:48:00] just means it's harder for you than, than the average person.

[00:48:02] And, um, additionally, uh, you can get treatment for that. You can, you can fix that to where it's normal and it shouldn't be not impacting your energy's penetrating more. And actually what I find a lot of is there's a lot of people who claim they have hormone problems who don't actually get their hormones measured.

[00:48:21] And I think the reason for that is because they're afraid if they get the measured and find out that there's nothing wrong, that they won't have it easy to blame on. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. So, and again, I'm not saying that there isn't, you know, people will say, well, you know, it's insulin or whatever. And I'll say, well, look at the studies where, you know, they.

[00:48:42] Like inject insulin. It actually tends to increase energy expenditure, if anything. Um, so I don't think it's insulin, you know, now you could argue like some of, um, actually this is a great example of this. Um, so there, uh, a recent meta analysis that came out from a guy named [00:49:00] Ludwig out of Harvard, big, low car proponent.

[00:49:03] Yeah. And basically, um, The conclusion was, uh, he was really analyzing a study from Kevin Hall. I don't know if you're familiar with criminal holes work. Um, but, uh, Kevin Hall did a meta-analysis of 28 controlled feeding studies. So basically the inclusion criteria was the food had to be provided to the participants because we know how difficult compliance can be in diet studies and they had to measure body composition or, uh, energy expenditure.

[00:49:32] Now. Uh, basically Hall's men analysis showed that there was really no difference. Uh, when you, when protein and calories were acquainted, there was no difference based on the carbohydrate and fat content of the diets, um, in terms of energy expenditure or fat loss. And actually it favored the low fat diets slightly, very slightly.

[00:49:54] Um, but in my mind, it not a physiologically relevant amount, if [00:50:00] that makes sense. So Ludwig, reanalyze this and said, okay, well, I want to look at the studies that were longer than 17 days. Okay. This arbitrary cutoff 17 days. And he said, well, you know, Google weren't low carbon after it. They weren't keto adapted.

[00:50:15] So when you include those studies, when you, when you separate out those studies and studies longer than 17 days, he showed the, Oh, actually there's this significant increase in energy expenditure on low carb diets. And of course the low carb community took that and went crazy about it. Right. Well, I actually looked at the study cause I'm like, okay, well, if we're getting an increase in energy expenditure, it has to come from somewhere.

[00:50:35] Right? So Ludwig's own study was one of the studies included this benefit analysis. So Ludwig had this study where they had people on maintenance calories, and they had to put them on low carb, medium carb or high carb diets. And they showed an increase of 400 calories per day energy expenditure on the low carb diet.

[00:50:55] Here's where people who don't read the fine print of this stuff, get, get [00:51:00] lost. They measured, um, the resting energy expenditure. There was no difference. Uh, in the groups, they measured physical activity. There was no difference. So where is this difference in energy expenditure coming from? What wouldn't you, when you look at the methodology used, there's basically a couple of ways to measure energy expenditure.

[00:51:19] You have your metabolic ward, metabolic chamber stuff, which is a direct measurement of energy expenditure. It can be indirect, but it's the most direct measurement of energy expenditure. And then you have something called w war. Now, if you're going to do a free living study, that's a long period of time.

[00:51:36] You're going to use doubly labeled water because doing a metabolic chamber. I mean, you just, any more than a month, it's just completely impractical because you literally are housing people in food jail, basically. Right. Um, and you've got to, I mean, if you're going to take people out of their jobs and have them contained in a chamber for a month, you got to pay them.

[00:51:54] You know, it gets very, very expensive. So anyways, um, basically what you see [00:52:00] is all the studies that favored the low carb were all done with doubly labeled water. And the other thing I, I pointed out was that in none of these studies that showed an increase in energy expenditure, none of them showed a difference in body composition.

[00:52:13] So if you're truly getting an increase in energy expenditure,

[00:52:19] Yeah, we should see a difference in body composition, especially if these longer term, but we don't. And so if you really look through the literature, what you find is that low carb diets, uh, Dublin level water doesn't appear to be, um, and validate low carb

[00:52:35] Carl Lanore: [00:52:35] diet.

[00:52:36] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:52:36] Anyway, the technical reason for that is probably because on a low carb or ketogenic diet, Um, the amount of CO2 you expire is greater than the amount predicted based on these equations and that CO2 amount that gas exchange ratio of Oh two to CO2 is one, uh, it's one of the components of this equation that helps [00:53:00] determine total daily energy expenditure.

[00:53:02] So, um, like if you look at the, again, minimal chamber is a direct measurement. Um, so if you look at metabolic chamber data on normal diets, it has about a 0.8 ish R value, which is basically a measurement of how tightly correlated. These two are a 0.8 is pretty good with low carb diets. It's a 0.5, which means it's not so good.

[00:53:26] Uh, so again, all that, all that to kind of wind back to say that if you work, if you are having trouble losing weight, There is either you're eating too much. Now, when I say that people get really offended because they think I'm accusing them of being gluttonous, right? No I'm saying that you might be eating too much based on your goals and your current level of energy expenditure.

[00:53:51] I'm not saying you're a glutton. Okay, so please take your emotions out. Um, if I, if I'm trying to get ready for a bodybuilding show and I [00:54:00] have stopped losing weight and I'm eating 2000 calories a day and I'm exercising for an hour and a half a day, um, I'm not being a glutton, I'm just eating too much for my current

[00:54:10] Carl Lanore: [00:54:10] goal.

[00:54:11] And too much could be a couple of hundred calories a day because over the course of the week, that's a thousand calories. I mean, or it's actually more than a thousand. So we're talking about small amounts here, right?

[00:54:22] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:54:22] Well, this, this is the thing that people, this is the uncomfortable part of this conversation that I have to have a clients quite a bit.

[00:54:29] Um, people now people say people lie. I don't know if it's a case of lying so much, as people are terrible at estimating, uh, how many calories they eat. Right? So they, there was a study a while back. Uh, there's a couple of studies I'm going to side here, but there was one study where they put people in metabolic ward and had them, um, track their calories and, um, you know, report them.

[00:54:54] And then the researchers were also tracking exactly how much they ate. Um, They [00:55:00] found that the people under reported their caloric intake by about 50%. So most likely it's not your hormones. It's, it's the fact that you're, you're not accurately tracking what you're eating. And when I say that, I'm not saying that you're necessarily lying, but people don't like one.

[00:55:18] People will die well during the week. And then they'll go crazy on the weekends. They'll be like, Oh, I'm eating 1500 calories. Can't lose weight. No, you're eating 1500 calories during the week. And then you're eating 4,000 on the week. Right. That's why you can't lose weight. Right. Um, or, um, you know, they grab a handful of nuts or they take licks and bites and stacks that they don't account for.

[00:55:37] And those can add up to a significant amount throughout the day. And then if you've never, actually, I've told I had this with them. I still remember this conversation on Instagram with the lady. She was saying she was eating 1600 calories. And I said, listen, have you ever had the experience of like weighing every single piece of food that goes into your mouth and tracking it?

[00:55:55] And she was like, no. I said, listen, I'm not saying you got to do this for the rest of your [00:56:00] life. I just want you to do this for one week. I don't want you to change anything about your diet. I just want you to track it. Two days later, she came back and says, Oh my God, I'm mean 2,700 calories. I say, yeah.

[00:56:10] You know, and actually it's probably more than that, because guess what happens when people have to. W when you tell them the way everything they stopped stalking and they stopped taking licks and bites of stuff, because, you know, you can put away like a lick of something while you're cooking. Right.

[00:56:23] Right, right. So those, those add up, you know, people said, well, it's only 50 calories here. This there. Yeah. 50 calories that isolation isn't going to make you fat. But when you add it up over the course of the day, it's a huge difference. And now, just to show you how powerful the cognitive dissonance is of people not wanting to admit this to themselves, there was a study done where the researchers gave w level water and basically told people, listen, we're going to know if you're overeating using this method.

[00:56:51] Okay, we're going to know how much you're eating. Uh, we want you to report accurately. So of course people did not report accurately. And, um, [00:57:00] The, uh, the researcher, they actually argued with the researchers about how much they were eating. You're

[00:57:05] Carl Lanore: [00:57:05] wrong. You're wrong. Yeah. Right.

[00:57:07] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:57:07] Yeah. And so it goes to show like that feels, it feels like an attack when somebody says that to us and that's where people get, can get sucked into this whole calorie deficits, don't work, or, you know, I have a bad metabolism or this and that.

[00:57:23] I'm not saying there aren't people out there who have slow metabolism. There are, there are some people who have. You know, slower than normal, uh, you know, resting energy expenditure, but it's not why most people can't lose weight. And in fact, they've done numerous studies where they've taken obese or type two diabetics and looked at the resting energy expenditure and seeing that it's not different.

[00:57:47] From people who are lean are actually actually like usually overweight people have higher resting energy expenditure because there's a lot

[00:57:56] Carl Lanore: [00:57:56] more to it. There's a lot more for T for energy to do. I mean, they have big [00:58:00] box. Right,

[00:58:01] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:58:01] right now, if you equate lean body mass, there's no difference, right? Like there's very little difference, but still obese people tend to have higher lean body mass just because they're carrying around more total mess.

[00:58:11] Um, and then you look at, um, uh, I wasn't gonna say they, they, they also type two diabetics and obese people lose just as much, if not more weight than predicted, compared to lean individuals or not obese individuals. So, no, it's, it's on average, this isn't the reason that people having trouble losing weight.

[00:58:33] Now the, the one that the difference is, you know, There's kind of like two camps right now that have been divided. There's like a camp where it's, it's nothing is your fault. It's all evil food industry, you know, you made you fat and then there's that

[00:58:52] Carl Lanore: [00:58:52] trails are making you fat. I know. It's like, there's everything, everything makes people fat

[00:58:55] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [00:58:55] today.

[00:58:56] Right. And then there's the other camp. That's, it's all your fault. [00:59:00] You're just a glutton. You're lazy. Both of these are not helpful narratives. They're both role. Um, there's absolutely. Something w with obese people, in terms of like their level of food reward, uh, trauma seems to play a role in it. Some people use food for comfort.

[00:59:18] Um, there's a sociological aspect. I mean, think about the last time you went to a social event and there wasn't food, um, there's, there's a psychological aspect to it. There, you know, there there's evidence that some foods that food addiction is the wrong term, but food dependence, um, You know, and there's obviously the hyper palatability issue.

[00:59:38] And, you know, even like right down to obese, people get a higher reward from food. Like my wife has commented. She's like, you don't, you don't give a damn about food, but like, it's just, it's just fuel for you. You know? You don't, you don't, I don't put.

[00:59:56] Uh, Ethan Suplee. Are you familiar with him? He's an actor who lost it. [01:00:00] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:00] Carl Lanore: [01:00:00] I follow him on Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. I used to love it. I loved my name is Earl. I go back and watch old episodes of it. I love that shelf, right?

[01:00:10] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:00:10] Yeah. So Ethan talked about how, uh, so actually when I was out there, we trained together.

[01:00:14] I was out in California. And I, you know, I said, you want to grab my tea afterwards? And he said, no, that's okay. No worries. And he said, actually the reason I said no was I don't really like eating in front of people, you know? And because of, and he's like also, like, I know if I go out to eat, like I have, I have this background where I used to put food on such a pedestal that it's just not a healthy thing for me.

[01:00:37] I said, okay, cool. No problem. You know? Um, but that was a really interesting insight, right? Like, whereas I go out to eat, I don't even think twice about it. I'm just like, all right, it's right. But that's not the same for everybody. So, you know, this idea that. You're a glutton, you're a Slav, you know, I that's very unhelpful narrative.

[01:00:54] Um, and even like, when you look at, uh, they did a survey of obese women and they found that out of a hundred obese women, [01:01:00] 60 had some kind of sexual assault or trauma in their background, right. Mid said, you know, I became big. So that men wouldn't be interested in me or that I felt like I could defend myself.

[01:01:11] You know? So all like, all this stuff matters, all this stuff matters, but. It's a combination. There is a personal accountability, right. But also the issue of, you know, all these other things. Well, right.

[01:01:27] Carl Lanore: [01:01:27] But the good news is the good news is if you, if you do eat good healthy foods and you watch your calories and you're diligent about it, day in and day out for months, you know, one of the things I love to talk about is I was 330 pounds.

[01:01:44] When I first started doing this show it's because I had saved my own life. I was getting ready to have a pacemaker and I found weightlifting and I found clean eating and I changed. I lost a hundred pounds. And one of the things I like to talk to people about is I didn't become [01:02:00] 330 pounds overnight. It took me a decade.

[01:02:03] And if you think you can do this for a decade and become overweight and then flip the strip, switch, buy a meal, buy a supplement. And, and, and in six months, you're going to be able to go to the beach. You're wrong. If you took you 10 months to build that body, it's going to take you 10 months to shed that fat.

[01:02:19] I mean, 10 years to shed that fat people are too ambitious or. Uh, if I don't know if it's the, uh, the deception in the diet industry, but people think that it's just gonna, boom, boom. I'm going to look great in a couple months.

[01:02:35] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:02:35] Well, if I can draw another financial comparison, it's kind of the, you know, fad diets and these products and whatnot.

[01:02:41] It's kind of like people who want to get rich quick. Right. And so it's like buy lottery tickets to get rich, or it's like, yeah, sure. I mean, somebody who's going to win, but it's not going to be you. They start artistics, you know? Uh, or it's like, you know, the weekend. Courses, you can take learning how to flip houses that the government pays [01:03:00] for.

[01:03:00] And so we can make six figures like, come on. I mean, yes. Is there one or two people out there who that will work for you? Of course, but like for the vast majority of people, they lose their, they lose their ass doing that sort of thing, you know, pyramid scheme, because it's what works for success. On average financially is very boring.

[01:03:21] It's very boring. It's it's about being consistent. It's about saving. It's about making sacrifices in the short term so that you can have more in the longterm. Right. And so, um, I think that's very unsexy for a lot of people and I think there must be some kind of secret. And, um, you know, I try, I try to tell people there is no secret, you know, like there's no secret.

[01:03:43] It's, it's, it's consistent people get it. They get it confused. The answer is simple, but that doesn't mean the implementation is simple, right? Because it's it's, if it was just, if this is a great, another financial, uh, comparison to make [01:04:00] yes, you need to eat less calories, move more, right. If you want to create a calorie deficit.

[01:04:06] Okay. So why are people fat? Right? It's not an information thing. Uh, why are people broke? All right.

[01:04:11] Carl Lanore: [01:04:11] Cause they spend more than they turn.

[01:04:13] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:04:13] Right. It was making $20,000 a year. As a grad student, I was actually saving money. I saved a little bit of money every month. Now I didn't have much of a life and I didn't go out and do much stuff.

[01:04:23] Right. So sacrifice, but I was able to do that. It just meant a lot more sacrifice than when I was making over six figures. Right. So I could afford to be a little more wasteful. Um, yeah. And I think that that's a big component that people miss out on that, this idea that there's some quick fix or something that was like, no, no, if you fail the diet, think about all the times that diet didn't work.

[01:04:51] It wasn't because you didn't have the perfect macronutrient ratio or you ate past this certain time or your fasting window wasn't long enough. It's because you just stopped [01:05:00] doing it. It's because your habits and behaviors were incorrect. And you talked that, you just talked about it. Carl, you got overweight over a 10 year period.

[01:05:10] You built habits and behaviors over that 10 year period where some of this stuff was just autopilot. I'm sure there were some things you were doing, like eating certain calorie, dense foods in certain situations that were simply autopilot. I mean, I know I'm a PhD in nutrition. When I transitioned from like a bulking season to a, uh, to a cutting phase, it will take me a couple of weeks to get out of my bulking habits.

[01:05:34] Right. Like when I was bulking, I would have a bowl of ice cream every night. And then when I get the cutting, I'm like, I like going to have my bowl eyes criminally. Oh shit. I can't do that. That's not right. I, I, I can do it, but it's going to make it much harder for me, you know? And then, um, the other thing is like, I just got out of this cutting phase.

[01:05:51] Um, where did the shred with lane thing in November? I still have some of those habits. Like, I'm still like this morning I got up and I could eat [01:06:00] like, just like a quick bowl of oatmeal or cereal or something like that to get out the door real quick, uh, to go train. But I like, okay. I made up some rice cakes with the protein cookie butter and like, and then I, I, I did like a lot more effort than I normally would because I've still maintained some of those habits from that weight loss phase.

[01:06:20] Right. And I think that's the biggest thing, right. When it, when it comes to. Spending and saving everyone, no one out there. What argue? I don't think anyone out there would argue that if you want to save money, you need to earn more than you spent. I don't, I don't think any

[01:06:37] Carl Lanore: [01:06:37] more or more like real realistically spend less than you earn.

[01:06:42] A lot of times we can't earn more, but we can spend less that's in our control.

[01:06:48] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:06:48] Correct. And that's kinda like calories. You can eat less, move more. Um, But, but, but so why are people broke? I mean, they have that information. Why can't they just not be broke because it's because their [01:07:00] habits and behaviors, the same reason somebody goes on a, a food binge is the same reason somebody goes to the shopping bitch, because they're, they're trying to placate that trouble or pain or not deal with their whatever's bothering them.

[01:07:13] Right. So it's not an information problem. It's a habits and behaviors problem. You know, it was the same thing, you know, going and getting a Starbucks every morning. Right? Like, um, I listened to a financial guy and I don't agree with everything he says, but, um, I think he's kinda like a little bit like me for finances, they Dave Ramsey.

[01:07:31] And one of the things he said that really resonated with me was, you know, when people have a lot of debt, he recommends paying the smallest step first and then the next step, and then the next step, the next step. And people have said, that's stupid. Why wouldn't you just pay off the highest interest rate first?

[01:07:47] And he said, because, because if we were doing math, we wouldn't be in this situation. Right. That's like people who are, why not just do an all protein diet because that's, you know, higher TEF. And it's like, well, you're doing math, but if we were doing [01:08:00] math, you wouldn't be in this situation. Right. It's a habits problem.

[01:08:04] It's a habits problem. So try to get you some quick wins, try to change your habits. That's. As I was writing my book, fat loss forever. Um, what are the things I, I, it's so funny when I write, I learned so much what I want to learn about something. I ended up writing about it because I just learned so much, like every debate I've been in recently, I ended up writing a big article afterwards because I just learned so much, you know, going through that process and, um, you know, writing that book, I really realized, man.

[01:08:40] All these diets. Like if you look at them, there was actually a recent meta analysis had been two men analysis looking at like different name diets, so different popular diets, you know, Mediterranean plant-based a whole 30 or whatever, you know, you pick ketogenic Atkins and they basically show that there was no difference in long-term weight [01:09:00] loss with any of them.

[01:09:01] But they were all pretty equally horrible. Not because they don't work, but because. You know, people have trouble sticking to a particular diet, but when they did a regression and they looked at okay, of the people who were compliant over the longterm to those diets, what, what, what happened? Well, they found that compliance almost was perfectly associated with weight loss almost perfectly.

[01:09:25] And what the conclusion of the authors on both these studies was, is the individual should choose the diet that they feel like they can, they can adhere to sustain. And I tell people, you know, do what do it, do the diet that feels the least restrictive to you. That feels the easiest to you. And it's really that consistency.

[01:09:47] I put up a post in our, um, our carbon diet coach Facebook group today. And I said, you know, be honest with yourself. Just, just, I know that that weight loss can be a frustrating thing. [01:10:00] I know, you know, when your weight fluctuates, it can make you feel bad. I want you to do this. For six months for six months be consistent.

[01:10:09] You don't have to be perfect. Be consistent. Don't have any huge blowouts, just be consistent. Just try to get close. Right. And do that every day. And if you do that, not even every day, like just, just, just most like the you're

[01:10:24] Carl Lanore: [01:10:24] already at the time 80%. Right.

[01:10:27] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:10:27] Right. And you will be shocked at what will happen in six months because.

[01:10:35] When you failed before, if it wasn't because you didn't have all these little variables and check, it was because you went on vacation for a week and you did, and you fell off and then whatever, that's why you came back and you were at 10 pounds and

[01:10:47] Carl Lanore: [01:10:47] people. And here's the interesting thing about that.

[01:10:50] People always find. A reason to derail their success case. In point they just started diet. Oh, but this weekend we promised to go out with [01:11:00] so-and-so and her husband, and then they get back on the diet and then it's like, say no to those things. If you look at Ethan supply, right. Regardless of how anybody would say, Oh, that's weird or whatever, he knows himself, he's not going to let himself get derailed.

[01:11:16] He doesn't care. He's like, no, I know what works for me. But people won't do that. It comes full circle to what you said, why people are broke. People know that if they spend more than they earn, they're going to be broke. And people know if they eat more than the energy, they expend they're going to be fat, but they always find a reason that they have no choice, but to derail themselves,

[01:11:39] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:11:39] how you brought up a really good the point just there.

[01:11:42] And there was actually a systematic review that just came out by, um, a PhD candidate named Marie speckly. I'm going to give her a shout out. Actually made me feel really good. She said she read my book, fat loss forever, and it made her inspire her to go back and do a PhD and do the systematic review. So [01:12:00] pretty awesome.

[01:12:00] Like carpet, like that's where honestly, like those are some of the best compliments I can get. What I find out that other people say I went and did a PhD or a master's because of you or like Stu I love hearing from students that that's the. The best thing in the world, because they're going to go out and they're the ones going to go change the world, but how many people they impact?

[01:12:17] Um, so she did a systematic review of people who lose weight and keep it off. Um, like what are these characteristics? What do these people have in common? And, you know, the same old things came up with self-monitoring cognitive restraint, a lot of these things. But the one thing that I hadn't heard before that was interesting was they, they talked about how they had to form a new identity.

[01:12:37] They had to form a new identity. And I think a lot of people want to keep portions of their old,

[01:12:46] you know, I, I, on Friday I go for drinks and, you know, do this thing, right? No, not, you can never do those things. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is, if you think you can keep the habits and behaviors you had and make this [01:13:00] change, you're kidding yourself, right. That you have to, as Ethan Suplee says, I killed my clone today.

[01:13:07] You have to kill your club, that that person is gone. You have to be a different person. And that's, that's very, very hard for some people, because even though they want to lose weight, they don't want it more than they want their comfort zone.

[01:13:23] Carl Lanore: [01:13:23] Yes, yes. And do it, do it for six months, like you said. Okay. You can go out for drinks and do all those things.

[01:13:30] Just not for six months. Not it's not forever. Just six months. Yeah.

[01:13:35] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:13:35] Or you have to do things like, you know, for me, like I'm a flexible diner, right. But if I'm going out to a restaurant, not now, not right now, because I'm about 3,500 calories a day, I've got quite a bit of flexibility. Um, and also shameless plug for carbon in our calorie planner.

[01:13:49] You can, you know, adjust different days so you can have higher or lower calorie days. It will automatically adjust your other days. So I do that for the weekends. I give myself more flexibility on the weekends. Um, [01:14:00] so I can have, you know, 4,000 calories. So I'm not really limited by what I can do, but if I was dieting, um, and we were going to go out somewhere and I, you know, I had a, a limitation on, on what I could have.

[01:14:11] Well, I'm going to find out what the restaurant is. I'm going to look up what they've got before I get there. And I'm going to have a plan when I get there. So again, that might seem weird to some people, but Hey, I again, I'll take a Dave Ramsey, quote, normal is fat, broken, stupid, be weird. Okay. I love it. So if, and this, the thing is if you want something you've never had, you've got to do something you've never done right now taken too far.

[01:14:38] You can get into disordered eating patterns for sure. And I, I, you know, I don't recommend those. That's, that's not a good idea. You don't wanna become somebody who obsesses about food, but there's a difference between obsessing about food and saying, okay, I'm going to take five minutes. Look up what's online here because I'm still going out.

[01:14:53] I'm still being social. I'm still, you know, I'll I told people like I had ice cream every week [01:15:00] when I was doing the flame. I. Popcorn. I all the foods I loved, I had beer every week, you know, but I just had to, to plan for it and I had to budget appropriately. Right. It's the same thing. Like if I, if I want to go buy a new car, I can go buy a new car.

[01:15:19] But if I want to keep all my budget, I've got a, I've got a trim back in some other places. Right. So it's, it's, it's very much like that. And I, again, I think that personal. I want to reframe it for a lot of people, because I think personal responsibility is really intimidating for a lot of

[01:15:36] Carl Lanore: [01:15:36] people. It's almost like blaming them.

[01:15:38] It's like, it's all yours. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:15:40] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:15:40] Yeah. And look at it as empowering, because if there's no personal responsibility, if the food industry really made you the way you are, all these things made you the way you are, then you're not able to change. There's no hope that that means that you're faded to what you have and that's not true.

[01:15:57] Yes. Some of us start [01:16:00] on the 50 yard line. Some of us start in the 10 yard line. Some of us start in the one yard line, but everyone can get to the goal. Okay. It might be harder for you.

[01:16:13] Oh, award from food. Like some people do, but you are still able to make changes. You, you have free will, you can do that. Um, but. Take look at responsibility as freedom. Responsibility is freedom to

[01:16:30] Carl Lanore: [01:16:30] change. Yeah, it's in your control. I want to take our last commercial break. We have a couple of questions from viewers, and I want to ask you your opinion of, uh, of the continuous glucose monitors.

[01:16:41] Do they have a place? I just finished a 15 day stint with one. And it's fascinating. What food? I, nothing. I eat spikes my blood sugar. It's, it's amazing to me, but that's just me stay tuned. We'll be right back with more of lane Norton. Welcome back. We [01:17:00] have a couple of questions we're going to answer. Well, first my question.

[01:17:02] What do you think of the CGM?

[01:17:05] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:17:05] Uh, honors? I think probably useful for some people who are, um, you know, type two diabetics or borderline type two diabetics, um, In the long run. If you lose weight, as you said, Carl, like you don't, you're nothing really spikes your blood sugar. That's because you're very insulin sensitive because you lost that weight.

[01:17:25] Um, but I think people in the initial timeframe, if they're, you know, very concerned, we're trying to get their blood glucose down. I think that's fine. Um, I think that again, if they lose enough weight, Most of them will have low flat they'll have normal fasting blood glucose and become insulin sensitive.

[01:17:45] And they won't, they won't have to worry about that because I mean, when you lose weight, one thing people don't understand is one of the biggest reasons you become more insulin sensitive is because of your fat cells, not because of your skeleton. Also your skeletal muscle is usually pretty insulin sensitive, right?

[01:17:58] Your fat cells become more insulin [01:18:00] sensitive. And that means they can clear that glucose, which. You could perceive as a negative thing, but it also means that like, if you're a lean person and you've got these kind of so small, I've done adipocytes in the last 10 years, a small Atticus bites are very insulin sensitive.

[01:18:17] Uh, large adipocytes are very insulin resistant, which also just completely blows apart the carbohydrate insulin model obesity. Um, because if your, uh, large adipocytes are insulin resistant,

[01:18:32] Carl Lanore: [01:18:32] We, we, we, we lost, we lost you. Uh, you, you, you, you dropped out, you said if your large adipocytes are insulin resistant, pick it up from there.

[01:18:40] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:18:40] Yeah. So you would actually like, it'd be easier to lose weight, which is what we do see is if you, if you're. If you're overweight, it actually tends to be easier to lose weight, at least initially before, you know, increment Malec annotation, those sorts of things.

[01:18:53] Um, so I think continuous glucose monitors are fine. I think there are a reasonable, you know, tool, especially if somebody is wanting to get their [01:19:00] blood glucose under control. Um, you know, if they're like high risk or they've just had some kind of health problem recently, uh, but in the end for most people, the, the weight loss is going to be what actually improves their overall, um, Uh, you know, insulin sensitivity and

[01:19:14] Carl Lanore: [01:19:14] whatnot.

[01:19:15] Okay. So, um, Robert, Tom, Cindy is asking, first of all, how do you feel about dairy in general? And then he's saying is whole milk healthier than 2% or skim? The recommendations today are conflicting.

[01:19:31] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:19:31] So here's the problem. You have to define what healthy means. Right? So healthy is kind of a nebulous term.

[01:19:37] And I always tell people if it can mean anything, it means nothing. Um, but without going down that rabbit hole, um, I would say that, um, I think whole milk is probably fine, but it is very calorie dense. Uh, it does have a high saturated fat content. Um, Most of the studies that are kind of conflicting, are these different, um, [01:20:00] observational studies or cross-sectional studies?

[01:20:03] I think I would say on balance. Um, if we're looking at like the risk of heart disease, cancer, uh, and weight loss, Probably skim or 2% is a better choice only from the perspective that there's less saturated fat and there's less total calories. Um, that certainly doesn't mean that you can never have, you know, whole milk.

[01:20:23] Um, it's just, you know, if it's something that you're having a lot of, then you'd probably want to, uh, consume, it'd be likely eating lean meat versus very fatty meat, right? Like you can have a fatty steak every once in a while, but if you're eating it all the time, it's going to be really hard to. You know, to, to, to lose weight or keep it off.

[01:20:40] Um, and as far as dairy goes, you know, there's lot of you make claims about dairy. I think a lot of this comes from. Uh, honestly, uh, vegans, um, who wants people to stop torturing area? Yeah. So, uh, if you look at the research, I mean, people who eat more, who drink more [01:21:00] dairy are leaner stronger, uh, have better bone mineral density.

[01:21:05] Um, you know, people say, Oh, well, you know, prostate cancer, this and that. That's really only associated with whole milk. And probably just because of the saturated fat content, if your whole, if your total daily saturated fat content is reasonable. The bowl. I don't think you really need to have much

[01:21:19] Carl Lanore: [01:21:19] time. I would also submit it.

[01:21:21] I'm not, I'm, I'm not studious about this stuff as you. And what I'm about to say is maybe anecdotal, but I would also submit that milk is probably involved. Uh, only from the standpoint of obesity. I, I have a feeling that obese men. I have a higher rate of prostate cancer in general. Um, and then when they, Oh, well, you know, they do these studies and they, well, do you drink milk?

[01:21:45] Yeah, I do. You know, it's like, okay. So that's correlates. Uh, did they ever do a study where they showed that the milk is causing prostate

[01:21:53] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:21:53] cancer? Yeah, they control for a few variables, but again, I think it's probably more so the saturated fat content. So if you're a [01:22:00] total daily saturated fat, you know, like if you want to have whole milk, for example, well, maybe that means you're not eating ribeye for your meat.

[01:22:06] You know what I mean? Um, it, it, it's a balance. It's a budget now again, when we try to look at isolated nutrients, we're just really disappointed with the results that what you see is, is there's patterns of eating. Patterns of eating that are healthy or unhealthy. So if you take somebody, you know, people talking about processed food, you can have processed food and be just fine.

[01:22:27] But most people who are, you know, eat the Western diet, eating a lot of processed food that is calorically dense, over consuming calories, not exercising. They're more likely to smoke. They're more likely to drink. They just have overall really unhealthy lifestyle behaviors. Right, right. Somebody who's not exercising an hour or two a day.

[01:22:46] You get enough sleep, you limit your stress, you control your calories. You don't like some of this other stuff, just stop worrying about it. Right. It doesn't matter relation. Right. A great example of this was there [01:23:00] was a recent cohort study in Alberta, Canada, where, you know, all these studies show that, you know, um, red meat is associated associated with like, uh, cancer incidents.

[01:23:11] Right. And so they did, they did what they did was they had, um, Different core tiles. I think of red meat intake and fruit and vegetable intake. And what they found was that at the highest level of fruit and vegetable intake and the highest level of meat intake, there was no difference in cancer risk compared to the lowest intake of meat when vegetables, fruits, and vegetables were high interest.

[01:23:39] Okay. So now, if you were at the low intakes of fruit and vegetables, And high and compared the meat intakes, um, you had higher risk of cancer in high meat, low fruits and vegetables versus low meat, low fruits and vegetables. But this points, the fact that it's eating patterns that determine our outcomes, [01:24:00] people who eat a lot of meat, tend to eat less fruits and vegetables.

[01:24:02] Okay. And they also tend to have other unhealthy lifestyle behaviors. So you can make that argument for like whole milk and whatnot. So it's one of those things where we, I really, I was biochemistry major as an undergraduate, so I love mechanisms, you know, like that stuff I got over. But when you try to do isolated mechanisms to translate it into whole body results, man, it's just, it just gets super disappointing.

[01:24:28] When you look at the research, it really. I think the human body is so redundant and so robust. And that's why we've been here so long. W you know, through millions of years of evolution, that it for you to get unhealthy, barring some kind of genetic mutation or something. It takes a lot, like it actually think about what has to happen for you to become type two diabetic.

[01:24:50] Like you really have to beat on your body for a while for a Dick.

[01:24:53] Carl Lanore: [01:24:53] You know what I mean, years and years and years,

[01:24:56] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:24:56] exactly years. Right? 10 years of beating on your body with unhealthy [01:25:00] habits and lifestyle, right. That's a long time. I mean, you can, you know, think about unhealthy spending habits. You can drain a 401k pretty darn quick.

[01:25:07] You know, human body is very robust. I mean, even smoking, you start smoking. It's not like tomorrow you're going to fall over dead. Right? The human body is very robust. So I want people to think about eating patterns. So people say, can I have red meat? Can I have this. You probably have most anything as long as it's, you know, moderation and your Bower and on balance, you're also eating a lot of other healthy and you're doing

[01:25:31] Carl Lanore: [01:25:31] a lot of those other things, right.

[01:25:33] You're doing the right place to sleep and everything

[01:25:35] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:25:35] else. My top six, I think it's six. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Um, so here's my, here's my rules to live. As long as you can, based on your genetics, um, don't eat like an asshole don't smoke limit, alcohol consumption. Get enough sleep, limit your stress, sorry.

[01:25:54] Five Oh, and exercise, exercise six and exercise weight. Further up the chain. It could be [01:26:00] number one or number two, right. Stains your 99% of the way there. Okay. And then that now we can start arguing about some of this other stuff. So bill

[01:26:08] Carl Lanore: [01:26:08] Bergman, he asks us in three different segments. So he says, uh, he S is there a skinny, fat solution for ectomorphs?

[01:26:16] Um, I lost eight pounds and haven't lost any belly. Fat really? What should I do? Uh, and I'm not overweight at all. Can I take a shot at this? Cause I think I've absorbed a lot of intelligence from this interview. So here's what I think you should do. I think you should get the carbon app. Did I do that right?

[01:26:36] Am I right? Am I right?

[01:26:41] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:26:41] Um, so bill, I think one of the things to keep in mind is that. You probably have lost some belly fat. It just may not be visually apparent to you. Um, if we went in and did an MRI of your stomach, I would bet that you've lost some belly fat, um, So I, I think there's a couple things to unpack with this. So [01:27:00] first off the body types, like ectomorph, mesomorph endomorph, that's been disproven, um, that there really aren't those sorts of body types.

[01:27:08] And in fact, um, there's a graphic out there where you can see Christian bale in different movie roles and you can see them looking like an ectomorph. A mesomorph and an endomorph, depending on what he's doing with his resistance training and this diet, um, same thing for, um, uh, Jared Leto, like Jared Leto has been like a NACAC and movies.

[01:27:26] He's been muscular and movies, and he's also been like obese and movies. Right. So, you know, you can manipulate your body to look like any one of those. Um, now as far as skinny fat, I think that there's. You know, that's probably somebody who just is a low responder to resistance exercise. Right? So those do exist.

[01:27:46] People who don't gain muscle as quickly as people who are high responders to resistance exercise. So first off I would say, you know, bill, make sure you're doing an evidence-based resistance training program. Because that's going to do more for enhancing your body [01:28:00] composition than anything else out there I find.

[01:28:02] So you will get hung up on diet and they don't even pay attention to the resistance training. Uh, and, and if you're interested, we do have a product for that on my website called the Biolayne workout builder, which, um, puts together evidence-based, uh, training templates that take the guesswork out of it for you 1299 a month.

[01:28:20] Um, and then as far as diet wise, you know, everyone has areas of body fat that they don't lose as quickly from. And I, I wish we had an easy way to remedy that, but for the most part, it's just, if it's, if it's an area like for me, it's my lower back and my abdominals and glutes when I'm, when I'm getting released for a contest.

[01:28:39] Um, and I just have to dye it for longer. It just, it sucks. It's the fact, some people lose it like really easily distributed. Good for them. Um, it may just be the last place you lose it from I'm afraid. Yeah, I

[01:28:53] Carl Lanore: [01:28:53] agree with that. But, uh, but again, these apps are there. You know, another thing is it's kind of like [01:29:00] that old joke.

[01:29:01] Hey God, let me win the lottery every night I pray and I, and I never win. And then God says, Hey, well, why don't you help me out and buy a ticket? You know, people want advice and they want help. And then you say, well, this, this happened this app. If you're not willing to plunk down a couple of bucks to increase your knowledge and knowledge, everything we're talking about here is knowledge-based.

[01:29:21] I I'm a big believer that if I buy a book and I get one thing out of that whole entire book that stays with me, that was a worthwhile buy for me. And, you know, I, it's not supplements. Okay. It's it's knowledge, it's knowledge and an app like this or the other one, the workout app. It'll give you the knowledge.

[01:29:41] You may not have to subscribe forever. You may only have to subscribe for a six months or a year because once you get that pattern, then you're on autopilot. Just like I was when I was a fat bastard, I was on all. I used to go through Wendy's and I would go to the girl, give me three double stacks on one button.

[01:29:59] She'd say [01:30:00] what? Yeah. I want six patties on, on one button. Because I didn't want to eat all the bread. I thought like, I, that's how I resolved by guilt. I had a diet Dr. Pepper and I didn't eat all the bread buddy had a burger about this big.

[01:30:14] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:30:14] Yeah. Well, you'd probably save yourself a few hundred calories. So there is that, um, you know, that's, that's one of the things, I mean, honestly, um, our app is great.

[01:30:24] Um, the workout is great. If you're somebody who's struggling with like really long-term habits, behaviors, Honestly, my book felt lost forever. I've had so much feedback from people who have lost over a hundred pounds after reading that book and people who have told me, there's actually a guy who lives right here in Tampa named, um, Tommy.

[01:30:43] Uh, and he, he was actually a musician who almost died. Like he was in diabetic ketoacidosis. Um, he almost died and his friend. Told him, Hey, you gotta check out a lane. So I actually used to train in the same gym as his friend, um, bill and [01:31:00] bill was like, you should check out lane stuff. And you know, we too, we talked now quite frequently, but he's like the other day he told me, he's like, man, when I read your book, he's like, it just, it made everything click for me in terms of why I got this way.

[01:31:14] Why? And he's like, it wasn't judgemental, you know, it wasn't, you know, pushing any particular diet as the end all be all. It was just presenting the information in a very palatable way. And so again, I, you know, I don't want to, I truly believe in the products I sell and I mean, I sell supplements too. You know, we have a line called nutrition, but yeah.

[01:31:33] I will never tell people that supplements are the answers to their problems. Right. You know, I look at supplements and that's like the very tip of the iceberg, right? Like train a little harder, recover a little faster. Right. So if that's important to you, great

[01:31:47] Carl Lanore: [01:31:47] gives you an extra two, 3% of progress that you're looking for.

[01:31:50] So if every, if people want to go and they want to buy the app, they want to buy the book. They want to buy the supplements. Do, do they go to biolayne.com?

[01:31:58] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:31:58] Yeah, so we have, uh, [01:32:00] so we have somebody different products and whatnot. We actually have a landing page that shows everything that we sell. So if you just go to biolayne.com/iag, uh, that will bring up everything, but the app is joined carbon.com.

[01:32:17] The book is fat loss forever. I also have a, a competition prep book called the complete contest prep guide of the complete reverse diet and got her, sorry, my wife and I wrote that together. The complete reverse dieting guide, uh, there was something to line out where nutrition, and then I also have, um, a couple of courses for coaches called the science of nutrition and training the physique athlete.

[01:32:37] And I'm actually currently working on putting together, um, a coaching certification. Uh, that will likely be accredited. Um, so for, for people out there that will be focused on body composition specifically. So those are, those are kind of what we sell and what we're doing. And, um, you know, we're, we're trying to make, uh, we also have a team of coaches that we've also trained.

[01:32:58] So if you feel like you need [01:33:00] like more one-on-one support. We actually have a promotion running that right now called the diet and lifestyle remodel challenge. We, we hate normal, like eight week fat loss challenges. We don't, we didn't want to call it that. So that's why we call it the diet and lifestyle remodel because our coaches, when they take on people, they're trying to teach them the habits and behaviors so that they don't need to stay with this coach forever.

[01:33:24] Did they, you know, we're trying to, we try, we always say, we try to teach people how to fish. We don't want to

[01:33:28] just,

[01:33:28] Carl Lanore: [01:33:28] it's going to say, teach a man to fish. That's exactly what I was just going to say. Okay. Yeah.

[01:33:32] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:33:32] It's beneficial. If you give them a fish eats for a day, teach him about a fish, eats for a lifetime, right.

[01:33:37] And that's kind of what we do. So we have a promotion right now where you can get 16 weeks of coaching for the price of 12 plus free access to the Biolayne workout builder. And you're entered in a competent and a chance to win an all expenses paid trip to Tampa and come hang out with us for a weekend.

[01:33:52] Um, so yeah, it's a pretty cool promotion. And, um, you know, if they're interested in that they go to biolayne.com/coaching [01:34:00] and, uh, and they can send an inquiry. And if they do that by the 31st, um, and sign up by the 31st, then they can get in on that. So it's, uh, it's a pretty cool, we have a pretty cool spectrum of stuff we do, and we're really trying to possibly affect as many people as we can.

[01:34:15] Carl Lanore: [01:34:15] Right. Well, look, it's been great to visit with you again, and, uh, I do want to have you back on the show again. I'm sure I'll get questions from the audience. If you have questions for, for lane, uh, send them to on This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and we'll, we'll get them back on the air. It's uh, it's been too long.

[01:34:32] Let's not do that anymore. Okay.

[01:34:34] Dr. Layne Norton, Ph.D.: [01:34:34] Yeah, for sure. I've always enjoyed our

[01:34:36] Carl Lanore: [01:34:36] conversations and you take care of yourself and we'll talk again soon. Okay, bro, if you call, thank you. Take care. All right. That's it for today. I'm off tomorrow because we'll be prepping for casual Friday. Uh, Alyssa and I are very excited to bring that show back to you.

[01:34:50] Uh, so, uh, tomorrow, no show, but Friday don't miss it live right here. The lovely and talented Elisa Profumo we'll back on the air with me, uh, for an episode of casual [01:35:00] Friday, if you have any topics you want us to cover on the show. Uh, send them to casual This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. Uh, see everyone Friday, share the show, share the show.

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