Marc Lesser
Fragmented thought is the norm today. With the interruption of push notifications, text message, cell calls and email there are few moments in the day that one can quietly focus. The world is in dire need of quiet mindfulness.
No matter what your goals, you'll reach them faster when you can control your thoughts.
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[00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of superhuman radio. We have a great show. Plan today and it's a very very important show in timely and I can't I can't say enough about the importance of today's show. We talked a lot about science new drug therapies training modalities nutritional approaches. We talked about all this sort of stuff, but it's really [00:01:00] just part of being a true super human if we look back to the early days of physical culture.
[00:01:07] We know people like Bernard McFadden. Eugen Sandow and others they knew that it was the whole person that had to be addressed in order to reach that superhuman status. And if you go back to even Greco-Roman times, you see that a lot of the people that we look up to. From those days they were devoted to their minds as well.
[00:01:31] And I'm not talking about spirituality. I'm not to about some kind of religion. I'm talking about the ability to direct your mind is something that has become lost today. In fact, most of us operate in an almost pavlovian approach to push notifications and emails and text messages. And and and fragmented thought is really the norm today.
[00:01:53] And this is not good. I predict that in years to come the isolation [00:02:00] that social media creates while at quote-unquote connects us is the leading cause of depression and even suicide and that's going to be years and years from now they're going to discover that no one sits across from each other and talks anymore, but more importantly.
[00:02:16] No one sits quietly and thinks. And this may be one of the greatest failures of our civilization today. My guest today is Mark lesser. He has written a book called seven practices of mindful leaders. Welcome to the show Mark. How are you? Thanks Carla doing really great this morning. So before we get started, I you know, I have to tell people a little bit about you because it's very impressive to have a guest of your caliber on the show you our CEO of an organization called zba Associates, which is a company that works.
[00:02:49] Business Leaders and Executives in mindfulness, you've worked with organizations like Google sap Genentech and Kaiser. I'm assuming is that Kaiser Permanente or just Kaiser? I don't [00:03:00] know has a feminine. Yeah big companies and and you actually the. Co-founder of search inside yourself Leadership Institute, which was a program that you developed at Google to what it what was that program?
[00:03:13] Tell us about that? Yeah that goes back. Oh a little more than 10 years ago. Now Google a Google engineer in his kind of 20% time, you know, Google allows their employees to step out of their normal roles for a fifth of their time and. And he had this idea of creating a mindfulness meditation emotional intelligence inside of Google.
[00:03:40] It was it was an experiment and and I happen to be at the time. I was doing some some Executive coaching for Google engineers, and I got pulled in. To help create that program called search inside yourself. It became over it over a few year period it became more and more popular [00:04:00] so that there was actually a competition amongst Google employees to get in and take that program really, you know in a way it was it was a program that that integrated mindfulness meditation.
[00:04:15] Emotional intelligence leadership and science there is always a really core science part of it. And and then it was in 2012 that I was helped create a nonprofit called the search inside yourself Leadership Institute that that took this work out into other companies all around the world and it's still very very successful program the right now now organizations like Google and Kaiser they.
[00:04:45] Do this for touchy-feely reasons they do this because somehow it affects their the productivity of their people and enhances obviously their ability to either Pioneer new things in their category or become [00:05:00] more efficient and and so on so is is. Is the mindfulness really that impactful do these organizations go?
[00:05:10] Wow, you know the the results of these types of programs are beneficial and if so, why don't more companies follow suit, it's interesting the more and more companies are starting to even. Do studies and data collection studies to demonstrate the relationship between mindfulness trainings and return on investment.
[00:05:35] You can look you can look online and see the huge companies like Aetna insurance has ended opted adopted. Mindfulness as a core part of their well-being programs as has sap as has Google, you know, and and part of it. I think I think people bring it in four different motivations and the impacts are also again, there's still a [00:06:00] lot of work to do to understand exactly what the impacts are, but the obvious ones are.
[00:06:05] They help people be more focused and they also help people have more flexible minds. They help people deal with change and stress with from a more a more healthy perspective and they also have a way of increasing people's ability to listen and connect and be curious which more and more the ability for people in the corporate world to collaborate has become an essential skill.
[00:06:35] Interesting. There's a lot of I've actually done shows about this and there is a lot of interest in things like micro dosing hallucinogens LSD and precursors and mushrooms and stuff like that. And one of the big quote-unquote benefits of it is it enhances a type of neuroplasticity? By [00:07:00] elevating bdnf, which is a brain-derived neurotropic factor.
[00:07:05] I believe isn't that also some evidence that meditation does that as well that Carl while I was writing my book Seven practices of a mindful leadership. I was also reading Michael pollan's book about psychedelics and and microdose thing is you were just referring to you know, in his book. His book is called had a change your mind.
[00:07:29] I was kind of joking with my publisher. I wanted to rename my book how to change your mind without drugs of right right in the way as you're saying I think at its heart, you know again as I was saying earlier, there's many there's many. For why people do mindfulness and meditation and these practices from you know from from stress relief to wanting to be better listeners, but the real the real benefit is as I think [00:08:00] what you're getting at is this sense of sense of freeing freeing us from our conditioning freeing us from.
[00:08:06] From our habitual mind and opening Us opening us up to seeing the world through through much fresher, you know, even even through the through the lens of Wonder and appreciation which which that that shifts the game completely when you when you see the world as fresh and new and and mysterious it's a different world that you live in why does mindfulness and even meditation conjure up?
[00:08:36] It's almost esoteric new-age fluffy thing that a lot of people dismiss immediately before even paying attention to. Yeah, I think that's changing. I think that there's a real I think especially I think that's why when I started working at Google and bringing mindfulness and meditation at Google. We actually had to [00:09:00] start all of our programs with the science.
[00:09:02] And so there's been a huge huge amount of that the studies on the studies and papers and research that's happening has been has been really phenomenal, you know, and it. Studies that go beyond self-report actually doing brain scans actually, you know studying DNA and the telomeres and there's been all this.
[00:09:26] Scientific evidence now of of the benefits of mindfulness and meditation and how it actually changes the brain how it actually changes our DNA in addition to all the other more experiential benefits that we have. But I think there is you know, there it does come, you know, mindfulness mindfulness and meditation.
[00:09:49] It was developed most fully within within religious Realms, you know within Buddhism with. Hannity and and I think it has a bit of [00:10:00] that people most people see that it almost has to overcome that now, you know, it's like it has the okay. It's not about that at all. It's something big. Yeah II think that going back to the the name of your show.
[00:10:18] You know, it's about it's about being a full human being. It's about developing one's Humanity. Once seeing one's common Humanity seeing be seeing beyond the materialistic culture the culture of you know, checking one's checking one's phone, you know hundreds thousands of times, you know over. It's of a few days.
[00:10:41] You know, I actually did a show a few months ago where I made the proposed that cell phones have become a form of mind control and you know, and I didn't want people go home and put on aluminum hats I want to say look mind control is if I can get you to do [00:11:00] something I want you to do. It doesn't have to be assassinate the president.
[00:11:04] It could be pick something up and cell phones have become that they not only will get us to pick them up. But they'll we take direction from them. You know, someone just texted you text them back push notification on Instagram. Someone like your photo go comment about it. And that is actually the antithesis.
[00:11:24] Of mindfulness this this fragmented jumping every second is it would you say that? It is eroding people's ability to for full cognitive constructive thinking. Yeah, I think there's the the the fragmentation that you're talking about. But also in a way people don't make time to just think people don't make time to just enjoy being with each other the kind of social time time to just really even time [00:12:00] to listen and notice what it's like to be.
[00:12:03] You know to be more present to be more alive, but how much of that is the result of industrialization and being productive. You know, I blame Gordon Gekko for some of this, you know, the morning that bud Fox calls him and he's walking on the beach with his Motorola 8000 and you know, and he's been on the phone with China or Japan all night trading and Bud Fox is just waking up and he says, you know, hey, bud.
[00:12:26] Nobody makes money while they're sleeping that moment for me like when I look back at where we are today. That crystallizes this idea that if you are not always working if you are not always productive than you are a slacker you are a time-waster. So that means that if I want to sit quietly at my desk for 20 minutes and close my eyes and allow my brain to just relax.
[00:12:50] I'm a slacker isn't that part of the reason people may think this is a waste of time. I don't even sleep 4 hours anymore because I want to be working all the time. [00:13:00] You know, I think I would say car. Yes, I agree with all of that. But I also think it goes beyond that. I think that I think that this is The Human Condition if you look if you if you look at.
[00:13:12] How humans evolved in a way we evolved for one thing and one thing only which is to stay alive and pass on our genes right and a way so that the habits you're talking about in terms of Gordon Gekko, right? We are fear-based creatures and we are dissatisfaction based creatures, right? We need we need that next thing.
[00:13:35] We're built that way. That's that's how we've evolved meditation. And mindfulness practices those were introduced thousands of years ago before all of this technology those practices were introduced to to help as antidotes to that kind of human are human nature around around fear around greed and hate right humans humans either [00:14:00] grasp onto things or push things away as we have these survive and these are survival mechanisms these things Keep Us Alive, but in our in our.
[00:14:09] Now they are they are what's I think at the heart of causing things like fragmentation like levels of materialism and greed that keep us from keep us from truly being happy through finding real Health real real. And I want to just I agree with you a thousand percent and in fact the phenomenon where people sit and watch the news all day is also part of our evolutionary gifts because we have survived because we seek out the danger in our environment, but the problem is our environment used to be the 60 or so feet around us.
[00:14:46] And now it's Iran. You know me like we can't we can't we're worried about what's going on. In other places that have no impact on us and were driven to do that because we are programmed to see. Our danger and this is why the [00:15:00] news on every station is more popular than any sitcom or television show that makes you laugh today.
[00:15:06] It's really sad. So one more question. I want to ask you then we're going to get deep into the book. So I've had this theory for a long time and you probably can tell me if I'm right or wrong. I believe that the creation of language has made it harder for us to be mindful. Because words have symbolic and implied meanings.
[00:15:29] And so I think of a an infant URI when we were just a year old laying in in a crib looking up at that spinning toy we had no words to assign to a we were in a meditative State most of the time. And as we become more intellectual and we start to attach meaning and symbolism and words to things and our and our vocabulary increases it becomes harder and harder to quiet the Mind.
[00:15:55] Am I off base on that completely. I don't think I would [00:16:00] blame it on language. I think you know because language also cuts the other way language, you know, things like things like poetry and beautiful prose. Can can also be used to open our imaginations language can be magnificently freeing and beautiful.
[00:16:21] But as you're saying it can it can also be it can also be limiting but I think this is, you know an interesting thing about. The process of meditation in the process of mindfulness. It's having a kind of Shifting what our relationship is with language to actually be curious and questioning about the stories that we tell ourselves the things that we you know in a way language can be limiting if we are using it to limit in terms of to just name things and be caught by things or be caught by the stories that we tell.
[00:17:00] [00:17:00] Okay, let's talk about the book now and this book will teach people a lot of things. It's a really really great book. A lot of people live with the problem that I mean work. There's a congressman somewhere trying to end create a bill that if your work emails you or text you after work hours that that's got to be findable and while I don't know that we can legislate this.
[00:17:27] I do understand where he's going today. We really do take work home with us. How do we stop that? Well, I think I think there's a there's I think there's two aspects of that one at least two, maybe even three, you know one one is there's the there's the Practical aspect of being able to set real boundaries and making making clear distinctions.
[00:17:50] I mean, I sometimes recommend to people that when you that when you you know, when you come home from work that you actually actually take. [00:18:00] Even if it's even if it's a few seconds, but you know just take a few breaths and recognize that you are now leaving work and you're coming home. You're going to you're going to let go let go of your work life and enter into your home life your life, even whether it's being by yourself being with your partner being with your kids, but I hear from so many people that they that they have trouble turning it off, right?
[00:18:25] So that's the other piece that that it actually takes. Actually takes some practice. It takes some mind training to be able to successfully do what I just suggested. Some people would have might have real trouble doing that. It's one thing to say, you know, take a few breaths and stop and turn it off, but it might it might actually it takes some training.
[00:18:47] It takes actually this is why having a regular mindfulness meditation practice can make it so that you can be more. You can be more successful at doing what I'm suggesting at [00:19:00] making making that distinction between your your work life and your your home life what what so there's lots of different ways to meditate.
[00:19:09] So I shared with you off the air that I am a student of Transcendental Meditation, but also I learned early on meditation from. Gentleman named Ram Dass. And when I lived in Las Vegas and his approach to meditation, he taught quite a few different follow your breath is one where you're not using a mantra repetitive meaningless word to you meaningless, you know Sanskrit word that doesn't have any real meaning to you.
[00:19:32] So it doesn't imply anything that you just have this repetitiveness in it. Then there's the obviously follow your breath, but then one of the things that I remember him saying. If you want to meditate where you're not focused on anything at all, you have to stop your mind from thinking and this tends to be a little bit harder and he he actually said if you want to see what it feels like for your mind to stop thinking ask yourself quietly in your head.
[00:20:00] [00:20:00] I wonder what my next thought will be and that moment that you're actually listening for your brain to spit out of thought is this long pause? So what should these are best is it whatever works for? Who is there? How did someone say okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna I'm gonna actually meditate before they even decide what time how do you choose which meditation is good for you?
[00:20:22] Yeah, I wanted to respond to what you were saying about stopping the Mind from thinking generally not not not a good idea. Not a good idea. Our minds. Our minds just are built for thinking now the practice you were saying about being curious about your thinking and asking you that's a great question that you were saying that Ram Dass suggested about, you know, being watchful being curious about the the next thought so it's more.
[00:20:50] Not being tossed around by our thoughts being able to being able to allow being able to allow thoughts to come and go, you know, you you see this you see this so much like I [00:21:00] but you know, I have to admit I'm a I'm a total. Sports junkie, so as I was watching the the football playoffs playoffs yesterday, you know, it's so interesting that as you know, that as kickers are are about to kick the winning field goal of the opposing team almost always calls a timeout.
[00:21:23] Right and they do that hoping that they're going to get the kicker thinking about it. But but these guys are these guys are trained right? They have to be trained. They're not they're not there. They're thinking they're thinking but there's probably thinking about one thing only which is there visualizing how that ball is going to go through the uprights.
[00:21:45] They're visualizing what it's going to feel like in the body as their as their perfectly beautifully doing that dance of. Moving and kicking the ball they're able to able to have some there's some training about that. They're [00:22:00] thinking positive successful things. They're not they're not worrying about failure.
[00:22:05] They're not thinking about what's going to happen if they miss interesting interesting. So do you propose that people use one type? Of meditation like I do you prefer a mantra in order to meditate. You know, I tend you know, I my own my own training is in the the Zen school. I lived I lived at the San Francisco Zen Center for 10 years and the the kind of the the Zen style of meditation.
[00:22:35] I think of as in a way the most simple the most basic it's. It's essentially the practice of being present being in the body following the breath. But but in a way this this practice of mindfulness and practice of meditation is actually much richer and deeper than that, right and you [00:23:00] could you could start with by saying well meditation has two parts to it Part 1.
[00:23:06] Is settling the mind is calming the mind is not being so thrown around by your thinking mind. But the other part of it is what's called Insight. It's actually having a different perspective about who you are and what it means to be alive. And and what your place is in humanity and this it's this interesting.
[00:23:30] Interplay between calming the mind and insight or perspective or having a different different relationship with your own your own your own being with your own thinking interesting interesting. The book is called seven practices of mindful leaders. Do you prefer people get it at Amazon or do you have another website you want to promote?
[00:23:52] Oh, you know I I love supporting bookstores Amazon's great, you know any place [00:24:00] any place where books where books are sold? Okay, there it is. So seven practices of mindful leaders of of mindful might lie every practice of a 97 practice of someone who can actually speak when they do radio. We're gonna take a quick commercial break.
[00:24:15] We'll be right back with more of Mark Lester stay tuned. Welcome back. We're talking with Mark less about his new book. Seven practices of a mindful leader and you know, maybe you're not a leader. Maybe you don't want to be a leader. Maybe you just want to be a better person a better parent. Better body builder better powerlifter, would you agree with me Mark that no matter what your goals are that mindfulness can actually get you there faster and make you better at it.
[00:24:47] I would agree with that and I would also say that when I use the word leader. There's no getting away from being a leader in that essentially what what I mean by that and the way the way that word is [00:25:00] used often is it means that you're someone who has influence your influencing others. You may be a leader a leader in your family.
[00:25:10] You may be a leader in your gym even at work. You might not have the roll. Of of a leader but no matter what you do, no matter what your role is. You certainly have influence. So in a way the word is meant to give people that sense of that we all that we all have responsibilities and as you're saying I think we have responsibility for our own.
[00:25:34] Our own well-being our own health. So mindfulness and mindfulness practice can be a way to support that and then beyond that it can also be a way to. Better the way we are in relationship better better communication better listeners the ability to collaborate with others the ability to focus and the ability to widen one's perspective are [00:26:00] kind of key key skills in today's world.
[00:26:02] No matter almost no matter what we're. There are two chapters in your book practice form practice five connect to your pain and connect to the pain of others. What role does pain play in the transformation that happens in mindfulness. Yeah, you know, I started to say this earlier Carl when you were talking about the addiction that people have to their phones and I think part of that is that.
[00:26:30] It's it's hard to feel you know, as human beings. We all know what it feels like to feel lonely to feel, you know, like we've let some we've let ourselves down or even some sense of emptiness or sadness is just it's just part of the part of the human condition part of our common humanity. And for the most part we don't like that right and we tend to do anything we can to.
[00:26:59] To [00:27:00] avoid that there's actually some beautiful some beautiful stories, you know about what happens when you went instead of if you're feeling if your notice that you're feeling a little sense of emptiness or loneliness or disconnection instead of picking up your phone. Just see what is it? Like, what does it feel like to be sad?
[00:27:23] What does it feel like to be lonely? And what happens is. This isn't this isn't true for all people all the time. But I've had this experience myself and I know many people who report having the sense that if you just stay with it, you find that it changes and that there's a sense there's a sense of connection and depth and even happiness that can that can arise that you don't get if you're constantly distracting Yourself by whether it's looking at your phone or playing video games.
[00:27:57] Are all the different ways that we that we [00:28:00] have to distract ourselves. And that really is what it is about distraction. You know, it's funny when I was in my early twenties, I found myself and talk therapy with the guy who really was a wonderful human being and to this day. I'm six years old. I still.
[00:28:15] Rely on things I learned from him is name was Jerry cats and he taught me. He said to me one day because I was in such pain at this point my life. He says, you know, you should really be excited. I said, why would I be excited because pain is growth provoking. He said if you have a pair of shoes that hurt your feet, you're probably going to end up with a new pair of shoes pretty soon and I've held that close for the rest of my entire life.
[00:28:35] Every time I hit a brick wall. I feel bad at first, but then I think wow something amazing is going to happen now because pain is growth provoking and if you. Is it is a distracted? We just want to distract ourselves from feeling the pain and really the pain is probably you know, we think of paying the wrong way.
[00:28:52] I mean, there's lots of pain right? You don't want to hit your hand with a hammer if you can help it, but but but all all the things the lessons in life [00:29:00] have some pain attached to the building. Yeah. I mean I when I was. You know after I left my 10 years at the Zen Center, I went to business school at New York University and got an MBA degree.
[00:29:14] And then I out of school. I started a company a greeting card in calendar company one of the first companies in the world to make things out of recycled paper, but I I was thinking how it was in my I was running I was CEO and running that company for about 12 years, and I remember. Walking into my office in year 12 or 13 and having this thought my heart isn't here anymore.
[00:29:41] And it was like it was really painful to feel that this was this was a company that that I had started and I had ran and it was my baby and yet it was that that realization that something had changed something had shifted in me. And this was no longer the right place for me to [00:30:00] be and at first of course.
[00:30:02] Try to push that feeling away as like like no, that would be terrible. This is this is my company I'd have to there would have to be changed. I'd have to figure out what I was going to do. And then it was actually shortly after that. I had a breakfast meeting with a woman who was on my board of directors and was also a mentor of mine and she looked at me in the eyes and she said Mark.
[00:30:26] It's time for you to leave this company. And and of course my first reaction was oh she thinks I'm I'm not a good leader or I'm not doing it right and all that kind of pain and self-judgment came up and then she looks at me and says. You have much larger things to do with your life than to be running this small Publishing Company interesting and I looked at her and said like what and she said that you'll have to figure out and and actually I look back at how painful you know change is [00:31:00] hard seeing seeing.
[00:31:02] Opening up to when we're not in alignment and sometimes it means with our work. Sometimes it means in relationship. Sometimes it means we're not in alignment with how we're taking care of ourselves. So this is this is a great gift. Feeling letting ourselves feel the discomfort the pain the loneliness of of whatever isn't working.
[00:31:24] And as you were saying that then opens the door to making healthier choices in our lives one of the best times to meditate. First thing in the morning is you know, there's a lot of well, maybe the short answer to that with the way I usually answer that question. Carl is whenever you can write whenever you actually stick to it right whenever you can if that if that if that's for you is, you know, during your lunch break if that's at the end of the day in general though for most people.
[00:31:54] There's something about being fine. If you can to find a way to have a [00:32:00] meditation practice before the activity of the day. So you get out of bed do whatever, you know, your brush teeth bathroom and then have have a sitting practice then for some people that means getting up a little bit earlier before maybe before kids and family are up one of the things I like to as a way of framing it is too if you can.
[00:32:24] Meditation like brushing your teeth. You don't nobody know. Nobody says, oh I don't have time to brush my teeth. No, we somehow we find time for that. It's just a half to the other thing. That doesn't get talked about nearly enough is that. There's something really powerful about the experience of meditating with other human beings.
[00:32:47] Now this may not be possible on a daily practice for most people but it's generally possible like on a week. Like if you can find find a few other people find a local there's [00:33:00] so many meditation groups and classes around all over the all over the country and all over the world these days even even once a year or a couple times a year doing.
[00:33:10] Retreat doing whether it's a day-long retreat or a longer retreat with other people. It's a very different there's just a very different experience sitting with others. I don't I don't think meditation was ever meant to be a solo practice. It was you know, it was meant to be something that you do with other people.
[00:33:30] What about so I remember when I took the TM they told me not to meditate before sleep. But right now I've actually moved into another bedroom because I have all of these apparatuses. I'm doing some real deep Dives and to sleep. I've got several apps. I actually do a complete sleep study and in my spare bedroom at night when I sleep and I'm looking at different things that affect the duration of deep sleep and REM sleep and recovery.
[00:33:56] And with that being said I keep. I [00:34:00] should meditate before I go to sleep, but they told me Auntie Em not to do that. Just I know you're not supposed to meditate right after you eat because the physiological changes that happen your body has to digest food, but why why would someone tell me not to meditate before sleep would seem intuitive to meditate before sleep?
[00:34:17] Yeah. I'm not sure. The only thing I could think of is that in general. You don't in general you don't want to. Connect meditation with you know with going to sleep because in a way the practice is about being it's about being more alert being more awake being more present. II don't see anything II I often suggest that if that's if that's a good time for you two to have that time of meditation before sleep.
[00:34:50] I think it I think it works really well and then I think part of it can then I think for a lot of people be a way to clear the mind be a way to [00:35:00] relax and actually enhance. One's ability to sleep, which is a whole other topic that we probably don't even want to get into here. But people people, you know, one of the things that I hear a lot is that people have trouble staying awake during meditation and.
[00:35:17] I generally ask are you getting enough sleep and I can see so many people don't get enough sleep and and a meditation practice can be actually a reminder or a signal that people need to sleep more. If you're falling asleep during meditation practice pay attention. I it's something that always baffled me was was I falling asleep, but I know I wasn't because I would stop at 20 minutes and raise my head, but I used to get into when I meditated with.
[00:35:46] Regularity which was over the course of years. I would get into a meditative State rather quickly. And and and and I would go very deep where my head my chin would fall against my [00:36:00] chest and I may have looked like I was sleeping and I used to even question. She was I just sleeping but I always I always raise my head right around 20 minutes.
[00:36:08] And so, how can I be sleeping if I knew enough to pick up my head in 20 minutes I say to myself. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I think one of the beautiful things about meditation practices is. Getting more familiar with our own. Our own Consciousness getting more familiar. I mean there's it's okay.
[00:36:28] It's fact, it's really interesting if we're if we're sleepy either if we're as you're saying we might get into some some kind of Zone where where where we are not are not our usual state of mind, but there's something there where we both. We're both alert and relaxed at the same time and it's our thinking mind isn't isn't taking over as much but sometimes we might notice that we're kind of drifting into that that kind of unconsciousness that sleep that's sleep state of mind and [00:37:00] its really interesting to actually.
[00:37:02] To notice that and be curious of that and then to gently bring ourselves, you know, maybe take a few deep breaths and come back to being a bit more awake so that we don't completely completely fall asleep. But a lot a lot of the practice is about curiosity about Awakening Awakening that sense of wonder and curiosity in our in our own lives.
[00:37:25] Interesting. I want to take a quick commercial break. We have a lot more questions. You're listening to Mark lesser. It's a really great book and it's a very very easy read and it will elucidate for you how you can set up a program for yourself seven practices of a mindful leader. You can get it where ever greater books are sold stay tuned.
[00:37:45] We'll be right back. I gotta update that can see spot. That's two years old. I just I turned. And I'm still not wearing reading glasses. Thanks to can't see eye drops. It's a really amazing product really is [00:38:00] anyway, so we're talking with Mark Lester about his book seven seven practices of a mindful leader.
[00:38:06] Why don't more company. Excuse me at a sneeze. Why don't more companies. Employ something this simple for their employees. You know, I've noticed that more and more companies are it's becoming it's becoming more and more accepted and fact, I think. I think more and more we're seeing more programs like this as part of curriculum in Business Schools and and leadership programs.
[00:38:36] Yeah, I think this is you know, I think the day will the day will come and I don't think it's that far away when mindfulness practice meditation practice is just a corp corp corp part of the curriculum for all kind of leadership sand business training and and I think it will more and more becoming.
[00:38:58] Incorporated [00:39:00] into any company that has any kind of well be, you know well-being program or leadership development program. In fact, I have dinner last night with a friend who. Works at Google and teaches a a change management program for four liters. And and this is I think this topic of of dealing with stress dealing with dealing with change is just going to become more and more essential for for leaders.
[00:39:29] But do you think it's also a realm that would. I get the Stress Management side of it, but I have to believe that meditation also. Allows for things like original thought. For people to become leaders in their category because they are breaking new ground. I have to believe that in this in the in the vacuum of meditation your brain actually [00:40:00] can can Harvest thoughts that you normally wouldn't have access to in full Consciousness.
[00:40:06] Am I am am I giving way too much, you know magical credit to I think I think. Actually, you're you're moving more into the territory of at least what I what I think meditation really is, right. There's you know in a way in a way people often are drawn to it and companies bring it in. For motivations around, you know, relieving stress and increasing well-being and those are those are crucial those are important and and meditation can have that that impact and it's and it's a little bit easier to study that too.
[00:40:43] I think the science element science can can produce really good data and information about things like. Stress and and heart health the area that you're talking about I think is amazingly [00:41:00] important which is about about creativity about your this realm this realm of originality this realm of widening widening one's perspective about what's possible being able to have a different relationship with one's imagination, but I would say also that it has a.
[00:41:21] Of being able to connect connect us with others in a way as well that it not only increases our own own creativity, but allows us to collaborate with others in a way that is many times more connected and possible than if we don't have this kind of a practice, you know, who is a lifelong meditator and he is a leader in his category of business.
[00:41:50] And people would not think this about him Howard Stern. Uh-huh. Howard. Stern has been a disciple of Transcendental Meditation since he was a [00:42:00] very young man in his teens and when he worked in at WABC and in Manhattan his limo driver Ronnie when he would pick them up at like 3:30 a.m. To get on the air at six and drive from Long Island into.
[00:42:18] How would we sit in the back of the limo and meditate for sometimes up to an hour at a time? And and you know, and you can't deny that whether you like his style of radio which I do I like you anything. That makes me laugh. I'm all for but but you know whether you liked his style of radio or. I mean the guy is a leader.
[00:42:38] I mean he drove he drove categories of radio that did not exist before him. Well, there's lots of interesting examples of well-known leaders from Steve Jobs. Had a meditation practice Marc benioff the founder CEO of Salesforce deaf wiener. Who's the CEO of LinkedIn as I [00:43:00] mentioned earlier, I think places like places like Google and Aetna and sap have all put mindfulness practices as a core part of their well-being.
[00:43:15] Great stuff and and this is so easy. I mean you buy a book like marks book and it puts you on track. And the reality is you don't have to buy anything else ever again if you don't want to and it's just you and your mind and that's it. It's really it's really it and I say this. Knowing that I am one of these people who is it is not using something that I know is very powerful and and we just need to do it.
[00:43:43] Like you said you got to make a practice of it. Just got to do it every morning if that's when you go to do it just get up and do it. Yeah, and then also I think you know, there's something about. I often suggest that people try try sitting for for 5 or 10 minutes a day, [00:44:00] you know over over a course of a couple of you know, whether it's a couple of weeks or a couple of months and just notice just see does it does it change your experience?
[00:44:11] You know, just what does it what does it do to your day-to-day life? Does it does it help you? Does it help you be? A little bit more a little bit calmer a little bit more relaxed a better listener not quite not quite as caught up in the in the daily dramas that we tend to get so easily caught up in so do you do do you travel and do in-person lectures and stuff like that?
[00:44:34] I do I find my find myself. I I do a lot of work. It's interesting how how popular. How much interest there is in this work is in Asia and in Australia, I've taught quite a few programs in in Sydney in Tokyo in Singapore Hong Kong. Yeah, I [00:45:00] end up. I end up probably traveling a little more than I than I would like to and yet at the same time.
[00:45:07] I love I love doing in person programs. I'm just starting now to do more a little bit more online programs. But but there's nothing quite like actually being being with with other people and. Doing this work together. Now. Do you have a website where people can follow you and or Facebook page or yeah.
[00:45:25] My my website is Mark M AR cles Ser dotnet Mark lesser dotnet. And do you have your schedule up there of engagements that may be coming? I do I do in fact, I just I'm finally finally getting my own act together and just I just launched a new website last week. Yeah, I'll be I'm going to be.
[00:45:50] Teaching in New York at the Garrison Institute in a few months and and I'm doing some programs a program at [00:46:00] esalen and yeah, just kind of more and more looking to looking to get out there and spread the work very cool very very cool stuff. You know, this will make you a better athlete if you're an athlete listening to the show.
[00:46:14] I know we have a lot of athletes at listen to the shows, but we have a lot of clinicians. That a prescribing hormone replacement therapy and things like that. And this is also a very important factor for your patient to achieve Optimal Health and and like I said before you do it in the quiet of your own mind, it's you could do it anywhere anywhere on the train, you know, you catch you on the A train.
[00:46:38] I used to meditate on the A train he did so well, I wanted to both confirm what you were saying about. Yes, it is. What could be easier what could be simpler than just being with your own mind and at the same time it does, you know there are there are. It's a good thing to realize and be [00:47:00] aware of all of the potential impediments and thing that things that could in the get in the way right our own our own busyness our own, you know, the our own drive drive for success and I think part of part of what it takes I think is to see that.
[00:47:19] Mindfulness practice and meditation. It isn't it isn't as though we have to now add on something else to are already full schedule. It's like just taking some time for ourselves and seeing if that actually will lessen the complexity of our lives are even less in the extra effort so so much of of.
[00:47:44] What gets in the way of our own well-being and our own success is how much we do that's extra and unnecessary and in a way this this practice can be a way to reduce the unnecessary [00:48:00] effort to make to help see that we can we can be a little bit. More effort effortless and what we do right. This is that again when I think of that that image of the the NFL kickers are even athletes in general really good athletes.
[00:48:17] Of course, there's a you know, they practice they practice like hell and there's a really strong desire to achieve and to win. But when you're performing when they're playing there's a there's a feeling of effortless to it that I think we want to emulate in our own work lives in our own relationship lives this kind of just just being effortless.
[00:48:40] Yeah, absolutely and I'll tell you something about me. I love the beach and I and I find meditation when the sun is bleaching through my eyelids for some reason is just magic. Like for me the sound of the ocean the smell of the sand the sun baking [00:49:00] my body and I'm on the on the edge of a meditative State just being in that environment.
[00:49:06] I think having a comfortable environment that makes you feel embraced. You know what I mean? That's a great place to do it, too. Yeah. Yeah, and if you and if you cultivate that maybe you can even appreciate. Being stuck on the traffic in the highway. Yeah or sitting in a crowded subway station. It might it might you know to there's a way of training oneself to appreciate Beauty and possibility in beautiful places, but even in places maybe that we don't think of as so inviting and so beautiful a kind of again opening are opening ourselves up to being kinder.
[00:49:46] To ourselves kinder to the people in our lives and just cultivating the sense of wonder and curiosity great stuff Mark Lester. Thanks so much for being on the show today. Thank you very much. Take care you two [00:50:00] that's important stuff. It really is and I know a lot of you may not think it is. A lot of you may think that your goal is to squat more or bench, press more or train harder or run faster, but I got to tell you something it all starts in the mind.
[00:50:17] And if you can control your mind you can control your body better. So check out the book will see you by tomorrow with more superhuman radio. Thank you for listening today.
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