Evelyn Kocur
NOTE: Due to technical difficulties this is a commercial free episode
Nu Si promises to eradicate heart disease through diet driven by science in the next 10 years. Lead by Gary Taubs, Nu Si has taken millions of dollars to fund research that will prove that the low carb diet is the best diet to help reverse the chronic disease. The low carb diet is Taub's pet mission. Three of their four studies have in fact proven just the opposite. So what will Nu Si do now that their own science flies in the face of their mission?
{mp3}https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/superhumanradio.net/components/com_podcast/media/mp3s/SHR_Show_2299.mp3{title}SHR_Show_2299{end-mp3}
{spoiler spoilerID,Click to read Show Transcript,Click me to close}
[00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to another episode of superhuman radio. It's Monday. No, it's Tuesday, but it feels like Monday because I didn't do a show yesterday and we're starting off with a really important discussion about nutrition with my guest today Evelyn coaster. How you doing Evan? I'm doing great.
[00:00:53] How are you? Carl? Good, we're having a little technological difficulty. I don't think you can hear the music or the commercials right now. I [00:01:00] did hear the music coming in. So I figured out what you know, what I've been doing. I've been doing interviews on Zoom. I've been doing interviews Facebook live and everything needs a different setting on my board and I forgot I turn something off so I had to turn it back on.
[00:01:13] So there we go. Alright, I think we're good Evelyn. Welcome back to show. How are. I'm doing very well. Thank you. Nice to be back and you and I you and I have something in common. We both had foot / ankle surgery recently. Yes. Yes. I had ankle fusion surgery last August and of August. I'm five months post-op just a little bit over and walking shoes.
[00:01:38] So no pain. So I'm making strides and I'm real happy with that. So that's that's that's my status right now. People have no idea what it's like to live on one leg. It's really difficult than it. It's insane. I'm so glad for having upper body strength because especially for a woman just to be able to sit down on the toilet to use it.
[00:01:59] I [00:02:00] mean you you don't appreciate. Your everyday abilities to you know, go up or down stairs walk sit down. It's a whole new world, and I'm so glad to be past that stage and hopefully so far so good on my end and your. Male do recently or message you recently and you said you're doing better. So I'm going today and I'm hoping that they take me out of this stupid boot, you know, I've been using that nice scooter which everybody thinks is great, but it's destroyed my knee cap now.
[00:02:34] Yeah. Yeah. It's the new scooter is wonderful instead of crutches. But if you have any sort of issues with your knee or for meeting my cast came up high and and I was you know, Leaning on that calf. So it was kind of moving it and torquing it around, you know, it was great compared to going around on crutches, but it has its limitations as well.
[00:02:56] I kicked it away beginning of January. I finally [00:03:00] just got rid of it. Totally I said, I don't need this thing anymore. So. So yes, there is a little feedback. I'm going to get rid of right now. Hold on a second. Yeah, I have I have some on my end. It may have gone away now. It should have gone away right now.
[00:03:13] I'm still yeah actually seems like it's gone. Yes, it's gone. Yeah again, I've been fiddling around with this thing. Trying to accommodate several different interfaces. So anyway, let's talk about new side not to be confused with new side. How do you know that? Yeah, well, you know actually there's a really funny story with that a friend of mine that I like.
[00:03:39] I don't know him, but I've known him from Twitter for a long time owned and you TSI and the new side people tried to buy that domain from him. And so but I guess they are there new see. Okay, that's how it's pronounced. It's very important that you pronounce that new see so so [00:04:00] if any OS i.org that were going to be talking about nut and USC i.org, right?
[00:04:05] Correct? No, no see and USI stands for the nutrition science and initiative and I'm the one who blew it because I got the wrong image on Facebook this morning, which I will repair and replace later today. But anyway, what it what is new see, what is it? Okay, so. I'm pretty sure that most of your listeners are familiar with Gary towns whose the science journalist who since I think it was 2002, he wrote the first article, you know, what if it's all been a big fat lie talking about you know, how low-fat diets there are to blame for the Obesity epidemic and that it's really insulin that.
[00:04:45] You know eating carbohydrates that causes us all to get fat. So sometime in 2012 a doctor named Peter atencio came into the picture and met up with Gary taubes and the two of [00:05:00] them that funding from an organization called the Laura Laura and John Arnold Foundation. And they pledged somewhere around 40 million dollars to improve nutritional research.
[00:05:15] So they were going to basically say, you know all the nutritional research up until this point was all crap Gary's house had all but called, you know, all obesity researchers idiots on his blog and so forth for years, so they were going. Revolutionized the nutrition research industry, you know, there was this whole idea that this was going to be the quote-unquote Manhattan Project of nutrition.
[00:05:44] So the idea was that they were going to spend. You know 90% of the of the monies that have been gathered specifically towards research and not waste any money on Superfluous things. And with this essentially unlimited amount of [00:06:00] money to spend what kind of really really great research. Can we do instead of the quote unquote bad research that had been done up to that date.
[00:06:10] So what I have to say, I would have to say that. You are a moderate. And in fact, the name of your blog is kind of tongue-in-cheek. Its carbon sanity the carb the carb Asylum, you know, you're more of a moderate you're like and actually I think it's the right way to be but why is it that nutrition science always becomes some sort of?
[00:06:41] What's the word I'm looking for here. They you know, like when you look at it was oh it's always got to be like all the way to that like look Carnival brought of or vegan. It's like always on the periphery. It's never like in the middle. Is it because in the middle just isn't sexy. Well, I think that's one reason.
[00:06:59] It's not sexy [00:07:00] to say well I eat, you know, I eat mostly this but I do read data from time to time, you know, it doesn't doesn't, you know, it doesn't play. Well. I think that that. I don't know what it is about humans, but we seem to want to kind of we definitely seem to want to be part of a tribe and part of a movement and part of doing something different than everybody else's because you know, God forbid any of us are just you know, mediocre or average or something like that.
[00:07:26] I think. That might be part of it. But if you look into I mean I spent an awful lot of time looking into the history of nutrition research, you know dating back nutrition really didn't come into play until the very late 1800s early 1900s and most of it was. Gone into to prevent nutritional deficiencies and kind of like the dark CD underside of nutrition research was that most of it was really to improve the [00:08:00] labor and fighting capabilities of you know, like peoples in Africa and so forth from the Europeans, this is really you know it or the poor, you know, how can we, you know create a good working class from.
[00:08:15] From the little Scottish orphan Poor Boys and things like that Joe and it's really it's really important. There's a certain Nuance here that just got passed over by what you said, but the reality is that the ruling class has always looked at the rest of us this way and we can look at every aspect of.
[00:08:35] All of the different constructs of society today and they can all be traced back to what ends up increasing the GDP what ends up making us the most productive what ends up making every person on the planet contribute their their toil in some way to build. This whole society in no one looked at things like, you know, you just need to rest.
[00:08:59] No, you don't need [00:09:00] to rest you can sit there, but you'll have to do this work while you're sitting there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it really when you really look into it, especially a lot of the the work that was done in Africa. I mean. It's kind of shocking when you look at some of it. But are you familiar at all with the whole Maasai and a kikuyu comparison?
[00:09:23] Well, you know, I know who the Messiah they're the ones who do bloodletting and they try and find blood right? Yay. Right. So the Messiah the only the Warriors the women eat. Normal Foods don't eat that that that specific diet. It's only the men during their Warrior years who basically survive on milk blood and some meat.
[00:09:45] Alright, so that has been kind of lionized in the ancestral nutritional Community as oh look this is this is a great diet, but the big comparison was done at the time between them and the larger neighboring tribe, which was the kikuyu [00:10:00] try. That was a techno at that point. They had been marginalized on their lands and so forth.
[00:10:06] So they were pretty much relegated to a mostly vegetarian diet and but the echo clue was a much much larger tribe and they potentially were a bigger labor force and a bigger fighting force. For the Europeans and so this is what that research this is why they did the research into these two tribes.
[00:10:27] It was not to see what is the most nutritious thing that that humans can eat it was to see what is why is it that this particular tribe seems to suffer from fewer of these tropical ulcers or this or that or the other thing or who's stronger to be able to work and fight and it turns out that the you know the kikuyu men.
[00:10:50] They suffered from they didn't eat vegetables at the women ate because that was considered too feminine in their culture. So it had [00:11:00] nothing to do with fat or anything else or even some of the protein it was they, you know, the women got some of these extra nutrients because they ate the vegetables right and they didn't suffer from the things that the men.
[00:11:15] And so but but the whole focus at the time and if you look in the literature and you look at the glossed over version you here, oh, the military said that you know, 80% of the kikuyu men were unfit for Duty. So therefore, you know looking back a hundred years later you think well, gee their diet must have been horrible, you know, and therefore we should all be you know, Letting the blood out of cows and drinking blood and in and milk, you know gallons a day, but you know, it's just not it's not so, you know when you when you well you understand.
[00:11:50] There's one thing that a lot of people don't take into account either. It's basically availability, right? I mean we tend to select [00:12:00] Foods. that fit a certain criteria. But based on availability, like people who live, you know in the middle of the country, they're not eating ocean fish before airplanes were flying stuff from coast to coast, right?
[00:12:14] Exactly. And so, you know, and then we go. Oh look at that and that's my frustration, you know part of my frustration with this whole blue zones and. The okinawans and even the Chinese, you know, The China Study, you know, we look at these people and we go. Oh the answer to everything is to eat the way they do and we and we and we forget about their lifestyle and we forget about the influence of availability in the first place.
[00:12:44] Yeah, and even even the type of food. I mean if I say to you Carl eat more fish. What does that mean to you? Tuna right canned tuna? Okay. So tuna or salmon or caught and if you look at warm water [00:13:00] fresh water fish. They tend to be extremely low fat fish means right? Okay versus your cold water deep water fish like salmon, right?
[00:13:15] Yeah, or and and even there's there's variations with salmon as well. But you know, if you just even tell what that you know people who are eating salmon up in in in the Arctic regions, this is nowhere near, you know, getting your freshwater fish out of the out of the lake in the middle of Africa, you know, it's just not the same thing.
[00:13:38] It's a totally it might as well be eating a chicken versus a piece of bacon. I mean, it's obviously not the same but I get your point I do I do and so at so now let me ask you a question that that there's got to be studies out there that have corrected for resting energy [00:14:00] expenditure and activity that looked at low carb diets low fat diets even probably low protein diet.
[00:14:11] Where people were able to lose weight on any of those dietary templates when you observe the the need for energy or am I wrong like I remember when I first read keckwick and Pawan. Research and I thought oh, look at this shit like carbs that the only people that gain body fat with a people who a carbs, but they weren't they didn't measure these peoples ree at that point in time.
[00:14:35] Exactly. Just gave him an isochoric diet. We don't know if that was enough food too much food regardless of what the macronutrients Q was. We don't know that we so we really don't know if the only people that would have gained weight whether people on the carb diet had that been done are there aren't there studies out there that have looked at.
[00:14:54] These one when you when you correct for the actual energy expenditure energy energy [00:15:00] requirement of the person it really doesn't matter what the primary macronutrient is. Yeah. There there have been. Long ago there there are many many studies that have been done and really the only ones if you are doing a diet comparison study in terms of the macro nutrients or even the types of food.
[00:15:19] The only ones that can really really matter are the ones that are done in metabolic Ward's Because unless you can with a high degree of confidence say this is actually what they ate. And this is what actually happened. You can't draw any conclusions based on these studies. And this is what I mean.
[00:15:43] New see did a they actually. Did a review of the literature it's no longer on their website. They got rid of it after things went sour but they did a review of the literature of all of the studies that had been done and they said [00:16:00] well, this one didn't have enough people and this one wasn't long enough and this one wasn't and it's true because there are really three big issues with doing any nutrition research.
[00:16:10] And this is a slide from types of food or anything else, but you know how many people that you can have in your study because you know, the more people the more it's going to cost how long you can conduct your study. All right, and this is especially important with the metabolic words. That is how long is anybody.
[00:16:30] How long is your really average generalizable person? Going to want to go live in a hospital. I was going to say today taken hostage. Yeah, we take it hostage. Right? So I mean, this is the thing because they say well, you know the metabolic Wars I mean and it's true right if you wanted to do a year-long metabolic word study on the average person who's going to sign up for that.
[00:16:56] Okay, certainly not somebody who can not [00:17:00] possibly work from inside there or you know, I mean, you know who's going to give up a whole, you know, we're talking about maybe doing doing experiments on institutionalized people which tells you know is now considered, you know, extremely unethical even for dietary studies, which I'm not sure quite why but you know for.
[00:17:21] Well I can but then you have a whole other issue right? A lot of the antipsychotic drugs actually cause insulin resistance they cause obesity they cause a lot of metabolic changes. So you'd have to that would be that would be hard to tease out. I mean, you know, I'm glad I'm just saying, you know there that would be the one to me.
[00:17:40] That would be the one. Go to White Collar prison something going to Bedford and I live in New York. So we have like I think that's where Martha Stewart was you go to that prison and set up a nutritional study there right now. I mean, that's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you wouldn't have you wouldn't really have [00:18:00] a bad skew of the general population in terms of other physical characteristics.
[00:18:06] But anyway, yeah, that's kind of off the tangent. But I mean the the the major the. At the very end of the day you could probably throw out and I've been blogging for it. This will be my this is the start of my tenth year of blogging because I started officially in 2010. So this would be my 10th year.
[00:18:28] I have looked at literally hundreds of studies of nutritional, you know diet comparison that I comparison that and so many times they'll have a little table. This is what they ate. And you look at it and it's like how can I believe this or we prescribed a 30% fat diet to this group and a 40% protein diet to that group and you go and look and see what did they actually even report if [00:19:00] you can believe what they report what did they actually well they really actually only ate a 35% diet which is 1% less than they were eating at.
[00:19:09] Baseline or they actually lowered their carbohydrate intake. I mean, I was just looking because I was on this topic the other day one study. I was looked at they said well, we were the high carb Branch was supposed to increase their carbs to 55 to 60% of their intake and they started out at 49% guess where they ended up.
[00:19:35] At the end of the study 85 legs 45% Yeah. No. No, we're nearly you know, so so not only did they not increase the complex. They actually decreased it, right? So how can you say that that diet is representative of a high carb diet because they clearly didn't follow the instructions. So I mean, this is like the big thing in [00:20:00] all of nutritional research is in any free living study.
[00:20:04] How do you how do you assess compliance and how do you you know?
[00:20:13] if you can't say that they complied how can you draw any conclusions from what you get and and for me that's really where I kind of throw my hands up and say we are just literally tossing millions and millions of dollars down the. Well, and let's be honest right tabs has been challenged before and he's made it his personal goal to convince people that carbohydrates are evil.
[00:20:44] Excuse me. I'm sorry. but. carbohydrates are not evil. I mean, okay granted a diet high in sugars may cause some metabolic unwanted metabolic changes. But [00:21:00] spinach is a carbohydrate surely house isn't saying spinach is bad for you, but he is right hit mean he's the guy who says you got to eat bangers, you know sausages and and I mean, he's almost a radical radical approach to the.
[00:21:16] The who's the guy that started this whole thing the that he passed away happened the Atkins diet of he's like a more radical form of Atkins diet isn't yeah. That's what he is. Well, I mean and it's funny because if you read between the lines of tabs, he does say well then it's really only the refined.
[00:21:35] Because table so why don't the Japanese? Why are the Japanese? Oh, well, they eat brown rice. They don't eat white rice, but that's not true. Gary blunting effect. We don't know. I mean, yeah, I would just say don't eat a lot of fat to go along. I mean, you know that the same of like the Chinese Chinese food in our country is not Chinese food [00:22:00] and.
[00:22:00] You know, I mean all of it. Are you telling me there's no such thing as a General Tsao. Don't tell me that because I gotta believe there's a guy behind that chicken. It's really good differently at different restaurants. So you never even know do you just made a good point when you do consume lots of starchy carbohydrates along with fat the body?
[00:22:28] Because the because are from our evolutionary gifts the body is always looking to leverage food just in case we meet a family again. And so yeah, it's going to make fat and use the carbohydrates for fuel because they're eating easily converted to blood glucose and Bam, so it's going to take the fat and it's going to store it.
[00:22:50] That's my understanding. Am I wrong about that when you eat them together, that's really where the problem becomes. Yeah. Well, It's not even eating them [00:23:00] together so much as we mean, it's a really actually a very simple quote unquote algorithm. I guess is the word I would use for fuel usage. We we are if you look at plants how do plants store their energy.
[00:23:18] They throw their energy as carbohydrate because it is in most plants plants are static. Organisms, right? So it is in a trees benefit to have a higher weight. So it doesn't get blown over and and die, right but animals need to move. So we need to store our energy our excess energy for a rainy day.
[00:23:43] We need to store it in the least dense manner, right so plants store energy as carbohydrates. Animal store energy as fat and the only kind of [00:24:00] cross-referenced thing about all that is the reproductive organ right? Not. What do you mean have a patent? What do you mean the reproductive organ seeds and nuts.
[00:24:10] Those are where you find the fact that's the little bit of fat that plants in the avocado the nuts the Seas, you know, that is where the fat goes, right. Because that is you know, that's where they need to store a little bit of energy, you know, a seed needs to fly right sometimes to go and find another name and then embed and grow but it needs to have a little bit of energy to get things started.
[00:24:36] So there's a little bit of fat in the corn kernel there's a little bit of fat in the sunflower seed and in the interest of I never thought about that. That's the that's the genetic makeup. Of the plant that's the genetic the genetics of the plant and you when you said reproductive organs, I'm thinking of humans, but you're right seeds and nuts their reproductive organs.
[00:24:59] That's again. Maybe the [00:25:00] organ not so much the right word, but with the reproductive part, righty, so you think of eggs, right they go there is energy right in there, you know. Yes, so that's that's the only place in nature where we kind of see the whole. Combination and then you know for mammals milk, right the the which is the instant food for mammals, but not I mean even herbivores right horses the don't eat any they have they have milk right and know nothing about human breast milk.
[00:25:35] So the early stages of human breast milk have higher degrees of carbohydrates in them. I'm not but a lot of those carbohydrates are actually two. Sustained the microbes that are being delivered by the mom not for the baby to consume and and and more mature breast milks. Are you when you when you breastfeed your baby past six or seven months?
[00:25:58] It's actually high protein [00:26:00] high fat very very low carbohydrate at that point in time. So that tells you something if we if we if we can agree that. That the food made by nature to be food for humans is breast milk everything else. We adapted to be food. It didn't kill us. We ate it. We felt good.
[00:26:19] We kept eating it. You know, there's some interesting facts about breast milk that we could probably take away and superimpose into diets. What do you think about that? Well, okay now there are going to differ because I really looked into this a lot of few years back went in there was a big controversy with you know can okay.
[00:26:40] Say what that is. Do you know Tim noakes is no, so he said that the more funding is now a big low carb. You don't need one gram of carbohydrate in your diet guy. So he got into some trouble on Twitter for telling a breastfeeding woman that the [00:27:00] important thing is to wean her child onto low carb food.
[00:27:05] So what II at that time I am and if you look on my blog, I think I have a pic. It's called the baby gate baby gate is the title of that place. It's a label on my on my blog. So if anybody goes to my blog and just searches on the baby gate files there they'll find them but I looked into human breast milk, and actually the most consumed at the most conserved macronutrient is in human breast milk.
[00:27:34] Lactose producing that's your call by coach depending upon depending upon the diet of the mother protein goes up and down. It's still very low. It's like five percent five six percent. And as a matter of fact, there's a lot of research about baby formulas having too much protein that that have caused that they say is.
[00:27:59] Correlated [00:28:00] with obesity is some controversy as to whether or not that is the case, but we're talking, you know, Subway sub 10% So we're not even talking the the standard adult human diet of the western world. So, you know, the protein is very low in breast milk. Fat goes up and down. But that lactose stays right around the six to seven grams per hundred mils interesting and and it's you know, I was looking at a whole bunch of studies that were looking at that and so it just you know, it's not and you know, I'm not even saying that I disagree with the fat with any fact that.
[00:28:45] infant milk for a mammal is any. Clue to what the adult diet for that species should be a good point because it's designed to be the the food that brings [00:29:00] the mammal out of the womb and into the world. It's a transitional food. If anything, I mean human babies are born the fattest of all because. We we basically karna cannibalize our fat to grow our brains in the first Early times and then we start growing and so forth, but I mean all mammals even the herbivores have you no carbohydrate.
[00:29:27] No, cow's milk has Watson it, right Ryan Callister eat sugar. Yeah, it's important. You know the baby don't you know, so so to look at Bay the baby food and say well that's the ideal diet for the adult for that species know is the ideal diet exactly is the ideal diet to do what we need to do at the time which for the baby is, too.
[00:29:55] And and it's incredible if you really look into the research Carla's [00:30:00] fascinating to me because even with if you if you really delve deep you can find differences between you know, the the first day of milk the second day is not the third day smoke and so forth and this tackle all the colostrum contributions disappeared within four days or five days that and it's like so so, you know, what, is it about those days and I should we as adults I mean.
[00:30:24] I have a lot of friends in the vegan Community, especially who are like I will never touch Dairy because Dairy, you know contains close fat, you know things that stimulate igf-1 and this and that and you know, I'm not saying that I agree with that a hundred percent, but they have a point in that.
[00:30:44] When you look at what is in Dairy, it's supposed to be to grow the very rapidly growing and changing and still developing if you think about it, you know, I mean coming out of the birth canal. [00:31:00] Yes, it is a legal transition from being a fetus to a to a baby and obviously you you know, we go from a state of total dependence on the mother.
[00:31:13] For all, you know circulating nutrition to getting most of our nutrition from the mother. Throughout you know naturally, you know before there were instances, you know, just from breast milk or the baby would die, right? So it's a transition. And yet so it's still want to start talking about going through those stages.
[00:31:41] Yeah, exactly. It's a train station. It's like those first few days or weeks are really. You can't look at that and say that that has anything to do with what me a Now 50 fucking true old postmenopausal woman should be [00:32:00] consuming to be most healthy in this world. So that that let's put a nice final point.
[00:32:04] I so I want to take a break and when we come back, I want to get focused on new CI want to get focused on what they've done what you feel like they've done wrong. And really I kind of feel like yeah because they set out to prove an agenda not search for real science in my humble opinion. But let's do this.
[00:32:25] Your website is carb sanity dot blog spot.com people can go there and read really very thorough write-ups about nutrition and we're going to be right back with more superhuman radio and Evelyn kosher stay. What the. Oh, man, I can't believe this happened call log. I gotta stop the tape. This is the problem.
[00:32:53] This was what this was the I welcome back to supremum radio. Those you listening live. There is no welcome back. We didn't want to spot because [00:33:00] there's something going on. I have to restart the computer. I'm sure I so tell me about new Sykes. You explained how Noose I got their funding a couple minutes ago, and and that sort of thing Gary tabs is at the helm but there's other people involved with new science or some other names on their website Yeah.
[00:33:19] So basically new see was founded by Lucy Lucy Gary calves. Yeah that they insist that it's pronounced new seeds Okay, so I'm assuming that they want you to use the seee. I think that this is a new way of looking at nutrition. All right, that's my my take on that. But the other co-founder was dr.
[00:33:39] Peter a TIA so he came on the scene around late 2011 early 2012 his blog at the time of called war on insulin.com so that she kind of tell you a little bit of something but I mean, I can't really quite figure out where that whole thing went, but they [00:34:00] managed to get this money. So they got some seed money in 2012 to set up offices and hire a whole staff, etc.
[00:34:10] Etc. And in 2013, they announced the first of three studies that were going to essentially. Set the ball rolling on solving the Obesity situation within 10 to 15 years and how long ago did this organization new see start so they started in 2012 and in 2013 is when they started to get the ball rolling on on studies.
[00:34:35] All in all and we can kind of do this as a post-mortem because now here in 2019 we have now seen the last of in January the last publication of the fourth study, but originally there were three so they had. 3:30 is one was spearheaded by Kevin Hall PhD who is from the NIH and [00:35:00] the diabetes section of that.
[00:35:02] He's done a lot of metabolic work. He's famous for kind of that Biggest Loser study and so forth. Okay, so, you know, I'm just going to read you one thing from a graphic from from new see it says. This is what they're going to do and it's a little graphic of the map of the United States and says the best scientist from all corners of the country working as a team asking the biggest questions the riskiest questions the questions that yet have yet to be asked it's never been done before until now.
[00:35:38] This is what news he said in 2012 All right, so then they took these. Millions of dollars and they said okay, we're going to fund these three initial studies. And the first one was Kevin halls. I think that was about five million and his was going to be a metabolic word study. It turned out to be 17 subjects for weeks [00:36:00] that they.
[00:36:02] put people from a standard diet to a ketogenic diet and the results were published in 2016. And guess what? No differences in the metabolic rate and all that blah blah blah. And if anything there was a little bit more fat oxidation in the high card group or you know, the previously before they switch to the right the ketogenic diet.
[00:36:27] All right, that that had to be that had to be disheartening five million dollars that they were wrong so and and tabs and tubs went after him and. He ended up having to apologize to him because he went to one of these low-carb conferences and basically this this man as you know, someone who was you know, he just had an old he was the youngest of all of the investigators.
[00:36:53] So he had time on his hands to lead the the this was this was a huge collaboration came [00:37:00] home. Was the lead investigator but this involved investigators at Pennington libel. I don't know if you recognize that name. He did metabolic word studies. I would want to say back in the 90s. I'm going to maybe make a jerk out of myself by getting the dates wrong, but years ago, he did like some of the quintessential metabolic Ward studies where they varied they kept people away stable and varied.
[00:37:28] The macro nutrients from like 15% carb to 85% carb and you know vice versa with the fat and they you know song No differences. So we're talking they really did to get the best of the best from around the country to work together and they were touting this as these these Supreme scientists and you know what their independent because we know that some of them don't agree with out and then when the results came down.
[00:37:58] And they didn't agree with them. [00:38:00] They tried to trash them that that's horrible. You know, what so that that shows right there that they have they have a bias that they're only interested in work that supports their position. Actually not the truth. They're not interested in the truth at all.
[00:38:13] exactly and and and in essence at some point Hall and the rest of them severed their their. With new see because Newton was supposed to only just fund they weren't so sad. I mean one of the big things about nutrition researcher, right? So somebody finds a study and they say, oh, well, you know if it shows or eating almonds is good for your health.
[00:38:37] And so while the Almond industry funded us study, right? Right, and I agree, you know, we should be very very skeptical that the Almond industry funded that study. We should be skeptical right here is the low a low-carb agenda-driven group is funding studies and getting pissed off when those studies don't support exact their agenda [00:39:00] and they're and they're saying that you know, it's their their fault when they identify this as this is the people who want to give their money to.
[00:39:10] It's really crazy 2016. I mean it was at this point. The writing was on the wall. Atia had already walked away from New see by the time that this study was was with three-quarters of a million dollars in salary. I might add in his last year walked away from you see with no Fanfare. Nobody asks any questions.
[00:39:33] Nobody was allowed to ask any questions and. When this study came out. out Gary's houses all over the place trashing Kevin Hall. Very sad, very very sad. Very sad and for me, it's kind of like a weird. I have a weird relationship non Willie. I never knew Kevin Hall, but when I [00:40:00] first started blogging I.
[00:40:03] A little nitpicky thing in the my basic claim to fame is that in good carries calories bad calories. Gary taubes was talking about this molecule called glycerol 3-phosphate and this is a molecule that is required to convert free fatty acids to triglycerides within the fat tissue and Gary cows like oh.
[00:40:33] You need carbohydrate to make this thing therefore without it. You cannot fix fat in the fat tissue. So this was his original. His original argument argument, right? And I looked into his original reference was like a 1970 textbook 19 late late 60s, or I think [00:41:00] early seventies. I want to say 72. And I found we're right in there.
[00:41:03] It said you don't need that because there's always enough course 1 2 3 4 Etc. There's always enough ability to make it and what I learned at the time. Was that Kevin Hall and his his colleague at NIH Carson Show. They had basically confronted tabs at a conference and told him the exact same thing.
[00:41:30] That there's always enough but he didn't want but I don't want to hear that. So you ignored it. All right, so he not only did he ignore it. You don't always know what I find really playing this guy who's always saying, he's a young the biophysicist every single time Yong Yong Yong. He's younger than you and I am but he's not that young and he's not like in diapers or anything.
[00:41:52] You know, this is a an established scientists whose you know, in a high position at the NIH what you're saying is the towels [00:42:00] was referring to him as a young bio Sciences because he was trying to say look, you know, this kid doesn't know what he's doing it again exactly, you know, and even and even after his own study that that new thing funded and.
[00:42:13] Call with the the director of that study. There are many many other esteemed researchers in that but he said oh, well, he was the only headed that because he was the youngest one with enough energy to you know have and free time on his hands basically to do that study. Oh my God, so they are not really try to diminish his ability to exactly stuff.
[00:42:41] Yeah, I mean it's infuriating. You know, I've you can hear it in my voice I get so upset because it's just like, how can you even. Do that to somebody you you're just goes to show there's anything about Gary Thomas. He's actually been on my show many years ago, maybe 9 years ago. He was on the show.
[00:42:58] And you know, I treated him [00:43:00] very cordially and is information back at that point was very very interesting and because I've kind of gravitated to a low carb lifestyle, but when I say low carb, I eat a lot of vegetables, I mean bubbly high protein High plant-based guy. That's that's what I would call myself so.
[00:43:17] I found his information interesting. I wanted to believe that there was a match Magic nutrient, you know formula. I wanted to believe that there was a magic macronutrient out there that have eight more of that no matter how much I ate. I would stay lean. I think Jimmy Moore wanted to believe that too poor guy feel but no no no.
[00:43:39] No, I feel bad. You know, I've often thought of reaching out to Jimmy and. You don't have to let anybody know. Let me help you. I'll help you get lean. I'll help you get muscular. You could stick to the diet you're sticking to it because you were the one thing that tabs doesn't adjust for the one thing that nobody adjusts for is activity.
[00:43:59] You [00:44:00] know, I've heard arguments about all well. Well, you know, we eat more sugar now than we did in the 20s and we're fatter than well. You know, what we were we were more active in the 20s. We walked everywhere. We didn't have you know, you you walked everywhere you if you didn't own a car, you most people were laborers in one shape or form of another that so, you know when they talk about.
[00:44:24] The French paradox, they forget that the French walk to and from the restaurant and we already know that walking after a meal postprandial actually just blood sugar and does different things with nutrients. So that the people you know, how can I interrupt you down quick second because you just use the magic word you said activity you didn't say exercise.
[00:44:46] Exercise and I am is not is not a replacement for and training for one hour doesn't get it done. Yes, and it's not just but it's not just so much that it's this idea that they've looked at they've done all these studies with [00:45:00] exercise as a exercise alone doesn't change anything and he's like, well, yeah, that's not the same as being active.
[00:45:08] I mean, you know you and I were talking at the beginning about you know, trying to live on one leg. It was a huge adjustment for me to be sitting on my butt all the time because you know, I'm not going to stand around on one leg, you know, and I have. Developed an increased appreciation over the last year as to what is this means to be able to walk let alone to walk, you know to go home all actually walk around the ball, but you know, I'm never alone but you know how games you know, what that you don't the analogy I come up with whatever people saw talking about exercise versus activity.
[00:45:42] I say if I give you a book, For a college course and then have you take a test. Will you pass of course not because you have to go to school for that. You have to spend the time in the classroom asking questions handing you the book and saying read it. You don't know what's important in that book of what's not [00:46:00] going to the gym for an hour a day is a wonderful thing it is.
[00:46:04] But I wear order ring even with one leg I get 8000 steps a day on one leg. Wow Kung Fu I know but you know what it is. I can't I don't I haven't let the leg slow me down. I've I can't do it the problem today is that people look to diet for? The answers to weight loss and to obesity and activity fixes all of it.
[00:46:29] It fixes insulin. If your theory is insulin, it fixes the mitochondria of your theories. The mitochondria activity is King, but the problem is. To come full circle to something we talked about it earlier in the show that I didn't intend to roll back into but that doesn't that doesn't work for the modern economy, you know telling somebody that working the graveyard shift at FedEx is killing them that doesn't work when they have to send kids to school.
[00:46:55] So what ends up happening is the Industrial Revolution is what caused this [00:47:00] problem the Industrial Revolution where they said you eat in the morning will pay for one meal in the afternoon you eat at night. And and and and and people became compartmentalize instead of being able to roam free work. We do work outside in the fields.
[00:47:15] It's a it that's my humble opinion a bigger problem than sugar being in the diet. Oh, I totally agree. It's crazy and it and I know but I also think that activity. Apart from I mean if we want to really talk about the metabolic aspects of it all and appetite activity is a bigger Factor when we talk about calorie like everybody's like, okay, I mean and I think most people look at me and say, oh she's just all about calories in calories out.
[00:47:48] And if you ask me, you know, do you know to distill it down to that? That's really what it comes down to but I'm I'm not. And all ignoring the [00:48:00] fact that how much we would eat is influenced by everything else. So just the fact I mean when I was, you know laid up with my cast for the first two weeks.
[00:48:14] I basically didn't move except to go to the bathroom, you know, you get bored you eat more so just even walking moving. Getting in getting out, you know, even when I've noticed huge differences when I do the same exact job, but I teach in the classroom versus Teach online. It just makes a difference other than the calories I expend to walk or to do this.
[00:48:44] It's it makes it a difference in your hole You Know. Appetite and everything else. And and this is what I think is more important than whether the food that you eat instigates an [00:49:00] insulin response. I agree and they know it too and I'll tell you what, I mean by that they know it but they don't and here's why all of these experiments with nutrition always start off with engaging a person's energy.
[00:49:15] Well, well their energy and requirement is influence by how active they are. And so it's so like if they would stop focusing on the food side of the equation and start focusing on the ACT. Oh, wait a minute. So you're telling me that activity increases metabolic rate. And and and if you don't eat enough to meet your metabolic rate, you'll lose weight instead.
[00:49:39] They're doing it backwards are going. Well. No, no, let's let's eat less to meet a sluggish lifestyle. No, that's not the answer. The answer is and see nobody wants to hear this because nobody wants to move and and dr. Daniel Lieberman said it best to me on the show when we talked about his book The Story of the human body, which everybody's every doctor should read that [00:50:00] book, but he said look Carl.
[00:50:02] It's we are program to accumulate energy in the way of food and and do things that keep us from burning energy in the way of activity. He said if you have two coconut trees in a hunter-gatherer area, and one of them has an escalator, they're not going to climb the tree anymore. They had to take the escalator up to get the coconut technique because we're programmed to conserve energy and consume energy and that's what so nobody wants to hear.
[00:50:30] Hey fat ass move more and you're going to get lean nobody wants to hear that they wanted here. No, no if you just eat this or you just eat that that's what they want to hear. Exactly. It's really said so talked about we're going to do is do a commercial free show today. So. Talk about a doctor Ludwig's research.
[00:50:48] You wrote most special about that. Yeah, so so, I recently I'm up to five parts on that study for people don't know who would work is he's the guy that you know, sugar [00:51:00] is sugar is poison. It's a what is it? I'm trying to think what he says. Yeah, that's lustig. Oh, I'm sorry Ludwig yesterday big is the the sugar is poison, but Ludwig is the is now the.
[00:51:11] The torchbearer for Gary child's carb insulin hypothesis. So I think it was 2012. He came out with a study where they took I think it was like it was like I think was 23 people and what they did was they cut their their Baseline intake by 60% for 12 weeks and guess what happened? Yeah, that's right.
[00:51:36] Right, right. Sure. Okay. So the lost an average of 13 and a half percent body weight on this diet and then they did a crossover design where they randomly assign them to one of three diets for four weeks. So they did a low. Carb one which was higher in protein than they did a low glycemic index 1 and [00:52:00] then they did a high low fat one.
[00:52:03] So and they did it in random orders and what they came out with at the end of this whole thing was that miraculously somehow the total daily energy expenditure of the low-carb group with some 300 calories greater than the other ones. The other diet the low fat diet, right but they didn't their weight stay the same because what they did was they they they made them they wanted to study people who are reduce weight.
[00:52:35] So they did like a run in Phase where they made them lose weight and then they put them on these maintenance diets. And in that study, they fixed the calories for four weeks on each of these diets and their weight stays like dead stone level. Eliza mean wait, we don't know about the individuals because they don't have that.
[00:52:54] I don't have that data. But and and yet somehow the low carbs had [00:53:00] about burned about 300 calories more day the New York Times and everybody. Oh, you know higher expenditure blah blah blah blah blah and this distinction. And and really the there was a differential between the actual intake because they provided I call this a sum of and a metabolic wart.
[00:53:25] They provided them with all the food. And they had to go to summer but most of their meals they lived in a metabolic Ward or they just sounded well, that's why I called semi metabolic what so they provided all of the meals they ate, I think it was like one meal a day during the during the week at the facility.
[00:53:42] So they had routine monitoring and then they you know, everything else will take home. So it's kind of like you and I know that's no good because you and I know that people under report back what they perceive as bad. But I mean if we can mean we can assume I'm [00:54:00] thinking under that. That thing we can pretty much I think we can assume a little bit of compliance if the weights a stable.
[00:54:08] Would you agree with me on that? Yes. Yes, because it and you're being provided all your Foods, right? So this is like. Carl you're getting Nutrisystem. So you're getting this, you know, you're getting you're going to and not only that you're going to a cafeteria like one day a week for during Monday through Friday and you're having your meals and they are and then you take the rest of it home with you and you're given spatulas to rub it out and tell them, you know, I didn't eat this or I you know, I I screwed up I didn't Apple whatever it is, right, you know, so.
[00:54:43] I mean, it's not perfect but it's better than here's your weight loss plan. Go go forth and Conquer, right? So it's it's a lot better. I will concede that and I would agree with that. I think this is you know, I think all nutritional studies [00:55:00] if they're not feeding studies. Like this should be just get rid of them.
[00:55:04] You need to you need to at least do this much so that you can improve. The compliance so the bottom of the bottom line in this particular study was to to see that if these different eating Styles led to weight loss and they did not they were not actually to be weight maintenance and if those if this telerik.
[00:55:31] expenditure with real. They should have lost weight, right? Okay, so in the original study, it was only four weeks. So we do the calculations that was about a kilogram or two pounds. I can see how that might not be sufficient to see over that time frame, you know, statistically blah blah blah all that, so.
[00:55:53] New she picked up on this in 2012 and they sponsored a different [00:56:00] version of somewhat the same study. So this was the big 12 million dollar expenditure. They got a hundred by a hundred and fifty people was their goal and they would again. Diet them down on the same diet 25% protein. Okay, 25% faster 4045 percent card, whatever it was, you know, the same quote unquote high-carb.
[00:56:29] They. Fix them at 90% of their resting energy expenditure using the Mifflin STG our regression equation. So that's a pretty good equation and it actually held out. Well, if you put in all of the stuff all of the data from that entire experiment it was it was really that that if you want to.
[00:56:53] Estimate how many calories you burn missiles sent you or really held up very well [00:57:00] for for all of these subjects all time points whether they were losing weight maintaining weight Etc. So I think you know if I if there's one thing I'd like to just kind of get out there and sneak in is that anybody who's trying to lose weight go and look up that equation put in your age?
[00:57:21] And you don't need any special test age height weight put it in figure out what you're if you're resting energy expenditure is and go from there. It's a pretty it's a really really decent estimation not going to be perfect for everybody. Good place to start and you know and then and there are apps out there now.
[00:57:39] So we have yeah, we had a sponsor called breezing and they have a little and Ron Penna compared it to a bomb calorimeter at a university in California. He said it was exactly the same but there are units out there that you can get really really like daily weekly whatever you want to do. You can figure out your metabolic rate very quickly.
[00:57:58] So the keep him on [00:58:00] I mean if you are struggling and though the equation doesn't work. I would go get yourself actually measured. Yeah, so that you just know so that you just know yeah weather and your mention that unit one of these days. I got to pin you down and we'll lick of that. I'd be interested in knowing that but.
[00:58:20] You know, it doesn't really cost even all that much to go get that test. It's also kind of funny if you usually most universities that have that do exercise physiology type science stuff. They have a bomb calorimeter somewhere sitting getting dust on it. And if you call whoever is in charge of the lab, they'll usually charge you $10 and you walk in you sit down.
[00:58:45] They put a clip on your nose. You put this mouthpiece in your brief and then the breath test. Yes. Yeah, so I mean I mean, but it but even even the equation itself works pretty good. Yeah, so getting back to the new fees study. So what they did was they [00:59:00] got again, they died and down these people they were supposed to get 12% weight loss, but.
[00:59:05] Wasn't really it was much more various 5.9 to 16. But anyway, Let's ignore that. All right, and so then they randomize them to three groups and they this time they fix the protein which was an improvement over the last study. But then for 20 weeks they fed them these either low fat. Essentially a moderate either a low carb moderate carbs or high carb diet.
[00:59:33] So it was twenty percent 60 percent 20% 40% 60% carp and at the end of the day. The actual results were no difference in resting energy expenditure. No difference in the intake, which should be. You would think they went through all of this. I just [01:00:00] was responding to somebody on Facebook the other day that was growing and dying about how old were they prepared a hundred thousand meals.
[01:00:07] Well, then that should be you know a good. you know indicator that that you should have some confidence in the intake, right? So no difference in intake no difference in Ree. Somehow there's a 300 calorie difference in the total energy expenditure. Do you think that that is the could that be just like some artifacts?
[01:00:31] You know, it's definitely hauling and and growl have done. Well, I hope I'm not totally yeah, that's yeah they have. Publish two responses to the this study showing that first of all, if we use the Baseline data versus the post weight loss data that there's no difference even in that total energy [01:01:00] expenditure whole has has with some colleagues published.
[01:01:06] Some issues with the w label water method and how low carb diets can skew it is that I don't know cause carbohydrates pull water. Yeah, cuz it's yeah, it's yeah, it's a whole because the whole double labeled water method is based on the fact that body water turnover is correlated with energy expenditure.
[01:01:32] Yeah, and if you're going if you're going low carb, you're gonna give up a lot of water just by exactly. So so you have different race of water turn over. So it's like it's like saying, you know, if everybody is consuming kind of the same diet. It's a really good way of assessing energy expenditure.
[01:01:50] It happens to be a pretty good way of. Seeing if people who are in the hospital on total and oral nutrition and so [01:02:00] forth if they are, you know, you know need more calories less calories if it's a good way to look at preemies and so forth. But if you are totally changing the diet like crazy or if you are in sufficient caloric and balance.
[01:02:23] It's really not so good. And I'm even I'm beginning to look at. I mean, I agree with you we've talked about this before humans. Everybody is really bad at reporting of intake and so we do tend to underreport but there are some studies that have you know, that say that you know, so-and-so underreported by you know, 40% and.
[01:02:53] In this study itself. Where they are giving the people food [01:03:00] and they maintain their weight, there are subjects that would be accused of quote-unquote underreporting by at least 40% That's I mean, that's that's a lot. Yeah. I mean, they're the average difference between the intake. and again, I have to repeat I have to stress this because intake.
[01:03:21] Jenny Craig Nutrisystem type style provided meals everything. intake difference average of 500 calories a day. That's a lot for from everybody. Yeah, that's you. Because I calculated using their their own their own formulas. I calculated that during the weight loss phase their calorie deficit was about 950 calories a day.
[01:03:54] Are you still there? Yeah, we drinking water. Sorry. Okay. All right. That's okay. So I calculated [01:04:00] the during the weight loss phase their average calorie deficit with 950 calories a day and the average calorie deficit. From the reported intake and and the te measurements during the maintenance phase 20 weeks with 500 calories a day.
[01:04:17] That's a lot. That's about it's a big difference. Basically, they should have doubled their the weight loss. Right if I lose ten pounds in ten weeks at one deficit. Then I should lose 10 pounds and 20 weeks and half that deficit right absolutely and they maintain the weeks so they have no explanation for this.
[01:04:39] They had these these people wearing accelerometers and all sorts of things. So they they they did not change their activity levels. They didn't change anything else. They you know, they have this intake. So there's you know, what we're left with is just a really big smoke screen [01:05:00] from the new see people.
[01:05:01] Well, no wait time is to prove the insulin. Exactly equal now, didn't you also write a blog that shows that weight loss was was still possible even while insulin resistance was present. Oh, yes in several dozen nothing that doesn't that in and of itself. Let's go so it's not insulin resistance.
[01:05:24] Well, yeah, I mean, this is the funny thing is that you know in the Ludwig's the study they really. Demonstrated for once and for all that insulin resistance has nothing to do with weight loss. They provided three measures of insulin and insulin resistance at Baseline. They measured fasting insulin.
[01:05:49] Controlling excuse me, they administered an oral glucose tolerance test and measure the insulin at 30 minutes. So the you know, the hyper secretor [01:06:00] is right. So the idea that if you secrete too much insulin in response to carbohydrate that that's trapping fat and then the third one is the the Houma IR which is a combination of fasting insulin and blood glucose.
[01:06:16] All right, so that that is your general biomarker for insulin resistance. So they measured all three of those at Baseline for whatever reason they didn't measure those anytime after that interesting. You think they didn't want to know you think they measured it. Oh gee TC that seems to be a very suspicious oversight on their part considering that their whole premise is that insulin resistance equals obesity.
[01:06:52] You would think that they would track insulin resistant data throughout every step of the way. They wouldn't [01:07:00] just, you know, you know them on the Army and and Karl Ludwig. Had to defend himself against the fact that they change their final analysis after from the initially they were going to compare the energy expenditures to the Baseline.
[01:07:21] So before the weight loss. and they change that to now they were comparing it to the post weight loss energy expenditure and. Ludwig was adamant. Well, it should be closer to and you know, I would agree. I think that that would be a better Anchor if you allow a long enough time for stabilization before you switch the diet, I would agree,
[01:07:51] you know, I'm not a scientist so I don't I don't, you know pretend to understand. [01:08:00] The scientific method in detail the way these things are done, but it seems to me that if your argument is that insulin resistance equals obesity. Then you would show that as insulin resistance improved fat loss occurred.
[01:08:15] That would be the Hallmark of your study you go. Oh look we proved it. But but to do not track the the insulin resistance. Of these individuals as they went through this this this this analysis. It seems to be suspicious to me and I'll tell you why I say that so, you know, the the the the Army has said that they care about their soldiers and I know people going to call what are you talking about?
[01:08:42] They take brain scan CT scans of enlisted personnel on the way in but they don't take them on the way out to compare to see if there's been any TBI and you'd say and they say well no we care about ourselves. We do brain scans you doom on the way in before they've been bombed then [01:09:00] you don't go on the way out.
[01:09:01] So to me that's what tabs is group did with this Ludwig study. He's like, yeah, we're going to prove this but we're just not going to track it. We're just going to find ways to manipulate the data to make it look like. But we're talking about yeah, so they never looked and saw because everybody and and wouldn't you know, like I think it's the low-carb the low-carb group lost more weight during the initial thing, but that has nothing to do with the low carb diet.
[01:09:28] It had to do with this that fluke of randomization, right but yet uh, so so they really they didn't look at any of that. Information in there and I lost my train of thought there. Well, I'll jump in here just for a second, right? So a lot of times I like to look at hunter-gatherer Nations because we know we're so caught up in science knows everything and we presume to understand what diets we should be eating but when we look at their [01:10:00] existing hunter-gatherer Nations today, that is still studying.
[01:10:04] And Joel green came on my show last year because I was hot on the trail of some interesting information about being in ketosis too long actually shifting mRNA in in both sperm and in ovum because the the. That the the body presumes that the baby is going to be born into a world where there's only these fats available.
[01:10:30] So the body goes, oh, we got to build a different baby now to be prepared for the environment. And so we were talking about that and he talked about a group of hunter-gatherers that have been studied very very well and. I made the supposition and said I would presume to think that the only time hunter-gatherers found themselves in ketosis was during a time of lack of food availability of any kind.
[01:10:55] So we looked at this particular. The the gweat [01:11:00] big we know the green. Oh, I can't think of the name of this hunter-gatherer tribe and and Joel has studied them and he broke down their diet their diet was 60% carbohydrates, but yet they're lean their lean and they don't have obesity. They were have done.
[01:11:14] They don't have diabetes. They regularly, they regularly forage. They they have an Amazon. Honey bees make like literally like walls of honey. It's not like just a little yeah and they rigged they go they eat all the honey they eat and he said their diet is between 40 and 65 percent carbohydrates and and they're not fat and they're not obese.
[01:11:36] They're not diabetic. They don't have insulin resistance. So it's like a what are we talking about here? Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel? Why don't we recognize that without activity diet fails? That's it. I mean, I agree and I think it's more than just activity though. I mean, I think a lot of it does have to do with the combinations because we don't [01:12:00] you know, you know kind of big piggybacking on your availability.
[01:12:06] We don't have times in in historical times where both carb and fat are available at the same time and that we make these concoctions. All right, but at the same time. II could have reject a little bit. I think I'm a little bit younger than you but not by much and I grew up in the 60s and you know, we have fruit loops and they call them sugar Frosted Flakes back then and you know, yeah, I mean I used to my mom was a little bit I guess of a kind of like a Weston a price type person.
[01:12:41] I mean I she used to sprout lentils and things like that, you know, so I was like a little bit more one of those little helmet kids. The Ezekiel bread to bring my natural peanut butter and jelly sandwich is kind of crazy, but you know. [01:13:00] No, yeah, we have the one or two fat kids back then even though my friends were eating fruit rolls and Hostess cupcakes and everything.
[01:13:08] So I think it's more than just and you know, yeah, I think that the activity is a huge part, but it's also more than just, you know, the type of food and nutritional scientists would start including athletes. In their in their studies, you'll see how everything that turned. You know, you take you take a swimmer that's training for the Olympics and they're eating 8,000 calories a day that lean lean lean lean.
[01:13:36] Why because they're active all day long you take. Except football players right but you take you take athletes that are training year-round. They eat five six seven eight thousand calories a day 10,000 cows day and they lean lean lean lean. So this flies in the face of the whole diet equals the answer to me because if that [01:14:00] was the case, he would have finals we have fat athletes.
[01:14:03] You know, yeah and we know and and and and we doing and look at who are the fat quote-unquote athletes. It's the ones who are not really training. Yeah, you know high levels of activity right? I mean, even you know, you can look in the in in the bodybuilding Fitness realm that I have been circulating in and you look at the strength athletes are not.
[01:14:33] Necessarily, you know your ideal. Physique or weight or health? That's a nice. I didn't say bodybuilding cause right away people go drugs, but that's that also is an accurate because bodybuilders real bodybuilders. They are active all day long. They are training in the morning. Sometimes they're doing two-a-days that doing cardio a couple times a day.
[01:14:57] Yeah, but I you know, I'm still you know, [01:15:00] even I'm not I'm just leaving going to take that out of the equation and just say your physique bodybuilder. Is lean and your strength athlete your heavy your powerlifter types are generally some of them are just outright fat well, but there's a but there's a reason for that.
[01:15:18] There's a phenomenon in strength athletes called tissue leverage actually Alters your center of gravity and also because a lot of these athletes wear. They call it gear but they we're lifting suits. They wear, you know lifting shirt. They live as they wear these shirts that are literally like canvas fire hoses.
[01:15:42] And it's like the first time I saw a guy benchpress 800 pounds in a shirt. I said to him his name was Manuel. He was a Cuban guy from Florida. I said well, why didn't you he he unwrapped the bar and he had the bar extended I says, you know, why did you wait [01:16:00] so long to press it? I thought he was going to say, oh I was concentrating.
[01:16:03] He says it takes a long time to pull the bar down with the shirt on I said pull the bar down he goes. Oh, yeah, he goes that that shirt. It compresses me like a sausage. He said so I have to literally pull the bar down to me, but then I have to press it back up. Then the weight is engaged and I've prayed so a lot of them.
[01:16:21] Are overweight because they actually depend on tissue leverage when they get down their belly hits their legs. They come back up fast and things like yeah, but you know focusing on the important thing is that it is that a healthy State probably not probably not I you know, so I mean, I'm just saying, you know, I think that there's that there's.
[01:16:45] A lot of focus on on some of those things in the fitness community and I go back and forth because I mean, I really I have friends and people that I respect and people that I don't respect in all. [01:17:00] Just about every community that that's around and I just for me. Lucy was a massive massive massive failure.
[01:17:12] They took 40 million dollars, which ended up being I think it was cut short to like 20. Yeah. Yeah, whoever whoever gave the money said. Hey, this isn't working. I'm not putting another 20 million. Yeah, I mean and they say something one word, but. You know, they took out that and and in essence, I cannot understand and you know me as a just a citizen of the United States when when somebody has a not-for-profit.
[01:17:44] that spends. You know 2017 data is not out yet, but they spent about thirty one and a half million dollars. Well, they got in about thirty one and a half million dollars through 2016 [01:18:00] and they you know out of that they only go about 18 million in Grants. So where's the rest of the money? So the rest of that money went to you know, salaries and other expenses and salaries.
[01:18:14] I think we're like six million dollars seven million dollars. Maybe they should change the name the name of the group from new see two new scam. Yeah, and I mean, you know even did the last thing they did when the Arnold foundation in 20 and 2014. They have those first three studies. And you know what?
[01:18:34] The worst part is is that they were saying that they were going to communicate these results rapidly and effectively to the community so they can put forth when Hall study came out. They trashed the man when Gardener study came out most people it was a yawn Gardner did a it's called diet fists if you if anybody wants to look up the acronym d ietf [01:19:00] i TS they'll come up with that stuff.
[01:19:02] He took I think it ended up being like a few hundred people did very low carb a few hundred people did very low fat whole food diet for a year. And it was a wash everybody. You know, some people also want to wait some people lost nothing. There was no difference between groups. They did all the stuff with the the insulin and there was no difference.
[01:19:28] That was my point. You know, I ran Scatter Plots for the Ludwig study. They all use the same diet to lose weight. I ran for all of the Baseline insulin measures fasting insulin how much would a no difference well, you know, and and if anything the sit line was level right at the mean average weight loss.
[01:19:55] So what is the what is Gary so it has Gary tabs come forth and [01:20:00] made any comments about this as he said boy, we failed miserably or did he say I got to go back and rethink this whole you know what? He's basically not said anything new sign has not put out anything on their organizational websites or.
[01:20:20] Their Twitter or their social, you know, they're faced with no social media no acknowledgement at any of this and the only person who's been kind of having any of this still is Ludwig and Gary towns will retweet Ludwig stuff and he still doing talks and so forth, but he and he published census book the case against sugar.
[01:20:42] You know and which you know and there have been some very good stuff on DNA has done a is one person that comes to mind who's then, you know, great work countering that that particular thing and and Gary comes [01:21:00] really has not acknowledged anything and as he walked away from Lucy and said there's nothing else to say.
[01:21:09] You really just disappear. You found call if you could profound it at forty million dollar organization. I'm actually thinking about everything and just walked away from it. Yeah, you have nothing to say. I'm in the wrong business. I'd like to I'd like I'd like to be involved in something that I walk away with a few million dollars and I didn't ever actually produce anything.
[01:21:36] Yeah, that would be a pretty good and really pretty much didn't have to do anything. Because missing never really did they didn't buy any equipment. They didn't they they had a apparently at one point 15 full-time employees. I don't know what they did. But all they that their inferior function their entire function with the take money from [01:22:00] the Laura and John Arnold foundation and give it to.
[01:22:04] Scientists insist were the ones who did all of the work for figuring out the study design blah blah blah all that man. Oh man. That's it. This is terrible. This is true it really and it's it's so mind-boggling that this kind of stuff goes on under the radar and it's just like wow millions of dollars millions and you know, like, you know right now they they.
[01:22:33] Finally published this non-alcoholic fatty liver disease study in adolescent boys. It was like a million dollar study. Tim Ferriss went on his blog in 2014 to try to drum up because he was on The Advisory Board of new see and he went up to drum up donations and he promised to match [01:23:00] 50,000 and then some Anonymous reader promised it to me.
[01:23:03] Another hundred and fifty thousand and the whole study ended up having to be funded Again by the Laura and the Arnold foundation and it was 1.2 million, and I'm looking at this study. They spent nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars quote-unquote fundraising in 2014. Holy crap. He spent like three and a half million dollars and Arnold Foundation money to quote unquote fundraise.
[01:23:32] You can't make this stuff up, you know, you know, it's really funny. So I'm at their website right now. They have zero traffic to their website. Maybe they have one or two people a day so you would think that. And and when you go to the website, it's very impressive website, right? It's got this great everything.
[01:23:50] We did it in 2016. This is new by the way from 2015 to 2016, but read the website. It's called [01:24:00] nutrition science. Our goal conclusive evidence in the next decade and then I know you said that 15 years now, they shortened it to the next decade because they've already burned through five years I guess but but interesting enough to have all of these these words that fly at you, you know obesity and and and like in there they're going to solve all these problems and you would think that if they were working on legitimate stuff, they would be some sort of fervor around them.
[01:24:28] There's nobody visiting this website. Nobody. They spent I think they spent a grand total of like a hundred grand on the website. Design, redesign redesigned redesign alone. Oh my gosh in the last sense, since it started what a shame and that money could have actually been used to study exactly something that that that's you know, that's something that I'm going to really drive the point home.
[01:24:51] When I finally publish My article on the the fatty liver disease study because it's like it was a 1 million dollar study. It could have been you [01:25:00] could have spent ten million dollars and actually done a real study. Yeah, that could have. They could have answered your questions instead of this, you know, it's just another one of those, you know, all of the things that they identified in 2012 as the problems same problems with their studies.
[01:25:24] Yeah, exactly. You don't want anyone one of the one of the words that fought one of the lines that flies at you is sugar addictive. And I love when people say that so you have guys out there. I want to think I think it's a David avocado Wolfe one time. He posted my favorite that Sugar Sugar is as addictive as cocaine and I commented on it says people who've never done cocaine because I've done cocaine and trust me cocaine is definitely different than sugar.
[01:25:52] Anybody who thinks that sugar does the same thing to you bring the cocaine does is just stupid. You just stupid and you're showing your stupidity by saying something [01:26:00] like. I made that one. That one is my favorite. I wrote a little ebook called restriction addiction that focused on sugar addiction back in 2014 one of these days.
[01:26:13] I want to get that back out. I'll come back on and talk about my ever get it out of that guy out there. But yes sugar is not addictive. Not not that way. I mean, yeah surgery Foods going to be there just because I want to highlight the difference between dependence and addiction. Okay, exactly.
[01:26:30] Okay. Exactly. Yeah, we know that word around all the time addiction and it's just not its native. There's a profound difference things that are addictive actually also increase bdnf. To rewire the brain to Crave that feeling more and more every time you use it the brain rewires to want it more and more that is addiction dependency is I really like this.
[01:26:55] I really like using it II don't want to stop using it but I can [01:27:00] stop using it if I want to addiction is completely different all addictive drugs opioids nicotine. They are regulate bdnf in the areas of the brain that get the greatest response from them. So. They literally rewire the brain to desire that thing.
[01:27:16] That's that's what addiction and then there's there's a definite difference and yeah sugar is not addicted. It's not not not the same, you know, whatever whatever word you want to use. It's just not there and and that's really. Gary's house is kind of rebranded himself and I wouldn't say rebranded because I think that was always his thing.
[01:27:39] He's basically said if he ever gets cancer, he'll kill himself because because he shouldn't get cancer because he doesn't eat sugar. Good luck. Good luck. And yeah, you know, I mean, I don't know what I wish it on anybody, but but I can't even believe that he would say something as naive. Is that there?
[01:27:59] Is there are [01:28:00] there are a plethora of. Things that can cause cancer aside from feeding them. Once they're there with sugar the lack of shatter doesn't protect you from cancer. Yeah, IE I have a lot of respect for him. But this interview is changed my opinion about him. Really I really didn't pay attention to him to be honest.
[01:28:20] I just thought he was a science writer. He had an instinct and he had some good data and he was interesting. But now if he says that if he says that if I die of Cam if I could catch I'm going to kill myself. Because I don't eat sugar you're an idiot there a lot of things that you could get. Oh my God, I don't even my head's going to explode that's gonna quit.
[01:28:39] I don't even want you know, he really he's I don't know what what. Fuel phone at this point in terms. I think it's I have on my blog I quote from him. He do you do you know who says Roberts was? Yes sure. He passed away. He was on my show. He was the guy that if you had a [01:29:00] certain flavor before you ate you didn't want to eat.
[01:29:02] Yes. We did the Shangri-La diet. So so Gary tabs did an interview with him and. I'm going to try and see if I can get this up here. I'll just paraphrase it but he did an interview with him in early is like January 2008. So this was right after the calories bad calories was was published and he said something along the lines of you know, if the mainstream is able to like push back my my ideas and ignore me then I'm going to end up being some.
[01:29:38] Somewhere that old man muttering in the in the in the corner about how nobody would listen to me see but then that that shows that he's breathing his own ether I call that. Yeah, and I think yes he when I think of that yeah, good. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, you know, but I really think that that kind of.
[01:29:58] Encapsulate [01:30:00] so when you look back at something like that that was you know over 10 years ago before any of all of this exploded. That was you already was kind of thinking that like that. He was so revolutionary and that if everybody doesn't listen to him, you know, but as it as it turns out, it's not just the people didn't listen to him.
[01:30:22] Is that the evidence really never supported his own evidence for his own evidence supporting and now his own evidence 3. For well, three times over the nafld study sort of, you know corresponds to his if you don't look too deeply but three out of the you know, they just say, you know what it's not there and he cannot let it go and Ludwig who is who is.
[01:30:52] Carrying that torch for him right now because he has more gravitas in the scientific Community. He cannot let it [01:31:00] go. He's been going up against people like Kevin Hall and Steve Van Dyne a and he just can't let it go Evelyn. Your website is carb sanity dot blog spot.com people can go there. You've got very insightful blogs or a critical thinker long.
[01:31:18] What's up? I just looked at the clock I said, oh, wow. We went really long. Yeah, that's okay. But but and and you're a critical thinker and also your moderate, you know, you're not a zealot. You're not in fact, you're trying to pull the zealots back in from the extremities into the middle and go look, you know, if you follow.
[01:31:39] Your your requirements for energy you could eat, you know all sugar and still lose weight. It's not that's not the answer. It's not the magic isn't in the macro. In other words. It's it's it's really not and I agree with you there were years ago where I would have disagree with you but unlike tabs I've seen evidence and I can't ignore it.
[01:31:59] I can't [01:32:00] just you know protect my own little fiefdom and go. Oh, no it is that way it is. No you could eat sugar. I lose body fat if your energy requirements are 2,000 calories a day for everything. You do sleep eat fart exercise walk to work all that stuff and you eat 1500 calories of sugar a day.
[01:32:18] You'll lose fat you lose body weight. I mean if that's it and I hate to tell people that because they everybody wants. No there's got to be a magic nutrient or a magic macro out there that if I just eat that I'm going to lose body fat. No move more eat less. Lose weight. That's it. Yeah, I listen.
[01:32:38] Thanks for being on the show. This is a commercial free episode. I don't even have music to take us out. So we're just going to say goodbye say goodbye Evelyn. Hey great. Goodbye everybody. All right, we on again Carl. Talk to you soon. I see everybody tomorrow and I'll have a fully working and functioning show tomorrow.
[01:32:52] Thanks for listening.
{/spoiler}
