p1 Show #2669 - DIALOGUE edit

Of Fathers & Sons
with Eddie Gallagher

Carl:
Today we are joined by Eddie Gallagher. How are you doing Eddie?

Eddie:
I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on Carl

Carl:
I know a lot of people want to talk to you about a lot of things, but I'm wondering how many people want to talk to Eddie Gallagher about raising children.

Eddie:
I don't get those questions often and I'm glad to talk about something different.

Carl:
And it's actually very important. I mean, we all recognize that men are under attack today. if you're, if you're a masculine man, there's something wrong with you. We have a lot of blurring of the gender lines today and men seem to be treated more like terrorists than contributors to society today.  I'm sure you see this as well right?

Eddie:
Oh, yeah. I mean, you see all over the place in today's society and in the media, but it's also crept into today's military, unfortunately. The way I was raised in the military compared to young kids today, and the way they're being raised. I think there's a fine balance, but I definitely think they're going to the other extreme and like you said, it's taking away from what men were made to do and that's protect.

Carl:
So you're a world traveler; are other countries trying to overtly feminize their boys into weaker men.

Eddie:
No, You know, the countries that I've been to, I, you don't see that. And that's because those countries have real problems. You know, they focus on those real problems. I think inAmerica, we have it so good here that we create problems. We create things to bicker about, you know, now we've created genders. For me, my personal opinion, there's a boy and a girl, there's only two genders, but somehow they've managed to, I, you know, I don't know what the number of genders they have now, but, I'm like, what are we actually arguing about here? I mean, that's just how good we have it. We have to create problems.

Carl:
Now, now, today, we're talking about raising boys, but you also have a daughter. Let's see. So you have your youngest boy is Ryan correct? Then you have an older boy.

Eddie:
Yeah. So Ryan's 11. Trevon's 20. And then my daughter, Ava is turning 17 this week.

Carl:
And now that you're retired, you get to spend a lot more time with them. And that's a wonderful thing too. So you, you grew up just North of me. I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. You grew up in Indiana, right?

Eddie:
That's right, well, I, I actually grew up all over the world. My dad was in the army so I moved around every two years until high school. I ended up in Indiana, Fort Wayne, Indiana, and joined the military.

Carl:
So then you already answered the question who influenced you the most as a young boy? I bet it was your dad, huh?

Eddie:
Yeah, I definitely would have to say my dad and my mom as well. You know, traveling around being a military brat, moving around every two years is not the easiest. With my dad's profession he was gone as most military members are, doing the job or deploying. But he always managed when he was home to make time for myself and my brother, He never brought home work with him, you know, you wouldn't even know he was in the military, unless every once in a while, he'd show up in his uniform or he'd take us to work. Then my mom, on the other half, she was a strong military spouse who put up with the rigorous traveling and the demands of the army. And she, she did a hell of a job. Everywhere we went, she set up home and made sure we were taken care of. And because we moved around every two years and there was only four of us we remained a pretty tight unit, as a family, we were always protective of each other. I think a lot of growing up like that definitely influenced me to obviously do the job that I did and also raise a family

Carl:
I forgot to say, I want to thank you for your service. And I don't even know if, when people say that to you, it really has the gravity that it should, because I always feel like people say that like almost, you know, God bless you. And they don't even believe in God when somebody sneezes, but I don't want to insult the fact that people should probably say to you, thank you. And your family for your service, because Andrea is that strong rocket at home. She's the anchor at home when you’re overseas. So it really is a family contribution.

Eddie:
Oh, that's exactly what it is. I mean, Andrea has been the rock in our family for the past 13 years, since we've been married and that's what it takes, you know, when people say thank you for your service, I'm completely grateful for it. I’m glad they're thanking me, but you know, it was my pleasure. I enjoyed every day that I was in for 20 years (minus the last two,) I wouldn't have been able to do my job without a strong wife at home taking care of the kids in the home front and making sure everything's getting done.

Carl:
Yeah, because then you could be there with a clear head. You don't have to worry, like if you have to worry about what's going on at home while you're out there, then, then it's a losing proposition entirely.

Eddie:
Exactly.

Carl:
So, who contributed the most to what you think a good father is. A lot of times there are other people in our lives when we're young, like, like my father didn't want to hunt, but my friend Joey's father hunted and he took me hunting. So he taught me to love hunting. Did you have other contributors besides your dad and your mom?

Eddie:
Throughout my childhood, yeah, there were other male influences in and out. Like I said, I moved around every two years growing up on military bases there were friends of my dad that were in the service and they would take us out. I was big into boy Scouts when I was little. So, I mean, that was, that was definitely influential. It was back when it was the real boy Scouts where we'd actually go on long hikes and camping and everything was sort of a kick in the ass. So that influenced me as well as the men that actually took the time to take us out and teach us things like shooting, learning how to camp learning, how to survive… they were big influences.

Carl:
Do you think it's different disciplining boys than it is girls? You have a daughter, you have a unique perspective here.

Eddie:
Yeah, and I'm, I'm learning that as I go. I grew up where my mom was the only female in the household. It was just, me and my younger brother and my dad so I. I didn't really grow up around any sisters or anything like that. The discipline in the house was done by both parents, but I think it's a little bit easier when you have two boys. What I'm learning now is that disciplining my daughter involves a lot more talking. It involves a lot more delving into why she's feeling a certain way. That's just what I've learned about the way females communicate. My oldest son brought this to my attention not that long ago, he's like, you know Ava, his sister, she gets treated differently when she gets in trouble or whatever, you know, or things like that. And I was like, yeah, because she's a girl and it's different. I have to talk to her. If I yell at her or, you know, if I'm stern with her, like I am with the boys, it doesn't work. It doesn't compute with her. Then she'll just, spiral down even more think I’m being mean, which I don't even think I’m being mean. it’s, it's been a learning process for me and I'm like, okay when I have to talk to my daughter, I go in there with a different mindset than I would with my boys. With my boys, it's more fire and forget, like, get this done, you know, if you don't get it done, you're going to pay the man. They understand that, it's just definitely different. I’m, more kid gloves with my daughter.

Carl:
Did you think being in the military and being a dad in the military, with he level of commitment and responsibilities, translated to your fathering skills ?

Eddie:
I would think so but I also think in the military, being a task master and getting things done, there was no room for failure. We try to do everything right the first time. And then if you do fail, you're going to get hammered on where as being a parent, you will fail, you will mess up. You're a human. In the military, if I messed up, I would be extra hard on myself, be pretty frustrated and I was taking that same idea when I was raising my kids - you know, if things didn't work out a certain way between me and them then I’d get down on myself, but I've learned that, you know, it's not the way. It's also good for them to see you fail or them to see you vulnerable and be like, Hey, you know what? I did mess up on this. I could have done this better. It helps them grow as humans and family.

Carl:
Are there any non-negotiable rules of household, as far as the boys go? I figured out you got to pick your fights. Otherwise you're going to be fighting about everything. When I was raising my kids, I looked at things like, okay, this will put them in harms way. That's absolutely not going to happen. This is, you know, I'm not going to fight about this.

Eddie:
Well, I mean, first and foremost, you know, you treat women with respect. You never raise your hand to a woman and if you can help it never raise your voice to a woman and that's, nonnegotiable. My youngest son and my daughter definitely fight all the time. One time when my youngest son took a swing at her, I was like, that's the last time you'll ever do something like that. He took that to heart. That's a big non-negotiable.The other non-negotiable rule is church. We go to church every Sunday. We had a conversation with my daughter, not too long ago, she wanted to work. She, works at the restaurant down the street, but we're like, Nope. So that's also a non-negotiable.

Carl:
I grew up going to church every Sunday with my father. For you is it as much the relationship with God and Jesus, or is it the fact that you make commitments in life and you stick to them and or are both of these equally important when it comes to church?

Eddie:
I think they're both equally important, I want them all to have a relationship with God. And you know, when you’re young going to church and I was, raised Irish Catholic, where it's every Sunday, no matter what there were a lot of days we'd go and we didn't want to go and there's always a production, not in a good mood when we got there, but the point is, we go, no matter what. I also think that brings the family closer together. Especially nowadays there's so many distractions out in the world with iPhones and social media and whatnot. You can lose your kids in a heartbeat if you don't make time with and make them, spend time with the family. Put the phone down, focus on what's important. So that's why we say is church is nonnegotiable. Kids may opt out of some family things that they have, you know, a job or something else to do, but church is not one of them.

Carl:
And those learning moments come up. Do you think that there are certain qualities that are most important for young boys to learn in order to be successful, productive men later on in life?

Eddie:
Oh yeah, for sure. I think the one thing that I see with my children or my two boys is you always look somebody in the face, you always look at them in the eyes when you talk to them I don't care what, how old they are. You show respect and you'll get respect. That's number one. And then, confidence, My kids are ultra confident and that's from my wife. My wife is the most confident person I have ever seen. It’s huge as well as not to let anybody tear them down. You know, just because somebody says you're negative It doesn't mean that, you are, that's the end of the road. Learn to ignore the negative and focus on the positive, on everything that you do. I think the other one is doing things that are adverse. Adversity is huge. Pushing yourself, Do things that make you uncomfortable. It’s always a fight to try and get the kids to do stuff like that. But once they have done it and accomplished whatever adversity that we're going through, they, they always feel a hundred times better on the other side. They've learned that they can push themselves to a certain limit.

Carl:
You have a very level demeanor. I've seen you in the news, you know, when all this stuff was happening and you seem to have this sense of calm, is that what you like that as a young boy, or is that from being put into positions and being trained as a high level operator? Were you always that way as a young boy as well? Is that something that you learned?

Eddie:
That's something that I learned over time in the military as well. Where as a young boy, I was a wild kid. I wasn't the best behaved. I wasn't the best in school. I was always out and about doing things I shouldn't or not paying attention to things I should. I think I just needed direction. And that's what the military gave me when I joined, they gave me direction. Through my course in the military, I learned emotional control. especially when doing the job, you have to control your emotions. And I think that's just transferred over since I've gotten out. The second you let your emotions get the better of you, or you fly off the handle about something that you don't agree with, you’ve just lost whatever conversation or argument that you're in, because now the person's like, well, this person's just letting his emotions get the better of him, and he's probably not thinking clearly right now. So I definitely have learned, emotional control over my course. Especially in the seal teams with everything that we're put through and have to do, and we're asked to do. So yeah, I think that that definitely has had an impact on me.

Carl:
That has to help, as a father too, because I remember those moments where I became the ahole in the room and you're right, I, I lost, even if I was right, the second I acted like that, then I was the problem. So that has to help you, being a father -that you just don't go from zero to 60 then.

Eddie:
Exactly. Yeah. And you know, not to say that I haven't done that in the past where, you know, I think everybody has their breaking point, no matter what stress they have, but you know, you can see it, like if you lose control and you start yelling or throwing a fit about something, you know, the kids or your kids looking at you 24 seven. That's another thing for parents, especially new parents - your kids are constantly looking at you, no matter what, no matter what you think. And they're going to mimic exactly what they're seeing. So you have to think about that all the time, how you react to situations, because the way you react is the way they're going to react and the way you treat people, is the way they're going to treat people.

Carl:
One of the problems that men have today is they love to say that we're aggressive, you know, toxic masculinity. The reality is that part of our evolutionary trajectory depended on men being aggressive. Otherwise we'd all be starving in a cave somewhere and no one would have goneout hunting. Do you talk to the boys about aggression when it's appropriate? When it's not.

Eddie:
Oh, I do - with young boys, that's always a conversation you're going to have as they get older. They hit a certain age and they start getting filled with testosterone and everything else, they want to release some aggression. It's just like we talked about before with the controlled emotion, also controlled aggression, there is a time for it. My youngest son has a very similar personality to me. He would get in fights all the time at school and that's because we put out, don't let anybody mess with you. He took that of course to the next level. It was like, well, this person messes with me, they're going to get the business. So then I had to have a sit down and talk with him. I'm like, you know, not everybody deserves to go fist to cuffs or get their beak wrapped just because they said something to you.Give that person a chance to either leave you alone or talk it out. I've had to go into my kids school a couple of times after fights where they've said, “we told them to stop two or three times they didn’t.” and then he ended up whacking one of them. I’ll tell them, well, that's on me, that’s how I raised him and that's how I will continue to raise him. Y I raise my kids to solve their own problems. We've had multiple talks about that. I think we're, making headway on it or my kids, you know, especially my youngest is learning to stay away from getting in fights, but at the same time, also sticking up for himself and sticking up for others.

Carl:
Yeah, and that's not a popular attitude to have today. I remember when I was raising my kids, you weren't supposed to slap them but hit them on the butt. I mean, my father used to give me beating, but you know what, you know, I worked on the racetrack and when you had an unruly horse, they tell the jockey, take them out and straighten them out. What that meant was you take them out on their track and you just go to work to him with the whip. One time you just whack him everywhere. The horse is dancing around. He doesn't know where the whip is coming from. Then every time you want that horse straighten out, you just got to show them the whip and he straightens right out. You never have to hit him again. My father used to wallop me, I guess he kicked me up a flight of stairs one time for breaking somebody's window and I was wrong, but today he would have been put in jail for that, and that's why we have kids today that just do whatever they want.

Eddie:
These days you gotta think of a different mode to punish them because of the world we live innow. So what we've figured out is you take away their time or take away their phones because that's the stuff that all these kids want to do is be on their phones or play games. Years ago if my kids did something I just beat them through physical exercise,

Carl:
My next question is “Do you want your boys to be involved in physical culture as a life choice?” Or what about even joining the military? Do you ever say, Hey, look, if you want to, you want to, or do you try to discourage them in this day and age?

Eddie:
I don't encourage them to join the military. I want them to do what they want to do. They know that I loved being in the military. Most of the males in my family, before me were in the military.That's a choice they have to make. Both my sons have shown interest in joining. My oldest just brought to my attention that he wants to join the army. And this kid you a genius. He straight, A's getting a degree in chemistry, but I think he wants to serve, he wants to serve his country in some form or fashion. And that was a huge compliment for me because I've never pushed that on him. I think when he sees me lead by example, he’s like, okay, well, I want to do that too. He knows how important serving your country is to me and then my youngest of course, wants to be a Navy seal. it's what he's been wanting to be since he was little. I leave that up to him. I told him I'd help him if he wants to start training for it, but he has to make up in his own mind if he's ready for that.

Carl:
Do you give the boys latitude to disagree with you?

Eddie:
Well, I would say they can disagree. My youngest, not so much because he's not at that level yet to have conversations where he can disagree and try to prove his point. But my oldest, for sure. He's a junior in college and he's come back and sort of had conversations with both me and my wife about what is being taught in college, which is often the opposite of how we raised them. We'll hear them out and we'll have these conversations back and forth with him, about why we disagree with him. It's a very educated conversation. I that's the way I want him. I want him to grow up to be able to talk to. Be able to agree to disagree, which I think as a society we've lost that concept. Like, just because you don't agree with me or I don't agree with you, it doesn't mean we cannot get along and be friends.

Carl:
Right. I agree. A hundred percent. A lot of times when boys go through puberty, in order to search for autonomy, They sometimes they'll challenge their fathers. I remember I did, and it, it didn't last long, but there was that point in time where I felt like I needed to puff my chest out and be a man when I was young to kind of break away from my father. I don't know if you experienced that when you were young, but a lot of boys do, do you, have you dealt with that?, How would you deal with it?

Eddie:
I definitely dealt with it when I was young. I remember specifically, going through that when I was younger, trying to, demand I’m the man in the house now, until I was whacked back down reminded that I wasn’t. My oldest son. I really didn't have that a chance to see him go through that. I was gone 90% of the year for, the past 20 years. He was such an amazing kid though. He never really tried to defy myself or my wife. I think I can remember a couple of times when I was home, where there might be something going on, but as soon as I stepped in the room, he would automatically calm down and be like, okay, whatever you say, My youngest, he’s already getting to that age. He’s 11, but I can see it, he he'll try and push back a little bit, when I tell him to go do something. I definitely see that and I don't, I think the key, well, for me is I don't automatically snap back at him. Like, you know, how dare you disagree or how dare you try and challenge me. I'll just, I'll let him. Sorta hang himself a little bit and give him enough rope. Then I'm like, okay, do you see where you went wrong? And he's like, Oh yeah. Okay. And you, you see the, who's the man of the house. Yes. All right. And I'll get up and say go do your chores. I think that's just natural, you know, like we talked about earlier, once they get to a certain age, Their bodies start changing and they start getting testosterone flowing through them. They want to prove themselves. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's good. I know. I love them. I let them do that. I think there's a fine line though. My youngest son likes to challenge other males as well. He's just got that. He's like, Oh yeah? If he doesn't agree with what they're saying. I'll definitely let him know not to disagree with other grown males. If they tell him to do something, he doesn't agree with them. Come to me first.

Carl:
so he's actually challenging other people, other men, wow.

Eddie:
He's got an attitude,

Carl:
It's not the worst thing in the world in my humble opinion, because I kind of feel like you're less likely to get pushed around, but you will get pushed back and you'll learn your limits at some point in time.

Eddie:
I think every boy needs to know his limits. I can give you a good story: When my youngest was eight years old, we were playing basketball, and my oldest son too. We were at, we were at the basketball courts and I could see my youngest son get into an argument with a boy in the neighborhood. And my youngest son picked that argument and he picked a fight. I could hear what was going on. He and this kid were mounting back and forth to each other and they were like, Oh, you want to fight? And they both agreed that they were going to fight. Well, my youngest son kept looking over at me. He knew I was there, which is why he was puffing up his chest. And the other kid looked at me and I was like, well, all right, you guys go at it.  My youngest son got his butt whooped and he kept looking over at me to help. Afterwards I stood him up. I'm like you started that. You ran your mouth. This is what happens when you run your mouth and it was a lesson learned for him.

Carl:
As a father that had to be so tough, but what you did was so right. A lot of men wouldn't have the courage to let that happen, but it was so right, because when that happens at a young age, now, all of a sudden you say yourself, well, let me think about this before I start acting like this and what could happen because it's happened once before and having it happen at a young age is a lot better than in your thirties at a nightclub where somebody's going to shim you as you're walking out the door.

Eddie:
Exactly. It makes them think twice before opening their mouth or. Involving themselves in a situation where they should not be involved.

Carl:
Absolutely. We've got lots more to talk about and we'll get to also talk about Eddie's new book, the man in the arena. I’ve got to tell you something. It's one thing to have an editor reviewing your book, but you got the DOD review reviewing your book. That's an editor of a whole different type. So we've had the graphic up with Ryan there, but I want to put a picture of Trevon up real quick as well, you and Trevon so we give him some equal time. Nice dog. So those are those French Bulldogs.

Eddie:
Yeah, we got three of them.

Carl:
They're nice dogs. Really popular.

Eddie:
Yeah. They ware super awesome. We've got a whole family. So we had a mom and dad and bred them and we have the son. They're full of personality.

Carl:
So I have been doing a lot of death work lately, when my father passed away it became very like my mortality was like, Oh my God, I'm next. I didn't think about it until that second. And so I've really investigated death and I realized that we're really afraid of nothing more, I have this sense that if people understood their mortality earlier in life, they could get a lot more done and they'd enjoy their lives more. What about you? Do you think about mortality and do you ever talk to your boys about mortality in general, especially in the job that you had?

Eddie:
I mean, I think my kids got a full lesson in mortality in my career, They've been to more funerals and I have been too, in my entire span -All the teammates that I lost and more good friends and brothers. They were their uncles, they called them uncle, you know, whoever, it was. We had to watch them be put in the ground. I can't even comprehend what their mind state is at that young age. watching that go on and then also sending their dad back over to deploy over and over while his friends are dying doing the same job, They definitely understand mortality for sure. I think that going through that, they know that we're not on the earth forever and that we need to take care of ourselves. That comes down to just taking care of your, your own body and your mental state, and they they're watching. It's really awesome since I've been out. I took this whole first year of being out to take care of myself and to fix everything and all the injuries and everything that I gained over the past 20 years. It wasn't an easy road. They watched me struggle through it and they knew that I was trying to make myself a better person for them, that I wanted to finish out the rest of my life being the best human being I can for them. And I think they've taken that on as well. You can show them as much as possible and teach them as much as possible, but they're also going to learn along the way. They definitely exhibit signs that they know when to enjoy themselves. They know when to take a break, they know when to relax and they also know working out, taking care of your body is important as well.

Carl:
I’ve got to put this up there because we have a viewer Bill Bergman, who’s a fan of the show and he's been posting these and I want to put them up. He said, people sleep peaceafully in their beds at night only because tough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. Thank you for you, your service. The nation, which forgets its defenders will be itself forgotten.  And he wants me to tell you, he’s a big fan of yours. So there you go.

Eddie:
I appreciate that bill. Thanks a lot.

Carl:
So, before I ask the last question of the series, I want to ask you, have you ever seen the movie with Steve McQueen called Tom horn?

Eddie:
I have not.

Carl:
You’ve got to watch it because it's you. Tom horn was a famous Indian fighter at the turn of the century. They hired him to do the dirty work with the people that were violating citizens in cities. In fact, B Madison was the guy who hired him. And then after he got rid of all of their threats, they want to get rid of him. You gotta watch the movie. You'll relate. It's a great movie. It's an old movie. Obviously. Steve McQueen has been dead a long time, but, uh, it's, it's a great movie. So the last question I want to ask you in this episode of “Of Fathers and Sons” is: When you're gone, how do you want your boys to finish this sentence? “My dad was,…”

Eddie:
Hmm. that's a tough one. I think I want my kids to remember me as is someone who loved them, who put them first, most importantly, someone who loved their mother and put them first, someone who loved their, their family who was loyal to his family and not just them, but also my brother and my parents. I think if you have that base then everything else sort of falls into place. I also want them to remember me as someone who was compassionate towards certain individuals and also someone who wasn’t afraid to stand up and do the right thing, no matter how unpopular it was or how dangerous it was, that I was willing to give my life for this country and also for my family at any cost. That’s how I would want to be remembered most by my kids.

Carl:
That’s wonderful and I'm sure they will. And I think the nation will remember you that way as well. I have a saying that we die twice; once when our heart stops beating, and once again, when the last person alive who remembers us dies. I think that you're going to live a long, long, time because there are millions of people out there to whom you have become their hero. Really. I mean, I, I feel so fortunate to have you on the show. I'm so excited to be able to look you in the face and talk to you. Few people get that opportunity. I'm sure. You became a hero to many of us in this country because you actually embody what is good. What is right. And what still is smoldering under the dirt of this nation.

Eddie:
I appreciate that. That's, that's a huge compliment.

Carl:
We're talking right now with Eddie Gallagher, and we're going to talk about his new book. Do you think there's anybody who doesn't know your story out there, would you be surprised that someone didn’t?

Eddie:
I think, I think there's plenty of people that don't know the truth about it.

Carl:
Right because the media painted you a certain way. They painted you as this rogue guy, that did all these heinous things when really, it wasn't true and you were acquitted of everything.

Eddie:
President Trump restored my rank in the Navy since I won the case, The Navy had invested so much time and effort into persecuting me or prosecuting me however you want to put it, they were embarrassed when I was found not guilty by a jury of my peers. So they tried to double down and take away my retirement, which I'd been in almost for 20 years at that point. They were also going to take my child away from me and the president intervened and said, you will not be taking away his retirement. He's going to retire with everything that he earned. The media wanted to report a lie, which they do a lot of the time. And they said that he had pardoned me, which was not true at all.

Carl:
Thank you for clearing that up . So the book is called The Man in the Arena. from fighting ISIS to fighting for my freedom. Both you and your wife. Andrea worked on this book along with Andy Simons. It's now available in pre-order because it's still being reviewed by the department of defense. If you pre-order it, not only do you get a signed first edition copy signed by both Eddie and Andrea, but you get a challenge coin designed by Eddie and Andrea and a vintage free Eddie sticker and a poster card postcard from the Gallaghers. That's really a wonderful package of stuff.

Go to shrnetwork.biz/eddiegallagherbook

What will people learn in this book, Eddie?

Eddie:
You are going to learn the truth about everything that happened, I tell the story of the deployment in 2017 and then all of the events that happened afterwards, where I was, thrown away in military prison without charges. And eventually, three months in, they charged me with murder, murdering an ISIS terrorist, among many other charges they decided to make up and throw on there. How the media, the whole time was making me out to be some kind of warmonger and that all I wanted to do was go over there and kill people. Always painted me in this bad light. It was a pretty eye-opening as] we got firsthand exactly what fake news was. I chose to write this book because this is our side of the story which can also be construed as bias because it is my story, my side and my wife's side. A really cool thing I put in the book, are QR codes and people will be able to listen to the whole trial audio, all the S interviews, every one so you know, we have nothing to hide. Here's everything. Here's what the media didn't report it. I think people will be pretty amazed and shocked to see how much corruption and deceit was going on during my whole process  with them trying to put me away for life without parole just to make a political statement.

Carl:
You know, it's really sad what this country has come to. I'm sure a lot of people out there are worried. I'm worried, I'm worried what's going happen in this country. All of a sudden it doesn't feel like the United States anymore. It doesn't feel like a place where, “ that could never happen here.” I think we've all been saying that for so long and we've become complacent about what the powers that at work here have turned it into.

Eddie:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I definitely think we are still the greatest country in the world. I mean, even with all of our problems going on right now, these problems are minuscule if you compare them to other countries or other places in the world who have actual real problems. I think that the media gas lights both sides to make us turn on each other. If you paid attention to the news, no matter what you watch watch Fox or CNN, you would think that the world was ending and that we're at at the eminent break of civil war at any point. Yet if you just walk outside, talk to your neighbor, I have a neighbor here who is an avid Biden supporter. We get along just fine. We both have the same ideals and beliefs that we just want to make this country better for the younger generation or for our children. Yeah, the, the way we go about it might be a little bit different, but we get along. There's not enough of that. I think people are glued to the TV or glued to the phone, and they're getting gaslighted and they think that this side hates us and this side or the other side hates us and they disagree. We've lost the ability to agree to disagree. I can disagree with you on certain topics and still be your friend. I do think that if we don't come to some resolution at some point soon then yeah, it will just continue down this path and  it's not going to be good at all.

Carl:
You know, nine 11 did that for us. All of a sudden we unified around a common enemy. And there was no me and you. It was us. But wars don't do that anymore. I never heard the word Patriot in my household, I didn't realize it that we were a patriotic household. My father and his five brothers will all in world war two at the same time. They did a whole article about them in the Brooklyn newspaper, the fighting Lenore family, but they never told me, “we're Patriots”. It was their actions. We don't have that anymore. When war breaks out it's so twisted and convoluted and you don't know what's real and what's not that people even divide over. We shouldn't be there. We should be there. It's really a sad, sad situation. I guess aliens are going to have to land for all of us to go, okay, it's us against them now, you know?

Eddie:
Yeah. and you know, we have been at war for two decades now and that's the longest running war and I think there's a point where can only pay attention to a certain story for so long before it gets old and they're like, Ugh, that's that really still going on? Well, yes, this war in the middle East,- we’re going on two decades now. I think that was part of the problem with my case -you start having these politicians and these armchair quarterbacks, delving into what you're actually doing overseas. We've been doing that the same way the past two decades, but now all of a sudden it's, Oh, you're not treating the enemy nice enough or we don't like the way you kill the enemy this way. So therefore we're going to charge you with murder. It's pretty, it's insane to, to sit back and listen to, especially when I was going through it. We don't have a common enemy and now we're turning on each other. I don't think we should have to have a common enemy to unify anyway, but if that's what it takes you know,

Carl:
When you were going through all that stuff, I would say to people that I knew, do you think. ISIS does that when they kill or be-head of guy then post the video on all social media for all Americans to see -“Oh, look. This guy, killed his enemy and they wanna put him in jail. They gotta be laughing at us. They gotta be thinking to themselves, these Americans are idiots.

Eddie:
Oh, that's for sure. During the trial, at one point, I remembered the prosecutors kept putting the picture of the dead terrorist up and trying to get the jury and media and everybody to sympathize with this terrorist, like, Oh, you know, he was 17 and he was forced to join ISIS and this and that. I remember just leaning over to my lawyer, I think it was Mark Casey at the time. And, I was like, do you ever think this ISIS spider would have thought in a million years that he'd be all over American news? You know, being played in a trial, actually getting people to feel sorry for him and then they're going to throw away an American soldier for doing his job. It's completely insane, but that's where we're at. I think it's just like we talked about before, Americans have it so good that we have to create these problems, we want to create drama, It was that in a nutshell, nothing was done wrong, but they wanted to create something out of nothing and create this big story around it. We’re watching it unfold right in front of our eyes, but that's on us. We haveTo raise our sons, to be strong men to be men that can take on adversity and don't get beaten down and will do whatever it takes to get the job done.

Carl:
Is that an Mia bracelet you wear on your wrist?

Eddie:
No. This is a nine 11 bracelet. I had. Bracelets for all my friends that have been killed and if I wore them, they go halfway up my arm. So I chose this one because it represents everything that we were fighting for.

Carl:
So in probably 1970 let's say, during the Vietnam war, they had the pow Mia bracelets. I still have mine somewhere. The guy's name was Joe MacDonald. It was that same metal with the black, lettering and they never found the poor guy either.

Eddie:
Well, that's awesome that you're wearing his bracelet. This one was given to me by my friend, a great guy. Brilliant guy. Means a lot to me.

Carl:
Thank you so much for making time to come on the show.

Eddie:
No, I appreciate it, Carl. Thanks for having me

Carl:
Take care, of all the success in the world to you and your family.

----------------- 

Part 2

The World's Best Light Therapy
guest:  Patrick Johnson, Celluma

We're joined by Patrick Johnson, President and CEO of Biophotons. Biophoton makes an interesting product that we promote on this show. I want to tell people why I think it's the best in the world. The product is called Celluma.

Celluma is the best thing to come from the light therapy world, ever.  It is the greatest evolution of where this device should be today.  It is brilliant. Patrick, how did this come to be?

Patrick Johnson:  
Well, there you go. There's probably nothing I could add to that.  It's a long and sordid tale that dates back about 11 years when I was a very successful public company, corporate executive with the big house with the big view, the big cars and the big life...and I was miserable. I worked in the orthopedic segment of the medical device industry, and our company was very successful despite the fact that we were in the depths of the great recession.

I came to the conclusion that I wanted my professional and personal life to be about something more. I wanted to make a bigger contribution. So I quit my job, which I don't recommend at the height of a great recession in retrospect. I went looking for a nugget to build a company around that would be my professional capstone. Fifteen months later I stumbled upon clinical research into low-level light therapy and was struck by two things. The depth and breadth of the clinical research into low-level light therapy, and the institutions that were doing that research and the fact that it had never been really successfully commercialized. The clinical research came out of NASA. using light energy to counter the detrimental effects of zero gravity on the human body. A lot of people glommed onto that, but they only brought products to the market that mimic the technology, but didn't practice the science.

I saw that as a strategic opportunity to say let's design a device based on the science, not build a device and try to find science to support it. We took the best science and the ideas derived from my background in orthopedics and thermal devices we use post-op to manage pain and accelerate wound healing which contour and wrap to the area of treatment. intuitively it struck me that light therapy devices should do exactly the same thing. Optical physics, the inverse square law promotes the optimal delivery of light therapy, right at the surface of the skin. 

So, Celluma was born.

Carl Lanore:
My early career was optics. I went to school to be an optometrist, so I understand the nature of light and the physical nature of light. When I saw how you created this, I thought this is perfect because it's exactly perpendicular to the surface. You have the  most optical inertia to penetrate the skin as opposed to glazing off. It's really an amazing device. I use it because I have a little neuropathy and I notice a  big change real fast after using the Celluma device.

Patrick Johnson: [01:00:04]
I teach an entire class on the myths of low-level light therapy because there's so much urban mythology created around the science, most of it created by clever marketing directors of led light companies. A lot of what we've been doing in the last 10 years is dispelling those myths and explaining exactly what makes light therapy efficacious.  It's a couple of things starting with the nanometers of the lights we're using.

Cellumai is unique in that we use three different wavelengths of light because the wavelength determines the depth of penetration. The longer the wavelength, the deeper, the energy penetrates. You have conditions that hit different layers of the tissue. And so we want to treat those simultaneously. We use blue, red, near infrared and ADA infrared, LEDs are rated at peak output but most LEDs don't run at peak output.

You have to have high quality LEDs with a very small range of output; plus or minus 5 or 10 nanometers, to be effective. We didn't invent the science, we just perfected it and made it in a way that had never been deliverable to the body. All of the led devices that were on the market while we were developing in Celluma and are still out there, have rigid flat panels. They look more like a French fry warmer than they did a medical device.

Carl Lanore: [01:02:26
I noticed the superiour quality of workmanship. Celluma uses the state-of-the-art surface mounted LEDs. No corners were cut, that's for sure.

Patrick Johnson: [01:03:28]
No. What makes light therapy work is delivering a specific dose of light energy within a very finite range. To do that, you have to have very high quality components that don't have a big range of performance. We've been at this for 10 years and a big part of those years have been spent overcoming the state snake oil salesmanshipand the charlatans who try to bring happy meal toys to market as light energy devices.  They weren't practicing the science so people weren't getting results of course. We've really had to take a high long road in educating the masses on the therapeutic benefit of light therapy.

Honestly, when I started reseaching it I was skeptical.  I was a med device guy and you're telling me that light energy can heal the body. Tuirns out yes, and it is effective across a broad spectrum of conditions  whether that be skin health, muscle and joint health, wound healing, diabetic peripheral neuropathy that the clinical research supports,

Carl Lanore:
I want to get deeper into all the different products you offer.

The 13 different models of Celluma

Patrick Johnson:
We have 13 different models, and basically the only difference between them is the area of treatment and the mode of treatment. The efficacy is all the same. From our $300 handheld pod, which is designed for spot treatment, up to our full body $15,000.  The same wavelengths, the same circuitry, the same software is used in all of them.

If you're buying a less expensive device, you're not getting less efficacy or less effectiveness in treatment. You're just getting a smaller treatment area and potentially a different mode of treatment.
Underneath all of the science, light therapy does one thing. It re-establishes normal mitochondrial function. If you have cells that are mitochondrial compromised,  we're able to turn that normal function back on.  We're just reversing something that happened.  

Carl Lanore: [01:10:02]
Celluma also treats acne. Is it the blue light that works for acne?

Patrick Johnson: [01:10:09]
There is a well known association between blue light and acne. When you expose acne bacteria, the source of acne breakouts to blue light, there is a photo toxic event created where the bacteria creates porphyrins, which rupture the cell membrane and the bacteria essentially commit suicide. In the absence of that bacteria, you can't have acne. The problem with the blue light is all you're doing is preventing future breakouts. You're not doing anything for the existing lesions. That's why we treat with blue light and red light, because the red light  knocks down the inflammatory process of the condition and to accelerate the changing of fluids, accelerate the microcirculation. This resolves the existing lesions as well as preventing future breakouts. That's the science to treat the entire condition rather than just a symptom.

Patrick Johnson: [01:13:44]
One of the areas where we can make the biggest impact on wellbeing globally, is wound healing.  Cellumnai is currently medically CE marked in the EU as a dermal wound healing device. We have a study going on right now replicating the clinical results we've been getting out of Europe using the Celluma as a wound healing device, because Diabetic wounds are the leading cause of amputation in the United States and they're tied to the, the obese crisis. There's a lot of drag on the healthcare system because of ineffective modalities of treating wounds. So that's something we're looking at. Anytime we look at a new indication for use, we have to ask "where's the clinical study that says that the solution isn't effective in treating that" if it doesn't exist we have to run it.

Patrick Johnson: [01:16:36]
I'm a road bicyclist so I'll jump on my bike and go out and do 50 or 60 miles and a couple thousand feet climbing.  I hate the climb because of how I feel after it.  I'll do a Celluma treatment on my calves and my  quads after my ride and I don't have any discomfort after I do that. If you're doing a lot of strenuous muscle workouts there's great clinical research on comparing a cold immersion therapy, which is kind of the gold standard in sports medicine to light therapy. Light therapy is more effective in promoting muscle recovery because it's not just deadening the pain It's actually helping the bottle body get back to the state it was in before it was worked out.

Carl Lanore: [01:18:42]
Patrick, I want to thank you for being a sponsor and also being on the show today to talk about the product.

Patrick Johnson: [01:18:48]
Absolutely my pleasure Carl, great talking to you.

shrnetwork.biz/celluma    Use the code SHR10, you'll get 10% off.